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WJM on Subjectivist Equivocations

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The following is from William J. Murray:

The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”. That phrasing obfuscates what the subjectivist must mean as opposed to what an objectivist means when they say the same thing.

Normally, especially in a debate like this, one would use terms and phrasings that distinguish between personal preference and an implied reference to an objective ruling/measurement. In regular conversation, there would be a situational understanding, like: “No, that’s the wrong color shoes to go with your outfit.” where the term “wrong” would be understood as a strong expression of personal aesthetics.
Usually, the line is drawn more distinctly: “It’s not the right choice for me, but it might be for you.” In a debate about morality, leaving off the qualifying terminology undermines the clarity of the argument and the capacity to recognize logical errors.
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.

When it comes to moral subjectivists, “it’s wrong to rape” or “it’s wrong to torture” cannot be anything more than statements of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, even if they are very strongly felt and believed; the onus is on the individual to recognize that their preference is just that – a personal preference (even if writ large to a social sensibility).
The question for so-called moral subjectivists is: outside of morality and ethics, would you feel comfortable forcing others to adhere to your personal preferences or your social sensibilities? Are you comfortable forcing people to not serve guacamole with halibut, or forcing them to not vote for Romney?

Now, are you comfortable intervening and forcing someone to stop raping or toturing another person?
This is the line where the obfuscating phrasing cannot go beyond, and it is where supporters of moral subjectivism cast their gaze away from the obvious distinction; even the moral subjectivist agrees that forcing personal preferences or social sensibilities upon others is itself immoral. They will fight against such things as a negative social sensibility against various minorities and certainly against individuals forcing their personal preferences on others.

Hypocritically, though, that’s all that morality is in their worldview; they are guilty of doing the very thing they deem immoral in the first place; in fact, their entire moral mechanism of forcing others to abide their personal preferences or social sensibilities is one they see as immoral everywhere else. They would force a freedom from religion, as if forcing religion on others was in principle different. They would force others to treat minorities equally, but enslaving them is using the exact same in-principle rationale.
Moral subjectivists want there to be some kind of distinction between “morality” and other personal preferences and social sensibilities to purchase a rationale for imposing their views on others, and will refer to moral views as “really strong” feelings; but, no matter how strong those feelings are, unless they posit morality as something else in principle than subjective feelings or social sensibilities, their behavior is the in-principle equivalent of any other moral view.

But, they certainly do not behave that way; they behave (like any moral objectivist) as if they have some authority and obligation beyond what can be accounted for by personal preference and social sensibility, no matter how strong such feelings are. There is an operational boundary between what one is willing to do for what one recognizes as matters of subjective personal taste and social sensibility, and what one is willing to do in cases where an objective, necessary and self-evident boundary is being crossed.
No amount of equivocation can hide the difference in how one behaves when it comes to serious moral matters and matters of personal preference/social sensibility.

Here ends WJM’s comment.

WJM’s interlocutor at this time was a buffoon who styles himself “hrun0815.” Said buffoon responded to the comment as follows:

“Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe.” I take it that “TL;DR” is internet shorthand for “too long; didn’t read.” If that is the case, hrun0815 has proven himself unworthy of being taken seriously on these pages, and I would encourage our readers and posters simply to ignore him.

Comments
I suppose it is worth responding to this same old argument one more time. I think it turns on this fallacy (my emphasisi):
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.
That is a false dichotomy. There are other options. I have pointed this out I don't know how many times and it just seems to be ignored. The following are all statements of the form X is Y - but none of them are objective and none are simply statements of personal preference: * This bend is dangerous * This film is obscene * This scene is hilarious * This novel is interesting There is also the problem that simply objective statements such as red+blue=green do not entail any kind of action whereas moral statements do. To this extent moral statements are more like statements such as: * This is unacceptable * This is not negotiable which are also not statements of personal taste but committments to action. The objective/subjective debate is a debate about the meaning of certain words. The answer requires a detailed and subtle analysis of the use of language.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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The fact remains that when a moral subjectivist uses metaphysical language, such as X “is wrong,” when he really means, “X seems wrong to me,” or “I find X distasteful," he is, consciously or unconsciously misrepresenting his true position. If it is a conscious misrepresentation, then he is dishonest; if it is an unconscious misrepresentation, then he is delusional. This whole deceptive program of narcissistic-oriented morality is an attempt to have it both ways: On the one hand, the subjectivist says that “rape is wrong,” because he wants to create the illusion that he is being just as reasonable as the objectivist, who knows that rape is, in fact, wrong. Thus, by using the metaphysical formula, he gets temporary credit for having a modicum of common sense. On the other hand, if the subjectivist says what he really means, that is, if he says that “rape seems wrong to me,” or “I find rape distasteful, it would become clear that, by his articulated standard of self-styled morality, the rapist should be equally free to style his own morality of rape. An honest subjectivist, therefore, would never condemn rape because an honest subjectivist would allow the rapist the same freedom he grants to himself–the dubious privilege of being his own lawgiver. So, yes, the moral subjectivist is either lying to himself of he is lying to us. The only way a subjectivist can truly be honest is to call things by their right name and say what he really believes. In other words, the honest subjectivist must say that he finds rape distasteful, but he refuses to pass judgment on a rapist who sincerely believes that rape is moral. Are there any honest subjectivists who will step forward and say what they really mean?StephenB
January 16, 2015
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WJM, Interesting comments. It made me think of one of the first articles I wrote here: Reply To An Argument Against Objective Morality: When Words Lose All Meaning As well as this comment to Mark Frank on my first article, which went on to spawn the one linked above. It's certainly an interesting and thought-provoking subject for discussion.HeKS
January 16, 2015
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The theory indicates that the desire to control others is cause by the systematics of how any intelligence works. That's simply what "intelligence" does, controls its muscles and all else that it possibly can such as its environment (territory) and all else in it. It's therefore no surprise humans have an inherent desire to control knowledge, culture, countries, etc., etc., etc..Gary S. Gaulin
January 16, 2015
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WJM: Its a tortured point that you are making. It suggests that forcing our views on others is OK if its an objective moral position, but not OK if its subjective. Is that it ?Graham2
January 16, 2015
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Graham2 said:
WJM: The whole point of your screed seems to be: making moral judgements makes no sense if we don’t have an objective moral standard.
No, my point is that forcing others to abide by what we hold to be nothing more than our preferences (whether or not "deeply felt") for no reason, ultimately, beyond "because we feel like it" (whether or not "deeply felt"), is itself a self-evidently immoral proposition. Feeling strongly about something you hold to be a subjective preference doesn't justify forcing others to do things the way you would prefer.William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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Learned Hand said:
Moral relativists, we’re told by Barry and Stephen and WJM and others, are sociopaths, liars, willful moral perverts, and worse
No, I drew a distinction between someone that fancies themselves a moral subjectivist due to ideological biases (against theism) and someone who actually lives as if moral subjectivism is true. There are many of the former and few of the latter in this world, IMO, and probably none of the latter involved in this discussion. Calling yourself a moral subjectivist doesn't mean you actually act as if morality is a subjective phenomena - that is the entire point of my argument.
We’re very much like you, in that we have moral beliefs that are as powerful for us as they are for you.
I don't think anyone has ever said otherwise; the argument has never been that atheists/materialists/moral subjectivists are less moral, or even behave in a less moral fashion, but rather that the logic that follows from their premise necessarily leads to fatal flaws in their position (which I and others have put forth).
We are utterly without moral compasses, he claims, just choosing our morals the same way we’d choose a paint chip or taco filling
Well, I never said anything like that, but I will use this passage to make a few points: 1. Compasses all point in the same direction, which is the very principle of a compass - anyone who uses one can find North. I'm not the one saying you are "utterly without a moral compass"; you are, because moral "compasses" do not exist under moral subjectivism. North is whatever anyone happens to feel like it is. 2. When you compare choosing morals to choosing a taco filling, you phrase it in a negative way - as if choosing morals the same way you choose a taco filling was a bad thing. But a true moral subjectivist would hold that however one chooses their morals - whether it was deeply meaningful or chosen like the taco filling of the day - is equally valid, because morality is subjective. Who are you to denigerate how others choose or employ their morals? 3. Here is LH being self-righteous about others passing moral judgement on him (while passing moral judgement on them) as if one or the other was objectively wrong, as if we don't have the same right under moral subjectivism as he does to pass our moral judgements any way we see fit, any way we feel like. Under moral subjectivism, this debate cannot be anything other than the simple slinging of feces, with no assumed objective arbiter that would give either of us a reason to consider that we might be wrong. How can you be "wrong" about how you feel, and what you prefer?William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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WJM: The whole point of your screed seems to be: making moral judgements makes no sense if we don't have an objective moral standard.Graham2
January 16, 2015
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keiths:
William has been repeating these mistakes for years.
As if William OUGHT NOT make these mistakes and OUGHT NOT repeat them.
Whether you think each of these characteristics is objective is irrelevant, because there is no way to determine objective sexiness or objective immorality, if such things exist at all.
As if anyone OUGHT TO believe you. Pathetic really.Mung
January 16, 2015
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Graham2 said:
Its the same old dreary, endless argument. The believers have objective morality on their side, so they get to tell the rest of how to behave.
This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my argument. Nobody has objective morality "on their side", anymore than anyone has gravity "on their side".
Some evidence for objective morality please, then you can start preaching.
Evidence is not required in order to follow the logic of disparate premises to their distinctly different conclusions.William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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Box: The consequences are exactly what you see around you, ie: the real world: A confused, muddled, imperfect world. Exactly what you would expect in a world where objective morality doesn't exist.Graham2
January 16, 2015
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What part of the logical consequences of moral relativism don't you guys understand? The part "but ... but I'm not like that" perhaps?Box
January 16, 2015
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Let's not forget WJM being much more concise and on the point of the matter (which is incidentally the reason why I didn't care much for an even longer post by WJM).
Actually, it’s fairly easy to tell moral subjectivists and objectivists apart; actual moral subjectivists are called sociopaths. There’s a difference between using “moral subjectivism” as an intellectual anti-theistic firewall in a debate and actually being (living as) a moral subjectivist.
And yes, clearly this makes me the buffoon. Because it means that since I'm not a delusional liar I'm actually a sociopath in WJM's eyes. In fact, I probably prefer buffoon over sociopath.hrun0815
January 16, 2015
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But there’s a real value–a moral value–to understanding your neighbor as a person. Share my morals for a moment, and make the effort.
Some of us are here in a sincere attempt to carry on a real dialogue in hopes of increasing understanding. But I too have been called a variety of names just for upholding some rather non-controversial, century-old mathematics. Perhaps this isn't the place it claims to be. Perhaps those seeking a breaking down of stereotypes should look elsewhere . . .Jerad
January 16, 2015
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I taught a class on negotiation today--more or less my day job. I often tell my students when they negotiate, they'll come across people they want to believe are stupid or dishonest; negotiation is hard and confrontation often makes people feel the need to dehumanize the other side. I ask them instead to assume that the other side in the negotiation is as smart and as honest as they are. Not to trust people blindly, but to assume in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary that misstatements are inadvertent or the result of miscommunication rather than a lie or idiocy. I do that because I've seen a lot of negotiators devolve into demonizing the other side of the table. Once they start to assume the other side are liars or fools, they stop thinking those people are worth the same respect and attention they want for themselves. They stop listening. Moral relativists, we're told by Barry and Stephen and WJM and others, are sociopaths, liars, willful moral perverts, and worse. We could not possibly believe the things we claim to believe, according to WJM--we aren't allowed to pass judgment. We are utterly without moral compasses, he claims, just choosing our morals the same way we'd choose a paint chip or taco filling. Sociopaths. Stephen denies us even the basic humanity of having identities and opinions that differ from his own; we are extensions of his beliefs, and if we disagree, we must be lying. Willful moral perverts, deceiving others for our own wicked purposes. No matter how often we try to explain that these are caricatures, the response always seems to be the same. KF will always hyperventilate about how we're leading society to "might makes right." Someone will ask how could a subjectivist possibly disagree with the Nazis, har har har. I don't expect to change any minds here; these caricatures are invested with a lot of spite and emotion. After all, we're babykilling sociopathic liar perverts. But guys, for the record and KF's onlookers--you don't understand how we think. We're very much like you, in that we have moral beliefs that are as powerful for us as they are for you. But we aren't exactly like you, and our moral beliefs (like those of most of the world) are different from yours. We've been extraordinarily patient, trying to explain our perspective to you. Have the caricatures changed? Has anyone stopped to reconsider whether they really understand how subjectivists think, following a long conversation with some real, live examples? Barry's takeaway from the conversation seems to be to take an opportunity to highlight the venomous and dehumanizing caricatures. That's the point of the conversation to him; perhaps he feels he'll be less broken if he spreads a little more slime in the world. But there's a real value--a moral value--to understanding your neighbor as a person. Share my morals for a moment, and make the effort.Learned Hand
January 16, 2015
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Its the same old dreary, endless argument. The believers have objective morality on their side, so they get to tell the rest of how to behave. Some evidence for objective morality please, then you can start preaching.Graham2
January 16, 2015
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Keith, I should have said:
The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is that those describing/arguing the subjective position use the same terminologies ("X behavior is wrong") that is used in descriptions under objective morality, but the two usages have entirely different meanings and cause entirely different chains of inference.
IOW, when a moral objectivist says "it is wrong", they mean it in the same sense of 2+2=25 is "wrong"; when a subjectivist uses the same phrase, they (if they are logically consistent) mean it in the Voting for Romney is "wrong" sense. One is considered a matter of objective fact; the other is considered a matter of personal opinion. The problem is when subjectivists attempt to rationalize how a matter of opinion - no matter how strongly felt - can engender behavior otherwise reserved for matters one considers to be based on fact.William J Murray
January 16, 2015
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Keith, "immoral" - implying an objective ruling/measurement - is unavailable for the subjective moralist. If one redefines "immoral" as a statement of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, then it is available for the subjective moralist. Are we in agreement?Box
January 16, 2015
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William has been repeating these mistakes for years. He writes:
The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”.
That's as silly as arguing that the word "sexy" is unavailable to someone who thinks that sexiness is in the eye of the beholder (as it clearly is). Subjectivity doesn't make a term "unavailable". "Sexy" is relative to individual standards, and so is "immoral". Whether you think each of these characteristics is objective is irrelevant, because there is no way to determine objective sexiness or objective immorality, if such things exist at all.keith s
January 16, 2015
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