Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

WJM on Subjectivist Equivocations

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The following is from William J. Murray:

The problem inherent in arguments for subjective morality is often that those arguing for subjectivism employ terminology that is unavailable to their argument, such as X “is wrong” or “is immoral”. That phrasing obfuscates what the subjectivist must mean as opposed to what an objectivist means when they say the same thing.

Normally, especially in a debate like this, one would use terms and phrasings that distinguish between personal preference and an implied reference to an objective ruling/measurement. In regular conversation, there would be a situational understanding, like: “No, that’s the wrong color shoes to go with your outfit.” where the term “wrong” would be understood as a strong expression of personal aesthetics.
Usually, the line is drawn more distinctly: “It’s not the right choice for me, but it might be for you.” In a debate about morality, leaving off the qualifying terminology undermines the clarity of the argument and the capacity to recognize logical errors.
What does it mean when a supposed moral subjectivist says, “It’s wrong for others to do X”? Since “doing X” cannot actually in itself “be wrong” under moral subjectivism, in the sense that 2+2=25 is “wrong”, or in the sense that “red + blue = green” is wrong, it must be meant in either a personal or a perceived social sensibility manner, like, “Serving guacamole with halibut is so wrong” or “voting for Romney is wrong”.

When it comes to moral subjectivists, “it’s wrong to rape” or “it’s wrong to torture” cannot be anything more than statements of subjective personal or social-sensibility preference, even if they are very strongly felt and believed; the onus is on the individual to recognize that their preference is just that – a personal preference (even if writ large to a social sensibility).
The question for so-called moral subjectivists is: outside of morality and ethics, would you feel comfortable forcing others to adhere to your personal preferences or your social sensibilities? Are you comfortable forcing people to not serve guacamole with halibut, or forcing them to not vote for Romney?

Now, are you comfortable intervening and forcing someone to stop raping or toturing another person?
This is the line where the obfuscating phrasing cannot go beyond, and it is where supporters of moral subjectivism cast their gaze away from the obvious distinction; even the moral subjectivist agrees that forcing personal preferences or social sensibilities upon others is itself immoral. They will fight against such things as a negative social sensibility against various minorities and certainly against individuals forcing their personal preferences on others.

Hypocritically, though, that’s all that morality is in their worldview; they are guilty of doing the very thing they deem immoral in the first place; in fact, their entire moral mechanism of forcing others to abide their personal preferences or social sensibilities is one they see as immoral everywhere else. They would force a freedom from religion, as if forcing religion on others was in principle different. They would force others to treat minorities equally, but enslaving them is using the exact same in-principle rationale.
Moral subjectivists want there to be some kind of distinction between “morality” and other personal preferences and social sensibilities to purchase a rationale for imposing their views on others, and will refer to moral views as “really strong” feelings; but, no matter how strong those feelings are, unless they posit morality as something else in principle than subjective feelings or social sensibilities, their behavior is the in-principle equivalent of any other moral view.

But, they certainly do not behave that way; they behave (like any moral objectivist) as if they have some authority and obligation beyond what can be accounted for by personal preference and social sensibility, no matter how strong such feelings are. There is an operational boundary between what one is willing to do for what one recognizes as matters of subjective personal taste and social sensibility, and what one is willing to do in cases where an objective, necessary and self-evident boundary is being crossed.
No amount of equivocation can hide the difference in how one behaves when it comes to serious moral matters and matters of personal preference/social sensibility.

Here ends WJM’s comment.

WJM’s interlocutor at this time was a buffoon who styles himself “hrun0815.” Said buffoon responded to the comment as follows:

“Yes, yes, WJM. TL;DR about your whole diatribe.” I take it that “TL;DR” is internet shorthand for “too long; didn’t read.” If that is the case, hrun0815 has proven himself unworthy of being taken seriously on these pages, and I would encourage our readers and posters simply to ignore him.

Comments
Is wide spread consensus not exactly like might makes right? Until the 17th century the consensus was that the sun revolved around the earth. As late as the 20th century the consensus was that and to degree still is if you believe in evolution that an African is just above a Gorilla. Consensus morality does not mean it true. I can justify why rape and murder is moral 1. If I kill you, you can no longer have offspring thus I'm guaranteeing my reproductive success. 2. If I rape as many woman as I want I increase my reproductive fitness. 3. My moral code is about survival, therefore my actions are moral.Andre
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
11:01 AM
11
11
01
AM
PDT
Andre: Morals and behaviour or not the same thing. Agreed. I might be moral but my behaviour can be contra to my morality. Agreed Animals do not have morals. It is absurd to even think that some behaviour from an animal can be considered moral. Animals do not and cannot contemplate their own morality. That is a very glib dismissal indeed. I think this subject would benefit from a more expansive treatment but I am not sure this is the right thread for that. However, allow me a few comments. Truth is that there are a vast number of unknowns when it comes to what animals are conscious of, what the nature and extent of their intelligence is, how they arrive at decisions etc. etc. Of course this is also the case with humans, where the truth is that we are nowhere near answering the same questions. We can have conversations with people where they can describe their inner experiences, which we can't do with animals, so it is even more difficult to get at the answers there. I suspect that, as in the case of intelligence, there is a sliding scale between having a moral compass and not having one. There is a rich field of study on Moral Development in humans, and it is clear that people are not born with a fully fledged sense of morality, nor do they wake up one day and suddenly find themselves in the possession of a complete moral compass that they lacked the day before. These things are gradational. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_development Intelligence in animals is gradational too. My dog is more intelligent than my hamster who in turn is more intelligent than my goldfish. Could it be possible that a similar gradation exists for morality? Frans de Waal's studies, and those of others, suggest that we can't rule this out. I find it a fascinating subject, and declaring the answer to be 'no' out of hand robs us of the opportunity to learn an awful lot about the animal world as well as ourselves. fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
Box: Some questions come to mind: What is the basis of a subjective moral standard? Is it purely irrational/emotional? Also, is it flexible – like one’s sense of beauty? I can't really speak for others, but in my case I am pretty sure that the basis for my moral standard is a mix of my innate character, influence of upbringing, feeling and reasoning. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by 'flexible' in this context. There will be grey areas, for sure, and I would hope that I also have the capacity for learning so that certain things that might have appeared as moral to me 20 or 30 years ago no longer do so, and vice versa. fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
10:42 AM
10
10
42
AM
PDT
SB #132 I suppose when you have run out of arguments then quoting Lewis Carroll is an alternative. To summarise this little spat for posterity. The thread is about whether morality is objective or subjective. One way of expressing this is to ask when we make a moral judgement are we making an objective statement or expressing our own opinion or something in between.  As we make moral judgements using moral language this is equivalent to asking what does moral language mean. However, SB insists that anyone who does not use moral language objectively is misusing the word.  He challenges me to look up the meaning of wrong to confirm this.  I am sceptical that a dictionary will resolve the debate over the meaning of the word. But clearly if it does then it will save a lot of time. As “wrong” has many definitions very few of which are anything to do with morality I look up the moral word evil instead. I am not surprised to find that the definitions are only other moral words so this throws no light on whether moral language is objective. SB ignores this and responds with what he says are synonyms of “wrong” in a moral context. I point out that  they aren’t synonyms (I was quite surprised to find an educated chap like SB doesn’t notice this). “Illegal” is clearly not a synonym of “morally wrong”. Other words are closer to being synonyms but are moral language and not surprisingly equally subjective. SB ignores this. He presents no more arguments to support his case but reiterates his belief in stronger language:
Again, if you will not respect the meanings of words, I will no longer dialogue with you. It is impossible to have a rational discussion with those who equivocate on meanings.
I am not aware of having equivocated on anything. I have always been insistent that moral language is subjective.  Throughout the spat I have suggested that it would be valuable to analyse/debate what moral language means. So end up saying:
I would be interested in discussing whether moral language is subjective but not on the basis that I have to admit you are right before we begin!
SB ignores this and gives us some quotes from Lewis Carroll. And that is the end of a rather tawdry little exchange.Mark Frank
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
10:41 AM
10
10
41
AM
PDT
This document, for example. The list of countries not having signed up is short and interesting.
So if that document said rape was okay, would you still abide by it as your moral authority?William J Murray
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT
Who says it's a right not to be raped, robbed or murdered?Andre
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
09:32 AM
9
09
32
AM
PDT
Graham2 "...how can you judge other moral codes … you cant. That is exactly the point. That is the whole point." Ahh, but you did. You said that it would be "wrong" for me to kill you and your children and rape your wife. Which takes us right back to the beginning. I said subjectivists absolutely believe in objective right and wrong simultaneously as they reject it. You said you didn't understand and you were right -- you don't understand -- but you demonstrated my point exactly. You believe in objective right and wrong -- when it's your ass on the line -- but then you turn around and say it doesn't exist. "You are getting there at last." Right again. My point was to demonstrate your irrationality. And we did get there indeed.Florabama
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
07:47 AM
7
07
47
AM
PDT
Morals and behaviour or not the same thing. I might be moral but my behaviour can be contra to my morality. Animals do not have morals. It is absurd to even think that some behaviour from an animal can be considered moral. Animals do not and cannot contemplate their own morality.Andre
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
07:24 AM
7
07
24
AM
PDT
Faded-Glory, Care to elaborate? Some questions come to mind: What is the basis of a subjective moral standard? Is it purely irrational/emotional? Also, is it flexible - like one's sense of beauty?Box
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT
Andre, You say 'just-so stories', but did you check out Frans de Waal? Here is a link to a 15 minute lecture where he presents various experiments on primates and elephants that show pretty convincingly that such animals can act in ways we would call moral, if they had been human. It is very interesting and funny too. http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals Again you claim that natural selection cannot work on the immaterial. Do you consider behaviour material or immaterial? fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
06:22 AM
6
06
22
AM
PDT
Box, Maybe an analogy will help. 'Wrong' in ethics is like 'ugly' in aesthetics. 'This is wrong' describes our reaction when we experience, or consider, acts that go against our moral standards. fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
06:17 AM
6
06
17
AM
PDT
Faded_Glory: Graham2 didn’t say he doesn’t know if it is wrong. He said he doesn’t know if it is objectively wrong.
Not sure why you say this, since I quote Graham2 saying that he doesn't know if it is objectively wrong. Moreover, when I use 'wrong' I always mean it in the objective sense. Frankly I'm not sure what 'wrong' means in the subjective sense. I guess is it means something like: feeling that 753*951=726103 is 'right' or 'wrong', but having no way of (objectively) checking it. Maybe you can elucidate the matter.
Faded_Glory: He also gave his reason for saying that: he can’t consult the objective standard to see if it is objectively wrong or not.
Again I'm not sure as to why you say this. I quote Graham2 saying just that.
Faded_Glory: The answer ‘I don’t know if it is wrong’ does not follow logically from subjective morality.
Here, you split ways with Graham2 and clearly refer to 'wrong' in a subjective sense, which I would like you to elucidate.
Which standard would you use to answer the question, and can you show me where it is? I presume you can, since you claim it objectively exists somewhere?
I can and I will - in time - however for the sake of clarity of discussion let's focus on the validity of subjective morality.Box
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
06:08 AM
6
06
08
AM
PDT
Spare me the just so stories. Have you ever considered that Darwinism has a problem? It explains everything. I'll say it again morality did not evolve from non morality..... It is impossible and if you claim it can then you need to back yourself . Morals are immaterial, natural selection can not act the immaterial.Andre
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
05:56 AM
5
05
56
AM
PDT
Andre:
The rest of the tripe you conjured in your mind is of course the standard Darwin story, about us being animals that just got lucky. If you make such outlandish claims you need to back it up with evidence. Non morality can not evolve into morality. Natural selection can not act on anything immaterial.
I don't know if we got 'lucky', that depends on what you count as luck I suppose. I sometimes think that my cat has a far luckier life than I do! I disagree that my explanation of the origin of moral codes (what you charmingly call 'tripe') is 'outlandish'. You will that find this explanation, or something similar, is fairly widely (but not universally) held in the academic world where these things are being studied. There is plenty of evidence that certain social mammals can behave in ways that resemble human moral traits such as altruism. You could check out the work of Frans de Waal for starters. Finally, of course natural selection can work on immaterial things. Animal behaviour has a direct influence on their reproductive success. Come to think of it, so does human behaviour. fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
05:46 AM
5
05
46
AM
PDT
Andre: So your moral code is better than mine? How do you know? Say if I don’t accept your moral code because I find consenting sex immoral. How will you rectify that? But again how do we know your moral code is the true and correct one? I didn't say that mine is better than yours, and I don't know if it is, because I don't know yours. It is also highly unlikely that everything in your moral code would be different than in mine (see my post above where I explain what I believe about the origin of our moral codes). More likely we have different views on the morality of some things, but not all. I believe you will find that such differences exist between virtually all people, if you were to compare their moral codes in sufficient detail. If you have a different view on certain issues than me, I have the choice to ignore that (if I don't find the difference important enough), or we can have a discussion in which I can try to persuade you that my view is better than yours. I am surprised that you don't know this, because such discussions take place everywhere and all the time. Don't you follow what is going on in the world around you? You don't even have to leave UD to read such discussions, they are taking place in this very thread! Finally, you ask again how you would know that my moral code is the true and correct one. This question shows that you still don't grasp the nature of subjective morality (which, in my view, is the only one that exists): there exists no 'true' and 'correct' moral code. We all have our own, and they will all differ in some aspects. The challenge is not to figure out which one is the 'real' one, but rather it is to work out how we can all best live together in the light of such differences. fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
05:30 AM
5
05
30
AM
PDT
Faded Glory The rest of the tripe you conjured in your mind is of course the standard Darwin story, about us being animals that just got lucky. If you make such outlandish claims you need to back it up with evidence. Non morality can not evolve into morality. Natural selection can not act on anything immaterial.Andre
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
05:21 AM
5
05
21
AM
PDT
Box:
A good theory describes reality with accuracy. When witnessing how someone intentionally harms a child, can “I don’t know if it is wrong” (as a logical derivation from subjective morality) be an accurate description of reality? I mean: who is capable of holding such a position? I would like to suggest that only a total intellectual disconnect from reality provides a basis for “I don’t know if it is wrong”.
Graham2 didn't say he doesn't know if it is wrong. He said he doesn't know if it is objectively wrong. He also gave his reason for saying that: he can't consult the objective standard to see if it is objectively wrong or not. If you asked me the question, my answer would be: yes, it is wrong. The standard I use to make this judgement is my own moral standard. The answer 'I don't know if it is wrong' does not follow logically from subjective morality. It would follow logically if there are no moral standards at all, but nobody here makes that claim. Which standard would you use to answer the question, and can you show me where it is? I presume you can, since you claim it objectively exists somewhere? fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
05:18 AM
5
05
18
AM
PDT
Faded Glory So your moral code is better than mine? How do you know? Say if I don't accept your moral code because I find consenting sex immoral. How will you rectify that? But again how do we know your moral code is the true and correct one?Andre
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
05:15 AM
5
05
15
AM
PDT
"I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said. Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'" "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master-that's all." Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper some of them- particularly verbs: they're the proudest- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!" Through the Looking Glass, Ch. VI "Then you should say what you mean," the March Hare went on. "I do, "Alice hastily replied; "at least I mean what I say, that's the same thing, you know." "Not the same thing a bit!" said the Hatter. "Why, you might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see!" Alice in Wonderland. "For a complete logical argument", Arthur began with admirable solemnity, "we need two prim Misses --" "Of course!" she interrupted. "I remember that word now. And they produce --" "A Delusion," said Arthur. "Ye-es?" she said dubiously. "I don't seem to remember that so well. But what is the whole argument called?" "A Sillygism." Sylvie and Bruno.StephenB
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
05:09 AM
5
05
09
AM
PDT
Graham2, I applaud you for logical consistency. On Florabama’s question:
#103 (…) if I came into your home and killed you and your children then raped your wife, would that be wrong in an objective sense?
you answer:
Graham2 #104: (…) I don’t know.
you go on explaining that there is no basis to pass judgment:
Graham2 #104: If there is no absolute standard, then your question is meaningless. (there isn’t & it is). #114: If there is an objective standard, then why don’t we all just follow it ? #115: (…) just consider the world that is around you, that’s all, just look. What you are seeing is precisely what you would expect if there was no god.
IOW you accept the simple fact that under subjective morality there is no objective standard and follow the logical consequences. A good theory describes reality with accuracy. When witnessing how someone intentionally harms a child, can “I don’t know if it is wrong” (as a logical derivation from subjective morality) be an accurate description of reality? I mean: who is capable of holding such a position? I would like to suggest that only a total intellectual disconnect from reality provides a basis for “I don’t know if it is wrong”. And if there is no one ( psychopaths excluded) who is able to hold this “I don’t know if it is wrong” - because it goes against everything a person is - then doesn’t that in itself inform us that subjective morality is wrong?Box
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
04:36 AM
4
04
36
AM
PDT
fG @ 120 [correcting errors in my post #121]
I think you are confusing a subjective standard with the absence of a standard. Words like ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ require a standard to have a meaning, in this you are correct. However, such a standard may be subjective without the words losing their meaning.
Would their meaning be also subjective? Would that also mean relative? In the case of driving an automobile on a road, is it always right to be on the right side of the road? Anywhere in the world? Is there any place in the world where the local authority could tell me that driving on the right side of the road is wrong? Universally, is driving on the right side of a road absolutely right or absolutely wrong? 1. Absolutely right 2. Absolutely wrong 3. Neither one. 4. Something else. Specify:________ Perhaps what StephenB was trying to say is that in the absence of an absolute standard, judgmental terms like 'right'/'wrong' lack absolute meaning? The above road example illustrates a case where 'right' and 'wrong' lack absolute (universal) meaning, although one must obey the local road regulations, which define their own particular set of 'rights' and 'wrongs' that are valid solely within that given territory.Dionisio
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
04:02 AM
4
04
02
AM
PDT
I see very little difference in the objective/subjective status between the expressions 'this is beautiful' and 'this is wrong'. Is our sense of beauty objective? Or is it subjective and we are not really allowed to say 'this is beautiful' on pain of abusing the language? Or, do we all understand that we mean 'it is beautiful to me' when we say 'it is beautiful', and we just don't make a big deal out of it? fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
03:08 AM
3
03
08
AM
PDT
“Wrong” means objectively wrong,
And I disagree. You have done nothing to prove this - just asserted it. When you tried turning to the dictionary you came up with things that were either not synonyms or no more objective than "wrong". You say that anyone who does not agree with your definition is not respecting the meaning of the word when actually what they are doing is not respecting what you want the word to mean. You are not going to bully me into saying something I don't agree with just by asserting it very confidently. I would be interested in discussing whether moral language is subjective but not on the basis that I have to admit you are right before we begin!Mark Frank
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
02:29 AM
2
02
29
AM
PDT
Mark Frank
However, if you are not prepared to even debate whether ethical language might have a subject element then you are declaring yourself to have won before we start and you are right, we might as well save a lot of time and move on. I think it is a shame because exploring the nature of moral language is fascinating and fruitful – and we might actually learn something.
Mark, objective morality always has a subjective component for the simple reason that the individual subject, the person, must apply the general principle, which is the object. There is nothing to debate about that. I am, in no way, questioning the fact that morality has a subjective component. That has absolutely nothing to do with the meaning of the word, "wrong." Nothing. You are confusing an argument with a definition. If you don't respect the meanings of words, you cannot make a rational argument. You can't say, "If A, then B, if no one knows what you mean by A. "Wrong" means objectively wrong, just as "incorrect" means objectively incorrect. it doesn't mean subjectively wrong or subjectively incorrect. To transform those words into the subjective mode, you need to add other words to them, such as, "to me, its wrong" or "from my moral perspective, it wrong," or "it seems wrong to me." You cannot say, it "is" wrong and remain in the subjective mode. That metaphysical formulation makes it objective, just as the dictionary informs us. Again, if you will not respect the meanings of words, I will no longer dialogue with you. It is impossible to have a rational discussion with those who equivocate on meanings.StephenB
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
02:01 AM
2
02
01
AM
PDT
FG #120
Words like ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ require a standard to have a meaning, in this you are correct.
I don't think this is always true - or at least it is only true in the sense that we always have a reason for judging something morally right or wrong. But "standard" seems to imply some kind of rule or code and that doesn't seem to me to apply all the time. When Boko Haram use a 10 year old girl as a suicide bomber I don't compare it to a standard (below minimum age for suicide bombing?) to judge it as deeply wrong. I just react. And to anticipate all the objectivists' reaction - I do think some members of Boko Haram may sincerely think it is morally justified - largely because they think they know the ultimate objective moral code. I can't definitively prove them wrong. But I can be utterly morally repelled why what they do and do what very little I can to prevent it.Mark Frank
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
01:59 AM
1
01
59
AM
PDT
fG @ 120 Would their meaning be also subjective? Would that also mean relative? In the case of driving an automobile on a road, is it always right to be on the right side of the road? Anywhere in the world? Is there any place in the world where the local authority could tell me that driving on the right side of the raid is wrong? In such case, is the right side right or wrong?Dionisio
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
01:32 AM
1
01
32
AM
PDT
StephenB, I think you are confusing a subjective standard with the absence of a standard. Words like 'right' and 'wrong' require a standard to have a meaning, in this you are correct. However, such a standard may be subjective without the words losing their meaning. fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
01:09 AM
1
01
09
AM
PDT
Andre @ 109 said: The point is not about what is right or wrong. The point is if moral subjectivism is true then there really is no right or wrong because everything everyone does is right according to their own moral code. Therefore how can you judge other moral codes? Do you compare it to your own and if you do how do we know yours is right? --------------------------- These are good questions. I believe that one's concept of right and wrong, one's moral compass, is a deeply fundamental element of who we are as persons. Generally speaking, most people share many common moral concepts which I believe are founded in our ancestry as social animals. Most animals will defend their offspring against predators, and social animals often defend their own group against outsiders. These are deep rooted traits that are still very pervasive in humans. What makes humans different from other animals is our significantly more developed consciousness and intelligence, and our ability to pass on our knowledge, experience and opinions to our fellow humans and offspring. The result of this is the emergence of human culture. Everyone grows up in a culture of some form or another, and their incipient personalities are imbued with the moral values that are held by the group they grow up in - their parents, siblings, friends, teachers, their religion and the wider community in which they live. Individuals adopt those values to a greater or lesser degree, depending on factors such as their innate personalities and their particular life experiences. The result of all this is that every single one of us has strongly held beliefs on what is right and what is wrong. Because of the multitude of factors influencing the shaping of these beliefs it is however unlikely that there is 100% agreement on these beliefs between any two people. People's moral beliefs guide the choices they have to make in life, and they determine to a large extent how they react to the actions of themselves and others. When we are confronted with moral codes different from our own, we react to those using our own moral concepts as the standard. It is what we do as beings with a sense of right and wrong. It is incoherent, and I believe actually impossible, for anyone to judge a moral code using any other yardstick than their own. It is not logically possible for someone who considers Hitler a criminal to think at the same time that he was actually not a criminal because he did whatever he thought was the right thing to do. The incoherency is obvious. So, my answer to your question 'how do you judge other moral codes' is: I judge those against my own. And my answer to your question 'how do we know yours is right' is: you compare the two moral codes, yours and mine, carefully think about the differences, and either decide to stick with the one you already had (i.e. yours was right all along), or you adjust yours to a greater or lesser degree to the tenets of mine, if you conclude that there is some value in that. This is how I do it. Do you do something different? Added in edit: you also said: 'The point is if moral subjectivism is true then there really is no right or wrong because everything everyone does is right according to their own moral code. ' I don't think this is always the case. People can and will sometimes do things that go against their moral code, and upon reflection regret their actions. fGfaded_Glory
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
12:51 AM
12
12
51
AM
PDT
SB illegal, unlawful, illicit, criminal, corrupt are not synonyms for morally wrong. They are reasons why someone might be in wrong - but as you surely acknowledge you can be illegal and morally right. unethical, immoral, bad, wicked, sinful, iniquitous, nefarious, blameworthy, reprehensible are close to being synonyms for morally wrong but contain elements of judgement and are not objective dishonest, dishonorable, are interesting ones which could go either way depending on context You seem to be blind to these distinctions which seem so obvious to me and not even interested in them. However, if you are not prepared to even debate whether ethical language might have a subject element then you are declaring yourself to have won before we start and you are right, we might as well save a lot of time and move on. I think it is a shame because exploring the nature of moral language is fascinating and fruitful - and we might actually learn something.Mark Frank
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
12:48 AM
12
12
48
AM
PDT
Mark Frank
I am talking about moral language in general so it is hard to know which specific moral words to look up.
Mark, the word "wrong" has a specific meaning. If we break it down, we find that it is always used in the objective mode and never used in the subjective mode: Wrong 1. not correct or true. "that is the wrong answer" synonyms: incorrect, mistaken, in error, erroneous, inaccurate, inexact, imprecise, fallacious, wide of the mark, off target, unsound, faulty; All those synonyms are in the objective mode. In no case do we find formulations such as, "incorrect to me," or "seemingly imprecise," "feeling wide of the mark." Notice the example in the form of a sentence: "I was wrong about him being on the yacht that evening" Again, the word "wrong" is placed in the objective mode. The author doesn't say, "I thought I was wrong," or "it seemed wrong," or "it felt wrong." Wrong means objectively wrong--objectively incorrect, objectively off the mark, etc. The definition is further developed: inappropriate, unsuitable, inapt, inapposite, undesirable; More ill-advised, ill-considered, ill-judged, impolitic, injudicious, infelicitous, unfitting, out of keeping, improper; informalout of order "he knew he had said the wrong thing" antonyms: appropriate in a bad or abnormal condition; amiss. "something was wrong with the pump" synonyms: amiss, awry, out of order, not right, faulty, flawed, defective "there's something wrong with the engine" ***Everything is in the objective mode.*** It is the same thing when the word "wrong" is placed in a moral context. The mode remains objective: 2. unjust, dishonest, or immoral. "they were wrong to take the law into their own hands" synonyms: illegal, unlawful, illicit, criminal, dishonest, dishonorable, corrupt; More unethical, immoral, bad, wicked, sinful, iniquitous, nefarious, blameworthy, reprehensible; informalcrooked "I've done nothing wrong" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thus, when you said that the rapist should be punished because he did something "wrong," you were saying that his behavior was objectively wrong. Yet we both know that you don't think there is any such thing as objective right and wrong. You were, therefore, musing the word "wrong." I am asking you to acknowledge the point that you think the rapist should be punished because he did something that you find distasteful, or something that offends your personal sense of morality, not because he did something that was "wrong." If you continue to misuse that word in order to argue both ways, then I will just have to assume that you do not want to have a rational discussion. In that case, I will simply wish you well and move on.StephenB
January 18, 2015
January
01
Jan
18
18
2015
12:28 AM
12
12
28
AM
PDT
1 4 5 6 7 8 10

Leave a Reply