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WJM on Subjectivist Equivocations

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The following is from William J. Murray:

The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”. That phrasing obfuscates what the subjectivist must mean as opposed to what an objectivist means when they say the same thing.

Normally, especially in a debate like this, one would use terms and phrasings that distinguish between personal preference and an implied reference to an objective ruling/measurement. In regular conversation, there would be a situational understanding, like: “No, that’s the wrong color shoes to go with your outfit.” where the term “wrong” would be understood as a strong expression of personal aesthetics.
Usually, the line is drawn more distinctly: “It’s not the right choice for me, but it might be for you.” In a debate about morality, leaving off the qualifying terminology undermines the clarity of the argument and the capacity to recognize logical errors.
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.

When it comes to moral subjectivists, “it’s wrong to rape” or “it’s wrong to torture” cannot be anything more than statements of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, even if they are very strongly felt and believed; the onus is on the individual to recognize that their preference is just that – a personal preference (even if writ large to a social sensibility).
The question for so-called moral subjectivists is: outside of morality and ethics, would you feel comfortable forcing others to adhere to your personal preferences or your social sensibilities? Are you comfortable forcing people to not serve guacamole with halibut, or forcing them to not vote for Romney?

Now, are you comfortable intervening and forcing someone to stop raping or toturing another person?
This is the line where the obfuscating phrasing cannot go beyond, and it is where supporters of moral subjectivism cast their gaze away from the obvious distinction; even the moral subjectivist agrees that forcing personal preferences or social sensibilities upon others is itself immoral. They will fight against such things as a negative social sensibility against various minorities and certainly against individuals forcing their personal preferences on others.

Hypocritically, though, that’s all that morality is in their worldview; they are guilty of doing the very thing they deem immoral in the first place; in fact, their entire moral mechanism of forcing others to abide their personal preferences or social sensibilities is one they see as immoral everywhere else. They would force a freedom from religion, as if forcing religion on others was in principle different. They would force others to treat minorities equally, but enslaving them is using the exact same in-principle rationale.
Moral subjectivists want there to be some kind of distinction between “morality” and other personal preferences and social sensibilities to purchase a rationale for imposing their views on others, and will refer to moral views as “really strong” feelings; but, no matter how strong those feelings are, unless they posit morality as something else in principle than subjective feelings or social sensibilities, their behavior is the in-principle equivalent of any other moral view.

But, they certainly do not behave that way; they behave (like any moral objectivist) as if they have some authority and obligation beyond what can be accounted for by personal preference and social sensibility, no matter how strong such feelings are. There is an operational boundary between what one is willing to do for what one recognizes as matters of subjective personal taste and social sensibility, and what one is willing to do in cases where an objective, necessary and self-evident boundary is being crossed.
No amount of equivocation can hide the difference in how one behaves when it comes to serious moral matters and matters of personal preference/social sensibility.

Here ends WJM’s comment.

WJM’s interlocutor at this time was a buffoon who styles himself “hrun0815.” Said buffoon responded to the comment as follows:

“Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe.” I take it that “TL;DR” is internet shorthand for “too long; didn’t read.” If that is the case, hrun0815 has proven himself unworthy of being taken seriously on these pages, and I would encourage our readers and posters simply to ignore him.

Comments
Jerad, Solzhenitsyn went on to talk about SMERSH/NKVD etc torturers in honoured retirement as seemingly mild grandpas dandling their grandchildren or the like. That is the sort of thing that is there in the background for this discussion. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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MF Closure for the victim? Who said they are a victim? How is that even possible? I just used one of the methods nature has provided me with to spread my genes! I'm the victim here I just did what I can do! Society's beliefs have what to do with subjectivity? Just because the majority might think it right does not mean it is right to punish me! If I never thought it wrong in the first place why would I change my mind? Lastly why do you say its wrong? You're forcing your view on me! You're forcing punishment on me and you want to force corrective measures on me for something I don't believe to be completely natural..... How do you know its? How do we know your version of right and wrong is the right one? Why not mine? I just did what nature allows me to do!Andre
January 17, 2015
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MF #48
My answer is the usual reasons for punishing people when they do something wrong. * Deterrence * Some possible closure for the victim(s) * It demonstrates society’s belief that this is wrong * If the punishment is well thought out it may cause the perpretrator to come to believe it was wrong Possibly a few other things – but those are my main reasons for believing in punishment for wrong-doing.
I've got to add: to stop them doing it again. As when you lock them up and, sometimes, throw away the key. I am not speaking for anyone but myself but it seems to me that if someone cannot stop hurting others then they need to be removed from normal society. It doesn't matter why they do what they do, what matters is protecting other people. Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy . . . people like that have to be isolated. I'm a bit on the fence about the death penalty but I am clear that some folks should not be allowed the same civic freedoms the rest of us are granted.Jerad
January 17, 2015
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MF, Nope (while I acknowledge your point on reference), not a proper response to someone who personally faced serious threats from communists. Do you think I just dredged that up from some half-forgotten book for no reason? I have faced nihilists and the havoc they wreak. That's a big part of why I refuse to surrender to amorality-inducing rhetoric. You (or someone you care about on the next table or in the next cell . . . ) are there, bound and gagged. Mr NKVD is there [doing X with his assistant that makes it clear what is on the table . . . I censor the act Solzhenitsyn indicated], and is saying, you won't tell us what you know or confess, well I have some quick medicine for you. What answer do you have to his party morality backed up by guns and ruthlessness, other than your preferences and imagination that if the wider public knew about this they would be outraged? Guess who controls what makes it into the papers, on what terms? What do you think lay behind the show trials? Don't you know, there are things worse than having a gun to your head, much worse? And, that there is only a fine line -- if any -- between the ruthless and the utterly sociopathic? Do you see the significance of conscience as a sense that detects moral truth as the eyes detect visual truth, but where both can be warped or blinded? That, there is no good reason to argue from possible warping or blindness to, there is nothing there to be accurately seen? Visually or morally? KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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#46 SB You love inquisitioning people don't you? My answer is the usual reasons for punishing people when they do something wrong. * Deterrence * Some possible closure for the victim(s) * It demonstrates society's belief that this is wrong * If the punishment is well thought out it may cause the perpretrator to come to believe it was wrong Possibly a few other things - but those are my main reasons for believing in punishment for wrong-doing. Assuming you also think rapists should be punished, why?Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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F/N: Plato's warning in The Laws Bk X c 360 BC, again -- which of course keeps on being studiously ignored:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin")], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse], and not in legal subjection to them.
2350 years standing of warning . . . Nah, just more "word salad." March of folly time, folks. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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SB: Do you believe that rapists should be punished for their actions? Mark Frank
Yes.
Why?StephenB
January 17, 2015
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KF My #41 was a response to #29 (I made a mistake when I put in #30 and you will see the quote was from #29).Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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Aurelio Smith
And let’s not forget Eugenio Pacelli’s rôle in getting the Nazis into power in the 1930?s in the hope of keeping German schools under the control of the Catholic church.
Here are five major authors who have refuted that slimy lie: -------------------------------------------------------------- Ronald J Rychlak Hitler, the War, and the Pope David G. Dalin The Myth of Hitler’s Pope. Philip Jenkins: The New Anti Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice. The Encyclopedia Britannica: A Historical Assessment of Pope Pius XII Ken Woodward: The Case Against Pius XII ------------------------------------------------------------ Now give me your list of authors or historians who will support your slanderous claim.StephenB
January 17, 2015
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PS: Dismissive language like "word salad" is not going to solve the issues with the position you are taking.kairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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MF, Please note 29 above, painful though it is both to read and to have had to write. The point there is, how do you bar the door to that fatal undermining of moral foundations that opens the door to nihilism? The party is the vanguard of the proletariat, the individual is nothing, we cannot make an omelette without cracking a few eggs. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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#30 KF
Do you not see the underlying objective appeals to a mutuallybinding expectation of respect rooted in inherent value of the human person
I think I understand what this particular word salad is getting at.  It may well be true that all of my reasons can be summarised as "respect for other people". I am not sure – but it is plausible. That still does not make respect for other people an ultimate justification. Others may say that they do not find respect for other people morally compelling and they are not being irrational (although I profoundly disagree with them)
Let’s ask, why should I accept your imposition of your tired bourgeois rules, …
For much the same reasons as you would give to the same person: * Human suffering * Loss of liberty * How would you like it to happen to you etc The only difference is that I recognise that if he keeps on saying “and why should I care about that” then in the end I will run out of arguments. Exactly the same is true for you. In the end he may say “why should I care about God’s purpose and the natural moral law.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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AS, The number of times that one has to deal with powerful people exhibiting dark triad syndrome is sufficient that if a presentation fails to address that in balance to how you negotiate with decent though tough people, it is dangerously flawed and unrealistic, lacking boardroom smarts much less street smarts. And, Chamberlain at that moment is the classic historically pivotal case in point. At that point the holocaust was four years away, but the ruthlessness, manipulation and lack of effective conscience were there for all to see in the aftermath of the night of the long knives. But, the leaders of France and Britain, were willfully blind; as were the media and the public. Churchill, who was the lone voice in halls of power crying out a loud warning, was so isolated and disdained (with disasters such as Gallipoli in his track record, but they forgot that the innovator of the tank should have some notion of the dangers being run . . . ) he was literally suicidally depressed. As though, Cassandra was not there in Homer for all to note on the march of folly. And at Munich they bargained away the framework of alliances and defense lines that were the remaining protection for peace. One look at a map would tell any Lieutenant in a reserve officer training programme the next target: Poland. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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Andre #31
Why is rape wrong for you?
Lots of reasons. I gave some in #25.
If I’m using rape to spread my genes who are you to tell me that me acting in a completely natural way is wrong? After all is it not about the struggle for survival? I’m simply acting as nature has intended me to, I have to spread my genes.
Because I (subjectively) believe that “spreading my genes”, whether it be natural or not, is not a moral justification.
You can only have an opinion on that. I don’the care if you think it wrong because nature does no care either.
Well I don’t see why you shouldn’t care just because nature doesn’t. 
Nature does not give guidelines on how I ought to spread my genes
True.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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#36 SB
Do you believe that rapists should be punished for their actions?
Yes.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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KF Is not demonising he is telling you what to look out for.Andre
January 17, 2015
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Mark Frank
I merely observe that people do have differing sincerely held moral beliefs and while there are many justifications for different beliefs there is no ultimate objective criterion. This is an observation not a moral judgement.
Do you believe that rapists should be punished for their actions?StephenB
January 17, 2015
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Of course it's natural to spread ones genes. That is how nature is. Since the first replicator showed it's will to survive.If that was not the case then there would be no life.Andre
January 17, 2015
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@Andre:
If I’m using rape to spread my genes who are you to tell me that me acting in a completely natural way is wrong?
Why are you using the word "natural"?? Isn't it "natural" to not spread your genes?JWTruthInLove
January 17, 2015
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MF Why is rape wrong for you? If I'm using rape to spread my genes who are you to tell me that me acting in a completely natural way is wrong? After all is it not about the struggle for survival? I'm simply acting as nature has intended me to, I have to spread my genes. You can only have an opinion on that. I don'the care if you think it wrong because nature does no care either. Nature does not give guidelines on how I ought to spread my genes.Andre
January 17, 2015
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LH, I think you forgot the case of "the man we can do business with" and the infamous picture of Neville Chamberlain waving the piece of paper in his hand and announcing peace in our time. War was then less than a year away. I suggest, first, that we have to understand that there is something like the dark triad, and when people like that hold power, agreements not enforceable by a forceful walkaway option that we are known to be willing and able to use are meaningless. As in, BATNA on steroids. Dark triad? Highly Machiavellian, Narcissistic and Sociopathic. Manipulative and deceitful, rejoicing in triumphing by tricking the perceived inferiors. Narcissistic, so imagining that they have a right to superior treatment that they will not acknowledge to others. Sociopathic, with a benumbed conscience and en-darkened mind. The lessons of history were paid for in blood and tears, and if we forget or ignore them, we will pay the same price again. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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MF: Do you not see the underlying objective appeals to a mutuallybinding expectation of respect rooted in inherent value of the human person in:
Rape means the victim suffers. Rape restricts the victims liberty for no good reason. The rapist would not accept being raped.
In short, the self-referential incoherence of radical relativism shows through, again and again. Let's ask, why should I accept your imposition of your tired bourgeois rules, especially when I am NKVD [or whatever alphabet soup you please] and you are a class-enemy [or racial inferior or whatever] and traitor hiding information that would advance the cause of the party. And, I know that humiliating you in this personal way -- apart from being quite enjoyable to me as I feed my sense of power and watch the horror in your eyes (you are of course bound and gagged until you indicate to me that you are going to tell me what I want by nodding, and if you don't follow-through . . . ) -- I can get the information I want? And, the Party approves of getting the information in the most efficient way . . . and this way will take fifteen minutes, tops. (In case you think this is made up, I am simply extending a point discussed by Solzhenitsyn in Gulag Archipelago.) KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2015
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There is no objective morality. Morality is more what you imbibe from society than what some book tells you. What is moral in one religion's book need not be moral in another religion. If you say our religious book is correct, it is nothing more than subjective opinion.Me_Think
January 17, 2015
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Andre
You are a dishonest subjectivist, You are claiming that rape is morally wrong. If it is actually subjectime them by its very subjective nature can absolutely not be wrong. It is just your opinion about the matter.
I believe rape is wrong. I do not believe there is an ultimate justification for this position - just a lot of reasons. What is dishonest about that?Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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#23 SB
Wrong. By definition, you, as a subjectist, are commited to the proposition that everyone, without exception, is entitled to act on his sincerely held beliefs. You either believe that or you do not. The law of the excluded middle applies here.
"Entitled" can mean legally or morally entitled. Presumably you mean morally entitled. Subjectivism is an account of what morality is. It is not a statement about what is right and wrong.  Therefore, no moral statements of any kind follow from subjectivism – including who is entitled to do what. Therefore my subjectivism does not commit me to the proposition that everyone, without exception, is entitled to act on his sincerely held beliefs. I merely observe that people do have differing sincerely held moral beliefs and while there are many justifications for different beliefs there is no ultimate objective criterion. This is an observation not a moral judgement.
If you really do believe that the rapist is justified in acting on his belief that rape is moral, then you cannot logically condemn his behavior since you cannot logically condemn that which you believe to be legitimate.
As discussed I do not believe his activities to be legitimate and therefore I can and do condemn him. I just don’t have an ultimate justification for that condemnation.
If you do not believe that the rapist is justified in acting on his beliesf, then you need to explain why it is legitimate for you to act on your sincerly-held beliefs and is not legitimate for the rapist to act on his sincerely-held beliefs.
As explained a million times I have a number of reasons for my moral beliefs – none of them ultimate. Here are some:   Rape means the victim suffers. Rape restricts the victims liberty for no good reason. The rapist would not accept being raped. While these are not ultimate reasons they are widely accepted and I find them very moving.Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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StephenB #23
Wrong. By definition, you, as a subjectist, are commited to the proposition that everyone, without exception, is entitled to act on his sincerely held beliefs. You either believe that or you do not. The law of the excluded middle applies here.
And if I do not believe that everyone is entitled to act on their sincerely held beliefs (including those whose shoot abortion doctors or deny gay people the right to marry) AND I do not believe in any 'objective', unchanging moral code then what I am? Let's say you disagree that women should be allowed to be Bishops (I live in England, it's an issue) then don't you need to explain why your sincerely held beliefs should trump others who think women should be allowed to be bishops?Jerad
January 17, 2015
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Mark Frank
Wrong. I don’t grant the rapist anything. I recognise that he might have his own sincerely held different ideas about what is right as do Islamic fundamendalists. That doesn’t mean I am being dishonest when I condemn them on the basis of my sincerely held subjective beliefs which I happen to share with lots of other people. Why do you find this so hard to understand?
Wrong. By definition, you, as a subjectist, are commited to the proposition that everyone, without exception, is entitled to act on his sincerely held beliefs. You either believe that or you do not. The law of the excluded middle applies here. If you really do believe that the rapist is justified in acting on his belief that rape is moral, then you cannot logically condemn his behavior since you cannot logically condemn that which you believe to be legitimate. If you do not believe that the rapist is justified in acting on his belief, then you need to explain why it is legitimate for you to act on your sincerely-held beliefs and is not legitimate for the rapist to act on his sincerely-held beliefs.StephenB
January 17, 2015
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Mark Frank You are a dishonest subjectivist, You are claiming that rape is morally wrong. If it is actually subjectime them by its very subjective nature can absolutely not be wrong. It is just your opinion about the matter.Andre
January 17, 2015
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Oh brother. Looks like the morally subjective just don't get it.... It is not about who's said morals are better or true, in your world it just means that you really can't justify your own morals because they mean nothing. There is no what's good for the goose is good for the gander scenario, ever. Just indifference about everything. I thought you guys are suppose to be smarter?Andre
January 17, 2015
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An honest subjectivist, therefore, would never condemn rape because an honest subjectivist would allow the rapist the same freedom he grants to himself–the dubious privilege of being his own lawgiver.
Wrong. I don't grant the rapist anything. I recognise that he might have his own sincerely held different ideas about what is right as do Islamic fundamendalists. That doesn't mean I am being dishonest when I condemn them on the basis of my sincerely held subjective beliefs which I happen to share with lots of other people. Why do you find this so hard to understand?Mark Frank
January 17, 2015
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