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William Munny: Ubermensch

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We have art for the same reason we put windows in houses. We need to see outside. Just as a window allows us to see the physical world outside of the narrow confines of the walls surrounding us, art allows us to see out into the world of ideas, and sometimes the view is appalling. I was reminded of this a few days ago when a friend told me he had not watched more than one episode of Breaking Bad because the squalor and violence depicted was unbearably depressing. He said he finally grasped why the program might be worth watching further when he read my post, Walter White: Consequentialist. Yes, the squalor and violence in that series were awful, but they served the artist’s purpose, which was to examine an ordinary man’s spiral into ever-increasing evil once he decided the end could justify the means.

Great art is not always beautiful. When an artist examines an ugly idea, his art will reflect that ugliness. Consider the movie Unforgiven, Clint Eastwood’s best film. If you like your existential nihilism served especially bleak and full of despair, you can hardly do better than this. In a small Wyoming town two cowboys disfigure a young prostitute. Denied justice by the local sheriff, “Little Bill” Daggett, the residents of the brothel pool their money and offer a reward for the death of the cowboys. William Munny is an aging gunfighter turned Kansas farmer, who once killed women and children during a train robbery. Munny, his friend Ned, and the “Kid” travel to Wyoming, kill the cowboys, and collect the reward. As he is about to return home, Munny learns Little Bill has captured Ned and tortured him to death. Munny goes back into town where Ned’s body is on display outside the saloon. This enrages Munny, and he goes in and kills the saloon keeper, Little Bill and several of his deputies. Munny walks out, warns the townspeople to give Ned a proper burial, and the movie ends as he rides off into the rainy night.

Two lines of dialogue and the epilogue capture perfectly the nihilism at the heart of the film. In the final scene Munny is standing over a wounded Little Bill Daggett about to administer the coup de grâce. Daggett says, “I don’t deserve this . . . to die like this.” Munny replies, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it,” and shoots him dead.  A few minutes later at the end of the film a text epilogue scrolls across the screen.  It says that Munny moved away from Kansas, “some said to San Francisco, where it was rumored he prospered in dry goods.”

Munny is a Nietzschen “ubermensch,” the nihilist superman. Deserving has nothing to do with it indeed, because justice is an illusion, part of the outdated “slave morality” that does not bind him. God is dead. There is no good. There is no evil. There are only the strong and the weak, and at that moment Munny has the gun, and Daggett is disarmed, wounded and lying on the floor. Munny has killed women and children. He has just murdered an unarmed saloonkeeper and several deputies in a fit of pique. Now he’s going to murder Daggett in cold blood. And none of these things will prevent him from moving to San Francisco where he will prosper in dry goods.

Our materialist friends say that “good” and “evil” are entirely subjective concepts. Frequent commenter Pro Hac Vice puts it this way:

I don’t believe “bad” is an objective statement, any more than “tasty” is. “It is tasty” is a subjective statement. So is “it is bad,” if you start from the assumption that “bad” is a subjective quality.

When I say Brussels sprouts are tasty, I mean nothing more than that I prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. It is an entirely subjective statement. PHV is right about that. He might say that Brussels sprouts are “bad,” and if he did he would not be heaping moral opprobrium on Brussels sprouts. He would merely be saying that he does not prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. Is there any standard by which we could somehow arbitrate between my view of Brussels sprouts and PHV’s view to determine once and for all if they are good or bad? Of course not. There is no standard to judge between subjective preferences.

Will Munny murdered women and children for personal gain. He murdered two cowboys for the reward money. He killed an unarmed saloonkeeper. He murdered several deputies, and in the end he murdered Bill Daggett. Let’s call all of these things “Munny’s Crimes.”

I am certain PHV would say that Munny’s Crimes are “bad.” I am equally certain that he would say that when he asserts that Munny’s Crimes are “bad,” he is using the word “bad” in the same way he used it when he referred to Brussels sprouts. In other words, all he is saying is that he personally, for whatever reason, does not prefer to commit Munny’s Crimes. An inevitable logical corollary to PHV’s position is that if someone else (let’s call him “Frank”) were to say that Munny’s Crimes were good, PHV could say that he personally disagrees with Frank. He might even say he strongly disagrees with Frank. But he cannot logically say that some standard exists to arbitrate between his view on the matter and Frank’s view. After all, whether Munny’s Crimes were good or bad is, under PHV’s rules of analysis, nothing more than an expression of personal preference, ultimately no different from whether to eat Brussels sprouts or leave them on the plate.

Now someone might say PHV’s conclusions are illogical, but they would be mistaken. PHV’s conclusions follow from his premises like night follows day. Let us examine his argument:

1. Particles in motion are all that exist or ever have existed.

2. This means there is no God.

3. Since God does not exist, transcendent ethical norms are not possible.

4. It follows that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are not saying that it is a transgression against an objective standard of ethical norms, because no such standard exists.

5. The only other possibility is that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are merely expressing a subjective personal preference, i.e., we do not prefer the behavior.

6. Therefore, when we say, for example, that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “bad” we are saying nothing more than that we do not prefer such a thing.

7. Finally, if someone else says that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “good,” while we may disagree with them, there is no objective standard by which our views could be arbitrated.

Dostoevsky, though a Christian, would agree that PHV’s premises lead to his conclusions: In Brothers Karamazov he wrote:

‘But,’ I asked, ‘how will man be after that? Without God and the future life? It means everything is permitted now, one can do anything?’ ‘Didn’t you know?’ he said. And he laughed. ‘Everything is permitted to the intelligent man,’ he said.”

We see, then, that PHV is correct. If God does not exist, if materialism is true, if the entire universe consists of nothing but particles in motion, then the concept of an objective standard for ethical norms is meaningless. Indeed, the very concept of libertarian free will is meaningless, and if libertarian free will – the ability to have done otherwise – does not exist, no one can be held morally responsible for their behavior because, by definition, they could not have done otherwise. As Munny says to Daggett, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.” And why shouldn’t Munny move to San Francisco and prosper in dry goods in spite of all of his crimes? After all, he has done nothing evil.

If we heard that a hairy ape in Africa killed a dozen other hairy apes with a rock, we wouldn’t demand “justice” for the dead hairy apes. Munny is nothing but a jumped up hairless ape who happens to be cleverer with firearms than the hairless apes he killed. On a materialist worldview, there is no difference between the hairy ape and the hairless ape, and the fact that our subjective reactions to the two massacres might differ cannot be based on anything other than pure sentiment, certainly not because there is a moral difference between the two acts.

Richard Dawkins summarized the theme of Unforgiven in his River Out of Eden:

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Munny’s innocent victims got hurt, and he got lucky in the dry goods business.

We see then that PHV’s argument is perfectly valid, even airtight, given his premises. But is his argument sound? Now that, dear readers, is another question, and the answer to that question depends on whether PHV’s first two premises are true, and there are many good reasons to believe they are not. The self-evident existence of transcendent moral truth is one such reason. I have stated several times in these pages that it is self-evident that torturing infants for personal pleasure is evil. By “self-evident” I mean that to deny the proposition leads to absurdity. By “absurd” I mean “the quality or condition of existing in a meaningless and irrational world.” Mark Frank has asked me several times what “absurdity” results from denying that it is evil to torture infants for pleasure. I have answered him several times, and I will answer him again: If torturing infants for personal pleasure is not evil, then the universe is absurd – the entire world is meaningless and irrational.

In the quotation above, Richard Dawkins insists the universe is, in a word, absurd. StephenB, KF, I and others have been arguing that the universe is not ultimately meaningless. We believe that our intense intuition that torturing infants for pleasure is evil in all places at all times for all people is not merely a strongly held personal preference. We argue that our intuition is based on our perception of a fundamental reality that is part of the very warp and woof of the universe. God is not just good; he is very goodness. When he created the universe his goodness pervaded his creation leading him to announce “it is good,” and even in the universe’s current fallen state, the Creator’s goodness continues to pervade it, and we perceive that goodness. Indeed, it is impossible not to perceive it. There are some things that we cannot not know. That torturing infants for pleasure is evil – that it transgresses the moral law woven into the fabric of the universe – is one such thing.

There are many reasons other than the existence of self-evident moral truth to believe that God exists. We admit, however, that none of these reasons to believe establishes that God exists with apodictic certainty. It follows that there is some possibility that PHV’s first two premises are correct and that the universe is ultimately meaningless and irrational. But just as we cannot be absolutely certain we are right, PHV cannot be absolutely certain we are wrong. Even Dawkins is honest enough not to insist he has certain knowledge about God. He says only that there is “probably” no God. The smug certitude so many materialists display on these pages is unwarranted, and it follows that we should be very careful indeed before we choose on which side of Pascal’s wager to place our chips.

Comments
@ Pro Hac Vice You'd be very welcome to call in at The Skeptical Zone for tea and sympathy. Your patience with Barry has been an education.Alan Fox
November 26, 2013
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PHV has addressed (not that I would say "answered") my questions. He is no longer in mod.Barry Arrington
November 26, 2013
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F/N: Time for a key word: >> ob·fus·cate (bf-skt, b-fskt) tr.v. ob·fus·cat·ed, ob·fus·cat·ing, ob·fus·cates 1. To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand: "A great effort was made . . . to obscure or obfuscate the truth" (Robert Conquest). 2. To render indistinct or dim; darken: The fog obfuscated the shore. [Latin obfuscre, obfusct-, to darken : ob-, over; see ob- + fuscre, to darken (from fuscus, dark).] obfus·cation n. ob·fusca·tory (b-fsk-tôr, -tr, b-) adj. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.>> KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2013
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Pro Hac Vice, I notice that you dodged the questions in my 24. Into the moderation que with you demonstrate you are willing to argue in good faith by answering them.
Well done Barry. Your final response is unanswerable, literally! I do feel for you. Your whole little empire is crumbling around you. What can you do? "Barry sez so" only works where Barry makes the rules.Alan Fox
November 26, 2013
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PS: LT above, of course means to suggest that God is an imaginary a moral monster equivalent to Hitler, and by extension, those who follow God under a theistic tradition are equivalent to Nazis. That is unspeakably contemptuously dismissive and hateful and inciting thereof, and it is as direct an example of a patent absurdity as can be given. (Cf. here on for a discussion of the common New Atheist inciting rhetoric too often seen on this in our day. On the reasonableness of believing in God, I suggest here on, and yes, that starts from SETS and first principles of right reason -- for good cause as seen above.) Also, he cannot bring himself to accept that there are SETs that are moral, as outlined above, that they point to OUGHT being grounded in an IS that can bear their weight. There is but one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator-God. KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2013
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F/N: Plato, The Laws, Bk X, 2350 years ago on radical relativism, its roots and fruit:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
There have been all too many cases in point across the centuries. Some of them utterly horrific. And once upon a certain time, in at least one such case, the defence offered at trial was, I was just following orders of my superiors (so also projecting that there is no higher common and universal natural law . . . ), in a context where that is all we ultimately have to appeal to. The defence, for cause, was rejected. KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2013
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Barry Arrington, Pro Hac Vice, I notice that you dodged the questions in my 24. Into the moderation que with you demonstrate you are willing to argue in good faith by answering them. In fact, as I explicitly stated in 33 this morning, I’m trying to concentrate on work. No dodging, just prioritization. You have cultivated a nasty reputation as being unable or unwilling to have civil conversations with people who disagree with you; this is certainly consistent with that tendency. It is also a transparent attempt to save face and distract attention from your failure to answer criticisms of your position. There aren’t many questions in 24, and I’ve more or less answered them already. (That’s one thing that indicates that this isn’t a significant point of discussion, but rather a tactical excuse for redirecting the conversation from criticisms you can’t rebut.) Let’s address them:
The set “self-evident moral truths” is not empty if there is at least one self-evident moral truth. There is at least one-self-evident moral truth. Therefore, the set “self-evident moral truths” is not empty. Not circular in the slightest degree.
That’s not a question, but let’s pause to observe the circularity here. The set of X is not empty if I can find at least one X. I assert without argument that at least one X exists. Therefore the set of X is not empty. That is circular.
Do you admit that it is impossible for you to be wrong if you believe the statement “error exists” is true?
Here’s the first question. Yes, I think it’s impossible for the statement “error exists” to be incorrect. I don’t think that does your position any favors, though; “error exists” is trivially true because to deny it is inherently self-refuting. Denying your assertions is not self-refuting. You have to insert lots of additional assumptions, such as your definitions of “absurdity,” to pretend otherwise. And you were unable or unwilling to answer my questions about how the refutation of your principle was “absurd.” Instead you abdicated all argument and fell back on the inherent inerrancy of your own beliefs. Somewhat ironic in light of your earlier statement, “the smug certitude so many materialists display on these pages is unwarranted.”
Do you disagree with the statement “error exists”? Do you admit that if anyone disagreed with that statement they would be wrong? How do you know?
I already answered these questions, but I think you’re looking for an excuse to ban me in order to save face, so I’ll try to be as complete as possible. No, yes, because denying the statement is inherently self-refuting.
Your argument fails because the self-evidence of the assertion “torturing babies for pleasure is evil” does not rest on my assertion. It rests on the fact that the statement is in fact self-evidently true.
Your position isn’t just that it’s self-evident, but that it’s self-evidently objectively true. Self-evident truths can be subjective truths, such as “heights aren’t scary” or “I have five fingers on each hand.” Those aren’t true statements for an acrophobe or an amputee. And of course, we do have only your assertion supporting these “self-evident” truths. Unlike logical self-evident truths, your assertions can’t be objectively tested and denying them isn’t inherently self-refuting. Your assertion that they are self-evident is nothing more than the report of your personal feeling that they are true combined with an inability to support that feeling with external logic. But you could of course be wrong—your inability to articulate an argument could be because you’re only reporting subjective feelings.
2+2=4 has a physical dimension? Do tell.
My thinking was that if someone doubts that 2+2=4, we can test it by putting two items with two items and counting the result. That’s the sort of test that’s impossible with your self-reported moral truths. MF’s example of mathematical error has me rethinking this, though. Complex math problems are both “self-evident” and subject to error, and lots of math problems can’t be represented in the physical world. We can still do the math, though, to objectively test the assertion. That’s something we can’t do with your semi-divine pronouncements. So rather than “physical dimension,” I’d say that “self-evident” logical truths are testable. The test would be, I think, that the denial of a truly self-evident logical truth is self-refuting. Your "self-evident" truths fail that test. I’m no philosopher, so I’m working this out to a certain extent as we go. Kantian Naturalist is leading a higher-level discussion of some of these ideas at TSZ. I may cross-post this response there in case you suppress this response to further save face. Now I really have to get back to work.Pro Hac Vice
November 26, 2013
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If you are a moral relativist, you must admit that you are the moral equivalent of a Nazi. Period. You both do whatever you feel like because you feel like it and because you can.
Some Nazis did not do what they felt like. They rejected their better feelings and instead followed the murderous orders of their superior officers. Some were persuaded by propaganda and centuries old cultural bias. Perhaps, BA and WJM, if you did not fancy yourselves to be the moral superiors of the Nazis, you would then see how awful you appear online and how unreasonable your positions are. You might also realize that your imaginary friend stands in as the worst fuehrer of them allLarTanner
November 26, 2013
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F/N (Attn PHV and MF et al): Back to basics -- rationality (not rationalism) 101 . . . including moral common sense. Try:
3 + 2 = 5 ||| + || = |||||
This is self evident, as one who understands what it asserts (in light of conscious experience of the world) will see it to be true and that it must be true on pain of immediate, patent absurdity. Similarly, for "error exists" [just try to deny this and see where it gets you!], or "I am conscious" -- as rocks have no dreams and those who dream, even if deluded, are conscious. Notice, these are first truths, one does not have turtles all the way down or turtles in a circle or let's arbitrarily pick a turtle and call it no 1. They are not grounded on other claims and chains of arguments, but on insightful rational understanding of the world as we experience it. Nor is it circular to accept such, so any arbitrary "turtle" will do. These, we understand and we see -- if we are willing -- that to deny is patently to be absurd. Which, we are also going to be directly aware of. Try:
3 + 2 = 4 ||| + || = |||| Take away 4 both sides: | = __________, i.e, absurd.
When it comes to start-points for reasoning, we have self-evident first principles of right reason. A good beginning is a bright red ball on a table, A. This effects a world-partition, W = { A | NOT_A } Once we understand that distinct identity, it immediately follows that the law of identity, that of mon-contradiction and that of the excluded middle obtain. A is itself, LOI. A cannot be simultaneously ~A, LNC. Anything, x in W, will be A, or ~ A but not both or neither. These are self evident to the point where the attempt to deny and utter or even think such will have to use the same principles. And don't even bother on trying Q-mech. To get to Q-mech and to assess results in Q-mech, we have to be based on the laws all the way. (If you want more details, cf the Weak argument correctives.) Then, we look at the weak form principle of sufficient reason: for any A we can ask, why A and seek/hope to find a good answer. Which has as corollary, cause and effect, especially the issue of on/off enabling causal factors -- think, Boy Scouts fire triangle. SETs are important and ground rationality. Period. Now, the pivot of debate is moral SETs. Same principles and context apply, noting that a key feature of normal consciousness is conscience. Normal to the point that if one asserts that it is essentially delusional in asserting that we are governed by ought, that would put us in a Plato's Cave absurd world of shadow shows that would bring our general rationality under hyperskeptical doubt. In short, the simplest reply is, anything that implies general de;lusion of a major feature of rational conscuiousness undermines the foundation of rationality and refutes itself. Errors are particular, not global. And of course we come to: it is SET that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster. Just try to directly deny it: no takers, the game is to try to obfuscate, undermine, divert, etc. All are absurd and speak volumes. There are moral SETs, we are quite aware of many of them, and we have to reckon with our being under moral government, as testified by the normally functioning conscience -- as that we live in a world of light, sights and sounds is testified to by other senses. The best explanation is that we live under a moral governor. That is, there is a world-foundational IS that adequately grounds OUGHT. The only serious candidate, being the inherently good, Creator-God. And to me, that is the real root issue, as that cuts across major worldview tastes, preferences and assertions; some of them dressed up in lab coats. So, let's just cut to the chase scene. KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2013
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Congratulations, you’ve proved that subjectivists believe that the Nazis believe the Holocaust was justi4fied. A fairly trivial and useless observation.
No, what I've shown is that there is no principled moral difference between nazis and anyone else under moral subjectivism. If you are a moral relativist, you must admit that you are the moral equivalent of a Nazi. Period. You both do whatever you feel like because you feel like it and because you can. There is no difference other than personal preference, like preferring apple pie to cherry, which is not a substantive difference.William J Murray
November 26, 2013
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PHV, Then there is no principled difference between you and the Nazi. He is inflicting his personal preferences on others because he feels like it and because he can, and you are inflicting your personal preferences on the Nazi because you feel like it and because you can.William J Murray
November 26, 2013
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PHV thanks. I was pleased with the example myself.
Although there may be statements that cannot be made erroneously (I think, error exists)
I think it may be possible to make a sincere mistake saying "error does not exist". It would be a pretty dim thing to assert but you could just about imagine someone coming to that conclusion. Mostly I would just struggle to know what they meant. Anyhow I am happy to make an exception for some logical statements as objective and incorrigible - moral statements clearly don't fall into that category. I fear you will be unable to respond in a practical time if you are in moderation. Barry frequently resorts to banning or moderation if he doesn't like the way you are arguing. It reflects well on you. You can always post at TSZ - many UDers participate there as well.Mark Frank
November 26, 2013
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#36 Barry
Pro Hac Vice, I notice that you dodged the questions in my 24. Into the moderation que with you demonstrate you are willing to argue in good faith by answering them.
You are extraordinary. Why do you assume he was dodging the questions rather than failing to notice them, or not having enough time to do it now, or noticing them and then forgetting, or a thousand other reasons? It isn't physically possible to respond to everything everyone writes in these debates - especially if you are working at the same time as PVH is. You have to prioritise. I can't count the number of times I have asked you questions or given you challenges which you have not responded to. I have not blamed you in the slightest for just these reasons. I don't suppose you have ever moderated yourself. Try it. It is almost indistinguishable from banning.Mark Frank
November 26, 2013
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Pro Hac Vice, I notice that you dodged the questions in my 24. Into the moderation que with you demonstrate you are willing to argue in good faith by answering them.Barry Arrington
November 26, 2013
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MF,
Take the paradigm example – 2+2=4. Very young children are frequently wrong about 2+2=4. They are neither lunatics nor liars. Quite sophisticated adults are wrong about more complicated sums which are true for the same reasons as 2+2=4. It is a question of degree – as the maths get simpler and simpler you get more and more confident – but there is always the possibility you were a bit closer to the young child than you realised. Oddly – there is a class of subjective statements which you cannot get wrong e.g. I think, I hate, I have a pain, I am angry.
This is an excellent example. I wish I'd thought of it. There's nothing about self-evidence that logically precludes error. BA's use of math as a self-evident truth makes that plain, since of course people make math mistakes all the time. Although there may be statements that cannot be made erroneously (I think, error exists), Barry Arrington's moral assumptions don't logically belong in that set as their denial isn't self-refuting. Lumping those assumptions in with that set is itself another unargued, unsupported assumption whose denial is not self-refuting: error exists, and is possible there.Pro Hac Vice
November 26, 2013
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CY, “I’m just right, and I can’t prove it because it’s self-evident but it makes your position incoherent” isn’t much of a starting point for a dialogue between neighbors. To a subjectivist, this position is especially strange given that the real world operates according to subjectivist principles—no matter how much you believe your morals are objective in nature, your neighbor (even if he’s also an objectivist!) will disagree with you sooner or later. You use the tools of moral subjectivism to resolve that disagreement. What if I took the position that you’re self-evidently wrong? No argument needed or possible, it’s just self-evident! Where does that lead us? And if there is that transcendent standard; which I believe is the self-evident source for morality, then all morally right propositions are also self-evident. That’s a problematic position because we know, empirically, that people disagree over “morally right propositions” all the time, based on their conflicting beliefs in inconsistent moral propositions. Possibly they’re all just mistaken in the way they perceive the self-evident truths, but if it’s possible to be so mistaken (such that entire generations and cultures disagree with one another) then there’s no practical objectivity to speak of. Perhaps, as we’ve said before, “self-evident” isn’t the same thing as “objective” when it comes to morality. Perhaps it’s self-evident to a Christian in 1810 Atlanta that slavery isn’t wrong, just as it’s self-evident to a Christian in 2010 Atlanta that it is. “Self-evident” can be subjective. It’s self-evident to some people that heights are terrifying, but that’s subjective. No one has articulated any reason why “self-evident” moral truths would also be objective. I guess it’s just another “sez who” problem. It just is because the objectivist sez so. The objectivist can’t be wrong about that because the objectivist sez so. Ad infinitum.Pro Hac Vice
November 26, 2013
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BA, I have to prioritize work today, so I may not be able to respond in my customary great length. Let me focus on what I think is the most important failure in your "argument" - it's circular. The set 'self-evident moral truths' is not empty if there is at least one self-evident moral truth. There is at least one-self-evident moral truth. Therefore, the set 'self-evident moral truths' is not empty. This is circular because, as you've admitted there's no component argument for the existence of X1, you just assume it a priori. (This is despite your strange attempt to use absurdity as such an argument, which you seem to have abandoned.) In other words, you're assuming a priori that a self-evident moral truth exists, and using it as proof that self-evident moral truths exist. That's circular. For example: The set 'magical space dragons' is not empty if there is at least one magical space dragon. There is at least one magical space dragon. Therefore, the set 'magical space dragons is not empty. If my only argument for the existence of at least one magical space dragons is to assume it as a self-evident truth, then it's a circular argument. Both arguments assume their conclusion--that the set is not empty. Nothing in your post above is really an argument, though, is it? It all just rests on your personal assertions. This is the Grand Sez Who 2013 Edition. Self-evident moral truths exist. Sez who? Barry Arrington. This is one of them. Sez who? Barry Arrington. It's impossible for Barry Arrington to be wrong about that. Sez who? Barry Arrington. It's impossible for Barry Arrington to be wrong about being wrong. Sez who? Barry Arrington. It's impossible for anyone to disagree with Barry Arrington. Sez who? Barry Arrington. Nothing ever resolves out to an argument that exists outside your own head, making it all ultimately a subjective assertion of truth. Your assertions are not arguments. They're impervious to reasoning or logic, being founded ultimately only on your say-so. I think that makes them impossible to refute or to prove. But since they're founded ultimately on your perceptions and feelings, we're still in a subjective and error-prone world. (Identifying truths about which it's impossible to be wrong (assuming arguendo that you've done so) does not establish that your assertions fit within that set. And the one such truth you identified is actually self-evident in that denying it is self-refuting. "Barry Arrington can't be wrong about this" is not self-evident in that way, as there's nothing self-refuting about the statement, "Barry Arrington has mistakenly assumed his personal beliefs are self-evident objective moral truths.")Pro Hac Vice
November 26, 2013
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#29 CY
And if there is that transcendent standard; which I believe is the self-evident source for morality, then all morally right propositions are also self-evident.
It follows from this if there is a single morally right proposition that is not self-evident then there is no transcendent standard. Are you sure you want to stick to it?Mark Frank
November 26, 2013
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WJM, you're still eliding "to whom" in order to make your point sound profound. "That PHV doesn’t like it doesn’t change the fact that he is logically bound to admit that by the criteria he adheres to, the act must be judged as morally justified to the person who believes the act is justified, although not to anyone else." "This puts PHV in the predicament of saying that an act is both X and not X depending on your perspective – moral to one person and immoral to another." Nothing logically absurd about it if you complete the thought. Congratulations, you've proved that subjectivists believe that the Nazis believe the Holocaust was justified. A fairly trivial and useless observation.Pro Hac Vice
November 26, 2013
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WJM #28
I think practical absurdities are good indications that what one is considering is objective in nature and that logical absurdities are proof that something is objective in nature. For instance, it would be practically absurd to hold the view that there is no exterior, objectively existent existent world populated by individuals. It would be practically absurd to hold the view that there is no free will.
To give one example, or even hundreds of examples, of objective statements that when denied lead to practical absurdity is not a proof that “practical absurdities are good indications that what one is considering is objective in nature”. The point is that there are also plenty of subjective statements that when denied lead to practical absurdity. I gave one example – “I like sex”. Another one would be “I can tolerate communicating with other people”.
It would be practically absurd to believe that morality is entirely a matter of subjective personal preferences.
That of course is what we are debating. Although I would not phrase it as entirely a matter of subjective personal preferences.
The question is, why should one cling to a belief that leads to a practical absurdity? If one cannot live as if X is true, and expects that no one can live as if X is true, what is the purpose/benefit of believing in something that leads to practical absurdity?
No reason. I was not arguing that we should believe things that lead to practical absurdity. I was arguing that such beliefs may be subjective.
As to whether or not PHV’s views lead to logical absurdities, that depends. If one holds that what one “ought” to do is only a subjective “feeling”, then what one is necessarily endorsing is that morality is, ultimately, doing whatever one feels like doing, justified by “because I feel like it” and authorized by “because I can”, which means that “torturing infants for pleasure” is morally good for anyone who feels like doing so and can.
That doesn’t follow. The justification for a subjective judgement (the word “feeling” is not quite right – it implies a whimsical lack of deliberation) can be something quite objective and concrete. My subjective judgement that homosexuality is morally perfectly acceptable is justified by the objective fact that no one suffers. I can’t follow the rest of your argument but I assumes it rests on this faulty premise.Mark Frank
November 26, 2013
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PHV,
Except, of course, and only arguably, for this “self-evident” thing. The problem with “self-evident” is that, as StephenB acknowledged, it’s not any kind of argument."
What makes you believe that a self-evident proposition needs an argument? It doesn't. StephenB doesn't need to acknowledge that it's not any kind of argument, because it isn't, and doesn't need to be. It's nature of being self-evident is that it needs no argument. In fact, if it required an argument it wouldn't be self-evident. I'm sure you are aware of this. Please re-read what I stated about deception as it relates to non-contradiction. The reason why we're having this discussion is not because we're trying to argue for the self-evident nature of morality; but because materialists refuses to acknowledge the very basic level of argumentation on these issues; those that begin with the laws of reason. The shoe really is on the other foot. You have stated that StephenB needed to acknowledge something about self-evident truth; but it's not him, it's you. If I missed a part of that conversation, forgive me, but I think I'm right on this one point. The very essential point in this discussion is the issue of having any kind of morality without having an objective standard that transcends the human level. Materialists will always argue in circles on this issue because they can't acknowledge the obvious; that for us to even talk of morality requires that transcendent standard. That we can recognize and acknowledge a dichotomy between "The Good" and evil, is not a human trick that we've conjured up over hundreds of thousands of years of our evolution; but becfause "The Good" actually exists. If it does not exist, even the human evolutionary trick that materialists suppose, would not be possible. We would live in a world where thoughts of right and wrong would be completely non-existent. And if there is that transcendent standard; which I believe is the self-evident source for morality, then all morally right propositions are also self-evident. They don't require an argument. The "extreme" example is not extreme because not enough people believe it is right, but because no-one with a rational mind would believe it is right. It's not an issue of relative belief, but of rational thought that goes back to the basic laws of reason that we all adhere to - even in this discussion; whether or not we acknowledge them.CannuckianYankee
November 26, 2013
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The nature of mathematics is a complicated philosophical debate but my point is that a moral statement has to lead to logical absurdity if this is to be an indication it is objectively true.
MF seems to be saying that while denying the self-evident nature of the moral statement in question might lead to practical absurdity, it doesn't lead to logical absurdity. I think practical absurdities are good indications that what one is considering is objective in nature and that logical absurdities are proof that something is objective in nature. For instance, it would be practically absurd to hold the view that there is no exterior, objectively existent existent world populated by individuals. It would be practically absurd to hold the view that there is no free will. It would be practically absurd to believe that morality is entirely a matter of subjective personal preferences. The question is, why should one cling to a belief that leads to a practical absurdity? If one cannot live as if X is true, and expects that no one can live as if X is true, what is the purpose/benefit of believing in something that leads to practical absurdity? As to whether or not PHV's views lead to logical absurdities, that depends. If one holds that what one "ought" to do is only a subjective "feeling", then what one is necessarily endorsing is that morality is, ultimately, doing whatever one feels like doing, justified by "because I feel like it" and authorized by "because I can", which means that "torturing infants for pleasure" is morally good for anyone who feels like doing so and can. This would put PHV in the position of calling the same thing both "good" and "not good"; by the principle of "because I feel like it" and "because I can", the actions of the perpetrator must be evaluated as "morally good"; yet PHV wishes to eat his cake too and "personally feel" that the act is "wrong". Well, it's not wrong by the standard PHV endorses - "because I feel like it" and "because I can" - so how else can it be judged wrong? That PHV doesn't like it doesn't change the fact that he is logically bound to admit that by the criteria he adheres to, the act must be judged as morally justified. But, what PHV wants is to be able to consider the act "good" by his arbiting moral standards, and "bad" by the same arbiting moral standards - because I feel like it, and because I can. This puts PHV in the predicament of saying that an act is both X and not X - moral and immoral, a logical absurdity. By MF's argument, then, morality must refer to an objective commodity because unless it is objective, it leads to logical absurdity.William J Murray
November 26, 2013
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Barry @ 25:
MARK: “PVH is surely right that it is always possible you are wrong about an objective belief.” BARRY: Mark, is it possible that that statement is wrong?
Yes - so what? It a statement I am arguing for. I am capable of error. That by itself does not prove it wrong. Does it?  
MARK: “Very young children are frequently wrong about 2+2=4. They are neither lunatics nor liars. Quite sophisticated adults are wrong about more complicated sums which are true for the same reasons as 2+2=4.” BARRY: Good heavens man, are you really saying that since a newborn infant does not know that 2+2=4 then 2+2=4 is not self evidently true? Get a grip. This statement demonstrates again that you do not understand the first thing about self-evident propositions. A self-evidently true statement is one that merely by understanding it one immediately knows it must be true. If the first part of the formula is missing (i.e., merely understanding it), then it is not self-evidently true. To your statement 2+2=4 is self-evidently true to all persons with the mental capacity to understand it. is not a self-evidently true statement. KF has explained this to you before. You obviously were not paying attention.
I don’t think I mentioned new born children. There are, believe it or not, children at an age where they understand 2+2=4 but it is not immediately obvious it is true. Just as we both understand 26,564+68,222=94,786 but it is not immediately obvious it is true. After all the only difference between the two is the level of complexity.  I can see you haven’t spent much time teaching infants!Mark Frank
November 26, 2013
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I think there are some different things getting muddled together in this discussion. 1) Are there beliefs that sane people cannot possibly be wrong about? This depends, like all statements with the word “possible”, on the nature of the possibility. But if we take a strong form – can never be wrong under any conceivable circumstances – then I would argue this is only true of beliefs about your own mental state.  Any objective beliefs are by definition beliefs about something which is independent of your beliefs and your beliefs might simply not match up to that something. 2) Are there objective beliefs for which you cannot argue or give evidence? If there are such beliefs then if someone has an opposite belief it kind of limits the discussion. Personally I have never come across a convincing example but maybe it doesn’t matter because what really matters is: 3) Are there objective beliefs which denying them leads to absurdity (whether or not there other ways or arguing for them or giving evidence)? Clearly there are such beliefs – reductio ad absurdum is an accepted method of proof. Note it is still quite possible to be wrong about such beliefs – reductio ad absurdum can be hard – and it may that there are other methods of arguing for such beliefs – that is independent. The key here is what kind of absurdity? 1) It might be impractical at a personal level. It would be extremely hard to live your life denying the belief that objects fall to the ground if not supported or that other people mean the same as you when they use a word etc etc. This does prove the belief is objective. It would be quite impractical to deny the belief that you are in pain when you are. 2) It might be impractical if everyone denied it (but practical for you to deny it alone). So you might deny the belief you are capable of sex and just about function,  but if everyone believed it society would collapse. Again such beliefs can be subjective – you might deny the belief that you like sex. If everyone believed it society would be in deep trouble. 3) It might be a logical absurdity. This seems to be the only contender for showing the belief is objectively true. So denying 2+2=4 can quite quickly to a logical absurdity such as 0=2. The nature of mathematics is a complicated philosophical debate but my point is that a moral statement has to lead to logical absurdity if this is to be an indication it is objectively true.  At the moment all the proposed absurdities are practical absurdities which can easily arise from denying commonly held subjective beliefs.Mark Frank
November 26, 2013
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Mark Frank @ 20: “PVH is surely right that it is always possible you are wrong about an objective belief.” Mark, is it possible that that statement is wrong? “Very young children are frequently wrong about 2+2=4. They are neither lunatics nor liars. Quite sophisticated adults are wrong about more complicated sums which are true for the same reasons as 2+2=4.” Good heavens man, are you really saying that since a newborn infant does not know that 2+2=4 then 2+2=4 is not self evidently true? Get a grip. This statement demonstrates again that you do not understand the first thing about self-evident propositions. A self-evidently true statement is one that merely by understanding it one immediately knows it must be true. If the first part of the formula is missing (i.e., merely understanding it), then it is not self-evidently true. To your statement 2+2=4 is self-evidently true to all persons with the mental capacity to understand it. 26,564+68,222=94,786 is not a self-evidently true statement. KF has explained this to you before. You obviously were not paying attention.Barry Arrington
November 26, 2013
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PHV @ 18: “Then what’s the argument you’re making from self-evident propositions?” “That’s circular.” It should alarm you that in order to defend your position you’ve descended into tedious, obviously false blithering The set “self-evident moral truths” is not empty if there is at least one self-evident moral truth. There is at least one-self-evident moral truth. Therefore, the set “self-evident moral truths" is not empty. Not circular in the slightest degree. “You keep saying that it’s impossible to be wrong, but that’s another judgment that’s subject to error.” More blithering. There are indeed certain statements that are certainly true. Consider the following statement: “Error exists.” To deny the truth of the statement is self-referentially incoherent. Therefore, it is impossible to be wrong about it. It is self-evidently true. Do you admit that it is impossible for you to be wrong if you believe the statement “error exists” is true? Mark Frank’s noxious odor example is rife with error. “I don’t like the smell of X” is simply not in the same epistemic category as “error exists.” “self-evident opinions” I can’t believe you used that phrase. “That’s a set of two “self-evident moral truths upon which there is unanimous agreement” in your opinion, isn’t it?” More tedious blithering. You are moving the goal posts. The “set” we were discussing previously was the complete set of all self-evident truths, about which there is not unanimous agreement. Now we are talking about a different set, the set of these two specific self-evident truths. To say that there is not unanimous agreement about the first does not contradict the statement that there is unanimous agreement about the second. At this point you have descended into the intellectual equivalent of “wack-a-mole.” “As for your belief that no one could disagree with you, how do you know?” Because, by definition, no one can disagree with a self-evidently true statement. Do you disagree with the statement “error exists”? Do you admit that if anyone disagreed with that statement they would be wrong? How do you know? “For example, we can swap out . . .” Nonsense. Here is your argument: 1. Barry says there is at least one self-evident moral truth. 2. I can demonstrate that Barry’s statement is false by asserting that a non-self-evident moral truth is in fact self-evidently true, thereby demonstrating that merely asserting that something is self-evident does not make it self-evident. Your argument fails because the self-evidence of the assertion “torturing babies for pleasure is evil” does not rest on my assertion. It rests on the fact that the statement is in fact self-evidently true. “I keep coming back to your odd claim that it’s impossible for you to be wrong . . .” Yes you do. You say it is possible for every proposition to be wrong. Is it possible for that proposition to be wrong? “Is 2+2 still 4? Yes, it is. . . . But that doesn’t apply to moral truths, which don’t have any physical dimension.” 2+2=4 has a physical dimension? Do tell.Barry Arrington
November 26, 2013
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One can subjectively believe that the statement "it is immoral to torture infants for personal pleasure" to be objectively true, or they can believe it to be a matter of personal preference - subjectively true for those that agree with it. This leads to absurdity (as defined above) because PHV cannot act as if it is only a matter of personal preference; PHV and all non-sociopaths will act as if it is self-evidently true and binding, requiring no evidence or argument, and as if all humans are under a universal and binding obligation to not do such a thing and to intervene if such a thing is occurring. We would consider anyone who knew about it but did nothing to be evil as well; we wouldn't think "well, they didn't feel like intervening, so ...". The absurdity lies in intellectually believing something that is utterly irreconcilable (rationally speaking) with how one must behave in real life.William J Murray
November 26, 2013
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So, long story short: PHV's perspective that it is moral to enforce one's personal preferences on others for no ultimate reasons beyond "because I feel like it" and "because I can" is the very essence of absurdity that Mr. Arrington refers to. Any sane person would agree that "because I feel like it" and "because I can" are not sound moral principles. Only a sociopath can live that way. One's foundational premise of morality cannot be "personal preference" without it leading to absurdity, which means that you believe something that is logically irreconcilable with real behavior in real life.William J Murray
November 26, 2013
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That one might subjectively be wrong about a thing they subjectively believe to be objective in nature is entirely irrelevant. Like the belief that what one is experiencing is not a delusion, but is actually an exterior world with other actual individuals like themselves with thoughts and beliefs, there are things one must act as if true regardless of if they can intellectually consider that belief potentially not true. I can intellectually consider the possibility that 4-sided triangles exist; that doesn't mean I should, or can, live as if 4-sided triangles can or do exist. The two competing arguments here can be summed up thusly: 1. I subjectively believe, and may be in error, that X is a subjective commodity; 2. I subjectively believe, and may be in error, that X is an objective commodity. A third statement in consideration is: 3. I subjectively believe, and may be in error, that X is self-evidently true. PHV is making the case that because one cannot be absolutely certain that X is an objective commodity, then there is no reason to believe it is. Unfortunately, there's no way to be certain of just about anything other than "I exist", and some people intellectually talk themselves out of that (although I wonder who they think they are convincing). That we subjectively believe everything we believe, and may ultimately be in error about any of it, is simply a fundamental aspect of our existences - but, we cannot live that way. We must think, live and act as if we know things to be true; we must think, act and live as if some things objectively exist, even though there's no way to absolutely prove it, and even though other people may disagree with us. Mr. Arrington rightly says that a self-evidently true statement (not just an obviously true statement) is a statement that if denied leads to absurdity (via logical inference from that position). Holding that one is not experiencing an exterior world populated with real people leads to the absurdity of having to act as if what you believe is false every second of the day. That's the definition of absurd. IOW, you must think and behave as if X is true, but intellectually you deny that X is true, and insist that not-X is true. That is absurdity. Let's look at the definition of absurd from Merriam-Webster:
1: ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous 2 : having no rational or orderly relationship to human life : meaningless ; also : lacking order or value
PHV, in another thread here, has said that he/she thinks and acts as if morality is both binding and actionable on others - meaning, that PHV judges the behavior of others according to his/her own morality and has the right to act (intervene) in accordance with that morality. Here we have PHV intellectually describing morality as nothing more than sets of personal preferences individuals have, but PHV is acting as if his/her personal preferences are binding and actionable on others - IOW, as if those preferences provide an objective grounds by which to judge the behavior of others and provide some kind of objective justification for intervening in the personal affairs of others. If one holds X to be nothing more than subjective personal preference, like strongly preferring apple pie to cherry, one doesn't hold that eating apple pie is "wrong" and that other people shouldn't eat it it and that they have the right to stop other people from eating apple pie because it's a subjective, personal preference. IF one holds X to be an objectively valid commodity, however, then X is no longer just a matter of personal preference, and so one is authorized by that view to judge the acts of others as "wrong" and are justified in intervening. However, PHV is attempting to argue that X is in fact nothing more than personal pereference & that his personal preferences give him the capacity to judge the behavior of others and intervene when he feels like it. This principle of "right" of personal preference empowers PHV to judge others and intervene on nothing more than the whims of personal preference, whether it be about a moral issue or what kind of pie someone is ordering at a restaurant. PHV attempts to provide cover for this absurdity by claiming that the very sense of "wrongness" he/she feels in reference to some acts others commit is itself nothing more than a subjective feeling, but that is where PHV is attempt a "compatibilist" redefinition of the term "wrong". The sense that someone else is doing something "wrong" is not rationally extractable from what one holds to be nothing more than personal preference. When others choose apple pie over cherry, there is no sense of something "wrong" occurring, that the person should be stopped from eating apple pie. It is only in context of an assumed objective judging framework of some sort that an act can be viewed as "wrong". PHV holds his/her own preferences as binding on others, which means PHV is acting as if his/her own preferences are objective in nature, even while intellectually framing them as subjective. They are, of course, subjectively held, but are acted on by PHV as if they were objective and binding on others, giving PHV moral "right" and "obligations" that are actionable on others. Of course, the absurdity in this position is evident. Nobody in their right mind would claim that judging others as good or evil according to what one believes to be nothing more than personal preference ("enjoying apple pie is evil), and then intervening in their personal lives based on nothing more than personal preference, is a good system of morality and proper behavior. No sane or good person lives or thinks that way. No sane or good person would submit to another person intervening in their lives under a principle or justification no more substantive that "because I felt like it". This is the absurdity of PHV's position once he/she denies that there is at least one self-evidently true moral statement from which one can accept that morality refers to an objective, binding commodity that gives him/her the substantive capacity to judge the behavior of others and the right, even obligation, to intervene in certain cases. PHV's "morality" descends into "because I felt like it" and intervening "because I can", which only sociopaths actually act as if true. PHV's position is the very essence of what Mr. Arrington said would be the case if the self-evidently true is denied: a descent into absurdity.William J Murray
November 26, 2013
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A paradox just struck me. PVH is surely right that it is always possible you are wrong about an objective belief.  Take the paradigm example - 2+2=4. Very young children are frequently  wrong about 2+2=4. They are neither lunatics nor liars. Quite sophisticated adults are wrong about more complicated sums which are true for the same reasons as 2+2=4. It is a question of degree – as the maths get simpler and simpler you get more and more confident – but there is always the possibility you were a bit closer to the young child than you realised.  Oddly – there is a class of subjective statements which you cannot get wrong e.g. I think, I hate, I have a pain, I am angry.Mark Frank
November 26, 2013
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