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WJM on Subjectivist Equivocations

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The following is from William J. Murray:

The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”. That phrasing obfuscates what the subjectivist must mean as opposed to what an objectivist means when they say the same thing.

Normally, especially in a debate like this, one would use terms and phrasings that distinguish between personal preference and an implied reference to an objective ruling/measurement. In regular conversation, there would be a situational understanding, like: “No, that’s the wrong color shoes to go with your outfit.” where the term “wrong” would be understood as a strong expression of personal aesthetics.
Usually, the line is drawn more distinctly: “It’s not the right choice for me, but it might be for you.” In a debate about morality, leaving off the qualifying terminology undermines the clarity of the argument and the capacity to recognize logical errors.
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.

When it comes to moral subjectivists, “it’s wrong to rape” or “it’s wrong to torture” cannot be anything more than statements of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, even if they are very strongly felt and believed; the onus is on the individual to recognize that their preference is just that – a personal preference (even if writ large to a social sensibility).
The question for so-called moral subjectivists is: outside of morality and ethics, would you feel comfortable forcing others to adhere to your personal preferences or your social sensibilities? Are you comfortable forcing people to not serve guacamole with halibut, or forcing them to not vote for Romney?

Now, are you comfortable intervening and forcing someone to stop raping or toturing another person?
This is the line where the obfuscating phrasing cannot go beyond, and it is where supporters of moral subjectivism cast their gaze away from the obvious distinction; even the moral subjectivist agrees that forcing personal preferences or social sensibilities upon others is itself immoral. They will fight against such things as a negative social sensibility against various minorities and certainly against individuals forcing their personal preferences on others.

Hypocritically, though, that’s all that morality is in their worldview; they are guilty of doing the very thing they deem immoral in the first place; in fact, their entire moral mechanism of forcing others to abide their personal preferences or social sensibilities is one they see as immoral everywhere else. They would force a freedom from religion, as if forcing religion on others was in principle different. They would force others to treat minorities equally, but enslaving them is using the exact same in-principle rationale.
Moral subjectivists want there to be some kind of distinction between “morality” and other personal preferences and social sensibilities to purchase a rationale for imposing their views on others, and will refer to moral views as “really strong” feelings; but, no matter how strong those feelings are, unless they posit morality as something else in principle than subjective feelings or social sensibilities, their behavior is the in-principle equivalent of any other moral view.

But, they certainly do not behave that way; they behave (like any moral objectivist) as if they have some authority and obligation beyond what can be accounted for by personal preference and social sensibility, no matter how strong such feelings are. There is an operational boundary between what one is willing to do for what one recognizes as matters of subjective personal taste and social sensibility, and what one is willing to do in cases where an objective, necessary and self-evident boundary is being crossed.
No amount of equivocation can hide the difference in how one behaves when it comes to serious moral matters and matters of personal preference/social sensibility.

Here ends WJM’s comment.

WJM’s interlocutor at this time was a buffoon who styles himself “hrun0815.” Said buffoon responded to the comment as follows:

“Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe.” I take it that “TL;DR” is internet shorthand for “too long; didn’t read.” If that is the case, hrun0815 has proven himself unworthy of being taken seriously on these pages, and I would encourage our readers and posters simply to ignore him.

Comments
Graham2 @ 185 "object morality is built in … not at all. The built-in morality we each have is our own, not a universal (objective) standard. I presume it is different for each of us." Confusing, The built-in basic morality is in a gene, we have all inherited that same gene, yet it's not a universal, objective standard?Cross
January 18, 2015
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object morality is built in ... not at all. The built-in morality we each have is our own, not a universal (objective) standard. I presume it is different for each of us.Graham2
January 18, 2015
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Graham2 @ 182 "(a) Objective morality & god seem to be descriptions of the same thing." Perhaps they are, in the sense that we are created in the image of God and thus inherit His morality? "(b) Neither is supported by evidence, but there is actually evidence for the absence of objective morality." In 179 you said" Morality is something we make up as we go along. I qualify this because basic morality is built in (genetic)" Aren't you then arguing that an object morality is built in, just that it's source is genetic ie it's in the genes.Cross
January 18, 2015
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Cross: 2 reasons: (a) Objective morality & god seem to be descriptions of the same thing. (b) Neither is supported by evidence, but there is actually evidence for the absence of objective morality.Graham2
January 18, 2015
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Graham2 @ 181 "BTW, your hero W Lane Craig uses the existence of objective morality as an argument for the existence of god." It's a pretty good argument, where do you disagree and why?Cross
January 18, 2015
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WJM: I will fess up. I didn't read your post with the care it merited. Now, having read it properly, Im more confused than ever. What does this sentence mean ... We must live as if objective morality exists. Sorry, that's meaningless. BTW, your hero W Lane Craig uses the existence of objective morality as an argument for the existence of god.Graham2
January 18, 2015
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Murray:
I’m serious. The debate is about the logical consequences stemming from two disparate premises (subjective vs objective morality), not about whether or not objective morality actually exists.
Logical consequences are irrelevant to any theory of social behavior. What counts are the empirical consequences. When you have evidence to support the hypothesis that the empirical consequences of belief in objective morality trump the empirical consequences of belief in subjective morality, let the world know. In passing, you might provide criteria for evaluating the empirical consequences of either belief. How do you score "better" behavior?Daniel King
January 18, 2015
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WJM: You & BA should hop into bed together. No, objective morality doesn't exist. That's what the heathens have been trying to tell you all along. Morality is something we make up as we go along. I qualify this because basic morality is built in (genetic), and we elaborate on that. Monkeys display a basic morality (though they don't have to fuss over gay marriage). They inherit it in their genes. We could never function as a social species if we didn't inherit some basic rules. Ditto all other social species. Your 'objective morality' is a religious construct. If there really was some objective standard, then (a) Whats the evidence for it ? (b) Why on earth wouldn't we be using it ? Why do we have endless,endless,endless arguments about all the moral issues of the day ?Graham2
January 18, 2015
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Graham2 asks:
Are you serious ? or just winding me up ?
I'm serious. The debate is about the logical consequences stemming from two disparate premises (subjective vs objective morality), not about whether or not objective morality actually exists. We live, and must live, as if morality refers to an objective (existent in itself) commodity. No one except sociopaths can actually live as if morality is a subjective commodity. (So-called subjective moralists utilize equivocations, misdirections and obfuscation to deny this, consciously or not.) But, that doesn't mean that objective morality actually exists; it just means that, logically and practically speaking, we must live as if it actually exists.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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SB: You have stated that rape is “wrong.” Please define the word, “wrong” as you are using it. Mark Frank
That sounds like you are prepared to discuss the meaning of moral language such the moral use of “wrong” after all.
No, I am simply asking you to define your terms. When you say that rapists should be punished because rape "is wrong," I know that you are misusing words because I know that you don't believe any such thing as right or wrong exists. I am, therefore, asking you what you mean when you use the word "wrong."
It is complicated and subtle subject. Luckily I wrote myself a bit of an essay on the subject a few years ago. I more or less stick by what it is in it.
It isn't complicated and subtle at all. You either know what you mean or you don't.StephenB
January 18, 2015
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WJM: Whether or not objective moral standards actually exist is entirely irrelevant to the argument Are you serious ? or just winding me up ?Graham2
January 18, 2015
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The red herrings of "majority", "consensus", and "social benefit" can be seen clearly for what they are when one asks a self-styled "moral subjectivist" if they are willing to adopt "majority", "consensus", or "social benefit" moral rules they strongly disagree with simply because the majority, consensus, or advocates of social benefit considers a proposition moral (or immoral). The answer is "no". Their personal view (under subjectivism) takes precedence over all other considerations. They will not bend their moral views simply to acquiesce to some majority or external authority (working for social benefit) when they disagreement is strong enough. What they are left with is, as a moral authority and justification, simply "because I feel like it". Nothing more. Nothing less. Everything else is just equivocation and obfuscation.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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SB #162 I will resist the temptation to respond to everything you have written. You finish:
You have stated that rape is “wrong.” Please define the word, “wrong” as you are using it.
That sounds like you are prepared to discuss the meaning of moral language such the moral use of “wrong” after all. It is complicated and subtle subject. Luckily I wrote myself a bit of an essay on the subject a few years ago. I more or less stick by what it is in it.Mark Frank
January 18, 2015
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Seversky said:
I’m not sure what you mean by an “objectively valid moral principle”.
I mean, the moral principle is true whether anyone agrees with it or not.
I think if you asked a large group of people if they preferred to be harmed or not harmed, the overwhelming majority would opt for not being harmed.
I imagine virtually everyone would opt for not being harmed. Not near as many would opt for not harming others.
I would not call that an objective moral principle. It is, rather, a consensus of subjective preferences but I think it is the closest you are ever going to get to an objective morality.
I agree to calling it a consensus of moral preferences. However, I'm sure you'll agree that a consensus of moral preferences can include all sorts of things, and historically has included all sorts of things, and currently includes all sorts of things that you and I will agree are immoral. Referring to such a consensus, then, offers nothing of consequence to the subjectivist position - yet, they keep referring to it as if it was significant in some way. WJM said:
Choosing “majority” over “minority” adds no extra authority in a morality where moral authority is derived from subjective, personal preference.
Seversky responded:
Actually, I would say that it does. Just as, in as democracy, a govenment is presumed to derive its legitimacy and authority from the support of a majority of the electorate, so the moral principles, that guide the behavior of members of a society towards one another, derive their authority from being the consensus of their individual subjective preferences.
If you are willing to alter your personal moral preferences to align with the consensus, then you could say that an appeal to "the majority" lends greater moral authority, but we both know that is not the case. What carries the sole authority under moral subjectivism is personal preference. Consensus and majority will be abandoned and worked against if it conflicts significantly with the individual's moral preference. Andre said:
Who says it’s a right not to be raped, robbed or murdered?
Seversky responds:
All the people who’d prefer not to be raped, robbed, or murdered? Which would probably be just about everyone.
You are mistaking the desire to not be raped, robbed or murdered with the view that it is ones right not to be raped, robbed or murdered. Certainly, even rapists, roberers and murderers desire not to be raped, robbed and murdered, but they don't seem to thinnk that it is a right not to be raped, robbed or murdered.
Doesn’t a majority opinion count for something? Actually, in the absence of any kind of objective morality doesn’t a majority opinion count for everything, given that there is nothing else?
It might count for everything if moral subjectivists committed themselves to aligning their moral views with the majority/consensus, but do they? Would you? An appeal to majority or consensus as moral authority means nothing unless you are willing to bend your personal morality into agreement. So, if majority "is everything" when it comes to moral authority, if the majority considers homosexuality immoral, or slavery moral, I suppose you're "all in" with that. I think not.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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Graham2 said:
The entire discussion hinges on whether or not an objective moral standard exists.
Then you do not understand the debate at all. Whether or not objective moral standards actually exist is entirely irrelevant to the argument.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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AS said:
But I’m not citing it [the U.N. Document - WJM] as a “moral authority”. I’m citing it as an example of widespread consensus. And I agree with the document because it makes sense. If it sanctioned rape, neither I nor, I suspect, the vast majority of civilized people, would accept it.
In the above, AS refers to consensus and "the vast majority" as if those references provided subjective moral systems with some sort of binding authority. The UN document he linked to explicitly states how individuals "must" be treated and what they have inalienable "rights" to. His moral principle, then, seems to stem from moral consensus and the vast majority; otherwise, why mention them when attempting to support one's moral views? Later, after I challenged AS about a majority that held homosexuality immoral, AS said:
The word immoral doesn’t seem necessary here. Considered immoral by whom?
By the consensus of those in the country, of course.
I see no reason to prevent same-sex couples entering into legally supported unions and I see no justification for a legally sanctioned discrimination based on sex.
You provided the justification when you referred to consensus or "the vast majority" as if they supported your subjectivist morality. If consensus or majority grants validity to a moral position (as your statements directly imply, or else why invoke them when defending your views?), then if the consensus considers homosexuality immoral, one would think that a moral subjectivism validated by consensus would then agree that homosexuality is immoral.
I’d be unhappy if I found myself in a country where such laws held sway and I’d do what I could to persuade people to change. But we have to live somewhere today and can work for change tomorrow.
Why would you be unhappy? If morality is determined/validated by consensus, why would such a moral position make you unhappy? By what moral authority would you work to change the view of the consensus? The point being: under moral subjectivism such as yours, appeals to "the vast majority" or "consensus" are red herrings, because you will abandon "the vast majority" and "consensus" as soon as your own moral views diverge sufficiently from them. Similarly, appeals to "benefit of society" as the basis of one's morals will be abandoned as soon as those in power decide that a "benefit" is something you strongly disagree with. Ultimately, subjective morality boils down to personal preference, and such things as "benefit to society", "consensus" and "the majority" are abandoned as soon as the individual disagrees with them.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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Andre @ 153
Is wide spread consensus not exactly like might makes right? Until the 17th century the consensus was that the sun revolved around the earth. As late as the 20th century the consensus was that and to degree still is if you believe in evolution that an African is just above a Gorilla.
Claims about 'what is' can be true or false. They can be compared to what we actually observe to see how accurately they describe it. The claim that the Sun goes around the Earth can be tested by observation. It is capable of being true or false. Initially, as you say, the consensus was that the Sun went around the Earth. That was how it looked at first glance. Later observations and calculations showed that the Earth orbits the Sun and that is now the consensus. On matters of fact a consensus might be true or false. The ultimate arbiter is objective reality itself
Consensus morality does not mean it true.
Or false. Moral claims are neither. They are not about the nature of objective reality - 'what is' - they are prescriptive claims about how human beings ought to behave towards one another.
I can justify why rape and murder is moral 1. If I kill you, you can no longer have offspring thus I’m guaranteeing my reproductive success. 2. If I rape as many woman as I want I increase my reproductive fitness. 3. My moral code is about survival, therefore my actions are moral.
All you have done here is commit the naturalistic fallacy three times. Your priority might well be your survival. Killing off all potential rivals might well improve your chances of reproductive success. Raping as many women as possible might well increase your reproductive fitness. So what? None of that tells us anything about why you ought to be so privileged, why your reproductive success should matter to anyone but you. More likely, given the high price others would pay, the response from potential victims, their families, their friends and most of the rest of society would be to tell you what you could go do with your reproductive fitness. Why should that opinion count for any less than yours?Seversky
January 18, 2015
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Graham4 #167 "So, could one of the believers just give us their best evidence for the existence of an objective moral standard." The "objective moral standard" is based on the metaphysical fact that we are all One in God. This Union forces us to be good, friendly and just. When we are invited to an important party we clean ourselves, wear our best dress and behave politely. To greater reason if we are invited to the party of our Union with God we all must be at our best. This is the "objective moral standard" based on the Unity of metaphysics.niwrad
January 18, 2015
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Andre @ 146
Who says it’s a right not to be raped, robbed or murdered?
All the people who'd prefer not to be raped, robbed, or murdered? Which would probably be just about everyone. Doesn't a majority opinion count for something? Actually, in the absence of any kind of objective morality doesn't a majority opinion count for everything, given that there is nothing else?Seversky
January 18, 2015
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The entire discussion hinges on whether or not an objective moral standard exists. Thats it. Thats what the whole fuss is about. So, could one of the believers just give us their best evidence for the existence of an objective moral standard. Put us all out of our misery.Graham2
January 18, 2015
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William J Murray @ 101
The moral authority to harm others or to act to prevent harm from coming to others is the same – subjective preference. Choosing “not harming others” rather than “harming others” doesn’t give you any extra authority unless “not harming others” is considered an objectively valid moral principle – meaning, it necessarily applies to everyone whether they agree to it or not.
I'm not sure what you mean by an "objectively valid moral principle". I think if you asked a large group of people if they preferred to be harmed or not harmed, the overwhelming majority would opt for not being harmed. I would not call that an objective moral principle. It is, rather, a consensus of subjective preferences but I think it is the closest you are ever going to get to an objective morality.
Choosing “majority” over “minority” adds no extra authority in a morality where moral authority is derived from subjective, personal preference.
Actually, I would say that it does. Just as, in as democracy, a govenment is presumed to derive its legitimacy and authority from the support of a majority of the electorate, so the moral principles, that guide the behavior of members of a society towards one another, derive their authority from being the consensus of their individual subjective preferences.
Under moral subjectivism, there is no meaningful way to “weigh” one moral maxim against another; they are all equally valid.
The absence of any objective standard against which to measure or "weigh" moral maxims does not necessarily mean they are all of equal value, that we have no way to discriminate between them. If there are no objective moral standards, as I hold, we can still resort to the only means of judging open to us, what you call "subjective preference" and seek a consensus thereof.Seversky
January 18, 2015
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AS said:
What do you think of the actual content of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
AS said:
I see you have answered already!
WJM said: Subjective morals are personal preferences, no matter how strongly felt; as such, they simply cannot be “wrong”, and certainly cannot be meaningfully judged “wrong” by any third party.
What does the document you linked to have to do with moral subjectivism?William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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Aurelio Smith said:
But it doesn’t.
Philosophers and scientists use hypotheticals to test out their premises, inferences and conclusions - that way they can examine their views from a variety of "what if" scenarios to see how they hold up.
Well, I’m having a hard time imagining this scenario. Do you think this is a likely scenario? If not, why should I worry. It is not going to arise.
The purpose of the hypothetical scenario is to test whether your appeal to consensus holds up. If you prefer a real-world scenario, let's try this one out: if the consensus of the country you live in denies gay marriage or equal rights to women because such things were considered immoral, would you agree with the consensus that gay marriage or equal women's rights was immoral?
What do you think of the actual content of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Well it starts out great, but at about #22 it devolved into progressivist fantasy.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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Mark Frank
I suppose when you have run out of arguments then quoting Lewis Carroll is an alternative.
I haven't run out of arguments at all, I just wanted you to know that your proclivity to misuse words is a classic problem. The story of Alice in Wonderland clearly applies to you, inasmuch as you think words mean whatever you want them to mean. It doesn't work that way.
The thread is about whether morality is objective or subjective.
No, sorry. When all else fails, read the title of the thread. It is about "subjectivist "equivocations," and, by extension, your subjectivist equivocations.
However, SB insists that anyone who does not use moral language objectively is misusing the word. He challenges me to look up the meaning of wrong to confirm this.
No, SB insists that words mean things. Whenever someone misuses a word in order to take both sides of an argument, as you clearly do, I call them out for it.
I am sceptical that a dictionary will resolve the debate over the meaning of the word.
It is not surprising that someone who misuses words and distorts their meaning would be skeptical about dictionary definitions.
SB ignores this and responds with what he says are synonyms of “wrong” in a moral context.
No, SB is simply pointing out that all of the words, some of which come closer by being synonyms than others, are all in the objective mode.
I point out that they aren’t synonyms (I was quite surprised to find an educated chap like SB doesn’t notice this). “Illegal” is clearly not a synonym of “morally wrong”.
You miss the point in a spectacular way. Some of the words come closer to being synonyms than others, but it should be obvious that if they are all being used to express the meaning of the word in question, which is the word "wrong, they have something important in common, namely their objective meaning. That is the point. They are all in the objective mode. None are in the subjective mode. If you think otherwise, tell me which word you think is in the subjective mode.
He presents no more arguments to support his case but reiterates his belief in stronger language:
Obviously, Mark is very confused. One first settles on the meaning of terms and then makes arguments. One does not make arguments to establish a word's meaning. The whole point is agree on the meaning of words in order to have a rational discussion, something that I have not yet attained with Mark.
I am not aware of having equivocated on anything. I have always been insistent that moral language is subjective.
Aren't you? You have stated that rape is "wrong." Please define the word, "wrong" as you are using it. <StephenB
January 18, 2015
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faded_glory said:
If you asked me the question, my answer would be: yes, it is wrong. The standard I use to make this judgement is my own moral standard. The answer ‘I don’t know if it is wrong’ does not follow logically from subjective morality. It would follow logically if there are no moral standards at all, but nobody here makes that claim.
If morality is a subjective phenomena, then "moral wrongness" is a subjective phenomena. This means the moral wrongness of any act can only be determined by the individual committing the act. A third party cannot determine if the act is morally wrong for the person committing the act; the only thing a third party can know is if that act would be morally wrong for themselves if they committed the act. The only way to have the logical capacity to claim that an act is wrong when someone else does it is by assuming that how you feel about it represents some kind of transpersonal, binding judgement on the behavior of others as well, regardless of how they personally feel about it. This is the problem when a moral subjectivist says that the behavior of others "is wrong". Logically, they can say it would be wrong if they themsleves did it, but they have no way of assessing if it is wrong for the other person to do it, because the "wrongness" of any act is wholly contained in the subjective mind of the individual committing or contemplating the act. As I said in the other thread:
The statement “I feel it’s wrong when others abuse people” can be truthfully said by someone who believes themselves to be a moral subjectivist, but the such feelings are inconsistent with the subjectivist model, because rights and wrongs are entirely set by each individual under that model. A statement that is consistent with the subjectivist model would be: “I feel it is wrong for others to abuse people, but logically that must be based on projecting myself into their position and evaluating the behavior from my own subjective point of view. Since I am not them, I do not know what is moral for them, and so my projections are not valid evaluators of their moral experience. Therefore, although I feel that their behavior is wrong, those feelings must be erroneous projections of my own moral preferences as if they also applied to someone else.”
You can't have it both ways; morality is either subjective and thus you have no capacity to pass judgement on the morals of others (because there is no objective standard by which to pass such judgement), or morality is objective and subject to external judgement. Under moral subjectivism, saying that the behavior of someone else is wrong is the equivalent of saying that their preference for vanilla ice cream is wrong, or that their preference for brunettes is wrong. Their personal preferences cannot be "wrong" regardless of how strongly anyone else dislikes their personal preferences. It is a category error, a complete non-sequitur. Subjective morals are personal preferences, no matter how strongly felt; as such, they simply cannot be "wrong", and certainly cannot be meaningfully judged "wrong" by any third party.William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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Interesting topic. Smart people on both sides. A supposition I see here which I think almost entirely false, is that if one happens to believe in God and soul, one has a moral compass and this compass will make a real difference in one's own morality. But in reality people do what they want and justify it how they will. In reality, an outward belief in some strong moral precepts given from on high and with a whacking stick to create fear works only intermittently and for the grossest sins. And even if it does work, maybe someone refrains from stealing, it is still a very low level of moral development that even requires this. In the end, if we do have souls, and if we are to learn moral development, don't we want beings who have internalized morality, i.e., do not need an outer authority? Who prefer fairness and kindness of itself? It may be so that there is such a thing as an objective source of morality, but in the end it is all subjective anyway - for to accept any belief such as in God requires a subjective judgment. If I decide to accept a particular church or outlook in the Christian religion, for example, it seems, if you don't introspect too deeply, that you have accepted an outer authority. But in the end every moral decision or belief system we ever make is made internally and subjectively, and the morality of our choices has everything to do with our personal level of development and ability to listen to the still, small voice. Often people do not like or agree with something, and switch churches. Whether rightly or wrongly is not my point. My point is that in the end your morality is a matter of your own, very subjective conscience. Belief in God is subjective. I am not saying that morality does not come from God. I am saying that if you think that gives you a real leg up, it is not really true as moral development is a subjective matter, and in the depths of our hearts we hold the cards of judgment. As for the subjectivists, though, while I can agree that many things we call moral could be the result of evolutionary life processes, that seems to apply mostly to groups close to oneself. I would like to know if anyone can give me an answer to the question of, if a certain Aryanist dictator prevailed and decided to wipe out all of humanity so as to give some elbow room to what he determined to be the best race, leaving an entire blond, blue eyed planet, would this have been wrong?onething
January 18, 2015
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Faded Glory As much as you'd like to lower humans to animal status It just won't work, animals can not vote, they can not agree nor sign a contract, they can't do volunteer work, they can't pay tax, they will never tell you how they feel. I'm not disputing animal intelligence, some sure are smart, We have an African Gray, he can speak incredibly well, even the occasional cuss word, Do you think the parrot knows it's swearing? How does this foul language weigh-in on his morality? His favorite saying is. "Look they are stealing chickens" yeah he is a farm bird.... Do you think he knows what that means? Humans have duties and responsibilities animals don't.Andre
January 18, 2015
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faded_glory said:
The challenge is not to figure out which one is the ‘real’ one, but rather it is to work out how we can all best live together in the light of such differences.
Why should anyone care about how to best live together wrt their moral differences?William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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To some people it makes sense and it's acceptable to kill other people in order to eat them. Why not? What kind of persuasive 'moral' argument can anyone present in order to make the cannibals change their attitude and behavior? http://quotes.dictionary.com/Morality_is_the_custom_of_ones_country_and Basically, subjective standards are created, established, implemented, promoted, enforced, by people. They lack universal validity, unless they are 100% based on absolute standards. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/wjm-on-subjectivist-equivocations/#comment-542670Dionisio
January 18, 2015
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AS said:
But I’m not citing it as a “moral authority”. I’m citing it as an example of widespread consensus.
When someone asks you, "says who?", what they are asking you is "on who's authority?" or "by what authority?" Is "widespread consensus" then your moral authority? If "widespread consensus" said that rape was okay, would you agree that rape was moral or ethical?
And I agree with the document because it makes sense. If it sanctioned rape, neither I nor, I suspect, the vast majority of civilized people, would accept it.
But if the document did sanction it, and the vast majority of humanity agreed, then would you submit to that view?William J Murray
January 18, 2015
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