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WJM on Subjectivist Equivocations

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The following is from William J. Murray:

The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”. That phrasing obfuscates what the subjectivist must mean as opposed to what an objectivist means when they say the same thing.

Normally, especially in a debate like this, one would use terms and phrasings that distinguish between personal preference and an implied reference to an objective ruling/measurement. In regular conversation, there would be a situational understanding, like: “No, that’s the wrong color shoes to go with your outfit.” where the term “wrong” would be understood as a strong expression of personal aesthetics.
Usually, the line is drawn more distinctly: “It’s not the right choice for me, but it might be for you.” In a debate about morality, leaving off the qualifying terminology undermines the clarity of the argument and the capacity to recognize logical errors.
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.

When it comes to moral subjectivists, “it’s wrong to rape” or “it’s wrong to torture” cannot be anything more than statements of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, even if they are very strongly felt and believed; the onus is on the individual to recognize that their preference is just that – a personal preference (even if writ large to a social sensibility).
The question for so-called moral subjectivists is: outside of morality and ethics, would you feel comfortable forcing others to adhere to your personal preferences or your social sensibilities? Are you comfortable forcing people to not serve guacamole with halibut, or forcing them to not vote for Romney?

Now, are you comfortable intervening and forcing someone to stop raping or toturing another person?
This is the line where the obfuscating phrasing cannot go beyond, and it is where supporters of moral subjectivism cast their gaze away from the obvious distinction; even the moral subjectivist agrees that forcing personal preferences or social sensibilities upon others is itself immoral. They will fight against such things as a negative social sensibility against various minorities and certainly against individuals forcing their personal preferences on others.

Hypocritically, though, that’s all that morality is in their worldview; they are guilty of doing the very thing they deem immoral in the first place; in fact, their entire moral mechanism of forcing others to abide their personal preferences or social sensibilities is one they see as immoral everywhere else. They would force a freedom from religion, as if forcing religion on others was in principle different. They would force others to treat minorities equally, but enslaving them is using the exact same in-principle rationale.
Moral subjectivists want there to be some kind of distinction between “morality” and other personal preferences and social sensibilities to purchase a rationale for imposing their views on others, and will refer to moral views as “really strong” feelings; but, no matter how strong those feelings are, unless they posit morality as something else in principle than subjective feelings or social sensibilities, their behavior is the in-principle equivalent of any other moral view.

But, they certainly do not behave that way; they behave (like any moral objectivist) as if they have some authority and obligation beyond what can be accounted for by personal preference and social sensibility, no matter how strong such feelings are. There is an operational boundary between what one is willing to do for what one recognizes as matters of subjective personal taste and social sensibility, and what one is willing to do in cases where an objective, necessary and self-evident boundary is being crossed.
No amount of equivocation can hide the difference in how one behaves when it comes to serious moral matters and matters of personal preference/social sensibility.

Here ends WJM’s comment.

WJM’s interlocutor at this time was a buffoon who styles himself “hrun0815.” Said buffoon responded to the comment as follows:

“Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe.” I take it that “TL;DR” is internet shorthand for “too long; didn’t read.” If that is the case, hrun0815 has proven himself unworthy of being taken seriously on these pages, and I would encourage our readers and posters simply to ignore him.

Comments
Andre, It is getting rather tedious to discuss this subject with you. You seem to take some pride in your ignorance. However, since I am at heart a helpful person I will give you one link, to a chapter from one of the classical textbooks on behavioural ecology. As it happens, this chapter gives a number of examples of how natural selection works on animal behaviour. http://www.zoo.ox.ac.uk/group/west/pdf/Davies_etal_Chapter1.pdf The rest is up to you. fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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Graham2:
Mapou: You really are a worry.
I aim to please. :-DMapou
January 19, 2015
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faded_glory Nice backtrack lol...... You made the claim. I called your bluff now you make another claim.Andre
January 19, 2015
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faded glory said:
That might be what it is, but it doesn’t provide any insights as to what the tenets of this objective morality actually are. Is abortion moral? Homosexuality? White lies? Worshipping Allah? How can you tell?
You can tell by honestly exploring what your conscience tells you using reason and going forward by refining both your conscience and your ability to correctly apply logic. Like the exploration of any natural law commodity, developing a sound moral theory takes time and effort. "Tenets" would be interpretations of what the conscience senses in the best terms an individual can express.
The obvious problem is that not everybody agrees on what is moral and what is not.
I don't understand why you would consider this a "problem"; it's not a problem logically, nor is it a problem functionally as one goes about their moral business. Universal agreement is certainly not required for any practical functioning in the real world on any matter objective or subjective.
People will have different views from you on many subjects. This could be for three reasons: 1) they have it wrong; 2) you have it wrong; 3) both you and they have it wrong.
Yes, someone has it wrong. What's the problem? We cannot live as if everyone's morality is right, even those which contradict each other, which would be the case under subjective morality.William J Murray
January 19, 2015
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SB
If your standard is based on the reasons of the majority, as you stated earlier, then I am asking you how you decide what is morally wrong if there is a conflict in the majority perspectives presented at different times and places on the same moral problem.
The reasons shared by the majority that supported slavery changed when the reasons shared by the majority rejected it. How do you decide which set of reasons should prevail?
What happened to you earlier standard based on the reasons held by the majority.
I don’t know where you got this from. I tried to emphasis that my decision was not based on the what the majority thought. I have my own reasons. It it just so happens that the majority share most of them. I thought I said this three times in different ways.
At this point, I have to ask you all over again. On what do you base your moral judgement? You are not being at all clear about this.
You asked me what I meant by morally wrong. This is a different question from what asking on what do I base my moral judgement. Different people based their moral judgement on different things (although they have a lot in common). However, they all mean the same thing by morally right. To give an analogy. Different people find different things beautiful – but they all means the same thing by the word beautiful. To try and summarise very briefly. When I say something is morally wrong I am not describing the thing – I am expressing (not describing) my feelings about it and calling for it to be stopped. That is what it means. I have various reasons for doing this – suffering etc. These are the basis of my moral judgement.
The precepts of the natural moral law are not always clearly understood and immediately perceived. Much of it is contingent on a person’s disposition. While everyone grasps its principles in a primitive way, some may be so disposed that they would prefer not to grow in that knowledge. Others come to understand it gradually.
Still others may have been brainwashed, as in the case of a suicide bomber, and have lost much of their moral sense of right and wrong. A bad education can have the same effect. Still others are no longer open to the truth because they have become enslaved by a bad habit. Someone who is emotionally invested in financial greed, for example, may feel a sense of reproach when that vice is mentioned and will, as a result, feel a sense of reproach and be less likely to follow the light of reason.
These are reasons why people may fail to follow to understand or perceive  the NLM. It doesn’t affect my argument. You appear to agree that people mean the same thing as you when they say something is morally right. Yet some of these people may never have heard of the NLM. How can you mean something you have never heard of?  
I am not sure that I agree with that. A definition of a moral concept would not seem to be the same thing as a call to action. Can you elaborate?
I will try to – but really you need to read Hare.  Moral language is prescriptive, not descriptive. It is asking for/demanding action not just describing whether some thing happens to match some description. Imagine a race that had obtained a copy of the NML (possibly from you!) and noted down whether actions conformed to the NML, called such actions squiggly, but took no other notice of the results i.e. did not act on them in anyway. Would you say that “squiggly” meant “good”? I don’t think so. It just means conforming to the NML.
Mark Frank
January 19, 2015
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StephenB: Objective truth does not die or change. If it could change, it wouldn’t be true; if it could die, it wouldn’t be abstract. Truth, unlike matter, is not extended in time and space. As an abstract reality, it has no “location.” I am not sure why you suddenly use the word 'truth'. I thought we were discussing morality? Anyway, I have a real hard time understanding how something can exist without having a location (although I do realise that QM tells us that there is some fuzziness around this). I believe that abstract ideas exist in the human brain when they think about them. They can also be represented in physical media such as books and computers, but to become actual, someone needs to think about them. Without human thought there are no abstract entities, in my view. This concept is simple, clear, and agrees with our empirical observations. It avoids the incomprehensible notion that something can exist without 'being anywhere'. fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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Box: The moral subjectivists in this thread tend to mention shared values. Relevant or not, somehow they feel that it supports the case for subjective morality. Quite the opposite is true: when something is deemed wrong by a vast majority of people it may very well be indicative of a ‘brick wall’ – IOW the existence of an objective moral landscape. For clarity, I am not a great fan of the 'morality by majority' argument. I believe that someone's moral compass is deeply personal and an integral part of the person they are, and should not just depend of the environment they live in (although this environment will in reality have had a large influence during the development of one's morals). Sure, if a particular moral view held by a great many people conflicts with your own, this could be a flag that you need to re-think this particular issue. However, in and by itself it should not be the deciding factor to change your views. Moral concepts need to stand up to scrutiny on their own, regardless of who else shares them. In my opinion, that is. fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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William J. Murray: I have stated repeatedly what it would be, theoretically, if it exists; a universal mental/spiritual landscape (so to speak) that can be sensed by the conscience and best interpreted and understood by applying reason to that sensory input. That might be what it is, but it doesn't provide any insights as to what the tenets of this objective morality actually are. Is abortion moral? Homosexuality? White lies? Worshipping Allah? How can you tell? So, under my theory, all non-sociopaths are in touch with (or can be) and experience (or can experience) objective morality through their conscience, and can refine that sense or ignore it, and with logic can interpret that input to the degree they have developed their reason. The obvious problem is that not everybody agrees on what is moral and what is not. People will have different views from you on many subjects. This could be for three reasons: 1) they have it wrong; 2) you have it wrong; 3) both you and they have it wrong. How do you solve this conundrum? I suspect that all you can do is decide that you have a more refined sense than them, therefore you are right and they are wrong. Am I correct? If so, you are making yourself the measure of all things moral. How is this any different from subjective morality? fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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Andre, The 7.5 million hits are not an argument that evolution of behaviours is true and I did not make that argument. I suggested that you take the time to read up a bit on the subject, using some of those links, because your categorical statement that natural selection is incapable to work on behaviours is so far off the mark that you would do well to educate yourself a bit more on the subject before giving your opinions. I am not going to do that here is the space of a few forum posts. You can continue in your misconceptions or you can learn - up to you. fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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Mark Frank
There is no need or sense in me making this decision.
If your standard is based on the reasons of the majority, as you stated earlier, then I am asking you how you decide what is morally wrong if there is a conflict in the majority perspectives presented at different times and places on the same moral problem.
I judge something to be wrong and deserving of punishment based on reasons that happen to be shared by the majority of people. That doesn’t mean I make that judgement because they are shared by the majority of people.
The reasons shared by the majority that supported slavery changed when the reasons shared by the majority rejected it. How do you decide which set of reasons should prevail?
I don’t make my judgement that an action is wrong on the basis of what other people think, so the time and location of those people is irrelevant.
What happened to you earlier standard based on the reasons held by the majority. You appear to be contradicting yourself about your standard for making moral decisions. I thought we had that issue settled. Now you are reversing course. At this point, I have to ask you all over again. On what do you base your moral judgement? You are not being at all clear about this.
I have (at least) two problems with this. [The Natural Moral Law]
OK, we can discuss it.
1. There are people all around you – atheists and theists – who regularly talk about what is right and wrong and may not even have heard of the NML and will believe things to be right that do not conform to it.
They [may] mean the same as you (i.e. conforms to NML) and when they say homosexuality is morally right they mean that it conforms to a code they have never heard of! While it may or may not in fact conform to that code – to actually mean that something conforms to a certain code without knowing it is absurd.
The precepts of the natural moral law are not always clearly understood and immediately perceived. Much of it is contingent on a person’s disposition. While everyone grasps its principles in a primitive way, some may be so disposed that they would prefer not to grow in that knowledge. Others come to understand it gradually. Still others may have been brainwashed, as in the case of a suicide bomber, and have lost much of their moral sense of right and wrong. A bad education can have the same effect. Still others are no longer open to the truth because they have become enslaved by a bad habit. Someone who is emotionally invested in financial greed, for example, may feel a sense of reproach when that vice is mentioned and will, as a result, feel a sense of reproach and be less likely to follow the light of reason.
2. It is part of the logic of moral language that it doesn’t just describe but is also a call to action. If someone said “that’s morally very wrong – but I don’t see that’s a reason for doing anything to prevent it” you would have to say they don’t understand the meaning of “morally wrong”.
Good point. Yes. One cannot be totally passive and neutral about the adverse consequences of immoral behavior and still remain moral.
However, it is logically quite sensible to say – that breaks the NML but I don’t see that’s a reason doing anything to prevent it (e.g. because I don’t believe in God).” Any definition of moral words that leaves out the prescriptive element has failed to capture the full meaning.
I am not sure that I agree with that. A definition of a moral concept would not seem to be the same thing as a call to action. Can you elaborate?StephenB
January 19, 2015
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faded_glory There are 46 100 000 hits for astrology, is it true? There is a 148 000 000 hits for bigfoot, is it true? There are 85 000 000 hits for UFO's, is it true? There are 12 800 000 hits for the pink unicorn, is it true? There are 1 200 000 000 hits for God, is it true? By your breath-taking logic and your amazing reason, God must be true, how can one argue with 1 200 000 000 hits on Google?Andre
January 19, 2015
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#234 Box
The moral subjectivists in this thread tend to mention shared values. Relevant or not, somehow they feel that it supports the case for subjective morality.
Well I don't think it is relevant. The point I was making was that while I may happen to share my values with a lot of people that is not why I hold them.Mark Frank
January 19, 2015
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MF: I judge something to be wrong and deserving of punishment based on reasons that happen to be shared by the majority of people.
The moral subjectivists in this thread tend to mention shared values. Relevant or not, somehow they feel that it supports the case for subjective morality. Quite the opposite is true: when something is deemed wrong by a vast majority of people it may very well be indicative of a 'brick wall' - IOW the existence of an objective moral landscape.Box
January 19, 2015
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SB
Well, we know that these things change from to time to time and from place to place. A good example would be public perceptions about the morality of homosexuality and slavery. How do you determine which time and which place is morally correct?
There is no need or sense in me making this decision.  I wrote: I judge something to be wrong and deserving of punishment based on reasons that happen to be shared by the majority of people. That doesn’t mean I make that judgement because they are shared by the majority of people. I don’t make my judgement that an action is wrong on the basis of what other people think, so the time and location of those people is irrelevant. It so happens that my judgement often coincides with the judgement of my contemporaries which means that they can reasonably infer a bit about what did cause me to make me judgement because it is very likely the same factors would lead them to judge it wrong.  
To commit a morally wrong act means to do something inconsistent with the moral laws that govern human behavior. It is to do something that is inconsistent with what is proper for a thinking human being endowed with free will and capable of loving. Any act that violates the law of love is an immoral act.
I have (at least) two problems with this. 1. There are people all around you - atheists and theists - who regularly talk about what is right and wrong and may not even have heard of the NML and will believe things to be right that do not conform to it. You seem to have two options: Either They mean something different by "morally right and wrong" from what you do. In which case your only dispute with an atheist who thinks abortion is morally right is a semantic one about the correct use of the word "right". He is talking about something completely different from you when he says it is right and why should that bother you. Or They mean the same as you (i.e. conforms to NML) and when they say homosexuality is morally right they mean that it conforms to a code they have never heard of! While it may or may not in fact conform to that code - to actually mean that something conforms to a certain code without knowing it is absurd. 2. It is part of the logic of moral language that it doesn’t just describe but is also a call to action. If someone said “that’s morally very wrong – but I don’t see that’s a reason for doing anything to prevent it” you would have to say they don’t understand the meaning of "morally wrong". However, it is logically quite sensible to say – that breaks the NML but I don’t see that’s a reason doing anything to prevent it  (e.g. because I don’t believe in God).” Any definition of moral words that leaves out the prescriptive element has failed to capture the full meaning.Mark Frank
January 19, 2015
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faded_glory responds to Andre:
Andre, if you were to Google ‘natural selection of behaviour’, you would get 7,480,000 hits. Why don’t you spend a bit of time going through some of that material? It might prevent you participating in discussions where you don’t know what you are talking about.
faded_glory, what percentage of those google hits contain information that supports the idea that natural selection can affect behavior, and what percentage of them contain information that contradicts that theory? Both sides of that argument would be included in a google search using the phrase "natural selection of behaviour". Instead of using a google search as if the hits all represent support for your position, why not provide what Andre has asked for to make it clear you actually have support for your assertion?William J Murray
January 19, 2015
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Mark Frank
I judge something to be wrong and deserving of punishment based on reasons that happen to be shared by the majority of people.
Well, we know that these things change from to time to time and from place to place. A good example would be public perceptions about the morality of homosexuality and slavery. How do you determine which time and which place is morally correct?
Can tell me what you mean by “morally wrong”?
Yes, an immoral act would be anything that violates the law of love, anything that violates the moral standards derived through reason from the Natural Moral Law, or as set forth in The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount.
Based on your earlier comment I think you will reply something like “off-target”
Correct.
If so then maybe you could explain whether the particular target is part of the meaning i.e. does “morally wrong” mean “failed to conform to NML” or does it mean “failed to meet a moral code of some kind”.
Yes. To commit a morally wrong act means to do something inconsistent with the moral laws that govern human behavior. It is to do something that is inconsistent with what is proper for a thinking human being endowed with free will and capable of loving. Any act that violates the law of love is an immoral act.StephenB
January 19, 2015
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Andre: Natural selection can act on behaviour? Really you have actual empirical evidence that nothing can act on something? Please provide this proof! Andre, if you were to Google 'natural selection of behaviour', you would get 7,480,000 hits. Why don't you spend a bit of time going through some of that material? It might prevent you participating in discussions where you don't know what you are talking about. fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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Box said:
An important argument in favor of the existence of a real moral landscape – objective morality – is the presence of brick walls: we all have to agree that certain behavior is wrong. We have no choice in the matter, we are all subordinate to a higher law – excluding psychopaths. IOW we are all forced to agree on certain moral issues.
Exactly, which is where the "gratuitous child torture" example comes in. The existence of self-evidently true moral statements that reflect what no sane human being can accommodate as "good" may not prove that morality refers to an objective source, but self-evident moral truths must be accounted for in one's theoretical moral model. The problem with the evolutionary model, such as the theory that all humans share a genetic expression that puts that moral brick wall in our brain (and perhaps sociopaths lack that particular trait), is the same problem that plagues subjective morality: operational morality is reduced to personal feelings (even if those feelings are generated by genetics). IOW, if morality = genetically expressed feelings, then everyone's morality is valid - even the sociopath's.William J Murray
January 19, 2015
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Me--Think
I see no consensus even on what is Natural law [natural moral law
The NML is simply the law of morality proper to human nature.
How can something which itself is subjective give raise to something objective?
What objective thing do you perceive as giving rise to some objective thing?StephenB
January 19, 2015
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faded_glory Natural selection can act on behaviour? Really you have actual empirical evidence that nothing can act on something? Please provide this proof!Andre
January 19, 2015
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faded_glory said:
With this statement, you have completely undermined your position.
I haven't undermined my actual position, although I may have undermined a position you mistakenly believe I'm arguing for.
If you don’t know if objective morality even exists, you cannot possibly know what it would be if it does exists.
It's analogous to scientific theory that proposes an X commodity to explain observable phenomena. You don't know that X actually exists, but you can glean a theoretical understanding of what X must be like in order to account for the observable phenomena. In the case of an objective basis for morality, it is proposed to account for experiential phenomena - our conscience, how we act and live (and must live) wrt moral rights and obligations, the similarities of moral interpretation by those we commonly agree have highly refined sense of conscience and capacity for reason - and to solve the fatal logical flaws that any theory of subjective morality ultimately falls prey to.
What you are actually doing is sticking the label ‘objective’ to your moral values so that you can avoid having to face the fact that they are just as subjective as everyone else’s.
The reason I have chosen to operate under the theoretical framework that morality refers to an objective source is because it is the only logically-consistent option that successfully explains how I - and every other non-sociopath in the world - actually live wrt moral behavior. I prefer my theoretical existential models to actually be rationally consistent and in agreement with factual experience.
If you don’t know what it would be, you cannot live by it.
I have stated repeatedly what it would be, theoretically, if it exists; a universal mental/spiritual landscape (so to speak) that can be sensed by the conscience and best interpreted and understood by applying reason to that sensory input. To fulfill the requirements necessary to solve what the proposed commodity needs to solve (existential and logical problems that subjective morality cannot explain), this commodity must be an absolute and unchanging universal mental landscape of "the good", much like whatever causes gravity is posited as a universal and unchanging (wrt its effects) force that can be utilized to better navigate our physical existence if we commit to understanding it as best we can. So, under my theory, all non-sociopaths are in touch with (or can be) and experience (or can experience) objective morality through their conscience, and can refine that sense or ignore it, and with logic can interpret that input to the degree they have developed their reason. Because we have free will (again, theoretically), we are free to damage or refine or ignore our conscience; we are free to believe it is a purely subjective phenomena. We are free to choose in contradiction to our conscience. However, under my moral theory, conflicting with the moral good carries with it negative necessary consequences, just as acting in conflict with gravity carries necessary negative consequences. Not because any god chooses to punish you, but simply because that is the cause and effect product of immoral behavior. If god exists, god cannot any more save you from those consequences than god can make an evil thing good. Under my natural law moral theory, that is. I'm not speaking for anyone else's views. I've constructed all my existential models to be rationally consistent and reflect the factual, empirical experience of my life. Whether or not they are true isn't of concern to me because I have no way of knowing; I may be a disembodied head in a vat suffering from delusions. What concerns me is whether or not my existential models appear to work in my experience (whatever that "really" is) wrt my capacity to (1) live as a good person who (2) enjoys life as much as possible (while maintaining #1).William J Murray
January 19, 2015
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Andre, I don't know why you find it so hard to answer a simple question? Do you think natural selection can act on behaviours, or not? Certainly I consider behaviours immaterial. Behaviours are processes and are not 'material things'. I have often noticed a proclivity on this site to classify everything as either material or immaterial 'things'. What seems to be missing is the acknowledgement that an awful lot of 'immaterial things' are actually processes involving material entities. Specifically, I view morality as a process in the brains of people - a process where a person witnesses or contemplates an action, forms a judgement and may trigger a reaction. Material vs immaterial has nothing to do with this discussion. fGfaded_Glory
January 19, 2015
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SB #223
Thank you for explaining what you mean by a morally wrong act. In your judgment, then, a person should be punished for committing an act (of a serious and consequential nature) that you and most other people would find distasteful and would likely try to prevent. I take this to mean that it is wrong if the majority finds it to be so for all of the other reasons stated, i.e. suffering, injustice, context, etc. So, the key ingredient here is opinions and convictions of the majority. Is that a fair assessment?
No. I judge something to be wrong and deserving of punishment based on reasons that happen to be shared by the majority of people. That doesn’t mean I make that judgement because they are shared by the majority of people. However, the fact that they are shared means that my statement “X is wrong” implies (but does not entail) that X share features such as suffering that others would also judge to be wrong. Could I return to the questions I asked you (simplified): Can tell me what you mean by “morally wrong”? (Please don’t confuse this with your reasons for thinking something is morally wrong). Based on your earlier comment I think you will reply something like “off-target”. If so then maybe you could explain whether the particular target is part of the meaning i.e. does “morally wrong” mean “failed to conform to NML” or does it mean “failed to meet a moral code of some kind”. Mark Frank
January 19, 2015
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Mark Frank
When I say something is morally wrong I am performing a speech act (see Wittgenstein, JL Austen, Searle, R.M. Hare) which does these things:
1. Expresses a specific kind of antipathy to X (I can enlarge on this if you like)
2. Commits to trying to prevent X other things being equal 3. Because most people have the kind of antipathy mentioned in 1 for similar reasons it also implies that some subset of those reasons are present e.g. suffering, injustice, cowardice, failure to meet committments – although the exact subset will vary according to context 4. It may also express a conviction that others can be brought to share this opinion with sufficient time
Thank you for explaining what you mean by a morally wrong act. In your judgment, then, a person should be punished for committing an act (of a serious and consequential nature) that you and most other people would find distasteful and would likely try to prevent. I take this to mean that it is wrong if the majority finds it to be so for all of the other reasons stated, i.e. suffering, injustice, context, etc. So, the key ingredient here is opinions and convictions of the majority. Is that a fair assessment?StephenB
January 19, 2015
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faded_glory
For the third time I will ask you: do you think that natural selection can’t act on behaviours? Or do you think that behaviours are material?
Morality, like reason and logic are not material........ Natural selection is unable to act on the immaterial, it only has power over material things. Are you acknowledging the immaterial faded_glory? Careful now.......Andre
January 19, 2015
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StephenB @ 217 I see no consensus even on what is Natural law [natural moral law -Thanks MF] is. How can something which itself is subjective give raise to something objective? From your own Link:
Aristotle (384–322 bce) held that what was “just by nature” was not always the same as what was “just by law,”However, he drew his examples of natural law primarily from his observation of the Greeks in their city-states, who subordinated women to men, slaves to citizens, and “barbarians” to Hellenes. Stoics conceived of an entirely egalitarian law of nature in conformity with the logos (reason) inherent in the human mind. Roman jurists paid lip service to this notion, which was reflected in the writings of St. Paul In the 12th century, Gratian, an Italian monk and father of the study of canon law, equated natural law with divine law According to St. Thomas Aquinas (c. 1224/25–1274) The law of nature, is “nothing else than the participation of the eternal law in the rational creature,” Other scholastic thinkers, including the Franciscan philosophers John Duns Scotus (1266–1308) and William of Ockham (c. 1285–1347/49) and the Spanish theologian Francisco Suárez (1548–1617), emphasized divine will instead of divine reason as the source of law
Me_Think
January 19, 2015
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MF I don't compare it to anything, as I've said my morality does not consider the well beings of others, yours does.....Andre
January 19, 2015
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Sb #217 Am I missing something? You seem to have given a definition of natural moral law not of morality. Like Me-Think. I would be intrigued to see where morality is defined as a primordial set of rules.Mark Frank
January 19, 2015
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Also, from your own reference, the Stanford Encyclopedia, which acknowledges Aquinas as the primary source for the natural moral law: "The precepts of the natural law are binding by nature: no beings could share our human nature yet fail to be bound by the precepts of the natural law. This is so because these precepts direct us toward the good as such and various particular goods (ST IaIIae 94, 2). The good and goods provide reasons for us rational beings to act, to pursue the good and these particular goods. As good is what is perfective of us given the natures that we have (ST Ia 5, 1), the good and these various goods have their status as such naturally. It is sufficient for certain things to be good that we have the natures that we have; it is in virtue of our common human nature that the good for us is what it is. The precepts of the natural law are also knowable by nature. All human beings possess a basic knowledge of the principles of the natural law (ST IaIIae 94, 4). This knowledge is exhibited in our intrinsic directedness toward the various goods that the natural law enjoins us to pursue, and we can make this implicit awareness explicit and propositional through reflection on practice. Aquinas takes it that there is a core of practical knowledge that all human beings have, even if the implications of that knowledge can be hard to work out or the efficacy of that knowledge can be thwarted by strong emotion or evil dispositions (ST IaIIae 94, 6)."StephenB
January 19, 2015
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Me--Think
That is your subjective interpretation :-) No where is ‘Morality’ defined as a primordial set of rules.
It is not my subjective interpretation. It is common knowledge: Encyclopedia Britannica "Natural law, in philosophy, a system of right or justice held to be common to all humans and derived from nature rather than from the rules of society, or positive law."StephenB
January 19, 2015
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