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William Munny: Ubermensch

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We have art for the same reason we put windows in houses. We need to see outside. Just as a window allows us to see the physical world outside of the narrow confines of the walls surrounding us, art allows us to see out into the world of ideas, and sometimes the view is appalling. I was reminded of this a few days ago when a friend told me he had not watched more than one episode of Breaking Bad because the squalor and violence depicted was unbearably depressing. He said he finally grasped why the program might be worth watching further when he read my post, Walter White: Consequentialist. Yes, the squalor and violence in that series were awful, but they served the artist’s purpose, which was to examine an ordinary man’s spiral into ever-increasing evil once he decided the end could justify the means.

Great art is not always beautiful. When an artist examines an ugly idea, his art will reflect that ugliness. Consider the movie Unforgiven, Clint Eastwood’s best film. If you like your existential nihilism served especially bleak and full of despair, you can hardly do better than this. In a small Wyoming town two cowboys disfigure a young prostitute. Denied justice by the local sheriff, “Little Bill” Daggett, the residents of the brothel pool their money and offer a reward for the death of the cowboys. William Munny is an aging gunfighter turned Kansas farmer, who once killed women and children during a train robbery. Munny, his friend Ned, and the “Kid” travel to Wyoming, kill the cowboys, and collect the reward. As he is about to return home, Munny learns Little Bill has captured Ned and tortured him to death. Munny goes back into town where Ned’s body is on display outside the saloon. This enrages Munny, and he goes in and kills the saloon keeper, Little Bill and several of his deputies. Munny walks out, warns the townspeople to give Ned a proper burial, and the movie ends as he rides off into the rainy night.

Two lines of dialogue and the epilogue capture perfectly the nihilism at the heart of the film. In the final scene Munny is standing over a wounded Little Bill Daggett about to administer the coup de grâce. Daggett says, “I don’t deserve this . . . to die like this.” Munny replies, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it,” and shoots him dead.  A few minutes later at the end of the film a text epilogue scrolls across the screen.  It says that Munny moved away from Kansas, “some said to San Francisco, where it was rumored he prospered in dry goods.”

Munny is a Nietzschen “ubermensch,” the nihilist superman. Deserving has nothing to do with it indeed, because justice is an illusion, part of the outdated “slave morality” that does not bind him. God is dead. There is no good. There is no evil. There are only the strong and the weak, and at that moment Munny has the gun, and Daggett is disarmed, wounded and lying on the floor. Munny has killed women and children. He has just murdered an unarmed saloonkeeper and several deputies in a fit of pique. Now he’s going to murder Daggett in cold blood. And none of these things will prevent him from moving to San Francisco where he will prosper in dry goods.

Our materialist friends say that “good” and “evil” are entirely subjective concepts. Frequent commenter Pro Hac Vice puts it this way:

I don’t believe “bad” is an objective statement, any more than “tasty” is. “It is tasty” is a subjective statement. So is “it is bad,” if you start from the assumption that “bad” is a subjective quality.

When I say Brussels sprouts are tasty, I mean nothing more than that I prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. It is an entirely subjective statement. PHV is right about that. He might say that Brussels sprouts are “bad,” and if he did he would not be heaping moral opprobrium on Brussels sprouts. He would merely be saying that he does not prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. Is there any standard by which we could somehow arbitrate between my view of Brussels sprouts and PHV’s view to determine once and for all if they are good or bad? Of course not. There is no standard to judge between subjective preferences.

Will Munny murdered women and children for personal gain. He murdered two cowboys for the reward money. He killed an unarmed saloonkeeper. He murdered several deputies, and in the end he murdered Bill Daggett. Let’s call all of these things “Munny’s Crimes.”

I am certain PHV would say that Munny’s Crimes are “bad.” I am equally certain that he would say that when he asserts that Munny’s Crimes are “bad,” he is using the word “bad” in the same way he used it when he referred to Brussels sprouts. In other words, all he is saying is that he personally, for whatever reason, does not prefer to commit Munny’s Crimes. An inevitable logical corollary to PHV’s position is that if someone else (let’s call him “Frank”) were to say that Munny’s Crimes were good, PHV could say that he personally disagrees with Frank. He might even say he strongly disagrees with Frank. But he cannot logically say that some standard exists to arbitrate between his view on the matter and Frank’s view. After all, whether Munny’s Crimes were good or bad is, under PHV’s rules of analysis, nothing more than an expression of personal preference, ultimately no different from whether to eat Brussels sprouts or leave them on the plate.

Now someone might say PHV’s conclusions are illogical, but they would be mistaken. PHV’s conclusions follow from his premises like night follows day. Let us examine his argument:

1. Particles in motion are all that exist or ever have existed.

2. This means there is no God.

3. Since God does not exist, transcendent ethical norms are not possible.

4. It follows that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are not saying that it is a transgression against an objective standard of ethical norms, because no such standard exists.

5. The only other possibility is that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are merely expressing a subjective personal preference, i.e., we do not prefer the behavior.

6. Therefore, when we say, for example, that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “bad” we are saying nothing more than that we do not prefer such a thing.

7. Finally, if someone else says that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “good,” while we may disagree with them, there is no objective standard by which our views could be arbitrated.

Dostoevsky, though a Christian, would agree that PHV’s premises lead to his conclusions: In Brothers Karamazov he wrote:

‘But,’ I asked, ‘how will man be after that? Without God and the future life? It means everything is permitted now, one can do anything?’ ‘Didn’t you know?’ he said. And he laughed. ‘Everything is permitted to the intelligent man,’ he said.”

We see, then, that PHV is correct. If God does not exist, if materialism is true, if the entire universe consists of nothing but particles in motion, then the concept of an objective standard for ethical norms is meaningless. Indeed, the very concept of libertarian free will is meaningless, and if libertarian free will – the ability to have done otherwise – does not exist, no one can be held morally responsible for their behavior because, by definition, they could not have done otherwise. As Munny says to Daggett, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.” And why shouldn’t Munny move to San Francisco and prosper in dry goods in spite of all of his crimes? After all, he has done nothing evil.

If we heard that a hairy ape in Africa killed a dozen other hairy apes with a rock, we wouldn’t demand “justice” for the dead hairy apes. Munny is nothing but a jumped up hairless ape who happens to be cleverer with firearms than the hairless apes he killed. On a materialist worldview, there is no difference between the hairy ape and the hairless ape, and the fact that our subjective reactions to the two massacres might differ cannot be based on anything other than pure sentiment, certainly not because there is a moral difference between the two acts.

Richard Dawkins summarized the theme of Unforgiven in his River Out of Eden:

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Munny’s innocent victims got hurt, and he got lucky in the dry goods business.

We see then that PHV’s argument is perfectly valid, even airtight, given his premises. But is his argument sound? Now that, dear readers, is another question, and the answer to that question depends on whether PHV’s first two premises are true, and there are many good reasons to believe they are not. The self-evident existence of transcendent moral truth is one such reason. I have stated several times in these pages that it is self-evident that torturing infants for personal pleasure is evil. By “self-evident” I mean that to deny the proposition leads to absurdity. By “absurd” I mean “the quality or condition of existing in a meaningless and irrational world.” Mark Frank has asked me several times what “absurdity” results from denying that it is evil to torture infants for pleasure. I have answered him several times, and I will answer him again: If torturing infants for personal pleasure is not evil, then the universe is absurd – the entire world is meaningless and irrational.

In the quotation above, Richard Dawkins insists the universe is, in a word, absurd. StephenB, KF, I and others have been arguing that the universe is not ultimately meaningless. We believe that our intense intuition that torturing infants for pleasure is evil in all places at all times for all people is not merely a strongly held personal preference. We argue that our intuition is based on our perception of a fundamental reality that is part of the very warp and woof of the universe. God is not just good; he is very goodness. When he created the universe his goodness pervaded his creation leading him to announce “it is good,” and even in the universe’s current fallen state, the Creator’s goodness continues to pervade it, and we perceive that goodness. Indeed, it is impossible not to perceive it. There are some things that we cannot not know. That torturing infants for pleasure is evil – that it transgresses the moral law woven into the fabric of the universe – is one such thing.

There are many reasons other than the existence of self-evident moral truth to believe that God exists. We admit, however, that none of these reasons to believe establishes that God exists with apodictic certainty. It follows that there is some possibility that PHV’s first two premises are correct and that the universe is ultimately meaningless and irrational. But just as we cannot be absolutely certain we are right, PHV cannot be absolutely certain we are wrong. Even Dawkins is honest enough not to insist he has certain knowledge about God. He says only that there is “probably” no God. The smug certitude so many materialists display on these pages is unwarranted, and it follows that we should be very careful indeed before we choose on which side of Pascal’s wager to place our chips.

Comments
(That is to say, our personal beliefs differ in general--I don't mean to say that I actually believe it's objectively morally wrong to claim one's subjective beliefs are actually objective truths.) I keep coming back to your odd claim that it's impossible for you to be wrong about this. How do you know when it's impossible to be wrong about something? And how do you know you're not wrong about that? In other words, let's say A is the belief in something and B is the belief that you can't possibly be wrong about A. You could be wrong about B, in which case you could be wrong about A. So to be sure about A we need C, the proposition that you couldn't possibly be wrong about B. But you could be wrong about C, so we D as well... It's an infinite regression. Logically you must be susceptible to error. I don't see any logical way to say, "I can't be wrong about this belief" other than empirically testing it. Since we can't do that, we're left with your feeling that you can't be wrong. And we know that our feelings can in fact be wrong! Does that apply to mathematical and logical propositions? I don't know. I don't think we are wrong about those truths, but we could be. (Since our belief to the contrary is a B, and subject to its own error, etc.) I think we can say provisionally that those are correct, since we can test them in the objective physical world. (Is this rock not this rock? No, it is itself. Is 2+2 still 4? Yes, it is.) But that doesn't apply to moral truths, which don't have any physical dimension.Pro Hac Vice
November 25, 2013
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Again, you demonstrate you do not understand. You do not argue “for” self-evident propositions. You argue “from” self-evident propositions.
Then what’s the argument you’re making from self-evident propositions? Earlier you said this: My argument is that if there is even one self-evident moral truth, then the objective nature of morality is established. There is at least one self-evident moral truth: torturing infants for personal pleasure is evil. Therefore, the objective nature of morality is established. If that's the argument you keep referring back to, then it's perfectly circular: If one example of X exists, then X as a category exists. X1 is a self-evident example of X. Therefore X as a category exists. X1, your torture principle, can't be demonstrated or argued, only taken as a given. (Anything else would be an argument.) The argument for X is only true if you accept the a priori assertion that the example X1 exists, which assumes that the category X exists. That's circular. It's also problematic since the "self-evident" nature of your exemplar moral truth rests on your subjective perceptions. We know subjective perceptions can be wrong, so how do you check yours? You keep saying that it's impossible to be wrong, but that's another judgment that's subject to error (see below). Another problem with your argument is that it assumes that "self-evident" and "objective" are synonymous. But they obviously aren't. Mark Frank used the example earlier that certain smells are self-evidently noxious to an individual--there's no argument for it, they just are. But that's not an objective, transcendent truth. Different people can and do have different self-evident opinions.
It is not possible for (2) to be false. You know that. …. I have never said [that ‘people who claim to disagree with your articulation of self-evident moral truths are lying’]. I have said that if anyone says that the holocaust was not self-evidently evil, they are a liar. I stand by that. I have said that if anyone says that torturing a baby for personal pleasure is not self-evidently evil they are a liar. I stand by that.
I see two irreconcilable positions. Earlier you said that you that it’s not true that “there is a set of self-evident moral truths upon which there is unanimous agreement.” But here and elsewhere you have identified at least two supposedly self-evident moral truths about which you say there is unanimous agreement (although people supposedly lie about it). That’s a set of two “self-evident moral truths upon which there is unanimous agreement” in your opinion, isn’t it? As for your belief that no one could disagree with you, how do you know? Not because of a logical argument, which you say is impossible. So how? Your belief is (a) subjective and (b) no guarantee against error. People believe factually incorrect things all the time, sometimes strongly enough to kill or die for them. Your response is to identify logical truths and point out that it’s not possible to be wrong about them. But saying that there are some beliefs about which you can’t be in error isn’t the same thing as showing that this belief belongs in that set. For example, we can swap out the proposition in your claim: It is self-evident that claiming your own subjective moral beliefs are actually objective beliefs shared by all is evil. By “self-evident” I mean that to deny the proposition leads to absurdity. By “absurd” I mean “the quality or condition of existing in a meaningless and irrational world.” If insisting your subjective moral beliefs are actually universal objective truths is not evil, then the universe is absurd – the entire world is meaningless and irrational. There is no way to say the statement is true or false without resorting to our personal beliefs, which differ.Pro Hac Vice
November 25, 2013
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PHV @ 14: “But I have trouble squaring that with your previous comments, in earlier threads, implying that people who claim to disagree with your articulation of self-evident moral truths are lying.” I have never said that. I have said that if anyone says that the holocaust was not self-evidently evil, they are a liar. I stand by that. I have said that if anyone says that torturing a baby for personal pleasure is not self-evidently evil they are a liar. I stand by that. “. . .StephenB, who takes the position that people can’t disagree with him in good faith?” I am certain StephenB takes the position that people can disagree with him in good faith about some of his positions and not others. For example, if StephenB were to assert that it is evil to torture babies for pleasure, he would say that no one can disagree with him in good faith (and he would be right). If he were to assert that pistachio ice cream is tasty, he would say anyone could disagree with him in good faith. You have misunderstood StephenB, as you have misunderstood me. “I think it’s relevant that fallible humans can and will make mistakes.” Certainly they will. But the nature of a self-evidently true statement is that to understand it is immediately to perceive its truth. I am fallible and I make mistakes. Nevertheless, I cannot be mistaken that 2+2=4. I am fallible and I make mistakes. Nevertheless, I cannot be mistaken that torturing babies for personal pleasure is evil. “So how do you check yourself?” Consider the following propositions: 1. 2+2=4. True. How do you check yourself? 2. For any proposition A, A cannot be true and false at the same time and in the same sense. True. It follows from the law of identity. But on what does the law of identity rest? The law of identity cannot be demonstrated. How do you check yourself? You keep coming back to “feelings.” I perceive the law of identity to be true even though there is absolutely no argument that I can make to demonstrate that it is true. Do you think that my belief in the truth of the law of identity is also based on my “feelings” because I cannot check myself?Barry Arrington
November 25, 2013
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PHV @ 13: “If (2) were false, I think we’d agree the results would be horrible.” This statement demonstrates (again) that you do not understand the concept of self-evident truth. It is like saying “if 2+2 were to equal 5 it would not make sense” or “if a circle were square it would no longer be round.” It is not possible for (2) to be false. You know that. “Why would there be no meaning to the world under (6)? Why would there be no rationality?” You are, again, asking me to argue “for” a self-evident proposition. How many times do I have to tell you that is not possible?Barry Arrington
November 25, 2013
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PHV @ 12: “What’s the argument you’re making, if it’s not an argument for self-evident propositions?” Again, you demonstrate you do not understand. You do not argue “for” self-evident propositions. You argue “from” self-evident propositions. “I think that overlooks the Euthyphro dilemma . . .” As has been explained many times, the Euthyphro dilemma is a false dilemma. “But that [the existence of God] doesn’t solve the dilemma in the mortal world, does it? Who speaks for God?” I do not speak for God. God speaks for himself. One way he has done that is to make us aware of self-evident moral truths. “But your list of “self-evident” moral truths won’t match up with other believers’ “self-evident” moral truths.” Back to the divergent lists are we? I’ve already demonstrated (in a way that you agreed was reasonable) that my argument does not depend on the existence of such a list. Why beat that horse again? “Again, it’s not just a question of whether objective moral truths exist.” Then what are we arguing about? “Can we define them?” We can define at least one. “Can we distinguish them from our subjective beliefs and preferences?” We can distinguish at least one from our subjective beliefs and preferences. “Can we do those things objectively, despite our human fallibility?” We can do those things with respect to at least one despite our human fallibility. “If we have to wait to die and see what God . . .” Red herring. We don’t. “And if God is speaking to us while we live . . .” He is. “. . .we’re back to trying to distinguish His objective words from our subjective perceptions.” Which I have demonstrated we can do in at least one instance. “How do you reliably distinguish a factually objective moral truth from one that you merely feel is objectively true, especially given human fallibility?” The question is meaningless, so I can’t answer it. I will say this. Some moral truths are self-evident. You can identify them by the fact that they are self-evident. Others are not.Barry Arrington
November 25, 2013
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To clarify the sequence of statements, I wrote #12 before reading #11. You have clarified that you are not trying to say that you're not taking the position that there "is a set of self-evident moral truths upon which there is unanimous agreement." (My previous comment, #13, goes to what you say is your position.) But I have trouble squaring that with your previous comments, in earlier threads, implying that people who claim to disagree with your articulation of self-evident moral truths are lying. Am I wrong about that? Do you disagree with StephenB, who takes the position that people can't disagree with him in good faith? If not, then I think you are in fact, taking the position that there is a set of self-evident moral truths on which there is unanimous agreement (even if some people perversely deny that they agree with you). And in either case, I think it's relevant that fallible humans can and will make mistakes. Consequently, how can you ever know that you've divined even one self-evident objective moral truth? It can't be through argument--you've said they can't be proved that way. And if it's just through feelings, well, we misinterpret feelings all the time. So how do you check yourself?Pro Hac Vice
November 25, 2013
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Please let me know if this is an accurate statement of your position: 1. There is at least one self-evident moral truth. 2. One such truth is that it is morally wrong to torture babies for fun. 3. It's not possible to prove (1) or (2) through argument, because they are self-evident. 4. A truth is self-evident if denying it leads to absurdity. 5. "Absurdity" means the quality or condition of existing in a meaningless and irrational world. 6. If (2) were not true, the world would be meaningless and irrational. You seem to vacillate between "there's no way to argue this" and trying to make an argument. Insofar as there's any attempt at a logical argument here, I think it falls (at least) with your attempt to use "absurdity" as proof of or a definition of self-evidence. If (2) were false, I think we'd agree the results would be horrible. (I'd make that call subjectively, you'd do so using your perceived objective standard.) But "absurd" needs some additional meaning for your progression to hang together logically, and I'm not seeing it. Why would there be no meaning to the world under (6)? Why would there be no rationality?Pro Hac Vice
November 25, 2013
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You've said both that "one cannot argue for a self-evident proposition," and that I "still have not grasped the argument [you've] made." What's the argument you're making, if it's not an argument for self-evident propositions?
There is an objective actor to judge. God. If God exists (and as I have argued, there are many good reasons to believe he does, Dr. Torley has just posted several of them), your argument fails.
I think that overlooks the Euthyphro dilemma, as it is usually understood. Setting that aside, sure, if there's an ultimate objective actor (God counts!) then it could call the balls from strikes and be our external, objective arbiter. But that doesn't solve the dilemma in the mortal world, does it? Who speaks for God? Barry Arrington? But your list of "self-evident" moral truths won't match up with other believers' "self-evident" moral truths. We're back to subjectively trying to persuade one another. Again, it's not just a question of whether objective moral truths exist. It's a question of what they are. Can we define them? Can we distinguish them from our subjective beliefs and preferences? Can we do those things objectively, despite our human fallibility? If we have to wait to die and see what God says, then in the meantime we're still living in a subjective world. And if God is speaking to us while we live, then we're back to trying to distinguish His objective words from our subjective perceptions. It sounds like now you're saying you can't do that via arguments and logic, unless I misunderstand you. (In which case, though, what's this absurdity thing all about? Is it not an attempt to prove self-evidence?) Would you mind answering my earlier question? How do you reliably distinguish a factually objective moral truth from one that you merely feel is objectively true, especially given human fallibility?Pro Hac Vice
November 25, 2013
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I thought we were making progress when we had this exchange: Barry: “My argument is that if there is even one self-evident moral truth, then the objective nature of morality is established.”
PHV: “That seems reasonable.”
But I guess not:
PHV: “Why would it [i.e., the thought experiment proposed above] not establish that people perceive different sets of “self-evident” moral truths?”
Your thought experiment might well establish that there is not unanimous agreement on the set of self-evident moral truths. I never argued there was. My argument does not rest on the existence of unanimous agreement on the set of self-evident moral truths.
PHV: “why would that not be a serious rebuttal to what I take to be your position, that the proof of objective moral standards is that they are self-evident?”
Because there is a fundamental difference between the following two propositions: 1. There is a set of self-evident moral truths upon which there is unanimous agreement. 2. There is at least one self-evident moral truth. The first is not true and my argument is not based on it. The second one is true and my argument rests on that truth.Barry Arrington
November 25, 2013
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“I think I understand you, although I could be wrong.” No, you don’t understand. If you understood you would not have proposed the thought experiment that you proposed. “If you have an argument intended to stand on its own . . .” You have demonstrated yet again that you do not understand the nature of self-evident truth. One cannot argue for a self-evident proposition. It is either accepted or denied. If it is denied, the denier is either a liar or a lunatic. In either case, it makes no sense to argue with him. Someone once said that if a man says it is morally acceptable to murder his mother, he does not need an argument. He needs correction. “Without any objective actor to judge among . . .” There is an objective actor to judge. God. If God exists (and as I have argued, there are many good reasons to believe he does, Dr. Torley has just posted several of them), your argument fails. “You don’t seem to be able to articulate any indicia of actual objectivity, such as an arbiter separate from yourself capable of rendering objective, perceptible judgment . . .” Of course, I have. God. “I think you’d need a much better way of demonstrating “self-evident” truths.” How many times do I have say that a self-evident truth cannot be demonstrated. “This is almost entirely wrong.” I will let the readers determine who is right or wrong. I note that you have not refuted my argument. You’ve only repeated your own. How do you know everyone would consider the example extreme? Because you personally consider the example extreme and assume everyone would agree with you (and of course they would). In other words, you most certainly did not make an empirical determination. You made an assumption about how an empirical determination would come out. And what is your assumption based upon? It is based on your value judgment that the example is extreme. Which, again, gets back to where Cannuckian started.Barry Arrington
November 25, 2013
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Actually, let me amend my first paragraph. I don't understand why you think the thought experiment would be irrelevant. Perhaps I don't understand your argument after all. Why would it not establish that people perceive different sets of "self-evident" moral truths? Or if it would, why would that not be a serious rebuttal to what I take to be your position, that the proof of objective moral standards is that they are self-evident?Pro Hac Vice
November 25, 2013
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That you would propose this thought experiments indicates that you still have not grasped the argument I’ve made, far less refuted it.
I think I understand you, although I could be wrong. I don’t think it’s possible to refute your argument, which seems to revolve around what you feel to be self-evident. Your feelings are your feelings, and not something that can be refuted. If you have an argument intended to stand on its own outside your own perceptions, then I can’t articulate it and don’t understand it. My biggest stumbling block is your definition of "self-evident." Your use of absurdity as a test seems circular and subjective, so I'm not sure if you intend it to be a logical argument that's accessible to people who don't share your subjective feelings.
Your argument appears to be that since we cannot have perfect agreement on the set of self-evident moral truths, there are no self-evident moral truths. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.
As I’ve said before, including in this thread, it is not my position that “there are no self-evident moral truths.” I believe it’s possible for objective moral truths to exist. I just don’t think they’re objectively definable in practice, which makes them effectively indistinguishable from subjective opinions. I also think that there are plenty of “self-evident moral truths.” But there’s no logical reason why “self-evident” would necessarily be the same as “objective.” And in fact, what we see is lots of people with lots of different “self-evident moral truths.” Without any objective actor to judge among them, or help them distinguish “objectively self-evident” from “something I strongly feel is objectively self-evident.” Once again, it’s all effectively indistinguishable from a world of subjective morals.
My argument is that if there is even one self-evident moral truth, then the objective nature of morality is established.
That seems reasonable.
There is at least one self-evident moral truth: torturing infants for personal pleasure is evil. Therefore, the objective nature of morality is established.
I don’t think you’ve done anything more than articulate that you feel this is self-evident. You don't seem to be able to articulate any indicia of actual objectivity, such as an arbiter separate from yourself capable of rendering objective, perceptible judgment that can be objectively distinguished from subjective opinion. To really prove this to anyone who doesn’t already agree with you, I think you’d need a much better way of demonstrating “self-evident” truths. If you want to use your absurdity tool, I think you need a much more rigorous definition of “absurdity.”
Have you taken an opinion poll on that matter? No you have not. You merely assume that no one would disagree with the proposition. Why do you assume that? Because you view the proposition as “extreme.” Why do you view it as extreme? Because you made a value judgment. You judged the example to be “extreme,” which leads straight back to the point Cannuckian made.
This is almost entirely wrong. Again, I’d like you to consider (even for the sake of argument) that you really aren’t very good at determining what other people think. At least, you have not done a very good job in this thread of determining what I think—you get it wrong almost perfectly consistently. I’m not calling it an “extreme” hypo because I’ve made a value judgment. I’m calling it “extreme,” as I explained above, because I think as a matter of objective fact virtually no one in the real world would disagree with the proposition. No, I haven’t taken an opinion poll. It is possible that I’m making a wrong assumption. But I doubt it.
PHV: “Am I wrong?” Yes.
Would you mind answering the other question in that paragraph? “How do you reliably distinguish a factually objective moral truth from one that you merely feel is objectively true, especially given human fallibility?”Pro Hac Vice
November 25, 2013
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PHV: “Here’s a thought experiment for you: let’s say we put together a list of 50 to 100 “self-evident” moral propositions . . .” That you would propose this thought experiments indicates that you still have not grasped the argument I’ve made, far less refuted it. Your argument appears to be that since we cannot have perfect agreement on the set of self-evident moral truths, there are no self-evident moral truths. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. My argument is that if there is even one self-evident moral truth, then the objective nature of morality is established. There is at least one self-evident moral truth: torturing infants for personal pleasure is evil. Therefore, the objective nature of morality is established. PHV: “I’m using “extremity” as a measure, essentially, of the empirical question of how many people would agree with the proposition.” Have you taken an opinion poll on that matter? No you have not. You merely assume that no one would disagree with the proposition. Why do you assume that? Because you view the proposition as “extreme.” Why do you view it as extreme? Because you made a value judgment. You judged the example to be “extreme,” which leads straight back to the point Cannuckian made. I don’t know who you are trying to fool with your dodge about it being an “empirical” determination based on head counting. Is it us, or are you trying to fool yourself too? PHV: "Am I wrong?" Yes.Barry Arrington
November 25, 2013
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CannuckianYankee, Thanks for your thoughts. You suggest first, if I understand you correctly, that it’s inconsistent to call BA’s example “extreme” if I deny the applicability of objective standards. I don’t think it is, though. I’m using “extremity” as a measure, essentially, of the empirical question of how many people would agree with the proposition. If no one, or virtually no one, would disagree with the proposition, then I think it’s an “extreme” example. It’s true that “How many people agree with this?” is a kind of objective standard, but not the kind we’ve been discussing. I think BA and I would agree that “lots of people think X is true” is not the same thing as proof that X is objectively good. My position is that people who are taking part in a civil conversation have self-selected for certain characteristics. No one who’s well-adjusted enough to function well in society is likely to believe that it’s moral to eat babies or fire randomly into crowds or drive trucks through churches. It’s not impossible, of course, but it’s very unlikely. So if our observation is simply, “No one here thinks those are good things to do,” then it’s a pretty unhelpful observation. There are (at least) two possible explanations for it, and there’s no obvious reason why it’s more compatible with BA’s explanation than mine. Except, of course, and only arguably, for this “self-evident” thing. The problem with “self-evident” is that, as StephenB acknowledged, it’s not any kind of argument. It’s a statement of faith that has no traction with anyone who doesn’t already agree with it. BA’s attempts to translate it into some sort of logical statement are largely incoherent. His definition of “absurdity” seems indistinguishable from “a very bad result.” In other words, I don’t understand what makes a world in which people torture children for fun “meaningless and irrational” in any way that’s distinguishable from “very very very bad.” What’s the “meaning” or “rationality” that have been subtracted from that world? Objective rightness? That would be circular. StephenB acknowledged these problems by facing up to the lack of argument and logic in “self-evidence.” It’s not clear to me whether BA does the same. Here’s a thought experiment for you: let’s say we put together a list of 50 to 100 “self-evident” moral propositions. “Killing is self-evidently always wrong,” “abortion is self-evidently always wrong,” “stealing is self-evidently always wrong,” “stealing for any reason other than desperate need is self-evidently always wrong,” etc. And let’s say we asked 1,000 committed, born-again Christians to agree or disagree with each proposition. Do you think we’d get 1,000 identical answer sheets? I don’t. I don’t think 1,000 people would agree with one another as to the set of “self-evident” moral truths, not because they don’t perceive self-evident moral truths but because they all perceive slightly different self-evident moral truths. Self-evidence is not logically the same thing as objectivity. We can’t determine whether non-empirical self-evident truths are actually objective truths without a test for objective moral truth, which is the thing we were looking for in the first place. Am I wrong? How do you reliably distinguish a factually objective moral truth from one that you merely feel is objectively true, especially given human fallibility?Pro Hac Vice
November 25, 2013
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PHV "Whether our morality is subjective or objective, no one participating in this discussion will disagree that hedonistic torture is wrong. The question is, why? Because of objective morality, or because this is such an extreme example that any human being sufficiently socialized to have a public debate will subjectively feel that it’s wrong?" Let's take this apart a bit more: "Because of objective morality or because this is such an extreme example...." Is that really a dichotomy? This is where you seem to be confused, (if you don't mind my chiming in here). When you say "because this is an extreme example...." you are appealing to a standard of judging (ie., between extreme and less extreme examples). You admit that anyone here would object because it's extreme. Extreme is a value. Where does that come from? You've pretty much contradicted yourself here when at one momemnt you say that there are no objective moral values, then at another moment you can't help appealing to them when you need to make your case. Granted, you seem to appeal to them in an indirect manner as if no-one will notice. But they do. I did. In fact, it's rather glaring. You seem to be saying that we people appeal to morality as a group, and that we are legitimate judges of what is right and wrong; but at the same time, there is no standard above human judgment. If there is no standard above human judgment, then there really is no way that we can judge. You might say rather, that we arbitrary make moral choices for our own convenience. Extreme examples are what they are because there ARE standards. It's the less extreme examples of objective morality that we have a harder time discerning; and this is pretty much Barry's point. It's why he uses the example he does. If he used a less extreme example, such as "a person ought not contradict him/herself," (and we've actually had such discussions here), then there would be those who object. Nobody seems to object to the current example. But even with the less "extreme" example I gave above, you can argue objectively. In fact, in the same way that Barry argues for the self evident nature of some moral standards, it is self-evident that contradiction is incoherent. The example is in fact a law of reason put into moral terms. So with that, we can derive what we ought to do; beginning with the issue of deception. We ought not to be deceptive because deception involves contradiction. Since contradiction is logically incoherent, deception (involving contradiction) is written into the fabric of the universe as something we ought not to do. I agree with Barry that morality is at its very basic level, self-evident. And the best measure of whether something is moral or immoral, is against the self and our own feelings and desires, as you have rightly discerned by saying that humans are judges. I.e., by the golden rule -"do as you would be done by," we humans have acknowledged the standards by which to live. Seems it's the same at it's very basic level in all human societies. I think there's a reason for that.CannuckianYankee
November 25, 2013
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Objective Morality: Is It A Tangible part Of Reality? Since, as a Christian Theist, I hold that God continuously sustains the universe in the infinite power of His being, and since I also hold that God created our 'inmost being', i.e. our souls, then I also hold that morality is a real, objective, tangible, part of reality that we should be able to 'scientifically' detect in some way. I think this quote from Martin Luther King is very fitting as to elucidating what the Theist’s starting presupposition should be for finding objective morality to be a ‘real, tangible, objective’ part of reality:
“The first principle of value that we need to rediscover is this: that all reality hinges on moral foundations. In other words, that this is a moral universe, and that there are moral laws of the universe just as abiding as the physical laws.” - Martin Luther King Jr., A Knock at Midnight: Inspiration from the Great Sermons of Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.
And, contrary to what the materialist/atheist would presuppose beforehand, we find much evidence to back up Dr. King’s assertion that “there are moral laws of the universe just as abiding as the physical laws”. For instance, we find that babies have an innate moral sense thus directly contradicting the notion that morals are learned as we grow older:
The Moral Life of Babies – May 2010 Excerpt: From Sigmund Freud to Jean Piaget to Lawrence Kohlberg, psychologists have long argued that we begin life as amoral animals.,,, A growing body of evidence, though, suggests that humans do have a rudimentary moral sense from the very start of life. With the help of well-designed experiments, you can see glimmers of moral thought, moral judgment and moral feeling even in the first year of life. Some sense of good and evil seems to be bred in the bone.,,, Despite their overall preference for good actors over bad, then, babies are drawn to bad actors when those actors are punishing bad behavior. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/magazine/09babies-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
The following study goes even further towards establishing the objective reality of morality by showing that 'Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional':
Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional, brain study shows – November 29, 2012 Excerpt: People are able to detect, within a split second, if a hurtful action they are witnessing is intentional or accidental, new research on the brain at the University of Chicago shows. http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-11-moral-instant-emotional-brain.html
Of course, despite the wonder inherent in the preceding study, some atheists will, for whatever reason, try to claim that this instantaneous moral compass which humans have, contra the ‘survival of the fittest, dog eat dog’ mantra, 'just so happened' to evolve to be an instant moral reaction to violent actions (despite the fact that Darwinists cannot even explain how a single neuron of the brain arose in the first place). But the following study, completely contrary to what atheists/materialists would presuppose beforehand, shows that morality is embedded at a much deeper ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, basis.
Quantum Consciousness – Time Flies Backwards? – Stuart Hameroff MD Excerpt: Dean Radin and Dick Bierman have performed a number of experiments of emotional response in human subjects. The subjects view a computer screen on which appear (at randomly varying intervals) a series of images, some of which are emotionally neutral, and some of which are highly emotional (violent, sexual….). In Radin and Bierman’s early studies, skin conductance of a finger was used to measure physiological response They found that subjects responded strongly to emotional images compared to neutral images, and that the emotional response occurred between a fraction of a second to several seconds BEFORE the image appeared! Recently Professor Bierman (University of Amsterdam) repeated these experiments with subjects in an fMRI brain imager and found emotional responses in brain activity up to 4 seconds before the stimuli. Moreover he looked at raw data from other laboratories and found similar emotional responses before stimuli appeared. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/views/TimeFlies.html
As well, the following experiment, from Princeton no less, is very interesting in that it was found that ‘perturbed randomness’ precedes a worldwide ‘moral crisis’:
Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter – Random Number Generators – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007 Mass Consciousness: Perturbed Randomness Before First Plane Struck on 911 – July 29 2012 Excerpt: The machine apparently sensed the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Centre four hours before they happened – but in the fevered mood of conspiracy theories of the time, the claims were swiftly knocked back by sceptics. But it also appeared to forewarn of the Asian tsunami just before the deep sea earthquake that precipitated the epic tragedy.,, Now, even the doubters are acknowledging that here is a small box with apparently inexplicable powers. ‘It’s Earth-shattering stuff,’ says Dr Roger Nelson, emeritus researcher at Princeton University in the United States, who is heading the research project behind the ‘black box’ phenomenon. http://www.network54.com/Forum/594658/thread/1343585136/1343657830/Mass+Consciousness-+Perturbed+Randomness++Before+First+Plane+Struck+on+911
There is simply no coherent explanation that a materialist/atheist can give as to why morally troubling situations are detected prior to our becoming fully aware of them. The materialist/atheist simply has no beyond space and time cause to appeal to to explain why the phenomena should happen! Whereas as a Theist, especially as a Christian Theist who believes that the Lord Jesus Christ died and rose again to pay for our sins, I fully expect morality to have such a deep, 'spooky', beyond space and time, effect since, or course, I hold that God sustains the universe, and I also hold that we have 'souls' which are made by God. Verses and Music
Hebrews 1:3 ,,and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.,,, Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. Black Eyed Peas - Where Is The Love? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYeekQkAdc
Supplemental notes: That a transcendent, beyond space and time, cause is needed to explain the continued existence of the universe is noted here:
‘Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm Closing the last Bell-test loophole for photons - (Zeilinger) Jun 11, 2013 http://phys.org/news/2013-06-bell-test-loophole-photons.html
That a transcendent, beyond space and time, component is present within humans is noted here:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - Elisabeth Rieper - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/
bornagain77
November 25, 2013
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I am certain PHV would say that Munny’s Crimes are “bad.” I am equally certain that he would say that when he asserts that Munny’s Crimes are “bad,” he is using the word “bad” in the same way he used it when he referred to Brussels sprouts.
I have noticed that you are quite fond of announcing what other people believe. I have also noticed that you are not very good at it. Your detailed diatribe is not a very insightful or accurate description of my beliefs.
In other words, all he is saying is that he personally, for whatever reason, does not prefer to commit Munny’s Crimes.
This is incorrect. I am also saying that I believe Munny’s Crimes (I’m taking your word for what they are, I’ve never seen the movie) are morally wrong and, in my subjective opinion, should not be committed by anyone.
An inevitable logical corollary to PHV’s position is that if someone else (let’s call him “Frank”) were to say that Munny’s Crimes were good, PHV could say that he personally disagrees with Frank. He might even say he strongly disagrees with Frank. But he cannot logically say that some standard exists to arbitrate between his view on the matter and Frank’s view.
This is a little sloppy. You are not trying very hard to see my perspective, perhaps because you’ve already decided (incorrectly) that you understand it. I don’t believe that there is an external, objective standard to arbitrate between our views. But that’s empirically true—what external, empirical arbiter will step down from on high to tell us whether Frank or I is actually correct? (Maybe that will happen in the afterlife, but that’s neither here nor there.) Whatever your beliefs on the existence of objective morality, the only arbiters in this life are human beings applying their subjective beliefs. And of course I certainly believe in the existence of such subjective standard to arbitrate between our views. There’s my standard, the court’s standard, the mob’s standard, Frank’s standard—lots of standards. Just no external, objective actor telling us which of those is correct.
Now someone might say PHV’s conclusions are illogical, but they would be mistaken. PHV’s conclusions follow from his premises like night follows day. Let us examine his argument: 1. Particles in motion are all that exist or ever have existed. 2. This means there is no God. 3. Since God does not exist, transcendent ethical norms are not possible. 4. It follows that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are not saying that it is a transgression against an objective standard of ethical norms, because no such standard exists. 5. The only other possibility is that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are merely expressing a subjective personal preference, i.e., we do not prefer the behavior. 6. Therefore, when we say, for example, that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “bad” we are saying nothing more than that we do not prefer such a thing. 7. Finally, if someone else says that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “good,” while we may disagree with them, there is no objective standard by which our views could be arbitrated.
Are you perhaps thinking of a different Pro Hac Vice? Because this does not describe my beliefs at all. Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 are flatly wrong statements of my beliefs. For example, I quite carefully explained to you in a prior thread that I don’t deny the possibility of the existence of objective standards. I take the position that they don’t seem to be definable or detectible, not that they can’t possibly exist. Numbers 5 and 7 are arguable but distorted, which is probably the best possible result when you declare what someone else believes without taking much trouble to learn them first. I’m skipping a bit of the rest of your lecture, as “Dostoevsky” isn’t an argument.
But is his argument sound? Now that, dear readers, is another question, and the answer to that question depends on whether PHV’s first two premises are true, and there are many good reasons to believe they are not.
Not to beat a dead horse, but they are not, in fact, my premises.
There are some things that we cannot not know. That torturing infants for pleasure is evil – that it transgresses the moral law woven into the fabric of the universe – is one such thing.
I know that you love this example, and as I’ve explained I think it’s because this is an extremely easy case. Whether our morality is subjective or objective, no one participating in this discussion will disagree that hedonistic torture is wrong. The question is, why? Because of objective morality, or because this is such an extreme example that any human being sufficiently socialized to have a public debate will subjectively feel that it’s wrong? As I wrote earlier, this is like arguing that everyone owns shoes. Look around, everyone you see at the office has shoes on! Therefore everyone owns shoes. But the observation doesn’t prove the point. Similarly, the fact that everyone in this discussion agrees that hedonistic torture is wrong doesn’t prove that the feeling comes from an objective source. So what happens in boundary cases? Is there an objective solution to the N Guilty Men problem, for example?
It follows that there is some possibility that PHV’s first two premises are correct and that the universe is ultimately meaningless and irrational.
Not my premises, and I don’t believe that the universe is either meaningless or irrational. I believe that we give the universe meaning, and that rationality is an inherent property of the universe.
The smug certitude so many materialists display on these pages is unwarranted…
“Smug certitude” could fairly describe your position as well, couldn’t it? After all, you just wrote an entire essay attacking a strange caricature of my beliefs because you couldn’t be bothered to get them straight. Moreover, what are the odds that your perception of “self-evident” moral truths is wrong? Entire generations of Christians have been wrong about one truth or another from our modern perspective. Are you susceptible to such error, or are you superior to them in your ability to discern Objective Truth?Pro Hac Vice
November 25, 2013
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This clip from "Chronicle" is short, sweet and an accurate description of what reality *should* be like for our materialist friends were they consistent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oXDZMsjvUMlpadron
November 25, 2013
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Unforgiven is great for dialogue: "The Schofield Kid: [after killing a man for the first time] It don't seem real... how he ain't gonna never breathe again, ever... how he's dead. And the other one too. All on account of pulling a trigger. Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have. The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming. Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105695/quotes Seems Munny's nihilism is selective. But I think that's the point of the movie. It's really hard to be consistent with materialism when you have to deal with your own time that comes. To recognize that we're no different than those who have gone before - those who are now dead, is a sombering realization.CannuckianYankee
November 25, 2013
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