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William Munny: Ubermensch

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We have art for the same reason we put windows in houses. We need to see outside. Just as a window allows us to see the physical world outside of the narrow confines of the walls surrounding us, art allows us to see out into the world of ideas, and sometimes the view is appalling. I was reminded of this a few days ago when a friend told me he had not watched more than one episode of Breaking Bad because the squalor and violence depicted was unbearably depressing. He said he finally grasped why the program might be worth watching further when he read my post, Walter White: Consequentialist. Yes, the squalor and violence in that series were awful, but they served the artist’s purpose, which was to examine an ordinary man’s spiral into ever-increasing evil once he decided the end could justify the means.

Great art is not always beautiful. When an artist examines an ugly idea, his art will reflect that ugliness. Consider the movie Unforgiven, Clint Eastwood’s best film. If you like your existential nihilism served especially bleak and full of despair, you can hardly do better than this. In a small Wyoming town two cowboys disfigure a young prostitute. Denied justice by the local sheriff, “Little Bill” Daggett, the residents of the brothel pool their money and offer a reward for the death of the cowboys. William Munny is an aging gunfighter turned Kansas farmer, who once killed women and children during a train robbery. Munny, his friend Ned, and the “Kid” travel to Wyoming, kill the cowboys, and collect the reward. As he is about to return home, Munny learns Little Bill has captured Ned and tortured him to death. Munny goes back into town where Ned’s body is on display outside the saloon. This enrages Munny, and he goes in and kills the saloon keeper, Little Bill and several of his deputies. Munny walks out, warns the townspeople to give Ned a proper burial, and the movie ends as he rides off into the rainy night.

Two lines of dialogue and the epilogue capture perfectly the nihilism at the heart of the film. In the final scene Munny is standing over a wounded Little Bill Daggett about to administer the coup de grâce. Daggett says, “I don’t deserve this . . . to die like this.” Munny replies, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it,” and shoots him dead.  A few minutes later at the end of the film a text epilogue scrolls across the screen.  It says that Munny moved away from Kansas, “some said to San Francisco, where it was rumored he prospered in dry goods.”

Munny is a Nietzschen “ubermensch,” the nihilist superman. Deserving has nothing to do with it indeed, because justice is an illusion, part of the outdated “slave morality” that does not bind him. God is dead. There is no good. There is no evil. There are only the strong and the weak, and at that moment Munny has the gun, and Daggett is disarmed, wounded and lying on the floor. Munny has killed women and children. He has just murdered an unarmed saloonkeeper and several deputies in a fit of pique. Now he’s going to murder Daggett in cold blood. And none of these things will prevent him from moving to San Francisco where he will prosper in dry goods.

Our materialist friends say that “good” and “evil” are entirely subjective concepts. Frequent commenter Pro Hac Vice puts it this way:

I don’t believe “bad” is an objective statement, any more than “tasty” is. “It is tasty” is a subjective statement. So is “it is bad,” if you start from the assumption that “bad” is a subjective quality.

When I say Brussels sprouts are tasty, I mean nothing more than that I prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. It is an entirely subjective statement. PHV is right about that. He might say that Brussels sprouts are “bad,” and if he did he would not be heaping moral opprobrium on Brussels sprouts. He would merely be saying that he does not prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. Is there any standard by which we could somehow arbitrate between my view of Brussels sprouts and PHV’s view to determine once and for all if they are good or bad? Of course not. There is no standard to judge between subjective preferences.

Will Munny murdered women and children for personal gain. He murdered two cowboys for the reward money. He killed an unarmed saloonkeeper. He murdered several deputies, and in the end he murdered Bill Daggett. Let’s call all of these things “Munny’s Crimes.”

I am certain PHV would say that Munny’s Crimes are “bad.” I am equally certain that he would say that when he asserts that Munny’s Crimes are “bad,” he is using the word “bad” in the same way he used it when he referred to Brussels sprouts. In other words, all he is saying is that he personally, for whatever reason, does not prefer to commit Munny’s Crimes. An inevitable logical corollary to PHV’s position is that if someone else (let’s call him “Frank”) were to say that Munny’s Crimes were good, PHV could say that he personally disagrees with Frank. He might even say he strongly disagrees with Frank. But he cannot logically say that some standard exists to arbitrate between his view on the matter and Frank’s view. After all, whether Munny’s Crimes were good or bad is, under PHV’s rules of analysis, nothing more than an expression of personal preference, ultimately no different from whether to eat Brussels sprouts or leave them on the plate.

Now someone might say PHV’s conclusions are illogical, but they would be mistaken. PHV’s conclusions follow from his premises like night follows day. Let us examine his argument:

1. Particles in motion are all that exist or ever have existed.

2. This means there is no God.

3. Since God does not exist, transcendent ethical norms are not possible.

4. It follows that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are not saying that it is a transgression against an objective standard of ethical norms, because no such standard exists.

5. The only other possibility is that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are merely expressing a subjective personal preference, i.e., we do not prefer the behavior.

6. Therefore, when we say, for example, that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “bad” we are saying nothing more than that we do not prefer such a thing.

7. Finally, if someone else says that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “good,” while we may disagree with them, there is no objective standard by which our views could be arbitrated.

Dostoevsky, though a Christian, would agree that PHV’s premises lead to his conclusions: In Brothers Karamazov he wrote:

‘But,’ I asked, ‘how will man be after that? Without God and the future life? It means everything is permitted now, one can do anything?’ ‘Didn’t you know?’ he said. And he laughed. ‘Everything is permitted to the intelligent man,’ he said.”

We see, then, that PHV is correct. If God does not exist, if materialism is true, if the entire universe consists of nothing but particles in motion, then the concept of an objective standard for ethical norms is meaningless. Indeed, the very concept of libertarian free will is meaningless, and if libertarian free will – the ability to have done otherwise – does not exist, no one can be held morally responsible for their behavior because, by definition, they could not have done otherwise. As Munny says to Daggett, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.” And why shouldn’t Munny move to San Francisco and prosper in dry goods in spite of all of his crimes? After all, he has done nothing evil.

If we heard that a hairy ape in Africa killed a dozen other hairy apes with a rock, we wouldn’t demand “justice” for the dead hairy apes. Munny is nothing but a jumped up hairless ape who happens to be cleverer with firearms than the hairless apes he killed. On a materialist worldview, there is no difference between the hairy ape and the hairless ape, and the fact that our subjective reactions to the two massacres might differ cannot be based on anything other than pure sentiment, certainly not because there is a moral difference between the two acts.

Richard Dawkins summarized the theme of Unforgiven in his River Out of Eden:

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Munny’s innocent victims got hurt, and he got lucky in the dry goods business.

We see then that PHV’s argument is perfectly valid, even airtight, given his premises. But is his argument sound? Now that, dear readers, is another question, and the answer to that question depends on whether PHV’s first two premises are true, and there are many good reasons to believe they are not. The self-evident existence of transcendent moral truth is one such reason. I have stated several times in these pages that it is self-evident that torturing infants for personal pleasure is evil. By “self-evident” I mean that to deny the proposition leads to absurdity. By “absurd” I mean “the quality or condition of existing in a meaningless and irrational world.” Mark Frank has asked me several times what “absurdity” results from denying that it is evil to torture infants for pleasure. I have answered him several times, and I will answer him again: If torturing infants for personal pleasure is not evil, then the universe is absurd – the entire world is meaningless and irrational.

In the quotation above, Richard Dawkins insists the universe is, in a word, absurd. StephenB, KF, I and others have been arguing that the universe is not ultimately meaningless. We believe that our intense intuition that torturing infants for pleasure is evil in all places at all times for all people is not merely a strongly held personal preference. We argue that our intuition is based on our perception of a fundamental reality that is part of the very warp and woof of the universe. God is not just good; he is very goodness. When he created the universe his goodness pervaded his creation leading him to announce “it is good,” and even in the universe’s current fallen state, the Creator’s goodness continues to pervade it, and we perceive that goodness. Indeed, it is impossible not to perceive it. There are some things that we cannot not know. That torturing infants for pleasure is evil – that it transgresses the moral law woven into the fabric of the universe – is one such thing.

There are many reasons other than the existence of self-evident moral truth to believe that God exists. We admit, however, that none of these reasons to believe establishes that God exists with apodictic certainty. It follows that there is some possibility that PHV’s first two premises are correct and that the universe is ultimately meaningless and irrational. But just as we cannot be absolutely certain we are right, PHV cannot be absolutely certain we are wrong. Even Dawkins is honest enough not to insist he has certain knowledge about God. He says only that there is “probably” no God. The smug certitude so many materialists display on these pages is unwarranted, and it follows that we should be very careful indeed before we choose on which side of Pascal’s wager to place our chips.

Comments
#78 StephenB You are right I don't understand what "error exists" means other than that people make errors. Perhaps you can explain or give me a reference.Mark Frank
November 28, 2013
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Mark:
I said it was an objective fact that people make errors. That doesn’t mean that all the errors are about objective things – though clearly many of them are. But if for example I believe someone is attractive then learn something about them that makes them unattractive that would be a subjective error.
Well, then, you don't understand the meaning of the term "error exists," which is a reference to the error itself, not the person making it. So, once again from the top: Is the error that exists [which is exactly what I originally asked] objective or subjective?StephenB
November 28, 2013
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#76 Stephenb I said it was an objective fact that people make errors. That doesn't mean that all the errors are about objective things - though clearly many of them are. But if for example I believe someone is attractive then learn something about them that makes them unattractive that would be a subjective error.Mark Frank
November 28, 2013
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Mark Frank
If by “error exists” you mean people make errors then it objective. What’s behind this?
If people make errors, and if those errors are objective, then so is the truth from which those errors deviate. In other words, the maker of the mistake doesn't simply feel wrong because his actions do not conform to his subjective preferences, he is wrong because they do not conform to the objective standard of reality. If truth is not objective, then error isn't even possible.StephenB
November 28, 2013
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#73 StephenB If by "error exists" you mean people make errors then it objective. What's behind this?Mark Frank
November 28, 2013
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Charles, I think we do have some disagreements, but not about anything that is worth arguing about. For example, I don't think it is always immoral to lie. That you do doesn't bother me. If I am wrong, I will accept the consequences. Like I said, I respect and enjoy your argument, but my conscience, which I consider to be the sensory apparatus by which I perceive the moral landscape, tells me that there is a qualitative difference between some lies and others; and by logic I can find no good reason to not lie in those situations - in fact, logic tells me I must. In those situations, where my conscience is clear and logic clearly supports my decision to lie, I know, as much as I know anything, that I have done nothing wrong.William J Murray
November 28, 2013
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SB: The very fact that PHV cannot (or will not try to) answer my question @52 shows that his position is untenable. Mark Frank
Or more mundanely that he never read your comment or has got fed up with UD.
If that is the case, he certainly picked a convenient time to get fed up. Since Central Scrutinizer, a defender of PHV, also got fed up at just the right time, perhaps you, another fan, and someone who is not yet fed up, would like to take it on. PHV agreed, kicking and screaming, that error exists. So, here is my question: Is the error that exists objective or subjective?StephenB
November 28, 2013
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#70 StephenB
The very fact that PHV cannot (or will not try to) answer my question @52 shows that his position is untenable.
Or more mundanely that he never read your comment or has got fed up with UD.Mark Frank
November 28, 2013
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Correction in my #67: (e.g. an analogy like Orwell’s “1984?) should have been (e.g. an allegory like Orwell’s “Animal Farm?) (sigh)Charles
November 28, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer
I’d say my take on it is decent.
Unfortunately, that is not the case. What is your response to my comment @62?
PHV is right philosophically and in a common sense, practical way. But it’s been fun watching the exchange.
PHV is wrong in both ways.
By and large, it’s only the common sense, practical way that matters. It’s a subjective world.
The phrase "it is" indicates being, which is, by definition, objective; the phrase "it seems" indicates perception, which is, by definition, subjective. Thus, your phrase, "it is a subjective world" contradicts itself.
You and Barry have fallen short in any sort attempt to make PHV’s views look absurd philosophy, and wrong practically.
The very fact that PHV cannot (or will not try to) answer my question @52 shows that his position is untenable. He left the scene right after I put it to him. Since you think he is correct, why don't you take it up for him? He agreed, kicking and screaming, that error exists. My question persists: Is the error that exists objective or subjective?StephenB
November 27, 2013
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PS: Cf here on SETs.kairosfocus
November 27, 2013
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F/N: why would anyone think it reasonable to suggest that someone in delusion imagining himself to be Napoleon is a case of self-evident truth? First, one's name is not a self-evident truth. One's name is not seen to be true on our conscious experience of the world once one understands what is being said in saying "Me llamo XCVB . . . " Nor would denying that one's name is XCVB immediately, patently and necessarily land in absurdity. The case in the main is not even relevant. And the delusional madman is the same on steroids. Self evident does not mean that which seems true to the self. It is possible to be deluded about or deny a SET, but only on pain of patent absurdity. Comparable to saying 2 + 3 = 4, and insisting that the steps of laying out four sticks on one side and groups of two and three on the other then taking away four on both sides leaving one on the side with 2 + 3 and 0 on that which had had 4 could be merely a mistaken perception. after all we could at any time or situation be mistaken. (Hint, the appeal to general delusion or dismissive potential for same is self-referentially absurd by infinite regress that undermines rational discussion.) KFkairosfocus
November 27, 2013
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William J Murray @ 61
Thus by your rationale, a lie is justified as “right” because the lie itself factually exists in the material universe.
While the "lie" may exist factually (e.g. as a stream of encoded information bits), what the lie purports to describe (e.g. "1 2 3 4 5 6 are all prime numbers") does not factually exist. The lie can be compared to the facts it contradicts, and exposed as a lie, as a fiction, and that comparison can be done objectively, and in a purely materialist universe the "lie" (i.e. it's claims or descriptions, rather than how it is encoded and transmitted) can be shown as "wrong" by virtue of the fact that the purported description is contradicted by fact and hence the purported description is objectively wrong. But regardless of how objectively a lie can be exposed, is a lie morally wrong?
Is it immoral to lie to the Nazi at your door? I think it is obvious (even if perhaps not self-evidently so) that the moral thing to do is to lie to the Nazi at your door; it would be immoral **not** to lie.
You are arguing the relative morality of a greater good vs. a greater evil. It is immoral to lie, it is also immoral to torture, imprison and murder Jews. Arguably, the greater immorality is torture, imprisonment and murder vs. deception to prevent same. Regardless, both are immoral, albeit with different consequences to which we attach differing valuations of morality. Both are objectively, self-evidently, morally wrong, but we (reasonably) view torture, etc. as more wrong than the lie to prevent same. The self-evidence of both being immoral is that you would pose it in this context as a dilemma, i.e. which of the two morally wrong choices to make?
Morality doesn’t serve the factual nature of the material universe; it serves the spiritual nature we as humans all share.
Factual physical laws, particles, entanglements, energy and matter, etc. have no moral component, and accordingly, agreed that a materialistic universe is not served by morality because morality, as opposed to gravity (for example), is non-physical. That morality serves our shared spiritual nature is again agreed, but that is because morality's component is essentially orthogonal to material physical components – i.e., they never intersect. A materialistic universe is indifferent to any moral aspect of fiction because it is uninfluenced by fiction (whether moral or immoral), while moral and immoral facts exist both in our materialistic universe because we (as resident moral beings) define and attach such meaning, regardless of however we assert the origins of our morality. Life exists in our materialistic universe and we further deem life, especially human life, particularly human infant life to be both "good" morally as well as "right" materialistically. But fiction is objectively wrong in a materialistic universe, and though materialistically nonexistent, fiction can be immoral (e.g. a lie), or amoral (e.g. a bedtime story), or moral (e.g. an analogy like Orwell's "1984"). It is because a "lie" is both fictional and immoral that it's "wrongness" seems objective and self-evident in both materialist and supernatural contexts, simultaneously. A "lie" seemed an apropos example whether one is a materialist or theist. We are perhaps arguing past each other, for different points?Charles
November 27, 2013
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CS, It is in a different domain indeed from wholes and parts, but that does not prevent it from being true once we understand what is being said in light of our conscious experience of the world, and in light of the must be so on pain of absurdity on attempted denial. Try to deny the assertion and see where it patently, immediately lands you. Indeed, I observe that those who dispute it are very careful to avoid overtly and directly denying it. No prizes for guessing why. Then we can ask what this case by way of corollaries is telling us about the value, equality, dignity and reasonable expectations of the human person. Especially one who by definition is too weak and to undeveloped mentally to exert advantageously the might and/or manipulation makes 'right' explicit or implicit dictum of the materialists since Plato. KFkairosfocus
November 27, 2013
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WJM, To continue, take the "killing babies for fun is always evil" claim made here over and over. Do you think that is equivalent in a self-evidentiary way with the statement, "A finite whole is greater than, or equal to, any of its parts"? If so, than I think it's you and Barry who don't know what a self-evident truth is.CentralScrutinizer
November 27, 2013
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WJM @60 :Under what definition of “self-evident truth”? Do you know what “self-evident truth” means, as a philosophical concept? It seems to me that the only way you can come up with this incorrect example is by looking at the words in the phrase and stringing common definitions of those words together.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-evidence I'd say my take on it is decent. PHV is right philosophically and in a common sense, practical way. But it's been fun watching the exchange. By and large, it's only the common sense, practical way that matters. It's a subjective world. You and Barry have fallen short in any sort attempt to make PHV's views look absurd philosophy, and wrong practically.CentralScrutinizer
November 27, 2013
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Here's hoping that PHV will answer my question. PHV:
Yes, I think it’s impossible for the statement “error exists” to be incorrect.
Is the error that exists objective or subjective?StephenB
November 27, 2013
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CS:
When an insane person asserts, “I am Napolean”, he is asserting a “self evident truth.”
In order for a truth to be self-evident, it must, by definition, be true.StephenB
November 27, 2013
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Charles, While that is a great argument supporting the proposition that lying is always immoral, it cannot by definition make a case that lying is self-evidently wrong. Self-evident truths require no argument or evidence to apprehend that they are true. Other arguments are made from self-evidently true moral statements, not towards them. Let's look at the basis you cite for a material justification of the "wrongness" of lying:
In a materialistic universe, truth and fact are objectively “right” whereas fiction is objectively “wrong”, even antithetical to the universe as it factually exists.
Also, while what a lie refers to is not factually existent, the lie itself is. Thus by your rationale, a lie is justified as "right" because the lie itself factually exists in the material universe. You say:
Lying is self-evidently wrong.
Let's put this to the test. You, your wife and children are part of the resistance in Nazi germany. You are hiding Jews in secret areas of your home. The Nazis knock on your door and ask you if you know of any Jews hidden anywhere in the city. You believe that to reveal the Jews hidden in your house will mean their torturous, horrific imprisonment and eventual death. Is it immoral to lie to the Nazi at your door? I think it is obvious (even if perhaps not self-evidently so) that the moral thing to do is to lie to the Nazi at your door; it would be immoral **not** to lie. Morality doesn't serve the factual nature of the material universe; it serves the spiritual nature we as humans all share.William J Murray
November 27, 2013
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When an insane person asserts, “I am Napolean”, he is asserting a “self evident truth.”
Under what definition of "self-evident truth"? Do you know what "self-evident truth" means, as a philosophical concept? It seems to me that the only way you can come up with this incorrect example is by looking at the words in the phrase and stringing common definitions of those words together.William J Murray
November 27, 2013
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Charles @ 54 You are exactly right.CannuckianYankee
November 27, 2013
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CentralS:
When an insane person asserts, “I am Napolean”, he is asserting a “self evident truth.”
No. That's not what self-evident means. It does not mean whatever seems apparent to the self, but what is incontrovertibly true apart from what I may believe to be true. You are asserting that self-evident truth is what it is merely to the observer. Don't mistake what the self is here. It is not the obersver, but the truth itself. It has nothing to do with what we believe to be true. I can believe that 2+2=3, but that is not self-evidently true. I can argue that 2+2 does not equal 3 by demonstration. I CAN argue that 2+2=4, but it is incontrovertibly true. It does not require demonstration or argument. To be idiomatic here: "it is what it is." From Webster: Self-Evident: ....evident without proof or reasoning. synonym: prima facie. related terms: self-explanatory; apparent, clear, evident, hands-down, manifest, obvious, open-and-shut, patent, plain, transparent, unmistakable; incontestable, incontrovertible, indisputable, indubitable, undeniable, unquestionable; accepted, given, granted. Near Antonyms: arguable, contestable, debatable, disputable, doubtable, dubious, moot, problematic (also problematical), questionable. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-evidentCannuckianYankee
November 27, 2013
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When an insane person asserts, "I am Napolean", he is asserting a "self evident truth." The problem with self-evident truths are is that the only people who agree with you are others that see that "self evident truth." PHV is right. And he has been crystal clear about his views. He has not denied that an objective moral truth exists. But regardless of whether or not there is an objective moral truth, nobody can determine what it is. Nobody's sense of "self evidency" is actual evident any more than someones "self evident" claim of being Napolean is evidence that he is Napolean. It's a subjective world, folks. Despite all the philosophizing, and claims of "moral certainty", everyone is acting subjectivity, even when there is a large consensus.CentralScrutinizer
November 27, 2013
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#54 Charles Could you rewrite your comment more concisely (I suggest 200 words)? It is rather hard to work out the thread of your argument. ThanksMark Frank
November 26, 2013
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Me:
And if there is that transcendent standard; which I believe is the self-evident source for morality, then all morally right propositions are also self-evident.
PHV:
That’s a problematic position because we know, empirically, that people disagree over “morally right propositions” all the time, based on their conflicting beliefs in inconsistent moral propositions. Possibly they’re all just mistaken in the way they perceive the self-evident truths, but if it’s possible to be so mistaken (such that entire generations and cultures disagree with one another) then there’s no practical objectivity to speak of.
Again; if there is that transcendent standard - above human understanding. You seem to be thinking that humans are themselves the standard. If that's the case, then morally right porpositions are a matter of opinion, and we have no business as humans judging any moral position; because it's simply meaningless. Any person can prop him or herself up as the standarbearer of morality. That's exactly what's wrong with the materialist position. It's ultimate end is "might makes right," which is not only tyranny, but logically untenable as well. We know that might and rightness are two different categories. It does not follow that I SHOULD do something because someone forces me to do it. I then have no choice, and then the issue of right becomes meaningless. It's these issues among many others, which keep me from being a materialist. Clarification: when I say "morally right propositions" I mean those that line-up and are not contradictory to the source (standard); which I believe is God. If God is just, then justice is a morally right proposition. If God is love, then love is a morally right proposition....etc...CannuckianYankee
November 26, 2013
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Ok, I'll take a stab at suggesting an objectively self-evident moral truth. Lying, a deliberate intent to falsify information or cause a false perception in others, is objectively morally self-evidently wrong. It is objectively wrong. In a materialistic universe directed solely by physical laws and quantum effects, falsehood, the intentional misrepresentation of fiction as fact is impossible. Laws and particles don't lie. They are what they actually are, however difficult they may be to measure or predict, they are regardless uninfluenced by fiction. In a materialistic universe, outcomes and consequences are always factual, never fictional and the distinction between fact and fiction can be objectively compared. Facts are objectively true and correct while fiction is objectively false and incorrect, albeit difficult to observe and measure, but theoretically possible even at quantum levels. Now if one argues that the universe is not solely materialistic and admits to a nonphysical, supernatural aspect of "mind" or "conscience", then regardless, lying remains objectively wrong; one has merely admitted to the means by which a mental decision to lie is not limited by the physical constraints on materialistic laws and particles. Lying is morally wrong because it is an attempt to cause others to believe a falsehood in contradiction to what they would otherwise would think based upon the truth. In absence of a lie, decisions can be made in accordance with truth and fact, had the liar not intervened to affect the outcome. Lying is a moral act because the alternatives, silence permitting a materialistic outcome (unaltered by fiction) is an amoral act while truth permitting the same materialistic outcome (also unaltered by fiction) is either indistinguishable from amoral silence or moral if correcting a falsehood and illuminating fact and truth. Lying to affect an outcome for moral reasons merely reinforces the moral basis for the lie. Lying is also "wrong", as opposed to "right". Lying establishes the source as dishonest, not to be believed without expenditure of unproductive effort and energy, which merely establishes facts as if the source had remained silent to begin with. In a materialistic universe, truth and fact are objectively "right" whereas fiction is objectively "wrong", even antithetical to the universe as it factually exists. But again if one admits to supernatural mind or conscience, then depriving someone of the truth deprives them of the opportunity to choose or decide with morally right behavior, even if the intended outcome is deemed morally preferable. But if the means (to an end) are falsified, there is no assurance that the end hasn't been falsified as well. The entire gamut of communication with a liar is an unproductive, fruitless expenditure of time, patience and bandwidth (as posters here know all too well). Causing a needless waste of resources and unsustainable outcomes based on ephemeral fiction rather than enduring fact, consequent to lying, is morally wrong. Lying is self-evidently wrong. We are able to lie or tell the truth, we all know our ability to lie is self-evident. Lying requires a conscious deliberate effort by the "self", the entity formulating the lie. Further, lying requires knowledge of what is true and factual and then awareness of how to alter the truth and facts so as to cause the target to believe a falsehood. Lying is neither accidental nor unaware. Lying is causative and intentional – it is self-evident. Lying is morally, objectively and self-evidently wrong.Charles
November 26, 2013
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PHV:
Here’s the first question. Yes, I think it’s impossible for the statement “error exists” to be incorrect. I don’t think that does your position any favors, though; “error exists” is trivially true because to deny it is inherently self-refuting. Denying your assertions is not self-refuting.
Is the error that exists objective or subjective?StephenB
November 26, 2013
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PHV @ 43:
You have cultivated a nasty reputation as being unable or unwilling to have civil conversations with people who disagree with you; this is certainly consistent with that tendency
It is true that I have little patience with the sort of sophistry you are selling, and I treat it harshly. I make no apology. Your statement reminds me of a song from the 70's. "He had a nasty reputation as a cruel dude. They said he was ruthless. They said he was crude." :-)
The set of X is not empty if I can find at least one X. I assert without argument that at least one X exists. Therefore the set of X is not empty. That is circular.
Let’s examine why your example is mistaken, even obviously so. Let us substitute set Y for set X where set Y is the set of addition operations involving only the positive integer “2” where the addition operation equals exactly 4. I assert without argument that at least one such addition operation exists (namely, 2+2=4). Therefore the set Y is not empty. You say reasoning like this is circular. You are obviously wrong. Your position does not bear up under the slightest scrutiny. How embarrassing for you.
Do you admit that it is impossible for you to be wrong if you believe the statement “error exists” is true? Yes, I think it’s impossible for the statement “error exists” to be incorrect . . . “error exists” is trivially true because to deny it is inherently self-refuting.
OK. So your definition of a statement about which it is impossible to be wrong is a statement that is (1) trivially true; and (2) that to deny would be inherently self-refuting. The statement “torturing babies for personal pleasure is evil” meets your criteria. It is trivially true. It is impossible to deny it in any meaningful way, and therefore any attempt to deny it would be inherently self-refuting. Welcome to the world of recognizing self-evident moral truths. I’m sorry we had to drag you through the door kicking and screaming.
I think you’re looking for an excuse to ban me in order to save face
I admit that I find your whack-a-mole sophistry to be tedious, but I am not looking for an excuse to ban you. If I banned people for sophistry you would have been gone long ago.
Self-evident truths can be subjective truths
Only if you equivocate about the meaning of the phrase “self-evident truth.” Of course, I am not surprised that you equivocate, equivocation being in the sophist’s standard bag of tricks.
And of course, we do have only your assertion supporting these “self-evident” truths.
That may be the stupidest thing you’ve ever said, and that is saying a lot. That “torturing babies for personal pleasure is evil” is self-evident does not rest on my assertion. It rests on the fact that it is in fact self-evident. Your attempts to distort and distract from this point have gone beyond laughable and have become kind of pathetic.
Unlike logical self-evident truths, your assertions can’t be objectively tested . . .
By “tested” I assume you mean “demonstrated” or “confirmed.” Logical self-evident truths cannot be tested. Tell me. What test would you use to confirm the law of identity? Again, a self-evident truth cannot be demonstrated. It is either accepted or rejected. Arguments are based on premises. As in “A is true because B is true.” That leads to “B is true because C is true” which in turn leads to “C is true because D is true” and so on. At some point, the answer to “And why is X true” must be “It just is.” Do you deny this?
Your assertion that they are self-evident is nothing more than the report of your personal feeling that they are true combined with an inability to support that feeling with external logic. But you could of course be wrong—your inability to articulate an argument could be because you’re only reporting subjective feelings.
I assume by “external logic” you mean “even more basic logical premises that lead to a conclusion.” Let us substitute again: PHV’s assertion that the law of identity is self-evident is nothing more than the report of his personal feeling that it is true combined with an inability to support that feeling with even more basic principles. Your inability to articulate an argument that demonstrates the truth of the law of identity could by because you’re only reporting your subjective feeling that the law of identity is true.
Complex math problems are both “self-evident” and subject to error
That you would say this demonstrates, once again, that you do not have any idea what you are talking about. See my comment destroying Mark’s assertion at 25. See also KF’s excellent discussion at 41.
Your “self-evident” truths fail that test.
No, they don’t.
I’m no philosopher,
And how.
Kantian Naturalist is leading a higher-level discussion of some of these ideas at TSZ
Because he is too gutless to spew his sophistry on these pages where he knows his arguments will be destroyed.Barry Arrington
November 26, 2013
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Some Nazis did not do what they felt like.
Entirely irrelevant to the argument, which is about a Nazi that presumably liked it, and someone who presumably dislikes it.
They rejected their better feelings and instead followed the murderous orders of their superior officers. Some were persuaded by propaganda and centuries old cultural bias.
What difference does any of that make? Under moral subjectivism, how one feels is the justification for an act. What makes a person feel that way is entirely irrelevant because it is not required to justify an act as moral.
Perhaps, BA and WJM, if you did not fancy yourselves to be the moral superiors of the Nazis, you would then see how awful you appear online and how unreasonable your positions are. You might also realize that your imaginary friend stands in as the worst fuehrer of them all
First, if you don't fancy yourself morally superior to a Nazi, you've basically just admitted you are the moral equivalent of a Nazi, which is exactly the point I'm making. Second, why should I care how "awful" I "appear" to anyone online? Third, if you consider the arguments "unreasonable", then make your case. Fourth, who is my imaginary friend, and what has it done that makes it the "worst fuehrer of them all"?William J Murray
November 26, 2013
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He is no longer in mod.
OK objection withdrawn, counsellor.Alan Fox
November 26, 2013
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