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WJM on Subjectivist Equivocations

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The following is from William J. Murray:

The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”. That phrasing obfuscates what the subjectivist must mean as opposed to what an objectivist means when they say the same thing.

Normally, especially in a debate like this, one would use terms and phrasings that distinguish between personal preference and an implied reference to an objective ruling/measurement. In regular conversation, there would be a situational understanding, like: “No, that’s the wrong color shoes to go with your outfit.” where the term “wrong” would be understood as a strong expression of personal aesthetics.
Usually, the line is drawn more distinctly: “It’s not the right choice for me, but it might be for you.” In a debate about morality, leaving off the qualifying terminology undermines the clarity of the argument and the capacity to recognize logical errors.
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.

When it comes to moral subjectivists, “it’s wrong to rape” or “it’s wrong to torture” cannot be anything more than statements of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, even if they are very strongly felt and believed; the onus is on the individual to recognize that their preference is just that – a personal preference (even if writ large to a social sensibility).
The question for so-called moral subjectivists is: outside of morality and ethics, would you feel comfortable forcing others to adhere to your personal preferences or your social sensibilities? Are you comfortable forcing people to not serve guacamole with halibut, or forcing them to not vote for Romney?

Now, are you comfortable intervening and forcing someone to stop raping or toturing another person?
This is the line where the obfuscating phrasing cannot go beyond, and it is where supporters of moral subjectivism cast their gaze away from the obvious distinction; even the moral subjectivist agrees that forcing personal preferences or social sensibilities upon others is itself immoral. They will fight against such things as a negative social sensibility against various minorities and certainly against individuals forcing their personal preferences on others.

Hypocritically, though, that’s all that morality is in their worldview; they are guilty of doing the very thing they deem immoral in the first place; in fact, their entire moral mechanism of forcing others to abide their personal preferences or social sensibilities is one they see as immoral everywhere else. They would force a freedom from religion, as if forcing religion on others was in principle different. They would force others to treat minorities equally, but enslaving them is using the exact same in-principle rationale.
Moral subjectivists want there to be some kind of distinction between “morality” and other personal preferences and social sensibilities to purchase a rationale for imposing their views on others, and will refer to moral views as “really strong” feelings; but, no matter how strong those feelings are, unless they posit morality as something else in principle than subjective feelings or social sensibilities, their behavior is the in-principle equivalent of any other moral view.

But, they certainly do not behave that way; they behave (like any moral objectivist) as if they have some authority and obligation beyond what can be accounted for by personal preference and social sensibility, no matter how strong such feelings are. There is an operational boundary between what one is willing to do for what one recognizes as matters of subjective personal taste and social sensibility, and what one is willing to do in cases where an objective, necessary and self-evident boundary is being crossed.
No amount of equivocation can hide the difference in how one behaves when it comes to serious moral matters and matters of personal preference/social sensibility.

Here ends WJM’s comment.

WJM’s interlocutor at this time was a buffoon who styles himself “hrun0815.” Said buffoon responded to the comment as follows:

“Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe.” I take it that “TL;DR” is internet shorthand for “too long; didn’t read.” If that is the case, hrun0815 has proven himself unworthy of being taken seriously on these pages, and I would encourage our readers and posters simply to ignore him.

Comments
Mark, I don't think it is possible to have a rational discussion with you. It is a waste of time to try. Adios.StephenB
January 20, 2015
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Andre, It is a pity that all you take away from the biological work in the linked textbook is that at times biologists make assumptions. Making assumptions, drawing provisional conclusions and formulating hypotheses are fundamental parts of the scientific method. The crux is that the biologists don't leave it at that - they then devise experiments that can either confirm or reject their proposed hypotheses. You seem not to have noticed the abundance of observations, facts and experimental analyses that are also clearly presented in that chapter. Let me highlight a few: Thus, in Drosophila different individual foraging behaviours are caused by differences in alleles of the for gene, while in honeybees the switch in behaviour within individuals is caused by changes in for gene expression. --------------------------- Males produce a courtship song by vibrating their wings and the temporal pattern of the song varies between species. Breeding experiments and molecular genetic analysis reveal that these differences in song structure are caused by differences in the period gene. Transfer of a small piece of the period gene from D.simulans to D. melanogaster causes melanogaster males to produce the simulans song rather than melanogaster song ------------------------------- Variation in the same gene controls colour in the rock pocket mouse (Chaetodipus intermedius). In the Pinacate desert of Arizona, the mouse occurs in two colour forms. Dark, melanic mice live on black lava flows while sandy coloured mice live in sandy, desert habitat. There is selective predation by owls against mice which do not match their background (Nachman et al ., 2003) ------------------- Peter Berthold and colleagues have investigated the genetic basis for migration distance and direction in blackcaps, Sylvia atricapilla (Fig. 1.3a). Populations in southern Germany are highly migratory while those in the Canary Islands are sedentary. When birds from these two populations were cross-bred in aviaries, their offspring showed intermediate migratory restlessness, suggesting genetic control (Fig. 1.3b). Selection experiments confirmed that there was a genetic basis to differences in migration behaviour. There is more. Are you still claiming that natural selection cannot act on behaviours, even after you have been shown the evidence that certain behaviours are genetically determined? fGfaded_Glory
January 20, 2015
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SB When I read what you have written I despair at Internet debates as a means of communication. It feels like all the thousands of words I have written in the last few days have been wasted. No doubt you have similar feelings about what you have written. Looking through your comments I think I should try once more to explain my position and then pick up a couple of specific misunderstandings. Also I would very much like to know your response to this question I raised last time with respect to the aliens who have words for “conform to the moral law”. They just have words for conforming to the NML – period.  They don’t see any particular interest or importance to conforming to the NML – it just part of their growing library of observations about human behaviour. They have not even noticed that people seem to get excited about whether other people   conform or not.  So in this circumstance are the words wiggly and squiggly equivalent to “morally bad” and “morally good”, or have they missed an essential element? And if so, what is it?   My position is that   a) I have reasons for specific moral judgements such as using 10 year old girls as suicide bombers is evil.   b) Those reasons are things like the suffering involved.   c) For any reason X, logically you can always ask “and  why  is X bad?” So you can ask why is suffering bad? (This is another way of putting Hume’s is/ought gap and it applies to any reason you might offer as well).   d) However, the chain has to stop somewhere. For me it stops at a collection of things like “causes suffering”. If you really have to question why suffering is bad (and I don’t think you do) then we are so far apart in our moral feelings that no kind of debate would be possible on a specific moral issue.   e) Those end-points are my subjective feelings. So I have a passionate subjective feeling that I want suffering to be minimised. I don’t find anything wrong with that. In the end all action is powered by feelings. Reason can help you understand the consequences of what you do – it can’t tell you what you want to do.   f) You might legitimately ask what distinguishes those moral feelings from other feelings such as I want to be comfortable and loved. This is the hardest question because the best way to describe them is that they are moral  feelings which is circular. They are a loosely connected set of feelings that are to do with the satisfaction of sacrificing my personal comforts to see others benefit – but that does not do justice to them.   Now for a couple of specific misunderstandings.
In the early part, you placed a heavy emphasis on the majority view only to tell me later that you don’t base your views on other people’s reasons.
I only mentioned the majority view in order to explain why is was not the basis of subjective morality. I really don’t know where you got this from.  
So this is where we are. After yet another marathon discussion with its bizarre twists and turns, you finally acknowledge that we were right all along. Your philosophy is based on feelings, not reasons.
As I hope I have explained above my philosophy is based on both – my reasons are feelings.
Notice, though, that even when you call things by their right name, that is, when you indicate that your morality is based on your feelings, not your “reasons.” you immediately and abruptly move the goalposts again and start discussing other people’s feelings, as if that were relevant to your argument (though, as we have discovered, it isn’t really an argument at all, it is a conviction based on your personal feelings, not others’ feelings).
Where did this come from? I only discussed other people’s feelings in the sense that they contribute to their moral judgements just as mine contribute to mine.
The answer to this question should be obvious. When we do good, we contribute to our good and the good of others.
I think you may be in danger of playing on words here. When you write “our good and the good of others” do you mean what you approve of as morally good or do you mean things like our comfort and happiness? If the former, this is circular. If the latter, I ask “And why is that morally good?”.
They teach us how to love. It isn’t solely about “feeling love,” though that is a good thing. It is about performing loving actions based on realistic and objective standards that define what it means to love in a selfless way.
So why is performing loving actions in selfless way morally good?
Your purpose is to love others and be happy. (Most of all, it is to love God, but you are not ready for that yet).
So why is fulfilling my purpose, loving others and loving God morally good?
Morality is a set of principles that bind us to act morally, which would certainly include the elements of encouraging and discouraging. But it also includes many other things such as enduring and waiting. Should we, therefore, define morality as a principle that includes action imperatives like enduring and waiting? No, there is a lot to it than that, just as there is a lot more to it that encouraging and discouraging.
I did not mean to limit the actions associated with moral behaviour to encouraging and discouraging – only to use them as examples. It is an interesting discussion as to which actions are essential parts of morality and which are just loosely associated. Which leads me back to the question at the top.Mark Frank
January 20, 2015
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Mark Frank
Yes they are feelings (the word “just” rather belittles them) – feelings that I really don’t want people and animals to suffer, feelings that I want rewards and punishments to be distributed equally unless there is reason not to, feelings that I want people to keep to their commitments. That is what subjectivism means. It doesn’t mean those feelings are trivial.
Surely, you can grasp the problem here, Mark. Think back on our journey. Literally hundreds of times we have pointed out that subjective morality is not and cannot be grounded in reason. It is based solely on the subjectivist’s feelings, preferences, and personal biases. You beg to differ, insisting that the subjectivist’s view on morality is misunderstood. In that context, you say that you can present reasons to support such notions, and you ask only that we give you a fair hearing. It seems to me that I have given you ample opportunity to make your case, but it is clear that the arguments presented have no substance. In the early part, you placed a heavy emphasis on the majority view only to tell me later that you don’t base your views on other people’s reasons. Very well. Naturally, I reverted back to the same question that I have been asking all along: What, then, are your reasons for believing in subjective morality? In response, you stated that two important elements of your subjectivist reasoning involve an antipathy to suffering and injustice. The real question, though, as I continue to point out, is this: Why, in your judgment, are suffering and injustice bad things. What are your “reasons” for saying that they are bad? To be sure, I know why they are bad: As an advocate of objective morality and the natural moral law, I know that “bad” means an absence of some objective good. Suffering is an absence of sustenance, health, or peace of mind, and injustice is an absence of justice; that is what makes them bad things. Those are reasons, not feelings By contrast, you don’t believe that any such thing as an objective good exists, so you cannot say that suffering and injustice are bad things on the grounds they represent a lack of some objective good. As it turns out, you really don’t have any rationale for saying that these things are bad. You can say that these things exist, but you can pass no judgment on their moral or ontological worth because you have no rational means of making that assessment. In the final analysis, your antipathy toward them is based solely on your feelings. You don’t “like” suffering and injustice, but you really can’t say anything against them. You cannot say that they “ought not to be” So this is where we are. After yet another marathon discussion with its bizarre twists and turns, you finally acknowledge that we were right all along. Your philosophy is based on feelings, not reasons. As you put it,
Yes they are feelings (the word “just” rather belittles them) – feelings that I really don’t want people and animals to suffer, feelings that I want rewards and punishments to be distributed equally unless there is reason not to, feelings that I want people to keep to their commitments. That is what subjectivism means. It doesn’t mean those feelings are trivial.
Notice, though, that even when you call things by their right name, that is, when you indicate that your morality is based on your feelings, not your “reasons.” you immediately and abruptly move the goalposts again and start discussing other people’s feelings, as if that were relevant to your argument (though, as we have discovered, it isn’t really an argument at all, it is a conviction based on your personal feelings, not others’ feelings).
I think you know the next step in the argument. If you define “good” as conforming to the NML or fulfilling God’s purpose of whatever – why do you want to do it?
The answer to this question should be obvious. When we do good, we contribute to our good and the good of others. Yes, for Christians, God’s otherworldly purposes loom large, but good actions also make this world a better place while bad actions cause the very things you disdain, suffering and injustice. Indeed, that is one of the reasons (not the only reason) that they are bad.
In the end the reasons have to stop somewhere. My reasons stop at “avoid suffering etc”, yours stop at “conform to the NML”.
No, no, no. The Natural Moral Law is a means to an end; it is not an end in itself. The purpose of the natural moral law is to foster happiness and eliminate unnecessary suffering. The Natural Moral Law, the Ten Commandments, and the Sermon on the Mount serve as the instruction manual for human beings. They teach us how to love. It isn’t solely about “feeling love,” though that is a good thing. It is about performing loving actions based on realistic and objective standards that define what it means to love in a selfless way. The purpose for putting oil in your car is to keep in running smoothly and prevent it from ruin; the purpose of the natural moral law is to keep your life running smoothly and prevent you from ruin. The purpose of your car is not to drink oil. Its purpose is to serve you. Your purpose is not to follow laws. Your purpose is to love others and be happy. (Most of all, it is to love God, but you are not ready for that yet).
...the prescriptive element – the encouraging and discouraging – is absolutely core to morality. Morality is a part of the way we live not an objective property. I am not trying to avoid moral issues but (for me at least) this is a meta-discussion about what kind of thing moral issues are. To give an analogy – we are debating the rules of chess not chess strategy.
Morality is a set of principles that bind us to act morally, which would certainly include the elements of encouraging and discouraging. But it also includes many other things such as enduring and waiting. Should we, therefore, define morality as a principle that includes action imperatives like enduring and waiting? No, there is a lot to it than that, just as there is a lot more to it that encouraging and discouraging. Accordingly, I think your attempt to conflate the principle with the action and make it all of one piece is misguided. A principle is a principle and an action is an action; a principle is not an action. This is why we have language, to make distinctions. It is a misuse of language to call one thing by another name. In ethics and religion, orthodoxy (correct belief) is distinguished from Orthopraxy (right action). It would be a terrible intellectual error to define one as the other or conflate them into a single unit. Yes, they are related, but they are not the same thing. There are many corollaries implicit in individual moral principles that can be illuminated by the natural moral law. “Thou Shalt Not Steal,” also means, “Thou Shalt Be Generous.” It also means, “Thou Shalt Love THY Neighbor Such That You Wouldn’t Dream of Taking Away His Goods.” It is much more important to probe morality at its deepest level so we can know how to translate these laws into loving actions. The last thing we need to do is conflate them with specific action imperatives, such as encouraging and discouraging--imperatives that are already implied in the principle anyway, while excluding other action imperatives that are equally important, such as enduring, waiting, rebuking, supporting, protecting, educating, training, loving, sacrificing etc. The list is almost endless.StephenB
January 20, 2015
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I'll give you another example On the Origin of Species Chapter 1: Variation under domestication Assume used 4 times Suppose used 9 times Imagine used 1 time Believe used 23 times Chapter 2: Variation under Nature Assume used 1 time Suppose used 5 times Imagine not used Believe used 4 times Chapter 3: Struggle for existence Assume used 1 time Suppose used 1 time Imagine used 1 time Believe used 8 times Chapter 4: Natural Selection Assume used 3 times Suppose used 35 times Imagine not used Believe used 30 times You can do this exercise yourself. When a paper uses "suppose" 35 times and "believe" 30 times in its chapter that explains the fundamental aspect of its theory the alarm bells should go off.........Andre
January 20, 2015
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faded_glory I've given your recommendation a reading, now before I begin to highlight the problem, I need to make a comment, I can do this because I've got the relevant experience. Atheists and materialist are the most superstitious people you will ever meet, I am certain this is the case because on an intellectual level they don't really understand how to differentiate fact from fiction. Why do I say that? Well let me show you and once you've master this trick you will be well on your way to become a recovering Darwinist. From your book;
In terms of evolutionary history or phylogeny. This answer would be about how song had evolved in starlings from their avian ancestors. The most primitive living birds make very simple sounds, so it is reasonable to assume that the complex songs of starlings and other song birds have evolved from simpler ancestral calls.
Imagine a species of bird in which a female lays two eggs and there is no over-exploitation of the food resources. Suppose the tendency to lay two eggs is inherited. Now consider a mutant that lays three eggs. Since the population is not over-exploiting its food supplies, there will be plenty of food for the young and because the three-egg genotype produces 50% more offspring it will rapidly increase at the expense of the two-egg genotype.
What he attempted to explain was how adaptation ,could have arisen without a creator or, put another way, how you could get the appearance of design without a designer.
So lets look at this paper..... We have; Assumptions, imagine, could, suppose..... These are not empirical observations are they? No they are just fluff conjured in the minds of people that really wish they could explain away design in nature. This book is also a religious work and not scientific at all because it is promoting naturalism which really is just another belief system, like Buddhism, Hindi or Christianity. You are gullible because you don't know what to look for. Try my advice the next time you read a paper look for these words and instead of swallowing up the nonsense as Gospel truth question it, and hold onto the good.Andre
January 20, 2015
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Echoing Mark Frank, faded_Glory neatly encapsulates the fallacy in WJM's thinking. William, I too would be interested in seeing your response to
So now I challenge you to demonstrate why normative moral relativism ( c) has to follow logically from meta-ethical moral relativism (b). Can you do that?
Alicia Renard
January 20, 2015
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In my view, freedom of thought is more absolute even than freedom of speech.
Lay of the sci-fi juice for a bit, you speak as if thoughts are somehow material things that can be controlled...... Seriously neither you nor anybody else in the existence of the universe can read or control thought........ Atheists say the darnest things!Andre
January 20, 2015
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Just to add a clarification. Personally, I don't really bother to judge other people's moral standards. What they think and believe about good and bad is none of my business and doesn't really affect me. In my view, freedom of thought is more absolute even than freedom of speech. What I do criticise and judge, and what I may activate against, is their actions insofar as those negatively affect the welfare of myself, the ones I care about, and other innocent people. If such actions go against my moral standards I criticise them not only because of their negative effect but also because of their negative intent. I believe that all people have the right to do this. In no way does this mean that therefore I somehow lose that right myself when there is a conflict in moral viewpoints. fGfaded_Glory
January 20, 2015
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#268 FG Nice clear comment (I wish we had a like button)Mark Frank
January 20, 2015
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William J Murray: Try and understand this: everyone except sociopaths already acts and lives as if morality is an objective commodity. I’ve said this several times now; apparently, you don’t comprehend what it means. IOW, sociopaths demonstrate what it means to actually live as a logically consistent moral subjectivist. Everyone else demonstrates the panoply of behaviors that are consistent with moral objectivity under the guidance of free will and various levels of reasoning and introspective capacity, even if they don’t believe in objective morality and free will. What you refer to as “subjective morality”, probably in reference to your own views and behaviors and those of other such self-styled moral subjectivists, is not subjective morality at all, but rather objective morality dressed up with misleading terms and phrases that serve anti-theistic ideological bias. I’m not making the case that others should become moral objectivists; I’m making the case that you’re already a de facto moral objectivist essentially living in denial. I think I see where the problem lies. From the above I understand that you believe that subjective morality is: 1. the position that there exists no objective moral standard outside of the human mind, 2. that every person has their own moral standard, 3. that these are all different to some degree, 4. and and that these are all equally valid. -which leads to the logical problem that nobody has the right to critisise anyone else's moral standards. However, subjectivists still do this, so they are not real subjectivists even if they claim otherwise. Do I get this right? It is perhaps time to get a bit more technical about our concepts and definitions. Wikipedia has a page about Moral Relativism which seems to cover what we here call Subjective Morality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism They describe three subsets of Moral Relativism: a. Descriptive moral relativism holds only that some people do in fact disagree about what is moral. b. Meta-ethical moral relativism holds that in such disagreements, nobody is objectively right or wrong. c. Normative moral relativism holds that because nobody is right or wrong, we ought to tolerate the behavior of others even when we disagree about the morality of it. I would argue that descriptive moral relativism (a) is a fact of life. Sure, there may be people whose acts go against their own sense of right and wrong, but in many cases the perpetrators of what we consider crimes do sincerely believe that they act for the moral good. Violent religious and political conflicts would be prime examples of this. What the moral subjectivists in the discussion here are arguing for is meta-ethical moral relativism (b) - when different people have different moral values, nobody is objectively wrong. This is because there exists no objective standard of morality outside of the individual's minds. What you are arguing is that normative moral relativism ( c) follows logically from (b), but that in practice nobody acts as if ( c) is true, which makes their position logically inconsistent. I agree with you that in practice nobody (or very few) will act as if ( c) is true. What I disagree with is that ( c) follows logically from (b). If it doesn't, there is no logical problem with meta-ethical moral relativism (i.e. subjective morality as I use the term), and in fact it corresponds closer to observed reality because we all know that it is true that different people have different concepts of right and wrong, and also the challenge of demonstrating the existence of an objective moral standard has never been met (you agree with the latter since you only assume it exists). So now I challenge you to demonstrate why normative moral relativism ( c) has to follow logically from meta-ethical moral relativism (b). Can you do that? fGfaded_Glory
January 20, 2015
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Andre, I said, show me this evidence! I pointed you to some of the evidence in the link to the textbook by Davies, Krebs and West. There is a lot more out there. Out of interest, Nature had a glowing review of this book here: http://www.zoo.ox.ac.uk/group/west/pdf/Milinski_Nature_Review.pdf Why is there something rather than nothing? I don't know and neither do you. fGfaded_Glory
January 20, 2015
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SB #263   I am slightly disappointed. I have done the “morality is objective” argument hundreds of times on UD over the years and have recently avoided it because it gets repetitive. I stuck with it this time because I thought we might actually move on but some how it has slipped back into the same ruts. However, you are being very polite and listening so I will go on for a bit.
Yes, I understand, but that seems to beg the question. Taking it back one step, what are your reasons for thinking suffering is a bad thing? My reasons are clear. A suffering person lacks some objective good that he ought to have, ie. sustenance, health, or peace of mind. But you don’t believe that any such thing as an objective good exists. So, I don’t understand your reason for thinking that suffering is a bad thing. Also, we have the same problem with your second reason. To say that something is “unfair,” is equally problematic for a subjectivist. As a proponent of the NML, I can say that something is unfair because it doesn’t conform to an objective standard of justice. But you don’t believe that any such standard exists, so your notion of fairness would have to be totally arbitrary and based on whim.
Under the circumstances, then, I would say that your “reasons” aren’t really reasons. I think they are just personal preferences or feelings.
Yes they are feelings (the word “just” rather belittles them) – feelings that I really don’t want people and animals to suffer, feelings that I want rewards and punishments to be distributed equally unless there is reason not to, feelings that I want people to keep to their commitments. That is what subjectivism means. It doesn’t mean those feelings are trivial. I think you know the next step in the argument. If you define “good” as conforming to the NML or fulfilling God’s purpose of whatever – why do you want to do it? In the end the reasons have to stop somewhere. My reasons stop at “avoid suffering etc”, yours stop at “conform to the NML”. The subjectivist position is that in both cases this is morality. But we have been over this many, many times before I know the moves in the debate.  The next bit is more novel ….  
If the aliens in question understand that conforming to the NML is a good thing and that flouting it is a bad thing, then it seems to me that they are using different words to say the same thing that I say. If they don’t get excited about it, it is because they are not part of the drama. If humans practice virtue and love each other, the aliens will not be edified, if humans fall into vice and hate each other, the aliens will not be harmed. What is there to get excited about?
But I didn’t say they understand that conforming to the NML is a good thing. They just have words for conforming to the NML – period.  They don’t see any particular interest or importance to conforming to the NML – it just part of their growing library of observations about human behaviour. They have not even noticed that people seem to get excited about whether other people   conform or not.  So in this circumstance are the words wiggly and squiggly equivalent to “morally bad” and “morally good”, or have they missed an essential element? And if so, what is it?  
In any case, what are the consequences of believing that all moral language is prescriptive or is not prescriptive? How will it change the human drama either way? It seems like a useless academic exercise to me–something that was conceived to avoid the real moral issues.
Because what I am trying to demonstrate is that the human drama – the prescriptive element – the encouraging and discouraging – is absolutely core to morality. Morality is a part of the way we live not an objective property. I am not trying to avoid moral issues but (for me at least) this is a meta-discussion about what kind of thing moral issues are. To give an analogy – we are debating the rules of chess not  chess strategy.Mark Frank
January 19, 2015
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faded_glory You said;
Finally, of course natural selection can work on immaterial things. Animal behaviour has a direct influence on their reproductive success. Come to think of it, so does human behaviour.
I said, show me this evidence! Then you said you don't think it true but I should check it out anyway..... Did you ever consider that I have? Did you ever consider that for the most part of my life I did actually believe this tripe but when I applied my mind and studied it in detail I came to the conclusion that it is just fluff....... That is what Darwinism is, its fluff and its a distraction of the mind, that has to actually at sometime confront the hard question? Why is there something rather than nothing?Andre
January 19, 2015
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SB: But you don’t believe that any such thing as an objective good exists This really is annoying. Could you tell us 2 things: (a) Where does an objective good come from ? (b) Your evidence for this.Graham2
January 19, 2015
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Mark Frank
I prefer reasons.
OK.
My reasons for judging something morally good or bad are various. Let’s take bad – causes suffering, unfair (in the sense of giving rewards or pain unequally for no reason), failure to meet commitments – there are probably others I haven’t thought about.
Yes, I understand, but that seems to beg the question. Taking it back one step, what are your reasons for thinking suffering is a bad thing? My reasons are clear. A suffering person lacks some objective good that he ought to have, ie. sustenance, health, or peace of mind. But you don't believe that any such thing as an objective good exists. So, I don't understand your reason for thinking that suffering is a bad thing. Also, we have the same problem with your second reason. To say that something is "unfair," is equally problematic for a subjectivist. As a proponent of the NML, I can say that something is unfair because it doesn't conform to an objective standard of justice. But you don't believe that any such standard exists, so your notion of fairness would have to be totally arbitrary and based on whim. Under the circumstances, then, I would say that your "reasons" aren't really reasons. I think they are just personal preferences or feelings.
Let me try to be more specific. This race (quite possibly alien) observes mankind going about its business. It has a copy of the natural moral code and being thorough types they note down acts that are against the code – murder, robbery, being late for dinner parties etc – and also acts that conform the code – saving people from drowning, giving to charity, abstaining from smelly food on trains. (noting down moral facts if you like) They call the first type wiggly acts and the second type squiggly. However, they are not at all excited or concerned about whether an act is wiggly or squiggly and take no measures to encourage or deter them. The words wiggly and squiggly exactly match your definitions of morally bad and morally good. However, I am sure you will agree they are not using the words with the same meaning as we do. It is part of calling something morally right or wrong, good or bad, that it expresses your reaction and that you encourage or deter that type of thing.
If the aliens in question understand that conforming to the NML is a good thing and that flouting it is a bad thing, then it seems to me that they are using different words to say the same thing that I say. If they don't get excited about it, it is because they are not part of the drama. If humans practice virtue and love each other, the aliens will not be edified, if humans fall into vice and hate each other, the aliens will not be harmed. What is there to get excited about? In any case, what are the consequences of believing that all moral language is prescriptive or is not prescriptive? How will it change the human drama either way? It seems like a useless academic exercise to me--something that was conceived to avoid the real moral issues.StephenB
January 19, 2015
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faded_glory said:
How do you solve this conundrum?
That some people are right about some things, and others are wrong, is not a "conundrum"; it's a fact inherent to all objective phenomena that are being imperfectly sensed and interpreted by subjective viewers.
I suspect that all you can do is decide that you have a more refined sense than them, therefore you are right and they are wrong. Am I correct?
Certainly not. There is always the potential for error. Sometimes differences between objective morality perspectives can be resolved; sometimes they cannot, but those arguments are worth making (necessary consequences) and at least offer the potential that a person can reason that their view is incorrect. Subjective morality doesn't offer those capacities. Subjective morality cannot be "wrong", and such arguments aren't worth making (outside of selfishly wanting others to behave as you do).
If so, you are making yourself the measure of all things moral.
I certainly don't hold myself to be a very good assessor of what is moral - my moral compass, my conscience, suffered far too much damage during my atheist/materialist days for me to put much faith in my capacity to state anything other than the morally self-evident and the morally necessary. I strive to be good enough. That's about it.
How is this any different from subjective morality?
Perhaps you are thinking that there is some operational difference or some result difference I'm claiming will occur if someone accepts that morality refers to an objective commodity. If so, then you haven't been paying attention at all. Try and understand this: everyone except sociopaths already acts and lives as if morality is an objective commodity. I've said this several times now; apparently, you don't comprehend what it means. IOW, sociopaths demonstrate what it means to actually live as a logically consistent moral subjectivist. Everyone else demonstrates the panoply of behaviors that are consistent with moral objectivity under the guidance of free will and various levels of reasoning and introspective capacity, even if they don't believe in objective morality and free will. What you refer to as "subjective morality", probably in reference to your own views and behaviors and those of other such self-styled moral subjectivists, is not subjective morality at all, but rather objective morality dressed up with misleading terms and phrases that serve anti-theistic ideological bias. I'm not making the case that others should become moral objectivists; I'm making the case that you're already a de facto moral objectivist essentially living in denial.William J Murray
January 19, 2015
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Graham2:
Just repeating what FG has already said, this is nothing more than a plea for subjective morality. Took a while, but you got there.
No, it's not. They are two entirely different things.William J Murray
January 19, 2015
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Bah, the HTML tag is not working properly. You can try copy and paste this URL: http://www.zoo.ox.ac.uk/group/west/pdf/Davies_etal_Chapter1.pdf fG Edited to add: I think this one works now.faded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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Hm, let me try that again then: http://www.zoo.ox.ac.uk/group/west/pdf/Davies_etal_Chapter1.pdf Hopefully this will work now. fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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SB #249
What are your reasons for judging an act to be morally wrong? What is the standard for your moral judgments?
I think I have answered this before but here goes again. I think “standard” is the wrong word – that implies a top down inflexible criterion. I prefer reasons. My reasons for judging something morally good or bad are various. Let’s take bad – causes suffering, unfair (in the sense of giving rewards or pain unequally for no reason), failure to meet commitments – there are probably others I haven’t thought about. SB #250
I don’t understand why that must be true. Some moral language is definitive; some is descriptive; some is prescriptive. It may also simply refer to a moral fact. OR, it may entail a definition.
This is best addressed by the example below.
MF: Imagine a race that had obtained a copy of the NML (possibly from you!) and noted down whether actions conformed to the NML, called such actions squiggly, but took no other notice of the results i.e. did not act on them in anyway. Would you say that “squiggly” meant “good”? I don’t think so. It just means conforming to the NML.
SB: I am not following your example. How can an “action that conforms to the NML” also be an example of someone who didn’t “act on it, anyway.”
Just come up with an everyday example of a moral problem, killing, stealing, lying, etc. Relate it to your claim that moral language is always prescriptive.
Let me try to be more specific. This race (quite possibly alien)  observes mankind going about its business. It has a copy of the natural moral code and being thorough types they note down acts that are against the code – murder, robbery, being late for dinner parties etc – and also acts that conform the code – saving people from drowning, giving to charity, abstaining from smelly food on trains. (noting down moral facts if you like) They call the first type wiggly acts and the second type squiggly. However, they are not at all excited or concerned about whether an act is wiggly or squiggly and take no measures to encourage or deter them. The words wiggly and squiggly exactly match your definitions of morally bad and morally good. However, I am sure you will agree they are not using the words with the same meaning as we do. It is part of calling something morally right or wrong, good or bad, that it expresses your reaction and that you encourage or deter that type of thing. I think there is a chink of an opportunity for closing the gap between us here. If you understand and accept that there is a prescriptive element to moral judgements then I think the key differences between us are: * I take the prescriptive element as being what defines morality. The descriptive element is just whatever leads to that prescriptive reaction. It varies from one person to another although as a matter of fact a core of similar things lead to that prescriptive reaction in most people. * You think morality must include a descriptive element as well and that specifically that descriptive element is “to what extent does X conform to the NML”. And that people (sometimes without knowing it) are trying to describe how closely something corresponds to the NML when they make moral judgements (as well as doing the prescriptive bit) – although may do this badly for various reasons. It seems to that the observed results would be very similar in both cases although I am still a bit confused how people can be trying to describe how something conforms to a code they have never heard of or seen – but maybe that’s where God comes in.Mark Frank
January 19, 2015
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WJM @243: You can tell by honestly exploring what your conscience tells you using reason and going forward by refining both your conscience and your ability to correctly apply logic Just repeating what FG has already said, this is nothing more than a plea for subjective morality. Took a while, but you got there.Graham2
January 19, 2015
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StephenB: A good example of things that exist without location would be Justice, fairness, truth, beauty, unity, equality, concepts, virtue, vice etc. They are abstract realities; they are not made of matter. Only something that is made of matter and is extended in time and space can exist at a location. Where is truth located? How much does it weigh? What are its dimensions? If you think carefully, you will realize that it has no weight, dimension, or location. If it did, people would have to visit the place to come in contact with it. If it was too heavy, they couldn’t carry it. If it was too bulky, they couldn’t take hold of it. Nevertheless, truth exists as an abstract principle. Abstractions cannot actually be found anywhere in the world except in people's thoughts and intercourse, and, as a derivation of this, in recorded media such as books etc. Therefore, it is reasonable to hold that abstractions are real, and that they exist as mental processes, i.e. thoughts, in the brains of people at the times when they are thinking about them. Being thoughts, they are not material but rather processes between material entities such as the neurons of a brain. I find it literally incomprehensible that abstractions would somehow have a separate existence outside of this realm. fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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KF: Don't tell us, tell all those catholic priests.Graham2
January 19, 2015
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FG, there are moral truths that are knowable, even to self evident certainty in certain cases. Try, it IS wrong and evil to kidnap, bind, torture, sexually abuse and murder a young child. Try, cor., it is our duty to try to stop such and rescue the child were we to come across this in progress. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2015
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Faded Glory
I am not sure why you suddenly use the word ‘truth’. I thought we were discussing morality?
The natural moral law is an expression of moral truth. It exists, but not as concrete matter.
Anyway, I have a real hard time understanding how something can exist without having a location (although I do realise that QM tells us that there is some fuzziness around this).
A good example of things that exist without location would be Justice, fairness, truth, beauty, unity, equality, concepts, virtue, vice etc. They are abstract realities; they are not made of matter. Only something that is made of matter and is extended in time and space can exist at a location. Where is truth located? How much does it weigh? What are its dimensions? If you think carefully, you will realize that it has no weight, dimension, or location. If it did, people would have to visit the place to come in contact with it. If it was too heavy, they couldn't carry it. If it was too bulky, they couldn't take hold of it. Nevertheless, truth exists as an abstract principle.StephenB
January 19, 2015
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Mark Franl
Moral language is prescriptive, not descriptive.
I don't understand why that must be true. Some moral language is definitive; some is descriptive; some is prescriptive.
It is asking for/demanding action not just describing whether some thing happens to match some description.
It may also simply refer to a moral fact. OR, it may entail a definition.
Imagine a race that had obtained a copy of the NML (possibly from you!) and noted down whether actions conformed to the NML, called such actions squiggly, but took no other notice of the results i.e. did not act on them in anyway. Would you say that “squiggly” meant “good”? I don’t think so. It just means conforming to the NML.
I am not following your example. How can an "action that conforms to the NML" also be an example of someone who didn't "act on it, anyway." Just come up with an everyday example of a moral problem, killing, stealing, lying, etc. Relate it to your claim that moral language is always prescriptive.StephenB
January 19, 2015
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Mark Frank
I tried to emphasis that my decision was not based on the what the majority thought. I have my own reasons. It it just so happens that the majority share most of them.
That is what I am asking. What are your reasons for judging an act to be morally wrong? What is the standard for your moral judgments?>StephenB
January 19, 2015
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William J Murray: We cannot live as if everyone’s morality is right, even those which contradict each other, which would be the case under subjective morality. Subjective morality does not hold that everyone's morality is right. It merely claims that the source of one's moral compass lies within a person, and not in some objective outside realm. fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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William J Murray, care to respond also to the remainder of my post? How do you solve this conundrum? I suspect that all you can do is decide that you have a more refined sense than them, therefore you are right and they are wrong. Am I correct? If so, you are making yourself the measure of all things moral. How is this any different from subjective morality? fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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