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Why you can’t have have morality – or marriage – without natural law

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Recently, ID critic Professor Jason Rosenhouse has written a series of posts on the topic of morality. In two posts (here and here), he defended the view that morality is objective, but in two other posts in reply to Barry Arrington (here and here), he attacked the only theory that provides morality with an objective grounding in a philosophically rigorous manner: natural law theory. To me, that sounds a lot like sawing off the branch that you’re sitting on.

Professor Rosenhouse makes much of the fact that most people, most of the time, manage to agree about moral issues. Now, I’m happy to grant that our agreement about moral issues constitutes good prima facie evidence for the view that morality is indeed objective. However, it would be putting the cart before the horse if we were to simply define the objective content of morality as “those ethical facts which most people agree about, most of the time.” People generally agree about moral matters, precisely because there are certain objective truths which they can readily perceive, and which guide their moral decision-making. For instance, “Virtually everyone understands basic empathy, and understands that it is just wrong to inflict pointless suffering on sentient creatures.”

The next question we need to ask is: what kinds of objective truths guide our moral decision-making? Professor Rosenhouse writes:

There can be objective moral truths even if people don’t realize what they are. Perhaps we can only learn about such truths by observing the doleful consequences of getting it wrong.

Rosenhouse evidently believes that these truths are empirical facts about the good and bad consequences of acting in a certain way, where “good consequences” are those which result in an increase in people’s happiness or level of satisfaction, while “bad consequences” are those which cause suffering. From the foregoing description, it can be seen that Professor Rosenhouse is a utilitarian of sorts.

The fatal flaw in utilitarianism: the case of “Fat Man”

But good consequences alone cannot define morally good actions. To see what’s wrong with utilitarianism, I would invite my readers to consider what New Atheist Sam Harris says about the “Fat Man” ethical dilemma, which the philosopher Judith Jarvis Thompson described as follows:

…[A] trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by putting something very heavy in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you – your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?
(Judith Jarvis Thomson, “Killing, Letting Die, and the Trolley Problem,” The Monist, vol. 59, pp. 204-17, 1976.)

Nearly everyone, if you ask them, says it would be wrong to push the fat man. Dr. Harris would push the fat man onto the track, on the grounds that it leads to better consequences all round: it kills one individual but saves five. I have to say that I cannot understand how anyone could do that. I think Dr. Harris displays a badly formed moral conscience in defending such an action, and I’m sure the vast majority of my readers would agree with me.

Surprisingly, Dr. Harris evinces no qualms about his choice. He appears to believe that if you don’t see things his way, then you’re simply irrational. Rational, enlightened people would evaluate the morality of such an act by looking at the results produced.

But some of my readers may wish to ask: why, exactly, is killing the fat man wrong? An atheist who goes under the pen name of Robephiles identifies the error in Harris’s moral reasoning in an article entitled, Sam Harris and the Moral Failure of Science. Robephiles explains why he considers Harris’ ethical views to be “as dangerous as even the most radical religion.” What’s missing from Dr. Harris’ moral equation is that he doesn’t view human beings as “ends in themselves”:

In one of his speeches Harris mentions the famous “trolley problem.” In one scenario a runaway trolley is on a track and going to run over four people but you can flip a switch and put it on the other track where another person is. In the second scenario you are standing next to a fat man who you can push in front of the trolley to save the four people. In the first case almost everyone says pulling the switch is okay but almost nobody says pushing somebody in front of the trolley is okay. Harris mentions this but doesn’t even have a point. He just says that the two acts are “different” but doesn’t clarify.

If he had bothered to think about it for even a second he would have seen that the first example is collateral damage. There was no malice in the flipping of the switch but it was the act that was necessary to save the four. If the other person was to see the trolley and jump out of the way then their death would not be necessary. In the case of the man being pushed in front of the trolley we are using another human being as a means to an end and that is unacceptable to most of us.

He [Sam Harris] doesn’t see what else is important other than the maximizing of human welfare, so your religious rights don’t matter, your civil rights don’t matter, due process doesn’t matter. Kant claimed that every human being had intrinsic value and an inherent right to be free. Kant thought that it was better to let humans be free to make bad choices than to enslave them in the interest of their well-being. For the last few hundred years civilizations that have lived by these principles have done pretty well.

For Harris, while treating people as “ends in themselves” in everyday life might be a good way to safeguard human well-being in the majority of cases, in the end, overall “human well-being” is the supreme good, and human lives can legitimately be sacrificed to protect this greater good.

That’s how an ant-hive might work. But people aren’t ants; nor are they like cells in the greater body of “society.” Unlike a cell, whose function is wholly subservient to that of the body it belongs to, each individual person has a distinct good of their own, which can be grasped without reference to the good of society. For example, it is good for someone to create beautiful works of art, or make new discoveries, or to love another person, regardless of whether society-as-a-whole benefits from these acts. It is true, of course, that human beings are social animals, who cannot flourish outside of society. However, the point I am making here is that the flourishing of a human individual can be understood without reference to the benefits it may indirectly confer on society.

The merits – and limitations – of Kantian ethics

The Kantian injunction that we should treat other people as ends in themselves, and not merely as means to our ends, has much to commend it. It also explains why it would be wrong to sacrifice an innocent person for the good of society as a whole. To cite an oft-cited example: we all know that it would be utterly wrong for a town sheriff to hang a man whom he knew to be innocent, in order to prevent riots and acts of mob violence that would ensue if the man were not hanged.

Brilliant as Kant’s moral insight is, his ethical theory suffers from one severe limitation: it fails to specify what kinds of activities define human goodness. To be sure, Kant has his own method for distinguishing good acts from bad ones: we should ask ourselves what would happen if everyone were to act in the way that we are proposing. For example, if I propose to lie whenever it is convenient for me to do so, Kant would say that I should first consider what would happen if everyone were to do the same. The result would be disastrous: nobody would know whom they could really trust. Since the precept that I should lie when it suits me cannot be generalized, we may conclude that it is a morally bad one. Kant’s procedure possesses the merit of being utterly impartial; however, it fails to address the deeper question: what makes a consequence good or bad? In order to answer this question, we need to know what makes people tick. We need to fully understand the human animal. In other words, we need to study human biology and human psychology, before we can define human morality.

Aristotle and the natural law theorists who followed him grasped this vital point. “Good” and “bad” cannot be objectively defined without reference to human nature. Professor Rosenhouse evidently thinks that increasing people’s level of satisfaction is a good thing, objectively speaking, while causing suffering is a bad thing. Such a definition is obviously flawed: taking drugs may cause intense feelings of euphoria on the part of the drug user, but we rightly view it as a harmful activity when we consider the physical and neurological damage it causes. Likewise, when a surgeon performs a life-saving operation, s/he may well have to cause suffering, for the long-term benefit of the patient. In such a case, we would all regard the surgeon’s action as a good one.

The conclusion we have reached, then, is that if we want to define what is objectively good or bad for people, we need to understand human nature. In this essay, however, I want to go further, and tease out a subtle ethical point which is often overlooked in contemporary discussions of morality. The position that I wish to argue for is that no human action can be called good or bad in an objective sense, unless it is good for human beings as human beings. I’m not saying that something has to be beneficial for each and every human being, or even for a given percentage of human beings (say, 80%), before it can be deemed “good.” Rather, what I’m saying is that the proposed action has to be the kind of action which we can grasp as beneficial from a proper understanding of human nature, before we can call it “good.”

Different strokes for different folks?

Now, some readers may be inclined to cavil at this point. They may cite the lyrics of the 1980s TV sitcom, Different Strokes:

Now, the world don’t move to the beat of just one drum,
What might be right for you, may not be right for some.

Or they may prefer to quote the pithy Roman adage: “One man’s meat is another man’s poison.”

However, neither of these maxims withstands critical scrutiny. The thinking that lies behind them appears to be that people come in different types, and that what’s good for one type of person may actually be bad for another type of person. Thus for extroverts, socializing is an energizing experience which benefits them; whereas for introverts, it’s a draining experience, which they tend to avoid. And when people invoke the Different Strokes maxim in the field of sexual ethics, they may argue that whereas marriage between a man and a woman is an arrangement that benefits heterosexual human beings, it may actually harm other people, who would benefit from an alternative arrangement: same-sex marriage. Professor Rosenhouse is evidently of this view.

Before I address the issue of same-sex marriage, I’d like to step back and re-examine the alleged difference between what’s good for an introvert and what’s good for an extrovert. First, I’d like to point out that solitary confinement is good for no-one: it actually sends people mad – introverts and extroverts alike. Everybody needs human company at least sometimes. It is also indisputably true that even the most gregarious person needs to be alone sometimes. Where introverts and extroverts differ is not in what is good for them, but in how much of a good thing they can handle.

Rosenhouse believes that marriage itself (and not just heterosexual marriage) is good for some people, but bad for others. He writes:

“For some people, the decision to get married and have children represents a deeply satisfying and fulfilling commitment that immeasurably enriches their lives. But for many others it is a terrible decision, one that causes tremendous pain and misery.”

However, the fact that one person’s decision to marry another person results in pain and misery does not establish that marriage itself is bad for certain people. It may establish that the two people in question should not have gotten married, or that they were not emotionally ready for marriage. And there are some people who never will be emotionally ready for such a commitment. But there is an ocean of difference between saying that a commitment such as marriage is bad for some people, and saying that some people are not (and never will be) ready for such a commitment. In the former case, one is claiming that for certain people, commitments are psychologically toxic: they actually harm the people who enter into them. But in the latter case, what one is asserting is that the commitment itself is inherently good, but that in order to realize this good, a certain level of emotional maturity is required, which certain people lack.

So, are there any bona fide cases where what is good for one type of person is actually bad for another type of person? The two most plausible cases that come to mind relate to allergies and the biological differences between the sexes.

Let’s examine allergies first. An allergy is a hypersensitivity disorder of the immune system. Allergic reactions occur when a person’s immune system reacts to normally harmless substances in the environment. According to recent research, the likelihood of developing allergies is inherited and related to an irregularity in the immune system, but the specific allergen is not. Exposure to allergens, especially in early life, is also an important risk factor for allergy. There are genuine cases, then, where one man’s meat (or seafood) is another man’s poison, but this is due to an abnormality. What we don’t have here is a case where what’s good for one normal individual is bad for another normal individual. (Incidentally, lactose intolerance is not an allergy, since it is caused by the absence of a specific enzyme in the digestive tract.)

What about the differences between the sexes? Unlike allergies, these differences are certainly “normal,” from a biological perspective, and it’s undeniably true that what’s good for women isn’t always good for men – and vice versa. For example, women experience first-hand the risks and benefits of pregnancy and breastfeeding, in ways in which men cannot. Even here, however, what we have is not a case of something being good for men and at the same time bad for women. Rather, what we have here is a case of certain goods that women can realize and that men cannot, and vice versa. Moreover, these goods can turn out to be mutually complementary, when viewed from a child’s-eye perspective. As we’ll see below, children benefit in distinct ways from having a mother and from having a father.

Are gays and lesbians people of a different kind from the rest of us?

The argument that what’s good for gays and lesbians isn’t the same as what’s good for heterosexuals presupposes that gays and lesbians are people of a different kind from the rest of us. However, there are two powerful reasons for rejecting this view. The first reason is an empirical one, relating to the fact that sexual identity during adolescence is not fixed but quite fluid: a significant percentage of individuals who identify as gay or lesbian in early adolescence may come to identify as bisexual or even heterosexual as adults, and (more rarely) vice versa. The second reason is an historical one: until the late nineteenth century, nobody in any culture identified themselves as “gay” or “straight.”

(1) The empirical evidence

The empirical evidence for fluidity in one’s self-described “sexual orientation” is nicely summarized in an article titled, Stability and Change in Sexual Orientation Identity Over a 10-Year Period in Adulthood, by Steven E. Mock and Richard P. Eibach, in Archives of Sexual Behavior, DOI 10.1007/s10508-011-9761-1, published online 17 May 2011.

Does sexual orientation change? Is sexual orientation more fluid for women than it is for men? Given the controversial debate on sexual orientation conversion therapy (Spitzer, 2003), and intriguing recent research on sexual fluidity among sexual minority women (Diamond, 2008), it is surprising how little research there has been on the patterns of stability and change of sexual orientation identity (Le Vay, 2010, Savin-Williams, 2009). The research that has been conducted on this topic shows some consistent themes. First, heterosexuality is by far the predominant sexual orientation identity and least likely to change over time (Kinnish, Strassberg, & Turner, 2005). Second, there is evidence of greater fluidity in women’s than in men’s sexual orientation identity, particularly for sexual minority (i.e. non-heterosexual) women (Diamond, 2008; Dickson, Paul & Herbison, 2003). Third, bisexual identity tends to be less consistently claimed over time than other sexual identities (Kinnish et al., 2005)…

In survey research, reports of heterosexual identity typically range from 90 to 98% (Dickson et al., 2003; Herbenick et al., 2010; Mosher et al., 2005). In a retrospective study of sexual orientation identity among a group of heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual men and women, heterosexuals reported less lifetime change in sexual orientation than sexual minorities did (Kinnish et al., 2005)…. In a 6-year longitudinal study of sexual attraction and behavior from adolescence to early adulthood, Savin-Williams and Ream (2007) found a high degree of stability for opposite-sex attraction and behavior but little consistency for same-sex attraction and behavior. Similarly, in a 5-year study of same- and opposite-sex attraction in a national sample of young adults (Dickson et al., 2003), 95% of opposite-sex attracted men and 84% of opposite-sex attracted women maintained a consistent rating of attraction over 5 years (i.e., no change), but only 65% of the men with same-sex attraction and 40% of the women with same-sex attraction did so. Although these results suggest greater stability for heterosexuality compared to sexual minority orientations, they also suggest sexual orientation identity may be less stable for women than men (Dickson et al., 2003)…

I’m not arguing here that “conversion therapy” works; frankly, I very much doubt that it does. Sexual preferences appear to be fixed by the time people turn 25. But during the adolescent years, there is strong evidence for fluidity – especially among bisexuals and lesbians.

(2) The historical evidence

David Benkof is a Stanford-trained historian whose research has focused on modern Jewish history and the gay and lesbian past. He has written about gay and lesbian history for dozens of LGBT publications, and authored the book (as David Bianco) Gay Essentials: Facts for your Queer Brain (Alyson, 1999). In an article titled, Nobody is ‘born that way,’ gay historians say, in The Daily Caller (19 March 2014), he writes:

Virtually no serious person disputes that in our society, people generally experience their gay or straight orientations as unchosen and unchangeable. But the LGBT community goes further, portraying itself as a naturally arising subset of every human population, with homosexuality being etched into some people’s DNA…

But a surprising group of people doesn’t think that – namely, scholars of gay history and anthropology.

They’re almost all LGBT themselves, and they have decisively shown that gayness is a product of Western society originating about 150 years ago. Using documents and field studies, these intrepid social scientists have examined the evidence of homosexuality in other times and cultures to see how the gay minority fared. But they’ve come up empty. Sure, there’s substantial evidence of both discreet and open same-sex love and sex in pre-modern times. But no society before the 19th century had a gay minority or even discernibly gay-oriented individuals.

Dr. Benkof adds that in times past, there weren’t “straight” people, either: the belief that people are oriented in just one direction is peculiar to Western society. He continues:

Journalists trumpet every biological study that even hints that gayness and straightness might be hard-wired, but they show little interest in the abundant social-science research showing that sexual orientation cannot be innate. The scholars I interviewed for this essay were variously dismayed or appalled by this trend.

Benkof cites two academics who share his views: historian Dr. Martin Duberman, founder of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies, who writes that “no good scientific work establishes that people are born gay or straight,” and cultural anthropologist Dr. Esther Newton (of the University of Michigan) who described one study linking sexual orientation to biological traits as ludicrous: “Any anthropologist who has looked cross-culturally (knows) it’s impossible that that’s true, because sexuality is structured in such different ways in different cultures.”

Dr. Benkof contends that modern-day categories for sexuality don’t correspond well with how people described themselves in times past. He quotes Dr. Duberman: “Were people always either gay or straight? The answer to that is a decided no.” Duberman argues that people in olden times who slept with members of their own gender “haven’t viewed that as something exclusive and therefore something that defines them as a different category of human being.”

Dr. Benkof then proceeds to evaluate the historical evidence from ancient Greece, as well as the contemporary evidence from non-Western cultures:

[S]cholars don’t think the ancient Greeks had a gay minority. Rather, that civilization thought homosexuality was something anyone could enjoy. In addition to a wife, elite men were expected to take a younger male as an apprentice-lover, with prescribed bedroom roles. The system was so different from ours that to describe specific ancient Greeks as gay or straight would show profound disrespect for their experiences… LGBT anthropologists have also found no gay minorities in their studies of cultures around the world. In fact, Dr. Newton noted in an essay that her field has “no essentialist position on sexuality, no notion that people are born with sexual orientations. The evidence, fragmentary as it is, all points the other way.”… Dr. Newton asserted without hesitation that she knows of no non-Western cultural system that divides people into the categories of men who like women; men who like men; women who like men; and women who like women the way ours does….

For the benefit of his readers, Benkof spells out exactly what he and other gay and lesbian historians are claiming:

Gay and lesbian historians aren’t just claiming that before the 19th century nobody was called “gay.” They’re saying nobody was gay (or straight). While various societies had different ways of thinking about and expressing gender, love, and desire, homosexuality was generally something one could do, not something one could be…

(3) Homosexuality in animals – why it’s irrelevant to human beings

“But what about homosexuality in animals?”, some may ask. The New York Times has devoted articles to this issue. In a thought-provoking online post titled, Evolution, animals, and gay behavior (4 April 2010), renowned evolutionary biologist Professor Jerry Coyne (of the University of Chicago) contends that no conclusions about homosexuality in human beings can be drawn from scientific observations of gay behavior in animals. He writes:

Today’s New York Times Magazine has a long article by Jon Mooallem, “Can Animals Be Gay?”, that discusses recent observations of same-sex sexual behavior in animals. It’s a pretty good piece, showing the minefield that is animal research on homosexuality…

Can animal studies really inform work on human homosexuality? I’m not an expert in this area, but Mooallem doesn’t paint an optimistic picture. He shows, and I had guessed this, that “gay” behavior in animals (by this I mean “same-sex” sexual behavior) is a grab-bag of diverse phenomena that don’t support a single evolutionary explanation. Some same-sex behavior, such as the occasional tendency of males to mount other males, could simply be a byproduct of a general tendency for males to copulate with anything moving, which is itself adaptive since sperm is cheap… In other cases same-sex behavior may have evolutionary roots, reflecting specific adaptations… In other cases, like the polymorphous sexuality in bonobo chimps, sexual behavior may have been co-opted into forms of social bonding…

So we shouldn’t hold out a lot of hope that these kinds of studies will shed much illumination on human homosexuality. It may, but I’m not hopeful. For one things, humans have a rich and mercurial culture that is unlike anything seen in animals. Social stigma or conventions can change quite quickly, and this can affect the propensity of same-sex behavior. Was prolific gay behavior in ancient Athens the same thing, biologically, as the behavior of gays in 1930s Chicago? Who knows?

The data at hand already show that same-sex behavior in animals is a mixed bag of heterogeneous stuff, and may not illuminate homosexuality in humans. Most of the researchers described in Mooallem’s article seem to recognize this.

And of course, no matter what the evolutionary roots of homosexual behavior are, those are irrelevant (apologies to Sam Harris here) to how we regard gays. Infanticide is “normal” in some species like lions and langurs, but we condemn it and punish it in humans. What is “natural,” “genetic,” or “adaptive” has little relevance, to me at least, to the question of what is right.

Professor Coyne concedes that “there are indications that there is some genetic basis in some people” for gay behavior, but adds: “That doesn’t mean, however, that all gay behavior stems from ‘gay genes.’ Even if there’s a genetic basis, there is likely a strong interaction with the environment, too, so that one may not be able to impute gay behavior to simply ‘genes’ or ‘environment.'”

To sum up: while there is some evidence that gay behavior has a partial genetic basis, there is no good evidence for the view that gays and lesbians represent a different kind of human being, with a distinct good of their own. The available evidence points the other way. Sexual identity is fluid (at least during adolescence), and until a few decades ago, gays and lesbians have never defined themselves as a distinct “type” of human being, with a separate good of their own.

What makes sex objectively good?

Let’s now return to the morality of sex. Judging from his posts on morality and marriage, Professor Rosenhouse evidently views sex as something which is objectively good, for the majority of people. Fine; but what makes it so? If I were to ask a drug-user why they regarded their drug of preference as good, it would not do at all if they were to answer: “Because it gives me pleasure.” That certainly makes it subjectively good, but it does not make it good in any objective sense. Nor would it help if the drug-user were to point out that they partake of their favorite drug with a fellow-user, and that the shared ritual of imbibing the drug is a mutually pleasurable one. Even a shared, inter-subjective pleasure may or may not be objectively good. Only if the drug in question could be shown to enhance human health (e.g. by prolonging human life, or reducing the incidence of some disease) in some publicly identifiable manner could we make a good case that it was objectively beneficial. Likewise, before we can describe sexual pleasure as objectively good, we need to demonstrate that it is somehow conducive to human thriving, in a publicly verifiable way. We need to show that for the individuals who engage in sex, the activity itself promotes their biological and psychological flourishing, or promotes human flourishing in a way in which we can all recognize.

Sex between a man and a woman confers one benefit which is indisputable: the generation of new human beings. Only a confirmed misanthrope would deny that the birth of a newborn baby is a good thing, considered in itself. (Of course, that doesn’t make procreation prudent – let alone obligatory – for every couple, here and now. “Prudent” and “good” are two different concepts.) We also observe that married couples tend to flourish on an inter-personal level from engaging in conjugal relations: it helps them grow closer together, and it strengthens their marital bond. And marriage, too, is surely a good thing in itself: it is the most intimate human bond there is, between consenting adults. (And as I argued earlier, the fact that some people are emotionally unready for marriage in no way detracts from its essential goodness.) Since sex plays a vital role in strengthening the marital bond, we may legitimately conclude that even for heterosexual couples who are incapable of procreating, sexual relations are also objectively good, insofar as they are conducive to human flourishing.

At this point, a defender of homosexual rights may propose that we can make the same argument for gay and lesbian couples: the sex that they have strengthens their bond of intimacy, and since intimacy is objectively a good thing, it follows that gay and lesbian sex must therefore be a good thing, objectively speaking. Moreover, it seems churlish to reserve the term “marriage” exclusively for bonds between heterosexual couples. Surely, it will be urged, we need to expand our definition of marriage to include any public, life-long bond between two consenting adults, in which sexual relations are understood to occur.

Why not gay marriage?

(a) The logic behind gay marriage is destructive of monogamy

The foregoing argument looks plausible at first sight, but it completely ignores the bisexual community. Let’s consider the case of a bisexual male named Albert, who is passionately in love with a woman named Belinda and a man named Charles. He can’t imagine spending his life without either of them – nor can they imagine spending their lives without him. To simplify matters from a legal perspective, let’s assume that Albert doesn’t want to have children, and that he’s had himself sterilized to prevent that possibility from eventuating. If gays and lesbians are accorded the right to marry whomever they wish, then why shouldn’t bisexuals be given the same right?

Granting bisexuals the right to marry whomever they wish would, in effect, legalize polygamy. And if you’re going to allow it for bisexuals, then it seems legally arbitrary to deny heterosexuals and homosexuals the same right. The logical consequences of granting people the right to marry whomever they wish, regardless of their sexual orientation, would thus be very profound: the abolition of socially sanctioned monogamy. But they are a direct logical entailment of the argument advanced by gays and lesbians in support of gay marriage.

Speaking of monogamy, Professor Rosenhouse would do well to have a look at Hanna Rosin’s article in Slate, titled, The Dirty Little Secret: Most Gay Couples Aren’t Monogamous (June 26, 2013). She writes:

The dirty little secret about gay marriage: Most gay couples are not monogamous… [Atlantic reporter Liza Mundy] tells the story of Dan Savage, who started out wanting to be monogamous until he and his partner had kids, and then they loosened up on that in order to make their union last. “Monogamish” is what he calls his new model. But as Mundy asks, can anyone out there imagine a husband proposing that same deal to his pregnant wife?

…In the fight for marriage equality, the gay rights movement has put forth couples that look like straight ones, together forever, loyal, sharing assets. But what no one wants to talk about is that they don’t necessarily represent the norm… [I]n legalizing gay marriage, we are accepting a form of sanctioned marriage that is not by habit monogamous and that is inventing all kinds of new models of how to accommodate lust and desire in long-term relationships.

I might point out that in liberal Sweden, where Media and Marketing Europe (2002) reported that “at least 6% of Sweden’s 8.8 million population are gay,” only 4521 females were married to another female in Sweden as of July 2013, compared to 3646 males in same-sex marriages. In other words, the vast majority of gays don’t want gay marriage for themselves, even in an “enlightened” country where its legalization is non-controversial.

(b) Marriage: it’s really about procreation

But by far the best case against gay marriage that I have ever seen was actually penned by a gay man, Paul Rosnick (a pseudonym), in an article titled, I’m Gay, And I Oppose Same-Sex Marriage (The Federalist, 28 April 2015). Rosnick’s argument is succinct and gets straight to the point. In a world where there were no children, there would be no need for a socially regulated institution called marriage. (If astronauts found alien life on a distant planet which reproduced asexually, you can safely bet there wouldn’t be anything like marriage on that planet.) And although it is true that not all marriages produce children, nevertheless children are the fundamental reason why the institution of marriage exists:

People have forgotten that the defining feature of marriage, the thing that makes marriage marriage, is the sexual complementarity of the people involved. Marriage is often correctly viewed as an institution deeply rooted in religious tradition. But people sometimes forget that marriage is also based in science. When a heterosexual couple has sex, a biological reaction can occur that results in a new human life.

Government got into the marriage business to ensure that these new lives are created in a responsible manner. This capacity for creating new life is what makes marriage special. No matter how much we try, same-sex couples will never be able to create a new life. If you find that level of inequality offensive, take it up with Mother Nature….

Same-sex relationships not only lack the ability to create children, but I believe they are also suboptimal environments for raising children. On a personal level, this was an agonizing realization for me to come to. I have always wanted to be a father. I would give just about anything for the chance to have kids. But the first rule of fatherhood is that a good dad will put the needs of his children before his own—and every child needs a mom and a dad. Period. I could never forgive myself for ripping a child away from his mother so I could selfishly live out my dreams.

Same-sex relationships, by design, require children to be removed from one or more of their biological parents and raised absent a father or mother. This hardly seems fair.

Do children do better with a mother and a father?

But is it really true, as Posnick contends, that children go better when raised by a mother and a father? The best scientific evidence currently available says yes. On this point, I’d like to quote from an article by Michael Cook at www.mercatornet.com, titled, The “no difference” theory is dead (February 9, 2015):

Fresh research has just tossed a grenade into the incendiary issue of same-sex parenting. Writing in the British Journal of Education, Society & Behavioural Science, a peer-reviewed journal, American sociologist Paul Sullins concludes that children’s “Emotional problems [are] over twice as prevalent for children with same-sex parents than for children with opposite-sex parents”.

He says confidently: “it is no longer accurate to claim that no study has found children in same-sex families to be disadvantaged relative to those in opposite-sex families.”

This defiant rebuttal of the “no difference” hypothesis is sure to stir up a hornet’s next as the Supreme Court prepares to trawl through arguments for and against same-sex marriage. It will be impossible for critics to ignore it, as it is based on more data than any previous study — 512 children with same-sex parents drawn from the US National Health Interview Survey. The emotional problems included misbehaviour, worrying, depression, poor relationships with peers and inability to concentrate.

After crunching the numbers, Sullins found opposite-sex parents provided a better environment. “Biological parentage uniquely and powerfully distinguishes child outcomes between children with opposite-sex parents and those with same-sex parents,” he writes…

Until recently nearly all studies of same-sex parenting were very small. In a survey of 49 studies in 2010, one researcher found that their mean sample size was only 39 children. Only four of these were random samples; the others had been selected by contacting gay and lesbian groups. An ambitious 2012 study by Mark Regnerus, of the University of Texas at Austin, identified only 39 young adults who had lived with a same-sex couple for more than three years out of 2,988 cases.

For researchers, it’s a conundrum. The number of children being raised by same-sex couples is so small – 0.005 percent of American households with children — that capturing them in a random sample is like finding a needle in a haystack. So the figure of 512 children, while still relatively small, makes Sullins’s study a major contribution.

Sullins examines whether other factors could explain the difference in emotional welfare. According to his analysis, none of them does.

Reviewer John Londregan summarizes the limitations of previous studies of gay parenting in an article titled, Same-Sex Parenting: Unpacking the Social Science, in Public Discourse (February 24, 2015):

[Researcher Loren] Marks reviews an extensive literature on the topic and finds that most of the studies on the subject rely on “convenience samples”: groups of respondents that cannot be considered cross-sections of the population at large. ..

Marks also notes that many of the small studies either fail to identify a comparison group of heterosexual parents, or they compare educated and affluent lesbian couples to single heterosexual parents. He suggests that better comparison groups might consist of married heterosexual parents or of all heterosexual parents…

Objections from three Supreme Court justices: Kennedy, Kagan and Ginsburg

Three Supreme Court justices have put forward arguments in relation to gay marriage which rest on faulty logic, in my opinion.

Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy is fond of invoking the term “dignity” in his court decisions, and he has recently used the term during oral arguments at the Supreme Court on gay marriage. This strikes me as philosophically unsound, for two reasons. First, dignity attaches to people, not to their choices or actions. Gay people (like heterosexuals) have dignity; gay marriages do not and cannot. Second, as Jeffrey Rosen points out in a thoughtfully argued <piece in the Atlantic (April 2015), “dignity” is a very slippery concept:

If dignity is defined so elastically, then conservatives judges might invoke it to strike down not only gun-control laws, but also other progressive legislation. Libertarian groups invoked the “sweet-mystery-of-life” my language in Casey to argue that the Obamacare healthcare mandate unconstitutionally violated the dignity and autonomy of Americans by forcing them to buy health insurance. In the future, cigarette smokers might argue that anti-smoking bans violate their ability to create an individual identity. And conservative Christian wedding photographers could claim that anti-discrimination laws compelling them to photograph gay weddings violate their dignity and ability to define themselves as conservative Christians. What courts would do when confronted with the clashing dignitary rights of the religious wedding photographer and the gay couple, or the hunter and the victim of gun violence, is anyone’s guess, because dignity is such an abstract concept that its boundaries are difficult to discern.

Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan derides the traditional view that the social purpose of marriage is procreation. Back in 2013, she acidly observed during oral argument during the Proposition 8 case that there is no age limit on marriage — a limit that would be expected if marriage were really all about procreation.

Justice Kagan’s objection is a facile one. First of all, there is a lower age limit on marriage, and historically speaking, the main reason for that limit is that children and teenagers are not biologically, emotionally and financially ready to take on the responsibilities of parenthood. Second, a marriage doesn’t end when babies are born: they also need to be raised for the next twenty-or-so years. After that, parents usually become grandparents as their children grow up, get married and have children of their own. There are thus very strong social reasons why a married couple needs to remain together for the rest of their lives, if they are to properly meet their children’s needs and fulfill social expectations. But if two people can still be married, no matter how old they are, then it would be legally arbitrary to deny two people the right to get married, no matter how old they are.

Another argument in defense of gay marriage was recently put forward by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who turned the tables on the conservative claim that marriage has traditionally defined as a life-long union between a man and a woman by pointing out that historically, it has also been defined as a patriarchal institution as well, in which men controlled the lives of the women they were married to. Here’s what Ginsburg was reported as saying in an article by Ian Millhiser at Think Progress, titled, Justice Ginsburg Eviscerates The Case Against Marriage Equality In Just Five Sentences (April 29, 2015):

[Same-sex couples] wouldn’t be asking for this relief if the law of marriage was what it was a millennium ago. I mean, it wasn’t possible. Same-sex unions would not have opted into the pattern of marriage, which was a relationship, a dominant and a subordinate relationship. Yes, it was marriage between a man and a woman, but the man decided where the couple would be domiciled; it was her obligation to follow him.

There was a change in the institution of marriage to make it egalitarian when it wasn’t egalitarian. And same-sex unions wouldn’t — wouldn’t fit into what marriage was once.

However, Ginsburg’s argument is factually wrong. To be sure, there have been many societies which accorded husbands the dominant say in a marriage, but patriarchy is by no means a cultural universal. There are societies in which marriage is matriarchal, not patriarchal. In a 1955 article in Man, anthropologist Edmund Leach asserted that no one definition of marriage applied to all cultures. Leach put forward a list of ten rights associated with marriage, including sexual monopoly and rights with respect to children, with specific rights differing across cultures. These rights, according to Leach, included the following:

“To establish a legal father of a woman’s children.
To establish a legal mother of a man’s children.
To give the husband a monopoly in the wife’s sexuality.
To give the wife a monopoly in the husband’s sexuality.
To give the husband partial or monopolistic rights to the wife’s domestic and other labour services.
To give the wife partial or monopolistic rights to the husband’s domestic and other labour services.
To give the husband partial or total control over property belonging or potentially accruing to the wife.
To give the wife partial or total control over property belonging or potentially accruing to the husband.
To establish a joint fund of property – a partnership – for the benefit of the children of the marriage.
To establish a socially significant ‘relationship of affinity’ between the husband and his wife’s brothers.”
(Leach, Edmund. “Polyandry, Inheritance and the Definition of Marriage”. Man 55 (12): 183, December 1955.)

Even if it were true that all societies are patriarchal, marriage itself is not defined in that way: my Concise Oxford dictionary (Clarendon Press, 1990) simply defines it as “the legal union of a man and a woman in order to live together, and often to have children.” No mention of patriarchy there.

Finally, Justice Ginsburg’s contention that traditional marriage is inherently patriarchal is at odds with the words of St. Paul, who declared that in a marriage, each spouse has authority over the other spouse’s body: “A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband; and similarly, a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather, his wife” (1 Corinthians 7:4). That sounds pretty egalitarian to me.

Conclusion

I conclude that (a) the arguments put forward in defense of gay marriage rest on a flawed understanding of human nature and of the notion of objective good, and (b) a defense of the goodness of marriage requires a solid foundation in natural law. Without natural law, it is impossible to make meaningful moral arguments regarding marriage.

Recommended Reading

Modern Moral Philosophy by Elizabeth Anscombe.
A probing, thought-provoking critique of utilitarianism.

Sexual and Marital Ethics by the MIT Anscombe Society. A collection of easy-to-read, scholarly articles on the purpose of sex and the meaning of marriage.

Sex and Consequences by Professor Peter Wood.
An anthropologist vindicates the traditional family.

The Meaning of Marriage by Zenit International News Agency.
A new collection of essays from across the academic disciplines argues that marriage need not be defended solely through appeals to religious authority or tradition.

Contraception and a Woman’s Self-Image by Jennifer Fulwiler, a former atheist who converted to Catholicism.

Contraception and Chastity by Professor Elizabeth Anscombe.
Roman Catholic thinker Elizabeth Anscombe relfects on the theological implications of contraception and chastity. Writing as a Roman Catholic, Anscombe offers a penetrating moral analysis of marriage and sexuality that will benefit any reader who rejects the secularist reduction of marriage as merely a union that sanctions sexual activity between partners.

Gay Rights: Facts About Homosexuality by Faith Facts. Faith Facts is a Bible-based, para-church ministry not affiliated with any denomination. Its mission is to further the gospel, that more may find a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the blessings of Christian living.

Responding to Pro-Gay Theology by Joe Dallas.
Joe Dallas, founder of Genesis Counseling, is the author of three books on homosexuality: Desires in Conflict, Unforgiven Sins, and A Strong Delusion: Confronting the “Gay Christian” Movement. A former gay rights activist and staff member of a Metropolitan Community Church, he has worked with hundreds of men and women struggling with homosexuality and related problems.

The Condemnation of Homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27 by David E. Malick.

Sex and Consequences by Professor Peter Wood.
An anthropologist vindicates the traditional family. Professor Wood also discusses the social consequences of tolerating homosexuality and of legalizing gay marriage.

Protecting America’s Immune System: The Case Against Same-Sex Marriage by Dr. Frank Turek.

Homosexual Parenting: Is It Time For Change? by the American College of Pediatricians.
Points out the inherent risks of the homosexual lifestyle: violence, substance abuse, shorter lifespan and suicide. Also points out that homosexual unions rarely last longer than three years, and that monogamy is rare, promiscuity rampant.

Appendix: Homosexual behavior in males: nearly as risky as cigarette smoking?

Professor Rosenhouse considers consequences to be what matters most, in making moral decisions. It is strange, then, that he does not follow his own maxim when it comes to the goodness of gay sex.

There have been numerous widely-reported (and false) claims that living a gay lifestyle can take two or more decades off your life. Most of these claims rest on flawed methodology and out-of-date data, and fail to take account of recent improvements in drug treatments for people suffering from HIV. A good summary of the flaws in these claims can be found in an article titled, Fact check: do gays die earlier than smokers? by Andrew Crook (6 September 2012) in The Power Index, an independent Australian publication owned by Crikey.

While these claims are undoubtedly exaggerated, it is probably true that living a gay lifestyle in the United States today can take up to ten years off your life. The evidence can be found in a 2012 CDC report titled, Science of Optimizing HIV Prevention by Jonathan Mermin, MD, MPH, Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. On page 3, the report states that “men who have sex with men (MSM) are >40 times more likely to have HIV than other men.” On page 4, the report points out that “if current trends continue, half of today’s young black MSM will have HIV by age 35,” and “half of all MSM will have HIV by age 50.”

Think about that. Half of all men who have sex with other men will have HIV by the age of 50, and for black men who engage in homosexual behavior, half will have HIV by age 35. Those facts should give anyone pause.

Now it is certainly true that HIV is not the death sentence that it used to be. As Dr. Dennis Sifris, M.D. and James Myhre point out in their recent online article, How Long Can I Live After Getting HIV?, the current outlook for people with HIV is very positive, if infection is detected and treated early (before immune function is compromised), and if they are able to ensure viral suppression by maintaining life-long adherence once therapy started. However, as the article goes on to state, people with HIV still have a higher mortality rate than the general population, due to other risk factors (comorbidities):

Even for people able to maintain full viral suppression, the risk for the development of non-HIV-related comorbidities, such as cancer or heart disease, is far greater that of the general population, and generally develops 10 years earlier than people who don’t have HIV.

So profound are these concerns that, in the developed world, a person living with HIV is far more likely to die prematurely of a comorbid condition than an HIV-related one.

But there’s more. According to the 2013 fact sheet, HIV Among Gay, Bisexual, and Other Men Who Have Sex With Men published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), only a quarter of people suffering from HIV in the United States have adequate levels of viral suppression, leaving three-quarters of HIV sufferers at risk of succumbing to the virus: “Currently, CDC estimates that only 25% of the 1.1 million individuals with HIV have their viral loads adequately suppressed.”

Adherence to antiretroviral therapy (ART) in older adults living with HIV/AIDS by Stephen Karpiak, Ph.D., explains why maintaining adequate viral suppression can be very difficult for many people suffering from HIV:

While the number of people living with HIV/AIDS who survive into their 50s, 60s and beyond is truly a success story, this pattern will only continue if our nation can link HIV-infected persons to adequate care, retain them in treatment and place them on antiretroviral therapy, with the goal of achieving viral suppression (Brooks, Buchacz, Gebo, & Mermin, 2012; Cahill & Valadéz, 2013). Unfortunately, of the almost 1.2 million people infected with HIV in the U.S., only one-fourth achieve viral suppression (see Figure 1). Viral suppression is contingent on adhering to ART regimens ≥ 90 percent of the time. This means that, for many people living with HIV/AIDS, they can skip or miss their HIV medications only once or twice a month. For many persons living with HIV/AIDS, this can be extremely challenging.

And as if that were not bad enough, a large percentage of people suffering from HIV don’t even know that they have the disease. To quote from the CDC fact sheet, HIV Among Gay, Bisexual, and Other Men Who Have Sex With Men:

In this study, the overall percent of gay and bisexual men with HIV who knew of their HIV infection increased from 56% in 2008 to 66% in 2011. Among those infected, 49% of young MSM [men who have sex with men] aged 18 to 24 years knew of their infection, whereas 76% of those aged 40 and over were aware of their HIV infection. Fifty- four percent of black/African American MSM knew of their infection, compared with 63% of Hispanic/Latino MSM and 86% of white MSM. Persons who don’t know they have HIV don’t get medical care and can unknowingly infect others.

It is often believed that lesbians have an almost zero risk of getting HIV. This belief is ill-founded, as shown by a recent report titled, HIV Risk for Lesbians, Bisexuals & Other Women Who Have Sex With Women (June 2009) by the Lesbian AIDS Project (LAP) at Gay Men’s Health Crisis (GMHC):

The vulnerability of lesbians and women who have sex with women (WSW) to HIV infection is a complicated public health issue that is perplexing to some and ignored by many..

With more than 15 years of experience with lesbians and WSW, the Lesbian AIDS Project (LAP) at Gay Men’s Health Crisis (GMHC) knows first hand that there are lesbians and WSW living with HIV. We set about to research the risks lesbians and WSW face in this, the third decade of the HIV epidemic…

This research indicates that some lesbians/WSW engage in high risk behaviors that place them at risk for HIV transmission. Some WSW use injection drugs and may share needles and works. Some WSW have sex, or sexual histories, with HIV-positive men and/or injection drug users. Furthermore, our observations in LAP also suggest that WSW of color in New York City experience a number of environmental adversities that drive risk and confound expectations based solely on their sexual orientation.

…The objective of this paper is not to argue that lesbians/WSW are at the same risk as their heterosexual counterparts, but to acknowledge that there is significant risk of HIV, other STIs, and other health disparities for lesbians…

Lesbians and bisexual women, like their heterosexual counterparts, engage in at-risk sexual and social behaviors that place them at high risk, including but not limited to: unprotected sex with men, an increased number of sexual partners, the use of injection drugs, and exposure to fluids known to transmit HIV i.e. menstrual blood, vaginal secretions. Research from 1992 has shown that while a number of women (81%) believe that safe sex is important, only a few (18.7%) actually practiced it when engaged in sexual activity with other women (Russell et al. 1992). More than a decade later, this continues to be a reality for a many lesbians/WSW.

The CDC has stated that the rate of primary and secondary syphilis among MSM is “more than 46 times that of other men and more than 71 times that of women.” (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, March 10, 2010. “CDC Analysis Provides New Look at Disproportionate Impact of HIV and Syphilis Among U.S. Gay and Bisexual Men.”)

Compare this with the risk of smoking:, which takes about ten years off the life of a long-time smoker, according to the article, Putting a Number on Smoking’s Toll by Anahad O’Connor, in the New York Times Ask Well blog (January 23, 2013).

No responsible government would recommend smoking to its teenagers as a an alternative lifestyle. Yet governments which do not present the gay lifestyle as a valid alternative to high school students are stigmatized as “intolerant.” Does that make sense to any of my readers?

Comments
Sev@32, I am so glad you were able to refine for all of us that I was not harmed, only offended. Phew. On that basis, I would like to remind those who would like to redefine marriage that their "outrage" at perceived harms is nothing more than being offended, too. [ . . . not really anybody's fault for thinking this way (sigh), since"Casey", the "thinking" that supported it (i.e. the "right to creates one's own reality") has obliterated what used to be call a moral landscape.] As for the part concerning harm done to children within marriage (vs. marriage defined by the gay agenda), you have completely missed the point, and I am sorry for that. I will let what we have each written speak for itself.Tim
May 7, 2015
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First, Neo-Darwinism is the theory that that knowledge of how to create copies of organisms, as found in their genome, was created by a process of variation and criticism. As such, nature, as it exists, is due to the growth of that knowledge. It genuinely did not exist before. Nor can we predict the impact of genuinely created knowledge. As such, any such morality based on it would not be objective in the sense that it is unchanging or can be extrapolated from observations. Rather, moral knowledge (the knowledge of how to solve moral problems) is objective in that it is independent of anyone's belief. Second, even if we assume that the supposed problems that VJT appeals to are valid, which I'm not (what about heterosexual couples that cannot conceive?), the fatal flaw in his argument is that it makes the short sighted assumption that human beings will never create the knowledge necessary to become a fundamental force of change so great that any supposed objectivity will have to change significantly because of it. People are universal explainers. That is, we can create explanatory theories about how the world works that are designed to solve problems, which we then criticize. In the case of science, criticism includes empirical tests. People matter in the cosmic sense. For example, there is no law of physics that indicates human beings cannot live to oh, say, 500 years old. As such, the only thing that would prevent us from doing so is not knowing how. IOW, if living to 500 was impossible, regardless of how much knowledge was brought to bear, then that would be itself be due to a discoverable law of physics. No such law is known to exist. And, if it did, it would prevent uncontroversial biological processes that occur. For example, the ability of particular species of salamanders to regrow entire limbs, including bone, muscle, nerves, etc. When this occurs, assuming we decide to create the necessary knowledge to survive, ideas of what is morally correct regarding age differences, marriage, etc. will no longer be sufficient. They will change significantly to the extent that they will no longer be objective, as implied. The same can be said for gender and who we fall in love with. When we create the knowledge of how to genuinely change genders, allow even male same sex couples conceive and cary a child, etc. any such "moral" assumption will no longer apply either. In fact, I would suggest that the vast majority of the "supposed" problems that VTJ appeals to would be solvable, given the right knowledge. Note: I'm not suggesting things will ever be perfect, as new and better problems will take their place, but the problems that VTJ is appealing to are solvable. And when they are solved, any such supposed objective moral rule will cease to be objective. This is why I've said that moral knowledge exists in the context of moral problems. It genuinely grows when we conjecture solutions to solve them, then criticize those solutions. Since we cannot predict the impact of the genuine growth of knowledge, including what kind of moral problems we will encounter, knowledge about future moral problems, which we cannot even conceive of, doesn't even exist yet. Note that this too falls under the umbrella of our current, best explanation for the universal growth of knowledge. So, I'd suggest the OP is parochial (unnecessarily narrow in scope) because it grossly underestimates the role of knowledge.Popperian
May 7, 2015
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Mark Frank @55, I have a preliminary question. Is there any such thing as a stupid or foolish comment?StephenB
May 7, 2015
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#66 SA I think there is some misunderstanding here. For the record I think in Western culture it is usually wrong for someone to be married to two people simultaneously including being married to a man and a woman (I guess there might be extraordinary exceptions). But as VJ also appears to be of that opinion it doesn't seem worth discussing.Mark Frank
May 7, 2015
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MF @ 21
It was VJ in the OP who made the negative judgement that polygamy was wrong – do you disagree?
I wondered about your view on it, but it seems like you don't want to discuss it. It might be easier if you just said that?Silver Asiatic
May 7, 2015
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Zach @ 23. I'll take this rare moment to agree with your insight on that.Silver Asiatic
May 7, 2015
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Mark @ 54 and AS @ 55, consider the following exchange: YM:
Calling something a genetic defect (bad) is totally dependent on perspective.
Barry:
Really? Whether Cystic fibrosis, Down syndrome, Alzheimer’s disease, Hemophilia, Huntington’s disease and Tay-Sachs are bad is totally dependent on perspective? Idiot
YM:
And some of your other examples do not reveal themselves until after reproductive years. So, again, whether or not they are defects (bad) depends on perspective.
YM says something really stupid. I point it out. He doubles down on his stupidity. Yes, I called him an idiot. I agree I should not have done that. It is an insult to idiots. You do have an unintentional point though. I should probably just ignore a lot of the idiocy that gets spewed into the comboxes on these pages. But in a classic example of the triumph of hope over experience, I assume that fools such as YM will respond to correction. I try to shame them into doing better. It pretty much never works, as the YM example above demonstrates. Yet, for some reason I still feel compelled to continue trying.Barry Arrington
May 7, 2015
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Nearly everyone, if you ask them, says it would be wrong to push the fat man. Dr. Harris would push the fat man onto the track, on the grounds that it leads to better consequences all round: it kills one individual but saves five. I have to say that I cannot understand how anyone could do that. I think Dr. Harris displays a badly formed moral conscience in defending such an action, and I’m sure the vast majority of my readers would agree with me.
Can you provide a reference in which Harris actually indicated he would push the fat man onto the tracks? In fact, Harris argues agains a kind of consequentialism that is merely concerned with reducing body counts in at least one video where he discusses the Trolly problem.Popperian
May 7, 2015
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...if opposition to same-sex marriage is as immoral as racism, why did no great moral thinker, in all of history, ever advocate male-male or female-female marriage? Opposition to racism was advocated by every great moral thinker. Moses, for example, married a black woman, the very definition of Catholic is "universal" and therefore diverse and has always included every race, and the equality of human beings of every race was a central tenet of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and other world religions. But no one - not Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Aquinas, Gandhi, not the Bible or the Koran or any other sacred text, nor even a single anti-religious secular thinker of the Enlightenment -- ever advocated redefining marriage to include members of the same sex. To argue that opposition to same-sex marriage is immoral is to argue that every moral thinker, and every religion and social movement in the history of mankind prior to the last 20 years in America and Europe was immoral. About no other issue could this be said. Every moral advance has been rooted in prior moral thinking. The anti-slavery movement was based on the Bible. Martin Luther King, Jr. was first and foremost the "Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr." and he regularly appealed to the moral authority of the scriptures when making his appeals on behalf of racial equality. Same-sex marriage is the only social movement to break entirely with the past, to create a moral ideal never before conceived. It might be right, but it might also be an example of the moral hubris of the present generation, the generation that created the self-esteem movement: After all, you need a lot of self-esteem to hold yourself morally superior to all those who preceded you. - Dennis Prager Why a Good Person Can Vote Against Same-Sex Marriage
[Regarding gay marriage] It all depends on your definition of truth. And about what America’s current fascination with gay marriage says about its ancestors and roots. Because this change in fundamental human definition plays havoc with any concept of absolute truth, and it passes harsh judgment on the peoples, cultures and religions which have gone before. Specifically, it says they all were benighted and hatefully bigoted. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are a sham, the native cultures of Africa, Asia and America were all oppressive and homophobic, and the great men and great minds of yesterday were socially retarded and inferior to us. We are the most enlightened and advanced people of all time. If gay marriage is right. But if it is wrong, if cultures and millennia past had wisdom and insight, then it is we who are benighted, we who have arrogantly abandoned the ways of truth and right. If Moses and Mohammed were prophets, if Jesus was divine, if Martin Luther and John Wesley and John Paul II were inspired, if Albert Schweitzer, Marcus Whitman, Mother Theresa and Billy Graham were servants of God, then we are full of crap. And gay marriage is not liberation, it is licentiousness. Not the new morality, but the old immorality. - Bob Lonsberry When Were We Wrong – Then or Now?
See also from Frank Turek: Same Sex Marriage: Stealing Heresy From God Anyone who opposes same-sex marriage is wrong, says the “gay mafia”—the term the liberal TV personality Bill Maher gave to homosexual activists who “whack” dissenters. ****<<>>**** Natural Marriage is Not Bigotry—It’s Biology What reasons, other than religious reasons, might someone want to keep marriage defined as only the union of one man and one woman? ****<<>>**** Same Sex Marriage: Stealing Rights From God Is same-sex marriage really a “right”? If so, by what standard is it a right? Who said and by what authority?Heartlander
May 7, 2015
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Barry: So you agree with Torely and me. Whether something has a genetic component is irrelevant in the analysis of whether it is good or bad.
Not at all. For me, "acceptable" and "not acceptable" relates to the likely or apparent negative impact an activity has on potential innocent victims. The genetic component is not the only factor to consider with regard to the state's regulation of an activity, whether genetic or not. For alcoholism, the potential negative impact on innocent victims is apparent and should be regulated by the state whether or not there is a genetic component. For gay marriage there is no apparent negative impact on innocent victims and therefore should not be regulated by the state, especially if there is a genetic component.mike1962
May 7, 2015
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Elizabeth:
Once you’ve discovered something is harmful, then we need some kind of system of ethics to figure out what is least harmful, when harm is justified, etc.
How would you know if you have discovered something harmful? What happens if you discover that killing your neighbor gives you pleasure?Joe
May 7, 2015
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Aurellio:
I think we have a moral duty to persuade Barry to better behavior.
Work on your own behaviour first.Joe
May 7, 2015
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PPPS: Maybe, we are now ready to hear Solomon, echoing his father who taught him carefully after failing with a first generation of sons:
Proverbs 1 English Standard Version (ESV) The Beginning of Knowledge 1 The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: 2 To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, 3 to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; 4 to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth— 5 Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, 6 to understand a proverb and a saying, the words of the wise and their riddles. 7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction . . . . 20 Wisdom cries aloud in the street, in the markets she raises her voice; 21 at the head of the noisy streets she cries out; at the entrance of the city gates she speaks: 22 “How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge? 23 If you turn at my reproof,[a] behold, I will pour out my spirit to you; I will make my words known to you. 24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded, 25 because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof, 26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you, 27 when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. 28 Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me. 29 Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord, 30 would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof, 31 therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices. 32 For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them; 33 but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster.” [ESV]
Also, perhaps, we can hear this concerning the naturally evident Creation order regarding marriage, from Jesus:
Matt 19:4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
To this, let us add the how much more principle.kairosfocus
May 7, 2015
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PPS: From A II:
SOCRATES: There are cobblers and carpenters and sculptors and others of all sorts and kinds, whom we need not stop to enumerate. All have their distinct employments and all are workmen, although they are not all of them cobblers or carpenters or sculptors. ALCIBIADES: No, indeed. SOCRATES: And in like manner men differ in regard to want of sense. Those who are most out of their wits we call 'madmen,' while we term those who are less far gone 'stupid' or 'idiotic,' or, if we prefer gentler language, describe them as 'romantic' or 'simple-minded,' or, again, as 'innocent' or 'inexperienced' or 'foolish.' You may even find other names, if you seek for them; but by all of them lack of sense is intended. They only differ as one art appeared to us to differ from another or one disease from another. Or what is your opinion? ALCIBIADES: I agree with you. SOCRATES: Then let us return to the point at which we digressed. We said at first that we should have to consider who were the wise and who the foolish. For we acknowledged that there are these two classes? Did we not? ALCIBIADES: To be sure. SOCRATES: And you regard those as sensible who know what ought to be done or said? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: The senseless are those who do not know this? ALCIBIADES: True. SOCRATES: The latter will say or do what they ought not without their own knowledge? ALCIBIADES: Exactly. SOCRATES: Oedipus, as I was saying, Alcibiades, was a person of this sort. And even now-a-days you will find many who (have offered inauspicious prayers), although, unlike him, they were not in anger nor thought that they were asking evil. He neither sought, nor supposed that he sought for good, but others have had quite the contrary notion. I believe that if the God whom you are about to consult should appear to you, and, in anticipation of your request, enquired whether you would be contented to become tyrant of Athens, and if this seemed in your eyes a small and mean thing, should add to it the dominion of all Hellas; and seeing that even then you would not be satisfied unless you were ruler of the whole of Europe, should promise, not only that, but, if you so desired, should proclaim to all mankind in one and the same day that Alcibiades, son of Cleinias, was tyrant:—in such a case, I imagine, you would depart full of joy, as one who had obtained the greatest of goods. ALCIBIADES: And not only I, Socrates, but any one else who should meet with such luck. SOCRATES: Yet you would not accept the dominion and lordship of all the Hellenes and all the barbarians in exchange for your life? ALCIBIADES: Certainly not: for then what use could I make of them? SOCRATES: And would you accept them if you were likely to use them to a bad and mischievous end? ALCIBIADES: I would not. SOCRATES: You see that it is not safe for a man either rashly to accept whatever is offered him, or himself to request a thing, if he is likely to suffer thereby or immediately to lose his life. And yet we could tell of many who, having long desired and diligently laboured to obtain a tyranny, thinking that thus they would procure an advantage, have nevertheless fallen victims to designing enemies. You must have heard of what happened only the other day, how Archelaus of Macedonia was slain by his beloved (compare Aristotle, Pol.), whose love for the tyranny was not less than that of Archelaus for him. The tyrannicide expected by his crime to become tyrant and afterwards to have a happy life; but when he had held the tyranny three or four days, he was in his turn conspired against and slain. Or look at certain of our own citizens,—and of their actions we have been not hearers, but eyewitnesses,—who have desired to obtain military command: of those who have gained their object, some are even to this day exiles from the city, while others have lost their lives. And even they who seem to have fared best, have not only gone through many perils and terrors during their office, but after their return home they have been beset by informers worse than they once were by their foes, insomuch that several of them have wished that they had remained in a private station rather than have had the glories of command. If, indeed, such perils and terrors were of profit to the commonwealth, there would be reason in undergoing them; but the very contrary is the case. Again, you will find persons who have prayed for offspring, and when their prayers were heard, have fallen into the greatest pains and sufferings. For some have begotten children who were utterly bad, and have therefore passed all their days in misery, while the parents of good children have undergone the misfortune of losing them, and have been so little happier than the others that they would have preferred never to have had children rather than to have had them and lost them. And yet, although these and the like examples are manifest and known of all, it is rare to find any one who has refused what has been offered him, or, if he were likely to gain aught by prayer, has refrained from making his petition. The mass of mankind would not decline to accept a tyranny, or the command of an army, or any of the numerous things which cause more harm than good: but rather, if they had them not, would have prayed to obtain them. And often in a short space of time they change their tone, and wish their old prayers unsaid. Wherefore also I suspect that men are entirely wrong when they blame the gods as the authors of the ills which befall them (compare Republic): 'their own presumption,' or folly (whichever is the right word)— 'Has brought these unmeasured woes upon them.' (Homer. Odyss.) He must have been a wise poet, Alcibiades, who, seeing as I believe, his friends foolishly praying for and doing things which would not really profit them, offered up a common prayer in behalf of them all:— 'King Zeus, grant us good whether prayed for or unsought by us; But that which we ask amiss, do thou avert.' (The author of these lines, which are probably of Pythagorean origin, is unknown. They are found also in the Anthology (Anth. Pal.).) In my opinion, I say, the poet spoke both well and prudently; but if you have anything to say in answer to him, speak out. ALCIBIADES: It is difficult, Socrates, to oppose what has been well said. And I perceive how many are the ills of which ignorance is the cause, since, as would appear, through ignorance we not only do, but what is worse, pray for the greatest evils. No man would imagine that he would do so; he would rather suppose that he was quite capable of praying for what was best: to call down evils seems more like a curse than a prayer. SOCRATES: But perhaps, my good friend, some one who is wiser than either you or I will say that we have no right to blame ignorance thus rashly, unless we can add what ignorance we mean and of what, and also to whom and how it is respectively a good or an evil? . . . . SOCRATES: And there is still another case which will also perhaps appear strange to you, if you will consider it? (The reading is here uncertain.) ALCIBIADES: What is that, Socrates? SOCRATES: It may be, in short, that the possession of all the sciences, if unaccompanied by the knowledge of the best, will more often than not injure the possessor. Consider the matter thus:—Must we not, when we intend either to do or say anything, suppose that we know or ought to know that which we propose so confidently to do or say? ALCIBIADES: Yes, in my opinion. SOCRATES: We may take the orators for an example, who from time to time advise us about war and peace, or the building of walls and the construction of harbours, whether they understand the business in hand, or only think that they do. Whatever the city, in a word, does to another city, or in the management of her own affairs, all happens by the counsel of the orators. ALCIBIADES: True. SOCRATES: But now see what follows, if I can (make it clear to you). (Some words appear to have dropped out here.) You would distinguish the wise from the foolish? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: The many are foolish, the few wise? ALCIBIADES: Certainly. SOCRATES: And you use both the terms, 'wise' and 'foolish,' in reference to something? ALCIBIADES: I do. SOCRATES: Would you call a person wise who can give advice, but does not know whether or when it is better to carry out the advice? ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not. SOCRATES: Nor again, I suppose, a person who knows the art of war, but does not know whether it is better to go to war or for how long? ALCIBIADES: No. SOCRATES: Nor, once more, a person who knows how to kill another or to take away his property or to drive him from his native land, but not when it is better to do so or for whom it is better? ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. SOCRATES: But he who understands anything of the kind and has at the same time the knowledge of the best course of action:—and the best and the useful are surely the same?— ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES:—Such an one, I say, we should call wise and a useful adviser both of himself and of the city. What do you think? ALCIBIADES: I agree. SOCRATES: And if any one knows how to ride or to shoot with the bow or to box or to wrestle, or to engage in any other sort of contest or to do anything whatever which is in the nature of an art,—what do you call him who knows what is best according to that art? Do you not speak of one who knows what is best in riding as a good rider? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: And in a similar way you speak of a good boxer or a good flute-player or a good performer in any other art? ALCIBIADES: True. SOCRATES: But is it necessary that the man who is clever in any of these arts should be wise also in general? Or is there a difference between the clever artist and the wise man? ALCIBIADES: All the difference in the world. SOCRATES: And what sort of a state do you think that would be which was composed of good archers and flute-players and athletes and masters in other arts, and besides them of those others about whom we spoke, who knew how to go to war and how to kill, as well as of orators puffed up with political pride, but in which not one of them all had this knowledge of the best, and there was no one who could tell when it was better to apply any of these arts or in regard to whom? ALCIBIADES: I should call such a state bad, Socrates. SOCRATES: You certainly would when you saw each of them rivalling the other and esteeming that of the greatest importance in the state, 'Wherein he himself most excelled.' (Euripides, Antiope.) —I mean that which was best in any art, while he was entirely ignorant of what was best for himself and for the state, because, as I think, he trusts to opinion which is devoid of intelligence. In such a case should we not be right if we said that the state would be full of anarchy and lawlessness? ALCIBIADES: Decidedly. SOCRATES: But ought we not then, think you, either to fancy that we know or really to know, what we confidently propose to do or say? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: And if a person does that which he knows or supposes that he knows, and the result is beneficial, he will act advantageously both for himself and for the state? ALCIBIADES: True. SOCRATES: And if he do the contrary, both he and the state will suffer? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: Well, and are you of the same mind, as before? ALCIBIADES: I am. SOCRATES: But were you not saying that you would call the many unwise and the few wise? ALCIBIADES: I was. SOCRATES: And have we not come back to our old assertion that the many fail to obtain the best because they trust to opinion which is devoid of intelligence? ALCIBIADES: That is the case. SOCRATES: It is good, then, for the many, if they particularly desire to do that which they know or suppose that they know, neither to know nor to suppose that they know, in cases where if they carry out their ideas in action they will be losers rather than gainers? ALCIBIADES: What you say is very true. SOCRATES: Do you not see that I was really speaking the truth when I affirmed that the possession of any other kind of knowledge was more likely to injure than to benefit the possessor, unless he had also the knowledge of the best? ALCIBIADES: I do now, if I did not before, Socrates. SOCRATES: The state or the soul, therefore, which wishes to have a right existence must hold firmly to this knowledge, just as the sick man clings to the physician, or the passenger depends for safety on the pilot. And if the soul does not set sail until she have obtained this she will be all the safer in the voyage through life. But when she rushes in pursuit of wealth or bodily strength or anything else, not having the knowledge of the best, so much the more is she likely to meet with misfortune. And he who has the love of learning (Or, reading polumatheian, 'abundant learning.'), and is skilful in many arts, and does not possess the knowledge of the best, but is under some other guidance, will make, as he deserves, a sorry voyage:—he will, I believe, hurry through the brief space of human life, pilotless in mid-ocean, and the words will apply to him in which the poet blamed his enemy:— '...Full many a thing he knew; But knew them all badly.' (A fragment from the pseudo-Homeric poem, 'Margites.') ALCIBIADES: How in the world, Socrates, do the words of the poet apply to him? They seem to me to have no bearing on the point whatever. SOCRATES: Quite the contrary, my sweet friend: only the poet is talking in riddles after the fashion of his tribe. For all poetry has by nature an enigmatical character, and it is by no means everybody who can interpret it. And if, moreover, the spirit of poetry happen to seize on a man who is of a begrudging temper and does not care to manifest his wisdom but keeps it to himself as far as he can, it does indeed require an almost superhuman wisdom to discover what the poet would be at. You surely do not suppose that Homer, the wisest and most divine of poets, was unaware of the impossibility of knowing a thing badly: for it was no less a person than he who said of Margites that 'he knew many things, but knew them all badly.' The solution of the riddle is this, I imagine:—By 'badly' Homer meant 'bad' and 'knew' stands for 'to know.' Put the words together;—the metre will suffer, but the poet's meaning is clear;—'Margites knew all these things, but it was bad for him to know them.' And, obviously, if it was bad for him to know so many things, he must have been a good-for-nothing, unless the argument has played us false. ALCIBIADES: But I do not think that it has, Socrates: at least, if the argument is fallacious, it would be difficult for me to find another which I could trust. SOCRATES: And you are right in thinking so. ALCIBIADES: Well, that is my opinion. SOCRATES: But tell me, by Heaven:—you must see now the nature and greatness of the difficulty in which you, like others, have your part. For you change about in all directions, and never come to rest anywhere: what you once most strongly inclined to suppose, you put aside again and quite alter your mind. If the God to whose shrine you are going should appear at this moment, and ask before you made your prayer, 'Whether you would desire to have one of the things which we mentioned at first, or whether he should leave you to make your own request:'—what in either case, think you, would be the best way to take advantage of the opportunity? . . .
And, there is more. In every direction we go, we see Plato, Aristotle and Socrates too, on the way back. With Alcibiades and friends trailing behind. These dialogues have much to teach us yet.kairosfocus
May 7, 2015
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VJT: A carefully researched article, as usual. I would add, let us not overlook the dimension of radical mob-rule factions and ruthless activism, already rising persecution of people of conscience and the general amorality tied to a sort of adolescent, superficial hedonism that now seems to increasingly rule the roost in our civilisation. Warranted, by long understood implications of evolutionary materialism warned against by Plato in The Laws, Bk X:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin")], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse], and not in legal subjection to them.
Alcibiades, is probably as close to what Plato spoke of as is in fairly accessible Classical history. The collapse of Athens across less than 40 years tied to its increasing arrogance, hegemony, corruption by wealth and the rise of utterly ill advised counsels to power are all well worth pondering. The Pseudo-Platonic Dialogues Alcibiades I and II may have a thing or two to say to our civilisation, never mind that they do not have the force granted to Plato's own undisputed works: A I: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1676/1676-h/1676-h.htm A II: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1677/1677-h/1677-h.htm As to marriage and where our civilisation seems headed, I suggest we may find it useful to ponder the thoughts of a Russian-Australian activist, here. I consider that our civilisation, on a very broad basis, seems hell-bent on a march of stubborn folly (having neglected, dismissed or derided all history, counsels and calls to the contrary), and so we are headed for a collision with hard reality as we plunge willfully over a cliff. But in the face of such folly, we have the lesson of Acts 27, that in the storm you need a good man -- often; the very one whose counsel was disregarded ahead of time. And, from a thousand years before that I draw comfort from a shepherd-boy turned general who got sick of dodging javelins thrown at him by a dysfunctional and jealous king, and fled to the Cave of Adullam in the Judaean wilderness. For, to him came the despairing and desperate, who were then forged into the core of what would become the greatest generation in the history of Israel. I see a very hard time ahead, and one that unfortunately is liable to be very costly, especially when I ponder what a few nuke devices can potentially do by way of an EMP attack. Our civilisation has come to reductio, and as usual those who cling to the absurd insist brazenly that all is well. Reality is knocking at the door and begs to differ. The ghosts of Plato, Socrates, Aristotle and even Alcibiades are shaking their heads in warning. KF PS: A snippet from A I on the pivotal issue in all of this attempt to redefine foundational institutions and to advance agendas:
SOCRATES: Well, then, consider and try to explain what is the meaning of 'better,' in the matter of making peace and going to war with those against whom you ought to go to war? To what does the word refer? ALCIBIADES: I am thinking, and I cannot tell. SOCRATES: But you surely know what are the charges which we bring against one another, when we arrive at the point of making war, and what name we give them? ALCIBIADES: Yes, certainly; we say that deceit or violence has been employed, or that we have been defrauded. SOCRATES: And how does this happen? Will you tell me how? For there may be a difference in the manner. ALCIBIADES: Do you mean by 'how,' Socrates, whether we suffered these things justly or unjustly? SOCRATES: Exactly. ALCIBIADES: There can be no greater difference than between just and unjust. SOCRATES: And would you advise the Athenians to go to war with the just or with the unjust? ALCIBIADES: That is an awkward question; for certainly, even if a person did intend to go to war with the just, he would not admit that they were just. SOCRATES: He would not go to war, because it would be unlawful? ALCIBIADES: Neither lawful nor honourable. SOCRATES: Then you, too, would address them on principles of justice? ALCIBIADES: Certainly. SOCRATES: What, then, is justice but that better, of which I spoke, in going to war or not going to war with those against whom we ought or ought not, and when we ought or ought not to go to war? ALCIBIADES: Clearly. SOCRATES: But how is this, friend Alcibiades? Have you forgotten that you do not know this, or have you been to the schoolmaster without my knowledge, and has he taught you to discern the just from the unjust? Who is he? I wish you would tell me, that I may go and learn of him—you shall introduce me . . . . Very good; and can you tell me how long it is since you thought that you did not know the nature of the just and the unjust? What do you say to a year ago? Were you then in a state of conscious ignorance and enquiry? Or did you think that you knew? And please to answer truly, that our discussion may not be in vain. ALCIBIADES: Well, I thought that I knew. SOCRATES: And two years ago, and three years ago, and four years ago, you knew all the same? ALCIBIADES: I did. SOCRATES: And more than four years ago you were a child—were you not? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: And then I am quite sure that you thought you knew. ALCIBIADES: Why are you so sure? SOCRATES: Because I often heard you when a child, in your teacher's house, or elsewhere, playing at dice or some other game with the boys, not hesitating at all about the nature of the just and unjust; but very confident—crying and shouting that one of the boys was a rogue and a cheat, and had been cheating. Is it not true? ALCIBIADES: But what was I to do, Socrates, when anybody cheated me? SOCRATES: And how can you say, 'What was I to do'? if at the time you did not know whether you were wronged or not? ALCIBIADES: To be sure I knew; I was quite aware that I was being cheated. SOCRATES: Then you suppose yourself even when a child to have known the nature of just and unjust? ALCIBIADES: Certainly; and I did know then. SOCRATES: And when did you discover them—not, surely, at the time when you thought that you knew them? ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. SOCRATES: And when did you think that you were ignorant—if you consider, you will find that there never was such a time? ALCIBIADES: Really, Socrates, I cannot say. SOCRATES: Then you did not learn them by discovering them? ALCIBIADES: Clearly not. SOCRATES: But just before you said that you did not know them by learning; now, if you have neither discovered nor learned them, how and whence do you come to know them? ALCIBIADES: I suppose that I was mistaken in saying that I knew them through my own discovery of them; whereas, in truth, I learned them in the same way that other people learn. SOCRATES: So you said before, and I must again ask, of whom? Do tell me. ALCIBIADES: Of the many. SOCRATES: Do you take refuge in them? I cannot say much for your teachers. ALCIBIADES: Why, are they not able to teach? SOCRATES: They could not teach you how to play at draughts, which you would acknowledge (would you not) to be a much smaller matter than justice? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: And can they teach the better who are unable to teach the worse? ALCIBIADES: I think that they can; at any rate, they can teach many far better things than to play at draughts. SOCRATES: What things? ALCIBIADES: Why, for example, I learned to speak Greek of them, and I cannot say who was my teacher, or to whom I am to attribute my knowledge of Greek, if not to those good-for-nothing teachers, as you call them. SOCRATES: Why, yes, my friend; and the many are good enough teachers of Greek, and some of their instructions in that line may be justly praised. ALCIBIADES: Why is that? SOCRATES: Why, because they have the qualities which good teachers ought to have. ALCIBIADES: What qualities? SOCRATES: Why, you know that knowledge is the first qualification of any teacher? ALCIBIADES: Certainly. SOCRATES: And if they know, they must agree together and not differ? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: And would you say that they knew the things about which they differ? ALCIBIADES: No. SOCRATES: Then how can they teach them? ALCIBIADES: They cannot . . .
In short, where you find hopeless contentions and confusions or appeals merely to the "consensus" of the many or the anointed elite, throw the red flag of warning and go back to first principles issues. (My thoughts on that general subject, the grounds of our being under moral government, were posed here at UD some time ago in reply to AS: https://uncommondescent.com/religion/as-vs-eyewitness-experience-non-testimonial-evidence-and-the-reasonableness-of-theism/ I trust, some will find them helpful.)kairosfocus
May 7, 2015
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#51 YM
So far you have called me a liar, stupid and an idiot
If you are going to get into any kind of debate with Barry you will get used to it.Mark Frank
May 7, 2015
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Mung:
No harm no foul is not a good basis for morality.
It's an excellent basis for morality. In fact it's pretty well the first step in any moral system. Once you've discovered something is harmful, then we need some kind of system of ethics to figure out what is least harmful, when harm is justified, etc. But that is all predicated on the presumption of that the action in question causes harm. If there's no harm, there's no need for an ethical decision. That's why Hippocrates put it at the front: First, Do No HarmElizabeth Liddle
May 6, 2015
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videos - Extended Interviews with 29 former homosexuals http://suchweresomeofyou.org/ I found this testimony particularly moving Daniel Delgado Pt 1 - Transgender Transformation - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv1ZK6a3ITk I’ve also been following Matt Moore’s walk with the Lord since he turned from the gay lifestyle several years ago. He is one of the most brutally honest humans I’ve seen write. For Years I Pleaded With God To Make Me Straight, So Why Did My Prayers Go Unanswered? Matt Moore - 2015 Excerpt: My heart was changed instantaneously when I trusted in Christ and began to follow Him, but my mind was not. I now have a heart that genuinely loves God and desires to worship Him, but at the same time, I'm still utterly messed up and damaged by sin. The Lord is working in me and renewing my mind day by day, shaping me more and more into the reflection of Him that I was created to be. But it's been a process. And it will continue to be a process until I receive a new, perfect and sinless body in the age to come. When that day comes, the fullness of what Jesus purchased for me will be given to me: full freedom from every sinful thing that restrains my enjoyment and worship of God. http://www.christianpost.com/news/for-years-i-pleaded-with-god-to-make-me-straight-so-why-did-my-prayers-go-unanswered-133098/bornagain77
May 6, 2015
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Barry: "UDEditors: Really? Whether Cystic fibrosis, Down syndrome, Alzheimer’s disease, Hemophilia, Huntington’s disease and Tay-Sachs are bad is totally dependent on perspective? Idiot." But those weren't the examples you used. You used sickle cell, which has long been known to provide a resistance to malaria. An easily researched fact. Maybe you were an idiot to use that as an example. And some of your other examples do not reveal themselves until after reproductive years. So, again, whether or not they are defects (bad) depends on perspective. Certainly from the individual perspective they are not good, but from the human perspective, natural law if you will, they are neutral. Hereditary genetic "defects" do not tend to survive if they affect the youth. In fact I have one that tends to significantly shorten life span. And there is a good chance that at least one of my children do as well. From a natural law perspective, this is neither good nor bad. But I am certainly not happy about it. So far you have called me a liar, stupid and an idiot. My father once told me that name calling is the fall back position for people who can't defend their position, have no imagination, or are assholes. Being a generous soul, I will let you pick.Yarko Matkewski
May 6, 2015
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Graham2: And you would participate in the murder of your child, using her as a means rather than an end. Yes, I would allow one of my children to die if the only alternative was to murder another one of my children. You apparently do not grasp what is obvious to others: Murder and allowing to die are in different moral categories. Hint: One is always bad; the other is not.Barry Arrington
May 6, 2015
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BA: You have this exactly wrong. Good is not defined as “not evil.” Evil is defined as “not good.” . How about something that is both " not good" and " not evil" ?velikovskys
May 6, 2015
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Mike @ 46 You missed the point of my comment and of the OP. You say that even if alcoholism has a genetic component it is bad; you say that homosexuality is not bad, especially if it has a genetic component. So you agree with Torely and me. Whether something has a genetic component is irrelevant in the analysis of whether it is good or bad. Some things with a genetic component are bad; some things with a genetic component are good.Barry Arrington
May 6, 2015
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Barry is the one that would allow his own children to die, rather than make a decision. I think that's one person whos views on morality we can ignore.Graham2
May 6, 2015
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Barry: So if it turns out that alcoholism turns out to have a genetic basis you will consider it to be a good thing?
What an alcoholic does in his own home is his own business, as long as nobody else is negatively affected. As soon as he steps off his property, or starts abusing anyone, it's everyone's business. Alcoholism is destructive to unwilling victims. Tremendous amounts of domestic abuse. 10000+ deaths a year due to alcohol related car crashes. So of course it's not a good or justifiable thing. The primary purpose of the state, IMO, is to protect people from being victims of other people and to protect the Union as a whole from foreign invaders. I see how regulating alcohol, and punishing alcoholic offenders does that. I don't see how outlawing gay marriage accomplishes that.mike1962
May 6, 2015
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Barry: "You say you don’t understand the point. Either you are an outrageous liar or incredibly stupid. Charity compels me to assume the latter. Either way, however, continuing the discussion with you is pointless." Reading comprehension is obviously not your strength. I didn't say that I didn't understand your point. I said that it wasn't blatantly obvious. But I was being generous. Your point was blatantly wrong. Calling something a genetic defect (bad) is totally dependent on perspective. UDEditors: Really? Whether Cystic fibrosis, Down syndrome, Alzheimer's disease, Hemophilia, Huntington's disease and Tay-Sachs are bad is totally dependent on perspective? Idiot. Sickle cell is a prime example. Modern medicine has resulted in this being a gene that nobody would wish on anyone. UDEditors: And since I am writing the comment in 2015, that is where the analysis ends. It is bad. But prior to modern medicine, it allowed those with the gene to survive long enough to reproduce. So, back then, was it a defect or an adaptation? UDEditors: It was a defect. The lesser of two evils is still evil. If you are not capable of admitting an error, I can see why you would prefer to call me stupid and close off conversation. We all have to stick with our strengths. Yarko Matkewski
May 6, 2015
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Especially if it turns out that gay people are that way genetically.
So if it turns out that alcoholism turns out to have a genetic basis you will consider it to be a good thing?Barry Arrington
May 6, 2015
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Barry: That’s good; because I did not say this. Sean did.
Oops. Sorry. Mea culpa.mike1962
May 6, 2015
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Barry, I guess we'll have to disagree. I find nothing persuasive in the OP or in any of the comments that would lead me to accept that the state has the right to trump individual liberty that does no harm to disinterested parties because of some natural law argument or (which is not part the OP) because the majority happens to think it repugnant. Especially if it turns out that gay people are that way genetically. I suppose I would say that the idea of practical fairness trumps the natural law position.mike1962
May 6, 2015
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Mike @ 39. You apparently did not read the OP. Your questions are answered there.Barry Arrington
May 6, 2015
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YM @ 38:
So, what is the point that is blatantly obvious?
You say you don't understand the point. Either you are an outrageous liar or incredibly stupid. Charity compels me to assume the latter. Either way, however, continuing the discussion with you is pointless.Barry Arrington
May 6, 2015
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