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Wistar Convention, Salem Hypothesis and Music

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einstein violin

The most well-known recorded clash between non-biologists and biologists over evolutionary theory was at Wistar 1966 :

a handful of mathematicians and biologists were chattering over a picnic lunch organized by the physicist, Victor Weisskopf, who is a professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
and one of the original Los Alamos atomic bomb group, at his house in Geneva. `A rather weird discussion’ took place. The subject was evolution by natural selection. The mathematicians were stunned by the optimism of the evolutionists about what could be achieved by chance. So wide was the rift that they decided to organize a conference, which was called Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution. The conference was chaired by Sir Peter Medawar, whose work on graft rejection won him a Noble prize and who, at the time, was director of the Medical Research Council’s laboratories in North London. Not, you will understand, the kind of man to speak wildly or without careful thought. In opening the meeting, he said: `The immediate cause of this conference is a pretty widespread sense of dissatisfaction about what has come to be thought of as the accepted evolutionary theory in the English-speaking world, the so-called neo-Darwinian theory. This dissatisfaction has been expressed from several quarters.”

Some of the most tenacious opponents of Darwinian evolution have been those outside of the discipline of biology, most notably engineers, mathematicians, physicists, and chemists.

I point to the Salem Hypothesis:

An education in the Engineering disciplines forms a predisposition to Creation/Intelligent Design viewpoints.

But what about musicians?

(The topic of music, math, computer science came up in Artificial Intelligence and the Game of Checkers. I sensed a great deal of interest in the topic so I’m opening this thread to air the discussion out. )

I would even be curious to know if there is a correlation between musically oriented people and ID. Seriously! It’s been my experience that at least in regards to people I meet on the internet there is a partial correlation. I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music.

There is a little nuance here however in that many with interest in the disciplines of engineering, math, and physics have interest in music. Here at UD, William Dembski, Gil Dodgen, and myself can play Chopin Etudes on the piano. Several of my math and computer science professors were accomplished musicians. My piano teacher was also a professor of mathematics. Albert Einstein, Edward Teller, and Richard Feynman were also accomplished musicians.

To support the correlation of computers, math, and music , consider this article: Society for Neuroscience

musical brain

Brain imaging research shows that several brain areas are larger in adult musicians than in nonmusicians. For example, the primary motor cortex and the cerebellum, which are involved in movement and coordination, are bigger in adult musicians than in people who don’t play musical instruments. The area that connects the two sides of the brain, the corpus callosum, is also larger in adult musicians.

music training can influence brain organization and ability. In fact, researchers actively are studying whether the brain changes observed in musicians enhance mental functions, including many not associated with music. While research is still in its early stages, some studies already suggest that this might be the case. For example, musically-trained adults perform better on word memory tests than other adults.

In addition to adults, children who take music lessons may experience advantages with respect to some cognitive skills. Preschoolers who had piano lessons for about six months perform better than other preschoolers on puzzle-solving tests. Researchers are trying to improve this music effect by adding other training components. One recent study found that second-graders who took piano lessons and played special computer math games score higher on math tests than children who played the math games but had English language instruction instead of piano lessons. Scientists now are testing whether the addition of another set of lessons, which incorporates the computer game into a school’s standard math program, will boost the young pianists’ math scores even more. Preliminary findings indicate that second-graders who received this version perform as well as fourth-graders in fractions, ratios, symmetry, graphs, and other pre-algebra problems.

Finally platonic ideals are also the antithesis of Darwinian evolution, but very friendly to mathematics, music, information science and ID.

How “real” are the objects of a mathematician’s world? From one point of view it seems there can be nothing real about them at all.Mathematical objects are just concepts;they are the mental idealizations that mathematicians make,often stimulated by the appearance and seeming order of aspects of the world about us,but mental idealizations nevertheless. Can they be other than mere arbitrary constructions of the human mind? At the same time there often does appear to be some profound reality about these mathematical concepts,going quite beyond the mental deliberations of any particular mathematician.It is as though human thought is,instead,being guided towards some external truth – a truth which has a reality of its own,and is revealed only partially to any one of us.
….
Such categorizations are not entirely dissimilar from those that one might use in the arts or in engineering. Great works of art are indeed “closer to God” than are lesser ones.It is a feeling not uncommon among artists,that in their greatest works they are revealing eternal truths which have some kind of prior ethereal existence,while their lesser works might be more arbitrary,of the nature of mere mortal constructions.

Likewise,an engineering innovation with a beautiful economy,where a great deal is achieved in the scope of the application of some simple,unexpected idea, might appropriately be described as a discovery rather than an invention.

Having made these points,however,I cannot help feeling that,with mathematics,the case for believing in some kind of ethereal,eternal existence,at least for the more profound mathematical concepts,is a good deal stronger than in those other cases.There is a compelling uniqueness and universality in such mathematical ideas which seems to be of quite a different order from that which one could expect in the arts or or engineering.The view that mathematical concepts could exist in such a timeless,ethereal sense was put forward in ancient times (c.360 BC) by the great Greek philosopher Plato.Consequently,this view is frequently referred to as mathematical Platonism [Ref: Davis & Hersh “The Mathematical Experience” {Platonism}].It will have considerable importance for us later.

Roger Penrose
Mathematical Physicst, Emperor’s New Mind

Thus, since music is something of a platonic form, I would presume that there will be a slight correlation between the love of music and the love of intelligent design.

Comments
Count myself as another engineer(software, to be precise)/musician/ID supporter. I've played guitar for 10 years, bass for 8, mandolin for 4, and I can also play the didgeridoo.Maleldil
August 25, 2006
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..."And perhaps biologists are blind to the issue of Platonism because their work is more descriptive than theoretical (meaning mathematical)–not just because they have been appointed the high priests of atheism" - Pure The notion that there aren't mathematically astute evolutionary biologists is silly. There are few scientific fields that are more mathematically sophisticated than evolutionary biology. Flip through any issue of Evolution and you will find that on the order of half of the articles involve mathematical modeling. Beginning with Fisher, Wright and Haldane and continuing to the present, many/most major questions are framed in terms of mathematical models. It is hard to be a evolutinary biologist without some level of quantitative sophistication and there are a large number whose primary training is in a mathematical field. All the ID theorists together wouldn't equal(in quantity or quality) 1% of the working evolutionary biologists with a Ph.D. in a mathematical field.vrakj
August 25, 2006
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Dan Levitan, a neuroscientist at Berkley (?) has written a book titled "This is our Brain on Music" about the relationship between music and the way the brain/mind deals with it. It's really quite good, weaving elements of science and art togehter. Judging from the commentary, there are a number of people here who would find it interesting and informative - if it wasn't for the fact that he ultimately uses the entire book to demonstrate that music is part of the evidence set supporting evoultion. Too bad.Pi Guy
August 25, 2006
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This is a phenomenal investment in developmental and metabolic resources in order for creatures like us to think, feel, study nature, create works of art and explore space. It really does not accord well with Darwinian selection that such a structure like the human brain should exist to give us capacities so far beyond what would be needed to reproduce.
I suppose that this is true, if by "creatures like us" you intend to include all primates. For that matter, the number of genes is not greatly different for primates than for any vertebrates, so you'd probably have to include cows as well. A more cogent argument would be to look at the amount of energy consumed by the brain. In humans, it is about 20%. I don't know the numbers for other vertebrates, but it probably should be roughly proportional to brain volume. Excitable tissue like nerve and muscle is expensive to maintain, because they have to invest energy to build up ion gradients that are constantly being run down by the ion channels that give nerve and muscle cells their ability to exhibit electrical activity. However, you have a gross misconception of natural selection if you imagine that it only is expected to provide the capabilities that are "needed to reproduce." It is not mere reproduction that is favored by natural selection, but rather the ability to reproduce (or more accurately, propagate your genes) more successfully than other individuals of the same species. It is true that the advantage of a large brain needs to offset the cost—not merely the metabolic cost, which increases food requirements, but also greater maternal mortality because the vertebrate pelvis is not well designed for giving birth to such large-headed children, and also greater infant mortality, because a substantial part of brain growth must be postponed to after birth. The question of exactly which of the many advantages of a large brain were most responsible for the improved fitness that drove the rapid increase in primate brain capacity remains controversial. Of course, enhanced language and tool use are strong candidates, as well as the ability to support a complex social structure capable of passing down knowledge from generation to generation. It is even possible that there is an element of sexual selection—i.e. with the development of language, the use of language to attract a mate may have become important. But I've always been partial to Calvin's suggestion that enhanced throwing might have been one of the earliest benefits driving evolution of enlarged brains. It is clearly something that that other primates do, but that we do much better. It is an important part of play of all human cultures, suggesting that it is a fundamental behavior that our brains are wired to find highly rewarding. And it is plausible that simply providing more neurons to average out statistical fluctuations could improve throwing accuracy. It may well be that the rest of the brain got dragged along for the ride, like Gould's spandrels, simply because it is easier to find developmental mutations that increase the size of the whole brain than ones that only enhance the motor areas involved in throwing.trrll
August 25, 2006
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Guess I'm one of the exceptions, if you don't mind a dissenting opinion. I have a BSE in Electrical Engineering with a double-major in CompSci. I work as a software engineer and I sing and play guitar. I have even worked up my own mathematical analysis of guitar music theory. But... I absolutely and completely reject intelligent design. And further, I would credit my experience with the design process to be one reason I reject it. I recognize that what evolution does in biology is an abstraction of what we do, subconsciously or consciously, when we design...or is it vice-versa? In other words, I just don't see design as "magical" hubris. I think trrll's post said it well, "there are infinite regress problems with the brain being aware of the entirety of its inner workings."curtrozeboom
August 25, 2006
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Me too! Music major (theory and composition) till I had to make a living. Now my job title is Numerical Control Programmer, which, as the name implies, has to do with both math and computer programming. Been doing that for 25+ years, but still heavily involved with music. Also, in response to the list of "atheist" musicians, should we then list the musicians and composers who were devout believers? I suspect there is an imbalance here. In the vein of this post, has anyone read Dorothy Sayers "The Mind of the Maker"? Seems to be particularly relevant.Jack Golightly
August 25, 2006
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John Singleton: I meant to respond to your "musical atheists" post earlier. I read the page, and my immediate impression was that the author was overly intent upon cheerleading atheists by conflating any form of unorthodox belief with atheism. Goethe could not by a long stretch be considered an atheist and certainly believed in the immortality of the soul (reincarnation to be precise). Also, one must keep in mind the spirit of the times: if one lives in an era in which one's choice is either rigid orthodoxy on the one hand and total non-belief on the other, I would imagine it would be a sign of an alert and spiritually advanced individual to have the courage to reject religion in such circumstances.tinabrewer
August 25, 2006
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bfast wrote: I even think that the twelve note octive is the natural order of music, twelve being that wonderful number that is divisible so many ways. Twelve is a great number for creating all manner of cool patterns that our ears see as beautiful.
There are physical and mathematical reasons for this which would take hours to explain, but twelve is the optimal number which allows Circle of Fifths. Without getting into it, the harmonics we see in music have astonishing parallels to the harmonics we see at the quantum level. It's as if harmonics are woven into the fabric of nature. I was a music student before eventually completing undergraduate degress in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering (minor in Music), and Mathematics (minor in physics). When I studied physics and engineering I was astonished to see the fields permeated with studies of harmonics! It seemed I mearly left one field of music (piano) to study others (electrical engineering and physics. The way the western octave is divided into 12 makes mathematical sense. What is amusing, is that Oriental cultures which only had the pentatonic scale of 5 notes, after being put in touch with western music consumed western music with a passion. It seems these cultures finally discovered the notes that had been missing for many centuries. The president of the Japanese company Sony, for example, decided on the size of the audio CD based on the lenght of time it takes to hear one of Beethoven's major works. Music seems to have some qualities that transcends cultural influence, imho. It seems to permeate nature in many ways. In fact, this sentiment was expressed by Einstein when he praiesed the work of of Neils Bohr in atomic physics. Einstein said that Bohr's work was "the highest form of musicality in the sphere of thought".scordova
August 25, 2006
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Thank you everyone for your comments especially those posting for the first time. Please be patient in seeing your comments appear. Our website is under constant spam attack. I now estimate for every 1 legitimate post 8 posts from insurance salesman or "affection starved housewives" or other spam sources attack this site. Sometimes our automatic spam filter will trap legitimate comments and put them into the trash pile. The process of extracting them from the computerized trash sometime take time, but please be assured, the authors and managment are sorting through the trash piles to rescue your comments! Geoffrey Miller (mentioned above) offered an interesting fact:
Brains are very complex, hard to grow, and expensive to maintain. Higher cortical functions can be easily disrupted by poor nutrition, disease, injury, and low status (leading to depression). Moreover, in primates, probably half of all genes are involved in brain growth, and perhaps a third a uniquely expressed in brain growth. This means that for humans, with about 100,000 genes, brain-indicators could reveal the state of up to 50,000 genes
(Miller's numbers are off for the 100,000 figure, but might actually be vindicated if large amounts of "junk DNA" play a large role in regulating brain development.) This is a phenomenal investment in developmental and metabolic resources in order for creatures like us to think, feel, study nature, create works of art and explore space. It really does not accord well with Darwinian selection that such a structure like the human brain should exist to give us capacities so far beyond what would be needed to reproduce. The capacity for man to think, to persue the discoveries in science and art seems ordained and designed from the beginning. After reading Penrose and Polkinghorne, I would have to consider myself a platonist, where the world of eternal ideal forms we discover in mathematics and art. The human brain seems highly optimized to discover these designs, and the amount of metabolic and other resources to develop and maintain the brain suggests that the brain's existence was by design, not the work of a blind watchmaker. One also sees this kind of extravagance in nature. Why should a caterpillar liquify itself in a cocoon and then reassemble itself into a new creature we call a butterfly. It makes no sense in terms of natural selection. Paley got it right.scordova
August 25, 2006
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John Davison:
I still feel it is perfectly possible that the music was always there and was simply discovered by those who were “prescribed” to be granted that capacity. Since that was undoubtedly true for mathematics, why not for the arts as well?
I suspect that you are correct, that music, nearly as clearly as math, is more a discovery than an invention. I even think that the twelve note octive is the natural order of music, twelve being that wonderful number that is divisible so many ways. Twelve is a great number for creating all manner of cool patterns that our ears see as beautiful. Let me also suggest that the proliferation of animals that have developed a very musical call is proof of your premise.bFast
August 25, 2006
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It’s interesting too how folks tend to be open or closed to certain ideas according to the discipline they’ve chosen. Physicists, as noted above, tend to be Platonists, whereas biologists tend to be fanatically addicted to “pure dumb luck”. Perhaps this is because you cannot do physics without some commitment to mathematical realism. And perhaps biologists are blind to the issue of Platonism because their work is more descriptive than theoretical (meaning mathematical)--not just because they have been appointed the high priests of atheism. Yet for ordinary people design leaps out from living things even more than from the laws of physics. Then there are the linguists who joke about “physics envy” (they crave the prestige of “Science”)—but do you think any would ever extend the physicist’s mathematical realism to the logic of natural language? Of course not! Perhaps it’s the physics envy. Physicists don’t so much have to worry about image. But what linguist wants to be scorned by Darwinists whose place in the academic pecking order seems more assured than his? Salvador brings up an interesting question. The safe bet is that we are products of heredity and environment and choice, but exactly how it all falls out is most interesting indeed.Rude
August 25, 2006
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I still feel it is perfectly possible that the music was always there and was simply discovered by those who were "prescribed" to be granted that capacity. Since that was undoubtedly true for mathematics, why not for the arts as well? "Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source... They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres." Alice Calaprice, The New Quotable Einstein, page 204 "Everything is determined ... by forces over which we have no control." ibid, page 196 "A past evolition is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 25, 2006
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Interestingly, I have read many firsthand accounts of the creative process, and I particularly remember the insistence, on the part of some composers, that they are simply “receivers” for music which they hear in their heads and then put down on paper. This also strongly implies that some non-material, essential substance which contains information exists, and that this information can be received and formed into works in matter.
To the neuroscientist, on the other hand, it merely suggests that the conscious mind is not the whole of the brain. This meshes with other research that shows, for example, that it is possible to detect a decision electrically before the time that a person becomes aware of having made the decision. Indeed, as Douglas Hofstadter has pointed out, there are infinite regress problems with the brain being aware of the entirety of its inner workings.trrll
August 25, 2006
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Oh, here's another correlation with music y'all might be interested in. Dare I ask for anectdotal evidence of a connection here? :lol:DaveScot
August 25, 2006
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Sal humans seek God because our brains are biologically programmed to do so. This notion has always interested me. I think about it along the lines of there being a survival advantage to religion. If there is then there might be some instinctual component to it. Learned behaviors that are beneficial sometimes (at least) become instinctual. And lest some chance worshipper think I'm confirming that I believe in evolution I will remind them that an instinctually religious human is still a human. :-)DaveScot
August 25, 2006
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Okay Sal. I see your point. I never would have guessed that rappers like Ice-T, Schooly-D, Ice Cube, and 2Pac were talented at math and computer science but if you say so. And Kurt Cobain. Do they award Nobel prizes posthumously to misunderstood heroin addicts? And then of course there's Jimi Hendrix, one of the greatest musicians to ever live IMO. If he hadn't been so into music he probably could have unified general relativity and quantum field theory. Maybe Bill should write an ID book and target it to inner city gang members. He can make everything rhyme in it. It's all about recruiting the right people to market your product. :razz:DaveScot
August 25, 2006
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bFast: "can NDE realistically explain beauty?” NDE cannot explain consciousness. If one considers that beauty, and any other state of consciousness is merely triggered by the brain and not the cause of it, then no, NDE cannot explain it, since it cannot explain consciousness.mike1962
August 25, 2006
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"An education in the Engineering disciplines forms a predisposition to Creation/Intelligent Design viewpoints." I’m not familiar with Salem hypothesis, but I know for sure that Engineers knows very well what DESIGN means… They are designers… They know very well that no system (electrical, mechanical, thermal, you name it) will work well if it is not designed well… I work for a big contract manufacturer (electronic industry) and we have a Dept that is called “Design & Engineering”… One of my colleagues is a DFM analyst (DFM = Design For Manufacturability) and his role is to ensure that the printed circuit assemblies (like motherboards on PC’s) are WELL DESIGNED in order to be easily manufactured… We (engineers) know for sure that no engine, PC motherboard, or a cell phone has “evolved” – all that stuff had been DESIGNED… And, of course, all of that stuff HAVE A PURPOSE! My college background consists also of some knowledge in programming, so – like somebody already said – when I hear about “genetic code” I suspect instructions of some kind, a “program”… And my intuition is saying that no program can create itself, there must be a PROGRAMMER. About music: as a hobbies, I took some accordion lessons (not an easy instrument to play on), I was also a member of a dance ensemble, and now I’m a tenor in a choir… And yes, I’m embracing the ID philosophy. ;-) At the end: I believe that one of the most difficult impediment for NDE is exactly what – maybe - most religions on this planet are preaching: LOVE!Sladjo
August 25, 2006
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I would like to introduce myself to Erasmus who posted the first response to this thread. While very definutely an evolutioary biologist, I am also a practicing paid musician although I do not belong to the union. I began playing the piano accordion at the age of 9 as I recall, primarily because we did not have a piano. I have performed at several retirement establishments in the Burlington area. I have also done weddings and birthdays. I do this primarily for fun and, being as old or older than many of the residents, find them receptive to my repertoire. I get 50 dollars for a forty minute gig which is a union hour, twenty minutes on / ten minutes off. However I play straight through and often go over. I even sing some much to the amusement of some of the residents. My voice is not what it used to be but then neither is Pavarotti's. I also now play the piano some mostly as therapy for the stress produced by forum communication. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable."John A. Davison
August 25, 2006
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The mathematicians were stunned by the optimism of the evolutionists about what could be achieved by chance.
Not only Mathematicians, but most people are just suspicious that unguided forces could produce the highly complex biological systems present in the world.Mats
August 25, 2006
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bFast, thanks for post 17 & 18. I've always wondered about the issue you've described as a "signal to noise ratio". What is the likelihood that all the millions of mutations required by Neo Darwinian Evolution to get us from single cell to homo sapien, could each cause us to "sink or swim", when there are so many ways to die? I've read several times on this blog (from ID oppononents) about the importance of "testability". I wonder if the scientist (Lenski?) who's raised 35,000 generations of bacteria, has extrapolated his data to determine if the signals overcomes the noise? Or is this a naieve question by a non-scientist?russ
August 24, 2006
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RE: BFast, Couldn't agree more.Atom
August 24, 2006
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Hear, Hear Sal!!! I'm an engineer, ID'st and musician!!! If I wasn't so wrapped up in my job I'd be doing music for a living. I think your correllations just might have something to them. Although a wider data sampling might be in order (a little project for you, no???) nice post.lucID
August 24, 2006
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Hmmm, the dear thing posted before I was done. The fact that my genetic mix is in many ways "below average" would likely have doomed me if I lived in a truly wild world. The wonderful beneficial mutation in my fingernails would have been lost. Bottom line, I believe that a mapping of the fitness landscape, and an accurate calculation of the amount of advantage that a mutation must bring to be welcomed into the fold of new alleles is an essential basic foundation for evolutionary biology. Evolutionary biology needs to get past "just so stories" and to the serious mathematical work of proving the validity of their science, rather than trying to prohibit all challengers.bFast
August 24, 2006
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Atom, "we won’t be able to address those questions until a fitness landscape is mapped out, then we could objectively evaluate risks vs gains for various features. But as Prof. Koons points out in Uncommon Dissent, such a mapping has never occurred." I beleive that this shortcoming is caused by overconfidience on the part of the evolutionary camp. The whole question of signal-to-noise ratio would certainly be part of that mapping. I personally believe that the issue of signal-to-noise ratio is a big deal. For NDE to be true, complex systems must exist based upon individual mutational events. Each of these events most offer fractional benefit (they can be neutral, but getting anywhere with a bunch of neutral events seems, well, front-loaded.) However, at what point of fractional advantage is the advantage no longer detectable by NDE. Consider myself, for instance. In many ways I am a "below average" example of a human being. I am sedentary, overweight, less strong than most, shorter than most ... The cause of this is purely because of my genetic mix, of the gene mix that I was given where, to the best of my knowledge, all of those genes have been "approved" by natural selection. Now, what if I have a mutation that makes my fingernails just a fraction stronger than the average. Is that mutation likely to make the difference for my survival? Probably not. The fact that my genetic mix is in many ways "below average"bFast
August 24, 2006
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There is a well known connection between mathematical and muscial ability - at least well known in the sense that it seems to be discussed quite frequently by math people. However, there also seems to be an abnormnally large number of musicians among the evolutionary biologists that I know. I will propose the following as a null hypothesis: the population of scientists (defined to include mathematicians, etc) in general is enriched with musicians relative to the general population simply because you don't get to be a scientist or a (good) musician unless you are self-disciplined and have a strong work ethic. Mathy people tend more than most to identify themselves by their math skills and so naturally perceive that as the cause of their musical ability when really it is just that they work hard at it.vrakj
August 24, 2006
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Here is Andrew Newberg, MD author of Why God Won't Go Away
Over the centuries, theories have abounded as to why human beings have a seemingly irrational attraction to God and religious experiences. In Why God Won't Go Away authors Andrew Newberg, M.D., Eugene D'Aquili, M.D., and Vince Rause offer a startlingly simple, yet scientifically plausible opinion: humans seek God because our brains are biologically programmed to do so. Researchers Newberg and D'Aquili used high-tech imaging devices to peer into the brains of meditating Buddhists and Franciscan nuns. As the data and brain photographs flowed in, the researchers began to find solid evidence that the mystical experiences of the subjects "were not the result of some fabrication, or simple wishful thinking, but were associated instead with a series of observable neurological events," explains Newberg. "In other words, mystical experience is biologically, observably, and scientifically real.... Gradually, we shaped a hypothesis that suggests that spiritual experience, at its very root, is intimately interwoven with human biology." Lay readers should be warned that although the topic is fascinating, the writing is geared toward scientific documentation that defends the authors' hypothesis.
Again, I don't mean to alarm my UD brethren. I don't mean to suggest that just because religion might be rooted in our biology, that we therefore dismiss the phenomena of religion. Quite the contrary! We hunger for food and thirst for water. That desire is innate, it doesn't not mean food and water are therefore inherently an illusion. Now, on a more philosophical level, why would man's brain, the most complex device in all the universe, be so highly oriented toward religious expeirence? It does not seem to make sense in terms of natural selection. Oxford Mathematical Physicist Rogre Penrose seems to think the mind is a gateway to that pool of non-material, ideal platonic forms. I think the capacity for religious experience is there by design, not by natural selection. Given the high correlation of interest in ID and interest in religious matters, there is already some indirect work on the topic relating to ID and the brain. I would be curious to see more research on the issue. Salvadorscordova
August 24, 2006
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I tend to disagree with anti-evolution mathematicians not because of their math, but because they put the cart before the horse by assuming there was a goal that randomness had to meet. (the goal being whatever complex biological form they are looking at) Hindsight is 20/20 but it can also play havoc with the order of a cart and horse ;)Fross
August 24, 2006
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Allen: Sal wasn't making a generalization. He was asking a question. He was WONdering if there was a relationship, not positively asserting that there is one.tinabrewer
August 24, 2006
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Allen,
I sincerely hope your other generalizations are not as midinformed as this one, Sal.
Ah, but to be exact, I merely posed a hypothesis. It is still one I'm curious about. I said specifically:
I would even be curious to know if there is a correlation between musically oriented people and ID.
And if I may add, though I know of your position regarding ID, you've seemed the most willing to grant it a fair hearing. You really didn't strike me like the others. Considerably different than any EBer I've dialogued with online. That said, given the topic of innate tendencies toward design, and given that we are making physiological correlations between things like musical experience, I think the correlation between inclination toward ID and brain physiology would be interesting. or the correlation of ID and music, or anti-ID and music. And it would be especially intersting to see if there are measurable physiological differences. I'm sure the study would be quite heretical and controversial. I have to admit, I was rather astonished that music could find a measurable anatomical or physiological correlation. I am aware of brain studies which may possibly distinguish people who are religous versus those who aren't. That said, I don't want to imply that brain physiology validates or invalidates one position in the ID/evo debates any more than someone with a more natural aptitude for math would invalidate math merely because he is inclined toward it. If there is no correlation, fine, then my perceptions are an artifact of selective data sampling. I think it is a data point of interest which ever way the issue is decided. Thank you however for enlightening me and setting me straight at regarding your musical skills. It's always good to hear from you. regards, Salvadorscordova
August 24, 2006
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