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WJM on Subjectivist Equivocations

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The following is from William J. Murray:

The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”. That phrasing obfuscates what the subjectivist must mean as opposed to what an objectivist means when they say the same thing.

Normally, especially in a debate like this, one would use terms and phrasings that distinguish between personal preference and an implied reference to an objective ruling/measurement. In regular conversation, there would be a situational understanding, like: “No, that’s the wrong color shoes to go with your outfit.” where the term “wrong” would be understood as a strong expression of personal aesthetics.
Usually, the line is drawn more distinctly: “It’s not the right choice for me, but it might be for you.” In a debate about morality, leaving off the qualifying terminology undermines the clarity of the argument and the capacity to recognize logical errors.
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.

When it comes to moral subjectivists, “it’s wrong to rape” or “it’s wrong to torture” cannot be anything more than statements of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, even if they are very strongly felt and believed; the onus is on the individual to recognize that their preference is just that – a personal preference (even if writ large to a social sensibility).
The question for so-called moral subjectivists is: outside of morality and ethics, would you feel comfortable forcing others to adhere to your personal preferences or your social sensibilities? Are you comfortable forcing people to not serve guacamole with halibut, or forcing them to not vote for Romney?

Now, are you comfortable intervening and forcing someone to stop raping or toturing another person?
This is the line where the obfuscating phrasing cannot go beyond, and it is where supporters of moral subjectivism cast their gaze away from the obvious distinction; even the moral subjectivist agrees that forcing personal preferences or social sensibilities upon others is itself immoral. They will fight against such things as a negative social sensibility against various minorities and certainly against individuals forcing their personal preferences on others.

Hypocritically, though, that’s all that morality is in their worldview; they are guilty of doing the very thing they deem immoral in the first place; in fact, their entire moral mechanism of forcing others to abide their personal preferences or social sensibilities is one they see as immoral everywhere else. They would force a freedom from religion, as if forcing religion on others was in principle different. They would force others to treat minorities equally, but enslaving them is using the exact same in-principle rationale.
Moral subjectivists want there to be some kind of distinction between “morality” and other personal preferences and social sensibilities to purchase a rationale for imposing their views on others, and will refer to moral views as “really strong” feelings; but, no matter how strong those feelings are, unless they posit morality as something else in principle than subjective feelings or social sensibilities, their behavior is the in-principle equivalent of any other moral view.

But, they certainly do not behave that way; they behave (like any moral objectivist) as if they have some authority and obligation beyond what can be accounted for by personal preference and social sensibility, no matter how strong such feelings are. There is an operational boundary between what one is willing to do for what one recognizes as matters of subjective personal taste and social sensibility, and what one is willing to do in cases where an objective, necessary and self-evident boundary is being crossed.
No amount of equivocation can hide the difference in how one behaves when it comes to serious moral matters and matters of personal preference/social sensibility.

Here ends WJM’s comment.

WJM’s interlocutor at this time was a buffoon who styles himself “hrun0815.” Said buffoon responded to the comment as follows:

“Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe.” I take it that “TL;DR” is internet shorthand for “too long; didn’t read.” If that is the case, hrun0815 has proven himself unworthy of being taken seriously on these pages, and I would encourage our readers and posters simply to ignore him.

Comments
A previous comment has been put into moderation. But not this one. Did I offend or was it an accident?Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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Or we can put it the other way round: Do you believe it is possible to be a moral subjectivist and not a sociopath? Do you believe it is possible for evolution to be true, yet we still can be moral beings that live according to rules other than might makes right? Two simple yes/no answers will suffice, KF. I know this will be very challenging for you even though many could answer these questions for you based exclusively on your previous posts.hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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Didn't WJM argue that every subjectivist is either deluded or a sociopath? Since we are not all sociopaths does that not mean there HAS to be a creator who endowed us with morality? Does this not mean that ID HAS to be true?hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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HR, no, you have utterly distorted what I have argued, what WJM has argued and what BA argued also. I suggest to you that you need to revise your representation of our views. a good place to begin is to see if you can accurately paraphrase what I just wrote to you. Unless, what you imply is that you have no duty of fairness to us so long as you think you can get away with it. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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Pardon, but that is a loaded strawman caricature.
KF, you are pardoned. Take it up with WJM, BA, or yourself though. These are not my arguments but yours.hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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HR, Pardon, but that is a loaded strawman caricature. We are all -- unless we are sociopaths -- aware of moral sense attaching to actions, thoughts, decisions etc. We often call this conscience. Like our eyes, such can be warped or blinded, but that in no wise implies that overall it is a grand illusion. That is, as an example, there is something grossly mistaken in this as an example:
We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external grounding… Ethics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.]
(And, this is by no means isolated.) on such a view, first, a major feature of our conscious minded life is delusional. There are no firewalls, it implies general delusion, and is self-referentially incoherent. It is therefore error. Instead, we start afresh from acknowledging our sense that we have intrinsic quasi-infinite worth and a reasonable expectation that core rights should be respected, that extends to others of like nature. On this, a civil peace of justice can be built. But also, it implies that OUGHT is objectively real, not just a perception. So, we must address the gap between IS and OUGHT. There is an is in the world that grounds ought, under which we are morally governed. The only serious candidate is the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, the root of reality. One, worthy of service and such that doing the right in light of a sound understanding will make sense. The principles of ought, in short are not arbitrary. Principles long since summed up by Locke when he set out to ground modern liberty and just government, by citing Hooker, in his 2nd Chapter of his 2nd essay on cibvil gov't:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics have been known for 2300 years, about the same age as the Septuagint. Jesus and Paul are C1. Justinian's Corpus Juris Civilis is C C6 AD. Hooker is c 1600 and Locke 1690 or so. Blackstone is 1760-70 or so. Not exactly hard to find. Not to mention, repeatedly cited during the current exchanges. KF PS: That the world of life, directly or indirectly, was designed is not equal to, it shows empirically reliable signs that indicate design. The same, for the cosmos. That the one shows empirically tested reliable signs of design, and the other, signs of fine tuning fitting it for C-chemistry aqueous medium cell based life, are separate, empirically grounded insights. Your attempt to conflate such with a different matter, that we have good reason to hold morality objective and in so doing to respect the general (but not absolute) testimony of conscience, fails.kairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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Aurelio Smith said:
Indeed, for all the protestations about the degeneracy of atheists and agnostics, there doesn’t seem to be any descent into chaos. Glancing at those countries in Scandinavia where secularism is taken for granted, the populations seem to be fairly free from sociopaths.
In this, AS apparently thinks that a secularist society in itself necessarily means that most members of that society (1) hold morality to be subjective and (2) actually act as if moral subjectivism is true. In the first place, this is a complete non-sequitur; social secularism does not necessarily entail moral subjectivism; in the second place, even if AS could find some sort of study that directly polled whether or not Scandinavians considered morality "subjective" or "objective" in nature, the very point of my argument is that people (other than sociopaths) who fancy themselves moral subjectivists do not and can not actually live according to the logic of of moral subjectivism. I responded:
Because a nation is secular doesn’t mean that the people there actually live as if subjective morality is true. Indeed, one of the main aspects of this argument is to logically demonstrate that non-sociopaths do not and cannot actually live as if subjective morality is actually true.
Note that not only is AS making an unwarrnted and unsupported association between social secularism and moral subjectivism, he simply assumes the very thing in contention - that those who call themselves moral subjectivists (overlooking the fact that AS has presented no evidence that most Scandinavians consider themselves moral subjectivists) actually behave according to the logic of moral subjectivism. IOW, it was AS who was apparently "mind reading" the entire population of Scandinavia to both identify the majority as "moral subjectivists" and to ascertain that they actually lived in accordance with the logical consequences of that view in order to present "Scandinavia" as a supposed refuation of my argument! I merely pointed out his unsupported assumption about what is in the mind of Scandinavians and how they lived; I never claimed anything about them at all, and I certainly didn't claim or imply that I knew how they thought or acted (other than, logically, if they aren't sociopaths they must act like moral objectivists, which is my argument about people in general). Aurelio Smith apparently did the mind reading; my argument is only about the logic following from the premises.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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So I took KF to heart and pondered the matter some more. It turns out this is really revealing. It explains not only why it is pointless to attempt understanding with this type of objectivists. It also explains why it is pointless to debate ID and evolution scientifically as well. BA, KF, WJM, and others are very clear that morally acting subjectivists can simply not exist. So everybody is either a sociopath or an objectivist. Since not everybody is a sociopath it must mean that objectivism is true and there is indeed a creator who made us and endowed us with morality. This means that ID also HAS to be true. There is simply no other logical possibility. That means there will never be, for example, arguments of the kind that look at what it would entail were ID or evolution right. Since evolution HAS to be wrong such approach is logically flawed. So, thank you.hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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WJM, I hear you on indoctrination. I remember Morris Cargill (a senior Jamaican pundit) writing that the best way to get a man set up for a blow from behind him on his left is to get him focussed on a threat in front of him and to his right. In our case, a one sided hysteria keyed up by a sustained litany of indoctrination against an imaginary vast conspiracy and threat of right-wing theocracy and linked, targetted scapegoats . . . ignorant, stupid, insane and/or wicked of course [as in have we even learned the first lesson about bigotry and prejudice?], has opened the way for a radical, self referentially incoherent subjectivist and/or relativist a priori materialist, scientism-riddled secularism that is increasingly domineering and suicidally destructive. A first step to addressing it is to go back to worldview foundations, as just linked. Including, of course, the objectivity of morality -- just what so many here utterly refuse to soundly assess. Then, we can take a saner look at the history of the rise of modern liberty and democracy [e.g. cf here at 101 level], and at issues that confront us in our time. Sound truth, ever, is the answer to error. And, the lessons of history were paid for in blood and tears. If we refuse to soundly learn and heed them in our time, we will foolishly doom ourselves to pay the same price, over and over and over again. KF PS: A simple indicator as to how far we have been manipulated is that we think the National Socialist German Labour Party (I love the C 1930's translation I saw) was RIGHT-wing. Right of Stalinism, yes, but by no means Right of Centre.kairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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SB
No. I am using the dictionary definition of the word, which you refuse to accept. Feel free to look it up. Words mean things. You are misusing words.
Good idea. If a dictionary will settle our argument then we can save a lot of effort. I am talking about moral language in general so it is hard to know which specific moral words to look up. “Good” and “bad” have hundreds of definitions so let’s take a word that is specifically moral: “evil”.  If I Google “define evil” I get: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious; i.e a lot other moral language and thus no clarification as to whether moral language is objective or subjective. I am afraid the dictionary is not going to resolve our dispute. We are going to have to debate what these darn words mean (thought I will get bored with this quite soon).
You will not find the words “gut feeling” associated with the words “correct.” Incorrect means not correct. You are free to attach the words “gut feeling” to the words as an add on if you like, but you are not free (logically) to change the meaning of the word itself.
I said “right or wrong” not “correct”. “Correct” is more specific than right or wrong. It focuses on those contexts where “good” or “right” is in virtue of conforming to some standard (and it is still true that any standard may in itself be right or wrong). But right or wrong are broader than that. It makes perfect sense to say “I don’t think he is behaving correctly but I have a gut-feel it is a good thing”.
No, I am giving you the definition of a word, which you misuse for purposes of rhetorical strategy. A definition is not a cicular argument. It is impossible to carry on a rational discussion with someone who does not honor the meanings of words.
See above. If we are debating the meaning of a word then it is unsound to take as a premise that the word means what you believe it to mean.
Because justice demands that those who hurt others should pay a price.
I guess “justice demands” means “people ought to be punished when they do wrong”. So why do what justice demands? (My point being to prove you can go on asking “why” forever).
Your feelings about morality have nothing to do with justice, which of course, you do not believe in. It is impossible to believe in justice without believing in objective morality. I am sure that you can understand that.
I don’t understand that and I disagree – but let’s keep the discussion within bounds.
You have value and dignity as a person because of who and what you are, not because society thinks so, or because I think so, or because you think so. It is inherent. If, therefore, someone compromises something of value, as in the case of rape, justice demands payment.
Interesting example. Value rather clearly does arise because of what society thinks. If a jewel has a value of $200 that is because people are prepared to pay that much.
Law and morality are inextricably tied together. Society’s moral principles inform the civil law. But the laws, thus established, also influence people’s moral ideas. Accordingly, there is no escape from the question: Is it a just law or an unjust law? If it is a just law, people will be treated fairly; if it is an unjust law, they will not be treated fairly.
Agreed.
For you, there are no just laws or fair treatment. There are only laws that you like and laws that you don’t like. You don’t believe in the existence of justice and fairness, for the same reason that you don’t believe in the good, which sets the standard for justice and fairness. Justice means giving people what they are due, either in the form of a good, a reward, or bad-a punishment. It has nothing at all to do with your personal preferences or your subjective morality
That is debating equivalent of shouting “I am right you are wrong”. I don't think you are interested in an analysis of what we mean when we use moral language. Which is a shame because without that it is not possible to make much progress.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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MT, you are playing a familiar game of out of context snipping and sniping at scripture. Rather than entertaining you in it (you will be able to find sound, balanced teaching if you are really interested, I give just the clue that husbands are to love wives as Christ loved the church his Bride . . . and willingly suffered unjust death for it), I will point to the main presentation of the core Judaeo-Christian moral position by its principal teacher. Given, in his most famous sermon, the most famous sermon of all time: __________________ >> Matthew 5-7English Standard Version (ESV) The Sermon on the Mount 5 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. The Beatitudes 2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: 3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. 5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. 9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God. 10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Salt and Light 13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet. 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that[b] they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Christ Came to Fulfill the Law 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Anger 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[e] of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.[f] Lust 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. Divorce 31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Oaths 33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.[g] Retaliation 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[h] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. Love Your Enemies 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Giving to the Needy 6 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. The Lord's Prayer 5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.[j] 10 Your kingdom come, your will be done,[k] on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread,[l] 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.[m] 14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Fasting 16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Lay Up Treasures in Heaven 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[n] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.[o] Do Not Be Anxious 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[p] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. 34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. Judging Others 7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. Ask, and It Will Be Given 7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! The Golden Rule 12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[q] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. A Tree and Its Fruit 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. I Never Knew You 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Build Your House on the Rock 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” The Authority of Jesus 28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. >> ___________________ If your perception of the Judaeo-Christian moral framework is at material variance with that then it is distorted. And if someone comes along and claims to be speaking in the name of that position but what he says is at material variance, he is wrong. Doesn't matter what office he may hold -- and yes, that means it is possible to be a wolf in sheep's [--> shepherd's] clothing. On the other side, I think there is a problem of a one sided unbalanced litany of accusations that seeks to rob Christians of their positive contributions to world history, and to pile up a litany of accusations. A more balanced view is needed. Not least, as our democratic self government is largely rooted in the Judaeo-Christian view, especially as touching the foundations of responsible freedom, justice and core community institutions such as the family. Ill-informed and too often arrogantly presumptuous tampering with these is doing serious damage, and threatens to wreak havoc. But then, when one has become en-darkened in the name of enlightenment, one of the implications is that one is expecting things to line up with the falsities perceived as truth. Which, by definition the real truth will not do. So, a saner point to start from is worldview foundations, as far back as first principles of right reason [LOI, LNC, LEM especially] and the self evident truth, error exists. If you want to seriously assess the Judaeo-Christian worldview, here is where one needs to begin. Trying to make major decisions on ethics when one has problems with foundations of truth, reason and knowledge, modes of being, causality etc is a prescription for error if ever I have seen one. Then, one can rebuild a sound understanding. But, I expect that things are going to have to crash and burn horribly before there will be a willingness to be truly enlightened. As, happened with Marxism-Leninism at the turn of the '90's . . . and until after things crashed, many Marxists refused to hear or heed correction. Yes, I am deeply pessimistic and saddened by the march of folly that is our civilisation in our time. Even, as I have long been about a homeland whose name I cannot say without pain. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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Graham2 @ 4, the evidence for objective morality is that everyone absolutely believes in it even as they reject it which is easily demonstrated and was the whole point of WJM's post that managed to sail right over yours and several others' obtuse heads. You are right that it has been hashed out many times before and was a favorite "evidence" of C.S. Lewis aka Mere Christianity, but it is still an extremely powerful argument and it's also great fun to watch moral relativists dance and squirm when you ask them something like this: Graham2, if I came into your home and killed you and your children then raped your wife would that be wrong in an objective sense? There are only two possible answers -- either rape and murder are objectively wrong or they are not. Objective morality NECESSARILY REQUIRES transcendence. If there is nothing transcendent, and we are all there is, then right and wrong are just a matter of opinion. Comprende?Florabama
January 17, 2015
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Mark Frank
We are debating what moral words such as “wrong” mean. The paragraph above assumes you are right. You are simply setting out your position – not arguing for it. I disagree.
No. I am using the dictionary definition of the word, which you refuse to accept. Feel free to look it up. Words mean things. You are misusing words.
Sometime people are right or wrong according to an objective standard – sometimes it is based on a gut-feel or a complex mix of both.
You will not find the words "gut feeling" associated with the words "correct." Incorrect means not correct. You are free to attach the words "gut feeling" to the words as an add on if you like, but you are not free (logically) to change the meaning of the word itself.
See above – you are assuming what you are arguing for.
No, I am giving you the definition of a word, which you misuse for purposes of rhetorical strategy. A definition is not a cicular argument. It is impossible to carry on a rational discussion with someone who does not honor the meanings of words.
Assuming there is such a thing as objectively wrong why should they be punished for that?
Because justice demands that those who hurt others should pay a price. There is no free lunch, either in the physical world or the moral word. That is what it means to live in a rational universe, which of course, you reject in principle. The one reason they should not pay a price is because you disapprove of their behavior. Your feelings about morality have nothing to do with justice, which of course, you do not believe in. It is impossible to believe in justice without believing in objective morality. I am sure that you can understand that. SB: They violated the inherent dignity of the human person.
Why should they be punished for that?
You have value and dignity as a person because of who and what you are, not because society thinks so, or because I think so, or because you think so. It is inherent. If, therefore, someone compromises something of value, as in the case of rape, justice demands payment. Law and morality are inextricably tied together. Society's moral principles inform the civil law. But the laws, thus established, also influence people's moral ideas. Accordingly, there is no escape from the question: Is it a just law or an unjust law? If it is a just law, people will be treated fairly; if it is an unjust law, they will not be treated fairly. For you, there are no just laws or fair treatment. There are only laws that you like and laws that you don't like. You don't believe in the existence of justice and fairness, for the same reason that you don't believe in the good, which sets the standard for justice and fairness. Justice means giving people what they are due, either in the form of a good, a reward, or bad-a punishment. It has nothing at all to do with your personal preferences or your subjective moralityStephenB
January 17, 2015
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This has to be the most amazing claim to mind-reading powers I have come across. WJM reads the minds of whole nations!!!
Actually, no. Why? Because WJM KNOWS that he's correct no matter what facts on the ground say. There is no mind reading involved. They HAVE to either be sociopaths or delusional liars, the whole lot of them. Since there is no convincing there is just acceptance. Embrace your inner liar. I did. Funny thing is that even though objectivists claim to have unchanging morals, they tend to change rather quickly to the good. Just look at the rapid shift in acceptance of gay marriage in the US. A generation from now there'll be a new WJM or KF or BA who will argue that the right to gay marriage is natural God given moral law. So just like I have to make peace with the fact that I only imagine to be a subjectivist, the objectivists will have to come to terms with the fact that secular societies develop and evolve as if morals are subjective. It seems like a fair trade off.hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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Because a nation is secular doesn’t mean that the people there actually live as if subjective morality is true. Indeed, one of the main aspects of this argument is to logically demonstrate that non-sociopaths do not and cannot actually live as if subjective morality is actually true.
If you like I can also state that I am happy that more and more people get to live in secular societies that acknowledge the subjectivity of morality. I guess it takes a delusional liar to happily live among delusional liars.hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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Aurelio Smith said:
Indeed, for all the protestations about the degeneracy of atheists and agnostics, there doesn’t seem to be any descent into chaos. Glancing at those countries in Scandinavia where secularism is taken for granted, the populations seem to be fairly free from sociopaths.
It appears that in the case of several posters here, there is a mental narrative generating a high degree of cognitive bias. The argument is not about comparative behaviors, but rather about the necessary logical conclusions that can be reasoned from the two separate premises (objective vs subjective morality). Because a nation is secular doesn't mean that the people there actually live as if subjective morality is true. Indeed, one of the main aspects of this argument is to logically demonstrate that non-sociopaths do not and cannot actually live as if subjective morality is actually true. For example, this debate is rife with arguments presented by self-styled "moral subjectivists" that cannot help but lace their arguments with objective morality implications, references, and cannot help but argue as if we are all morally bound to pursue the truth of this matter as if our moral predilections are more than just a matter of personal preference. They cannot help but lace their commentary with references to the moral positions of others (religious believers) as if such positions can be demonstrated immoral, as if those views are not necessarily as valid as the subjectivists by the subjectivist's own standard.. There is a difference between espousing moral subjectivism and actually living, thinking and arguing according to the logically necessary conclusions of that perspective. Few people can own up to those conclusions, much less live accordingly. Dawkins at least owns up to them, but even he admits they cannot be lived by.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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SB
Again, you are misusing words. When you say “wrong,” we both know that you mean wrong “for you,” but that isn’t what the word really means. Wrong means immoral, not correct, impropoer, or out of order according to an objective standard of judgment.
We are debating what moral words such as “wrong” mean. The paragraph above assumes you are right. You are simply setting out your position – not arguing for it. I disagree.
If someone gets an answer wrong on a test, it isn’t just wrong “for him,” it is just wrong, period. If a person gets a sequence out of order, it isn’t just out of order for him, it is out of order, period. In both cases, there is a failure to measure up to an objective standard. Similarly, if something commits a wrong act, such as rape, it isn’t just wrong for him, it is wrong, period. It violates an objective standard of moral justice.
Sometime people are right or wrong according to an objective standard – sometimes it is based on a gut-feel or a complex mix of both. Even subjectivists sometimes use objective standards. They just recognise that the value of the standard itself can always be challenged – was this a good test? was this a good sequence to choose? So in the end it comes down to a subjective decision.
By contrast, you say that there is no such thing as objective right or wrong; yet you insist that the rapist should be punished for doing something wrong, which means, objectively wrong.
See above – you are assuming what you are arguing for.
And, of course, the answers you do give, beg the question. It assumes that victims “ought” to have closure, or that the rapist “ought” to be deterred. Why should these things be? To soothe your feelings, or satisfy the demands of justice?
I didn’t assume any such thing . You asked for my reasons. Those were my reasons. Period. For any reason for any action you can go on asking why is that a reason indefinitely. There has to come a point when you simply say – that is a good enough reason. I am drawing the line with the reasons I gave. If you don’t find those to be reasons without further justification then we differ in that respect and that is the essence of subjectivism.
Other facets of your answer are self contradictory. You say, for example, that the rapist should be punished because society thinks it is wrong. That’s true, but society defines wrong in objective terms. The entire legal system is based on the standards of objective morality. So your definition of wrong is different from society’s definition, yet you appeal to society’s judgment on rape in support of your own, as if you were both on the same page.
Please read my response carefully. I wrote: It demonstrates society’s belief that this is wrong. This not the same as punishing him because society thinks it is wrong. My point is that society’s attitude (and I do not accept that society defines wrong in objective terms) coincides with mine so I am really happy that it should reinforce its attitude through punishment.
Because they did something objectively and egregiously wrong:
Assuming there is such a thing as objectively wrong why should they be punished for that?
They violated the inherent dignity of the human person.
Why should they be punished for that?
 
Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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kf, Having been in their shoes, I think the fear of oppressive religious indoctrination and persecution done in the name of morality is keeping them transfixed and locked in a logically unsustainable position. In their mind, even the rationally incoherent is preferable to logically consistent religious persecution. It's a false dichotomy based on, IMO, a highly limited, cartoonish concept of alternatives. They are willing to embrace the absurd in order to avoid that which they know to be wrong (religious persecution and indoctrination). The problem is that they can't conceive of a theism that grounds objective morality and is free from religious persecution and indoctrination. It's kind of admirable, in a way, given the alternatives they believe to be available.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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KF, It is dangerous to follow morality preached by religious texts without due diligence. Look at what is happening with Muslims. For them what Koran preaches is objective morality. Imagine if Deuteronomy's morality was in force today, how many women will be stoned to death:
Deuteronomy 22:20-1 But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
Look at how Man is given power over the fairer sex and slaves:
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Exodus 21:20-21 When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
Me_Think
January 17, 2015
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Seversky offers a great example of the problem of subjective morality @60; he blatantly states that he has the moral right to an act simply because of his wants:
What right do we have to take any action against psychopathic rapists and murderers? It’s very simple. I do not want to be raped or murdered by such an individual. I do not want members of my family or friends to be raped or murdered by such an individual. I am reasonably sure the overwhelming majority of society feels the same way. That is sufficient justification for us doing whatever we can to stop such people harming others ever again.
It appears to be lost on him that justifying an act as moral because of one's wants also justifies the behavior of those he is acting to stop. In the end, Seversky's morality boils down to "because I want to" and "because I can". Seversky continues:
I ask again: “Who else should decide what is right or wrong? ” God? What makes His decrees any more than just another individual’s opinions?
Divine decree morality is just as problematic as subjective morality. If god is the foundational root of existence, and "good" is an immutable characteristic of that foundation, then morality, which refers to what is good, is an immutable aspect of our existence. We cannot change it, god cannot change it; it simply is, and it is up to us to understand it as best we can.
Certainly, if He exists as Christians believe Him to be, He has the power to impose His rules and enforce His laws but if you allow that then you allow the ultimate version of ‘might makes right’ which sort of defeats the object, doesn’t it?
Which is why Divine command morality should not be considered the correct form of objective morality. What is good is good, and nothing - not even god - can change it.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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Seversky, we do not DECIDE as to what is right or wrong, we recognise or acknowledge it. And, we can come to understand why it is wrong on a principled basis, if we are but willing: love does no harm, for one, if we recognise our worth and expect to be respected on core rights then we owe recognition of the same for others, if we would not be dealt with extremely we should recognise the same for those who are as we are, and the like of which no one is justifiably ignorant. KF PS: Note the implication of responsible freedom in saying we can decide, as opposed to being conditioned by nature and nurture, ultimately tracing to the non-rational.kairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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WJM, notice the consistent shift from is there an objectively binding OUGHT that reasonably governs the human condition, to you are imposing YOUR view . . . with the implication, you OUGHT NOT "impose" (but "we" can . . . might and manipulation make 'right' etc ) The inconsistency is already telling, but the refusal to address the objectivity of our moral sense speaks volumes. Especially when we realise this is a major facet of our self aware minded consciousness, guiding our decision-making. As I cited, there is a consistent implication of illusion, really delusion. But as there are no firewalls in mindedness, we need to think through how such a view undermines the whole project of responsible, reasonable freedom. With sobering implications. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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Andre @ 51
Society’s beliefs have what to do with subjectivity? Just because the majority might think it right does not mean it is right to punish me!
Doesn't it? Who else should decide what is right or wrong? How else do we decide what is right or wrong? What right do we have to take any action against psychopathic rapists and murderers? It's very simple. I do not want to be raped or murdered by such an individual. I do not want members of my family or friends to be raped or murdered by such an individual. I am reasonably sure the overwhelming majority of society feels the same way. That is sufficient justification for us doing whatever we can to stop such people harming others ever again. Yes, mobs are dangerous but they are not necessarily the same as a majority. Mobs were what lynched blacks in the South. Slavery was abolished when a majority became convinced that such a practice was indefensible. I ask again: "Who else should decide what is right or wrong? " God? What makes His decrees any more than just another individual's opinions? Certainly, if He exists as Christians believe Him to be, He has the power to impose His rules and enforce His laws but if you allow that then you allow the ultimate version of 'might makes right' which sort of defeats the object, doesn't it?Seversky
January 17, 2015
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MF, I am bringing to the table real-world cases, and am pointing out the issue of in effect saying that since vision can be warped or blinded, it can be dismissed when it testifies to our conscious awareness; whether by eye or by conscience. I am not merely appealing to emotion, I am remembering what it was like to personally have to deal with Communist agitators, in the context of Solzhenitsyn's testimony and warning. Remember, he wrote from real cases. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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Mark Frank
You love inquisitioning people don’t you?
It's all part of the dialogue.
My answer is the usual reasons for punishing people when they do something wrong.
Again, you are misusing words. When you say "wrong," we both know that you mean wrong "for you," but that isn't what the word really means. Wrong means immoral, not correct, impropoer, or out of order according to an objective standard of judgment. If someone gets an answer wrong on a test, it isn't just wrong "for him," it is just wrong, period. If a person gets a sequence out of order, it isn't just out of order for him, it is out of order, period. In both cases, there is a failure to measure up to an objective standard. Similarly, if someone commits a wrong act, such as rape, it isn't just wrong for him, it is wrong, period. It violates an objective standard of moral justice. By contrast, you say that there is no such thing as objective right or wrong; yet you insist that the rapist should be punished for doing something wrong, which means, objectively wrong. And, of course, the answers you do give, beg the question. It assumes that victims "ought" to have closure, or that the rapist "ought" to be deterred. Why should these things be? To soothe your feelings, or satisfy the demands of justice? Other facets of your answer are self contradictory. You say, for example, that the rapist should be punished because society thinks it is wrong. That's true, but society defines wrong in objective terms. The entire legal system is based on the standards of objective morality. So your definition of wrong is different from society's definition, yet you appeal to society's judgment on rape in support of your own, as if you were both on the same page.
Assuming you also think rapists should be punished, why?
Because they did something objectively and egregiously wrong: They violated the inherent dignity of the human person. Both components are important. Generally, people should not be severely punished for committing a minor wrong or for doing something that merely seems wrong (to you, perhaps) and may not really be wrong.StephenB
January 17, 2015
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Not all moralities considered objective are equal, and the mere acceptance that morality must logically refer to an objective commodity doesn't guarantee a moral structure that is fully rational and impervious to error and misconception. However, without the objective premise, morality becomes nothing more than a term that hides the truth: subjectivism boils down to doing what you feel like doing. Under subjectivism, raising a child to share your moral views cannot be anything other than simply indoctrinating them into accordance with your own personal feelings. Under subjectivism, arguments about morality cannot be anything other than irrational, emotional pleading and rhetoric driven by some selfish desire to get others to feel the same way you do even while admitting that the way they feel is just as valid and moral as your own feelings.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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Graham2 asks:
WJM: Its a tortured point that you are making. It suggests that forcing our views on others is OK if its an objective moral position, but not OK if its subjective. Is that it ?
Is the difference between educating your children in mathematics and indoctrinating them with your personal views a "tortured point"? If morality is nothing more than personal, subjective feelings that describe how you prefer others behave, then when you tell your child that it is wrong to harm other children or steal their stuff, you cannot in principle be doing anything substantively different from any parent that influences their child in any way - like hating other groups of people. Is there a difference between educating a child and indoctrinating them? Would that difference be that one is the teaching of objective facts and the other is the teaching of subjective feelings as if they were facts? If it is not a fact that proposition X is morally wrong, then teaching any child any set of moral values is necessarily the equivalent indoctrination of personal, subjective views. If one holds that morality, instead, refers to some objective commodity, then they are at least attempting to educate their child about navigating an actually existent moral landscape. The difference between those that intellectually hold to subjectivism and those that hold to moral objectivism is that the former can only be conducting indoctrination and the latter at least has the capacity to be educating others about an actual moral landscape - like teaching a child about the factual dangers of their environment. So, to answer your question: under moral subjectivism one can (logically) only be forcing their personal, subjective views on others, while under objective morality, one at least has the capacity to be at least attempting to educate others about facts and attempting to protect them from actual, objective harm.William J Murray
January 17, 2015
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After browsing through the comments here and in the 'broken' thread I think that my chosen stance of TL;DR was perfectly reasonable. The matter of the fact remains that virtually all objectivist a posting here believe subjectivists to either be sociopaths or liars (or delusional if lying unconsciously). Can you imagine that anything a self-professed subjectivist could say that would sway their opinion? Of course not. When you argue with a sociopath or liar you will not consider changing your mind no matter what they say. The fact that there is near unanimous agreement on the matter makes this 'discussion' utterly pointless. It is laced with answers to questions that actually explain many of the misconceptions about subjectivists, but in the end they count for nothing. Since no matter how many questions you answer, no matter how much you explain, no matter how many of fallacies you point out, ... in the end you still remain a liar or sociopath and objective morality HAS to be right. Very well. I said it before and I say it again: I am glad that I (and more and more people around the world) get to live in secular societies that live in full acknowledgement of the fact that morality is subjective. I guess it takes a sociopath to contentedly live in a society of sociopaths.hrun0815
January 17, 2015
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KF Lay off the argument #49 by emotion and stick to logic.
What answer do you have to his party morality backed up by guns and ruthlessness, other than your preferences and imagination that if the wider public knew about this they would be outraged?
How are you going to persuade him? By reference to the Natural Moral Law?Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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KF #52
Jerad, Solzhenitsyn went on to talk about SMERSH/NKVD etc torturers in honoured retirement as seemingly mild grandpas dandling their grandchildren or the like. That is the sort of thing that is there in the background for this discussion. KF
I was speaking very generally for a fairly democratic society, one with a non-corrupt police and judiciary and lots of support from the population. Like the US, Canada, western European nations. My response was not considering your statement which I doesn't necessarily become the backdrop for everyone's contribution to the thread. Which is why I didn't reference your comment in my response. Obviously I find the behaviour described by Dr Solzhenitsyn to be appalling and should be punished as maximally as possible.Jerad
January 17, 2015
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