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WJM on Subjectivist Equivocations

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The following is from William J. Murray:

The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”. That phrasing obfuscates what the subjectivist must mean as opposed to what an objectivist means when they say the same thing.

Normally, especially in a debate like this, one would use terms and phrasings that distinguish between personal preference and an implied reference to an objective ruling/measurement. In regular conversation, there would be a situational understanding, like: “No, that’s the wrong color shoes to go with your outfit.” where the term “wrong” would be understood as a strong expression of personal aesthetics.
Usually, the line is drawn more distinctly: “It’s not the right choice for me, but it might be for you.” In a debate about morality, leaving off the qualifying terminology undermines the clarity of the argument and the capacity to recognize logical errors.
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.

When it comes to moral subjectivists, “it’s wrong to rape” or “it’s wrong to torture” cannot be anything more than statements of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, even if they are very strongly felt and believed; the onus is on the individual to recognize that their preference is just that – a personal preference (even if writ large to a social sensibility).
The question for so-called moral subjectivists is: outside of morality and ethics, would you feel comfortable forcing others to adhere to your personal preferences or your social sensibilities? Are you comfortable forcing people to not serve guacamole with halibut, or forcing them to not vote for Romney?

Now, are you comfortable intervening and forcing someone to stop raping or toturing another person?
This is the line where the obfuscating phrasing cannot go beyond, and it is where supporters of moral subjectivism cast their gaze away from the obvious distinction; even the moral subjectivist agrees that forcing personal preferences or social sensibilities upon others is itself immoral. They will fight against such things as a negative social sensibility against various minorities and certainly against individuals forcing their personal preferences on others.

Hypocritically, though, that’s all that morality is in their worldview; they are guilty of doing the very thing they deem immoral in the first place; in fact, their entire moral mechanism of forcing others to abide their personal preferences or social sensibilities is one they see as immoral everywhere else. They would force a freedom from religion, as if forcing religion on others was in principle different. They would force others to treat minorities equally, but enslaving them is using the exact same in-principle rationale.
Moral subjectivists want there to be some kind of distinction between “morality” and other personal preferences and social sensibilities to purchase a rationale for imposing their views on others, and will refer to moral views as “really strong” feelings; but, no matter how strong those feelings are, unless they posit morality as something else in principle than subjective feelings or social sensibilities, their behavior is the in-principle equivalent of any other moral view.

But, they certainly do not behave that way; they behave (like any moral objectivist) as if they have some authority and obligation beyond what can be accounted for by personal preference and social sensibility, no matter how strong such feelings are. There is an operational boundary between what one is willing to do for what one recognizes as matters of subjective personal taste and social sensibility, and what one is willing to do in cases where an objective, necessary and self-evident boundary is being crossed.
No amount of equivocation can hide the difference in how one behaves when it comes to serious moral matters and matters of personal preference/social sensibility.

Here ends WJM’s comment.

WJM’s interlocutor at this time was a buffoon who styles himself “hrun0815.” Said buffoon responded to the comment as follows:

“Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe.” I take it that “TL;DR” is internet shorthand for “too long; didn’t read.” If that is the case, hrun0815 has proven himself unworthy of being taken seriously on these pages, and I would encourage our readers and posters simply to ignore him.

Comments
StephenB @ 214 That is your subjective interpretation :-) No where is 'Morality' defined as a primordial set of rules.Me_Think
January 19, 2015
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SB
All you have to do is define the word “wrong” as you are using it. This is basic to any rational discussion.
I wrote my reply n #204. I will repeat it here with a bit of tidying up: When I say something is morally wrong I am performing a speech act (see Wittgenstein, JL Austen, Searle, R.M. Hare) which does these things: 1. Expresses a specific kind of antipathy to X (I can enlarge on this if you like) 2. Commits to trying to prevent X other things being equal 3. Because most people have the kind of antipathy mentioned in 1 for similar reasons it also implies that some subset of those reasons are present e.g. suffering, injustice, cowardice, failure to meet committments – although the exact subset will vary according to context 4. It may also express a conviction that others can be brought to share this opinion with sufficient time I am sorry I know of no simpler or shorter way of explaining what I mean. The only alternative is to substitute phrases that raise exactly the same issues about objectivity and subjectivity such as evil or blameworthy. If you think it is simple then perhaps you can tell me what you mean by "morally wrong"? (Please don't confuse this with your reasons for thinking something is morally wrong). If you think it means "off target" then explain why someone should be punished for doing something off target - in fact why any kind of action flows from simply being off-target which particular target you had in mind and why anyone else should care about that targetMark Frank
January 19, 2015
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Me--Think
There is nothing objective in morality:
That is not what the Stanford Encyclopedia says. It says that the term "morality" can be used in different ways, as is clearly the case. It makes no claim that objective morality doesn't exist.StephenB
January 19, 2015
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There is nothing objective in morality:
The term “morality” can be used either - descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or, - some other group, such as a religion, or accepted by an individual for her own behavior or - normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons. -Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Me_Think
January 19, 2015
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194
WJM: the only question is if the conscience is internally generated and thus subjective, or is a kind of sensory capacity through which a real moral landscape is being perceived.
An important argument in favor of the existence of a real moral landscape - objective morality - is the presence of brick walls: we all have to agree that certain behavior is wrong. We have no choice in the matter, we are all subordinate to a higher law - excluding psychopaths. IOW we are all forced to agree on certain moral issues.Box
January 19, 2015
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Faded Glory
When I check the definition of objective we find things like: - existing independent of or external to the mind - existing independently of perception or an individual’s conceptions - belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject
Yes, that is the correct meaning of objective.
If morality is objective, i.e. independent of people’s minds, will it still exist even when the last person on earth has died? If so, where exactly does it exist?
Objective truth does not die or change. If it could change, it wouldn't be true; if it could die, it wouldn't be abstract. Truth, unlike matter, is not extended in time and space. As an abstract reality, it has no "location."StephenB
January 19, 2015
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SB: What do you mean by "wrong" in that context?" Mark Frank
Which is exactly the same way as everyone else, including you, uses it. It just a question of describing that use in detail and precisely.
That is not a true statement. You are not using the word the way I and everyone else uses it. I explained that "wrong," by definition, means objectively wrong. It means, as the dictionary makes clear, "not in accordance with fact" "wide of the mark," "off target" Clearly, to be not in accordance with fact or wide of the mark or off target indicates a failure to measure up to an objective standard. To get a wrong answer on a test is to make a mistake about an objective fact. Thus, morally wrong means a failure to measure up to an objective moral standard. You rejected my meaning and the dictionary definition of the word, saying
I am sceptical [skeptical] that a dictionary will resolve the debate over the meaning of the word.
So please don't say that you mean the same thing that I and everyone else means. Further, we know that you reject any sense of an objectively wrong act inasmuch as you do not believe in objective morality or any objective sense of right and wrong. So, once again, I must ask you what you mean when you say that a rapist should be punished because he did something "wrong." Don't misunderstand. I know exactly what you mean. I just want you to admit it so I can explain what is wrong with it. However, if you continue to run away from the issue, we cannot move forward. All you have to do is define the word "wrong" as you are using it. This is basic to any rational discussion.StephenB
January 19, 2015
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FG: Frustrating, aint it? Natural selection can not act on that which is immaterial ... its just word-salad all the way down.Graham2
January 19, 2015
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Andre #206 I don't find it necessary to compare suffering to anything to recognise it. Do you? If so, what do you compare it to? MarkMark Frank
January 19, 2015
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The debate has moved one and I can't respond to everything that has been said in the meantime. A couple of things caught my eye though. William J Murray: We live, and must live, as if morality refers to an objective (existent in itself) commodity. No one except sociopaths can actually live as if morality is a subjective commodity. But, that doesn’t mean that objective morality actually exists; it just means that, logically and practically speaking, we must live as if it actually exists. With this statement, you have completely undermined your position. If you don't know if objective morality even exists, you cannot possibly know what it would be if it does exists. If you don't know what it would be, you cannot live by it. What you are actually doing is sticking the label 'objective' to your moral values so that you can avoid having to face the fact that they are just as subjective as everyone else's. Go ahead if it makes you feel better. I don't see how this affects the rest of us. Andre: Natural selection can not act on that which is immaterial……… It is simply not possible no matter how much you’d like it to be! For the third time I will ask you: do you think that natural selection can't act on behaviours? Or do you think that behaviours are material? Morality is about behaviours, because if thoughts never turn into actions it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Rape fantasies are harmless unless they get acted out. Animals and people who behave in ways that promote their reproduction stand a higher chance of procreating. If they can also pass on their behaviours to their offspring, as many do, over time these behaviours will become more prevalent in the population than ones that hinder their procreation. At some point they may become the norm. Couple this with self-consciousness and sufficient intelligence, and morality is born. From there it can evolve and grow, as part of the human culture. StephenB: You are keen on dictionary definitions to support your position. When I check the definition of objective we find things like: - existing independent of or external to the mind - existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions - belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject etc. If morality is objective, i.e. independent of people's minds, will it still exist even when the last person on earth has died? If so, where exactly does it exist? fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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MF
suffering, injustice, cowardice, failure to meet committments – although the exact subset will vary according to context
So what are you comparing these things to? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has an idea of what a straight line is......Andre
January 19, 2015
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Graham2
Mapou: You really are a worry.
So? what does it matter? Mapou's moral code is subjective as is yours......... Which one is correct Graham? His or yours?Andre
January 19, 2015
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SB #177
MF That sounds like you are prepared to discuss the meaning of moral language such the moral use of “wrong” after all.
SB No, I am simply asking you to define your terms.
This is a subtle distinction! “I am not prepared to discuss the meaning of wrong but I want you to tell me what you mean by it”.
When you say that rapists should be punished because rape “is wrong,” I know that you are misusing words because I know that you don’t believe any such thing as right or wrong exists.
Just because a sentence has the form X is Y it doesn’t entail that Y refers to some property of X. For example, “Casual dress is acceptable” does not refer to a property of casual dress.
I am, therefore, asking you what you mean when you use the word “wrong.”
Which is exactly the same way as everyone else, including you, uses it.  It just a question of describing that use in detail and precisely.
MF: It is complicated and subtle subject. Luckily I wrote myself a bit of an essay on the subject a few years ago. I more or less stick by what it is in it.
SB: It isn’t complicated and subtle at all. You either know what you mean or you don’t.
It is easy to know what you mean in the sense of using the language confidently. It is often extremely difficult to describe that meaning except by substituting other words that throw no light on it. I have however tried to answer your challenge in the little essay I linked to. I can summarise it if it helps: To say X is morally wrong is not describe a property of X its “wrongness”. It is a speech act (see Wittgenstein, JL Austen, Searle) which does these things: 1. Expresses a specific kind of antipathy to X (I can enlarge on this if you like) 2. Commits to trying to prevent X other things being equal 3. Because most people have the kind of antipathy mentioned in 1 for similar reasons it also implies that some subset of those reasons are present e.g. suffering, injustice, cowardice, failure to meet committments – although the exact subset will vary according to context 4. It may also express a conviction that others can be brought to share this opinion with sufficient time I am sorry it is a bit long – but I said it was complicated. Late addition to comment: I forgot to mention R.M. Hare "The Language of Morals" - easier to understand than the others and gets at the essence of it.Mark Frank
January 18, 2015
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Mapou: You really are a worry.Graham2
January 18, 2015
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Seversky
None of that tells us anything about why you ought to be so privileged, why your reproductive success should matter to anyone but you. More likely, given the high price others would pay, the response from potential victims, their families, their friends and most of the rest of society would be to tell you what you could go do with your reproductive fitness. Why should that opinion count for any less than yours?
I don't consider those I murder and rape as victims! I'm the victim here for being hindered. The spreading and survival of my genes is all that matters! I don't consider other moral values because they have no meaning to me! I'm not here to get along or be nice! That is not my moral code! I ought to be nothing because passing my genes just is!Andre
January 18, 2015
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Graham2:
I agree that if our morals are subjective, then we end up in a mess, but then that’s exactly where we are: why do you think we have such endless arguments about what is right ?
Both Zen Buddhism and Christianity teach us what objective morality is. It can be summed up with one word: UNITY. This is the reason that Jesus prayed to the Father thus, "Let them [humanity] be ONE with us as we are ONE together." Only opposites are ONE. Jesus and the Father are opposites in the true yin and yang sense of the word. That is to say, the Father is the Master and Jesus is the servant. They are ONE by virtue of being opposites. By analogy, the two hemispheres of the brain are ONE, meaning that one hemisphere is the master and the other is the slave. Otherwise, we'd be in a heap of trouble because we would be of two minds. One day, humanity, too, will become ONE with God. It's very simple, really.Mapou
January 18, 2015
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Graham2
We could never function as a social species if we didn’t inherit some basic rules.
You have to show me how morality evolved from non-morality, please.......... Natural selection can not act on that which is immaterial......... It is simply not possible no matter how much you'd like it to be!Andre
January 18, 2015
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But on what basis does God decide what is immoral or moral? Is it his arbitrary personal preference? If it is, then aren't we back to square one, only with someone else in charge rather than ourselves?onething
January 18, 2015
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Graham2 said:
I agree that if our morals are subjective, then we end up in a mess, but then that’s exactly where we are: why do you think we have such endless arguments about what is right ?
If our morals are considered subjective, our moral system necessarily ends up a logical mess (unless one is a sociopath and subscribes to the moral maxim "because I feel like it"). Only the premise that morality is objective can straighten out the logical mess subjectivists find themselves in. If you're talking about a "mess" of competing ideas between different people about what behavior is moral, that's entirely irrelevant to my argument and doesn't impact it one bit.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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I agree that if our morals are subjective, then we end up in a mess, but then that's exactly where we are: why do you think we have such endless arguments about what is right ?Graham2
January 18, 2015
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Graham2
If there was some sort of objective standard (real moral landscape ?) then we should see some evidence for it,
The argument has nothing to do with whether or not objective morality actually exists or can be evidenced.
The simplest explanation is that we are each making decisions according to our own internal rules.
The argument is about how logically consistent and functionally practical the explanatory model is, not how simple it is. Moral subjectivism is a logical mess and cannot even be employed as a moral modus operandi in the real world other than by sociopaths.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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WJM: You seem to be making a meal of this. We make moral decisions all the time, every moment of the day. I have no idea how my brain/consciousness does it, but it ends up delivering a decision & I act. If there was some sort of objective standard (real moral landscape ?) then we should see some evidence for it, but what we see is everyone making their own decisions as they go along. The simplest explanation is that we are each making decisions according to our own internal rules. If you propose some sort of external standard, then you have your work ahead of you, explaining to us the evidence for this.Graham2
January 18, 2015
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graham2 said:
‘Free will’. Love it. If each person carries around a different moral compass, then either objective morality doesn’t exist, or it does but we are oblivious of its presence. Either way, its effectively not there.
No sane, non-sociopathic entity is "oblivious" to the information their conscience delivers to them; the only question is if the conscience is internally generated and thus subjective, or is a kind of sensory capacity through which a real moral landscape is being perceived. Free Will can be used to deny the conscience, degrade it, refine it, use reason to interpret it, pursue understanding of what it represents, ignore it in favor of other things, etc. Just because people have different ideas about what morality is doesn't mean morality is subjective, any more than the existence of conflicting eye-witness testimony means that no actual crime occurred.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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Logical consequences are irrelevant to any theory of social behavior.
That would matter if I was attempting to construct a theory of social behavior. I'm not. My debate has always been about the logical ramifications derived from the premises.
What counts are the empirical consequences.
"What counts" depends on what the argument is about and why the argument is being made. The purpose of my argument is to demonstrate that the logical ramifications of subjective morality are internally incoherent and impossible to actually live in accordance with. The purpose of my argument is not to prove objective morality exists and is not to demonstrate one superior to the other in practice (which would be an interesting conundrum, given "morality" could literally mean anything if subjective in nature.)
When you have evidence to support the hypothesis that the empirical consequences of belief in objective morality trump the empirical consequences of belief in subjective morality, let the world know.
One wonders what "trump" might mean here. "Produce a more moral outcome", perhaps? How could any system be measured to produce a more moral outcome than another if morality is itself subjective? Your challenge presumes an objective moral basis for such a comparison.
In passing, you might provide criteria for evaluating the empirical consequences of either belief. How do you score “better” behavior?
That's your argument, not mine.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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WJM: 'Free will'. Love it. If each person carries around a different moral compass, then either objective morality doesn't exist, or it does but we are oblivious of its presence. Either way, its effectively not there.Graham2
January 18, 2015
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Graham2 said:
“BTW, your hero W Lane Craig uses the existence of objective morality as an argument for the existence of god.”
Where on earth did you get the idea that Craig is my hero?William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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Graham2 said:
No, objective morality doesn’t exist.
Since I doubt anyone can substantively support such an assertion of a universal negative, I marvel at your materialist faith. At least I can admit that I don't know if it exists or not.
Your ‘objective morality’ is a religious construct.
I think your "objective morality doesn't exist" certainty is more a religious construct than my position of not knowing whether it exists or not.
Why do we have endless,endless,endless arguments about all the moral issues of the day ?
Free will, I would imagine - which is another thing we must live as if it exists, whether it does or not. Unfortunately, such arguments seem to be outside of your wheelhouse.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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Me_Think @ 188 "We have a morality gene ? so morality is ‘materialistic’ ? Wow." I was only following Graham2's statements. I don't think any such thing. As I posted before, I think that we have inherited a built in objective morality from God, as we were created in His image. I am not asking you to believe that, just trying to work out where Graham2 believes morality comes from in a materialists view.Cross
January 18, 2015
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Cross @ 186 We have a morality gene ? so morality is 'materialistic' ? Wow.Me_Think
January 18, 2015
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I doubt that its a 'gene' (singular). We don't all have the same face, do we ?Graham2
January 18, 2015
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