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WJM Throws Down the Gauntlet

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All that follows is WJM’s:

Modern physics has long ago disproved the idea that “matter” exists at all. Timothy’s position might as well be that because we all perceive the sun moving through the sky from east to west, it is a fact that it is the sun that is doing the moving.

Just because we perceive a world of what we call “matter” doesn’t change the fact that we know no such world actually exists regardless of what our perception tells us. What we call “matter” is a perceptual interpretation of something that is not, in any meaningful sense, “matter”. We know now (current science) that matter is, at its root, entirely “immaterial”, despite what our macro sensory perceptions have told us for millennia (like the sun moving through the sky).

Materialists are clinging to a pre-Victorian perspective of what it is we are perceiving, long since discarded after over a hundred years of experimental results.

Now we get to the so-called “material-immaterial interaction problem”. First, there is no “material world,” so it’s problematic to begin with a term that draws from an archaic, unscientific understanding of what it is we are perceiving.

Second, has the “material-material” interaction problem even been addressed, much less “solved”? We have absolutely no idea **how** “matter” interacts with other “matter”. We can describe the behavior of that interaction, then use a term to refer to that model as if that term was an actual “thing”, but describing the behavior is not explaining the **how** of the interaction.

When so-called dualism objectors can first explain matter/matter interaction, and when they can tell us what they mean by “material” and “immaterial”, they will then have a meaningful foundation to form a cogent objection to the idea of material/immaterial interaction.

Any materialist here up to that very basic task?

Comments
Gordon Davisson said:
This is just plain wrong. QM certainly has weird implications about the nature of reality, but the nonexistence of matter certainly isn’t one of them.
“[T]he atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts.” - Werner Heisenberg
Before I go further, do you consider nonmaterial-but-physical things like the gravitational and electromagnetic fields to be exceptions to materialism?
Not sure what you mean here, since I don't believe a material world exists, per se, outside of my perception of it.
So even there QM doesn’t really support the claim you’re making.
I'm aware of the many attempts by materialists to attempt to construct models that explain away the quantum evidence in some fashion that comports with their religion. Their desperation to salvage what QM theorists refer to as "local reality" have met with a bitter end (such as the de Broglie-Bohm pilot wave interpretation). Local realsim, which is the fundamental, necessary lynchpin of materialism and the root concept of "matter" (first idealized as the "atom" as the smallest, indivisible thing, I believe), has been incontrovertibly disproved. That subatomic states can only be described in terms of probability distributions (an not because we don't know where they; but rather, because the do not actually exist at any particular location until we measure them) tells us unequivocally that there is no material world independent of our perception of it. It's hardly a shock that materialists are attempting to find some way to explain the evidence to comport with their religion. I see you have not attempted to meet my challenge, presented in the OP. Can you tell me what matter is and how it interacts with other matter, without referring to the behavioral patterns as if that description explains those patterns?William J Murray
July 18, 2018
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I don’t know about Richard Feynman, but as for myself, being a Christian Theist, I find it rather comforting to know that it takes an ‘infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do’. The reason why I find it rather comforting is because of John 1:1, which says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ‘The Word’ in John 1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos also happens to be the root word from which we derive our modern word logic.
“Why should it take an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do?" - Richard Feynman John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." of note: ‘the Word’ in John 1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos is also the root word from which we derive our modern word logic http://etymonline.com/?term=logic
So that it would take an infinite amount of logic to know what tiny bit of spacetime is going to do is pretty much exactly what one should expect to see under Christian presuppositions. In fact, as a Christian Theist, I find both the double slit and quantum electrodynamics to be extremely comforting for Christian concerns. In the double slit experiment we found that while a photon and/or electron is traveling in the double slit experiment it is mathematically required to be defined as being in an infinite dimensional space. And we also found that the photon and/or electron is also mathematically required to be described by an infinite amount of information. Now, saying something is in an infinite dimensional state to me, as a Christian Theist, sounds very much like the theistic attribute of omnipresence.
Jeremiah 23:23-24 “Am I only a God nearby,” declares the LORD, “and not a God far away?” “Can a man hide in secret places where I cannot see him?” declares the LORD. “Do I not fill the heavens and earth?” declares the LORD.…
And then saying something takes an infinite amount of information to describe it sounds very much like the Theistic attribute of Omniscience to me.
Psalm 139:4-6 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it. Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite
And then we also saw that when Quantum Mechanics and Special Relativity were unified in quantum-electrodynamics that it still took an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do. Now all this is pretty much exactly what we would expect to see under Christian presuppositions. But, on the other hand, under Atheistic materialism and/or naturalism, and the presuppositions therein, there simply is no rational explanation for why we should find these things to be as they are. Moreover, the basics of quantum wave collapse dovetail perfectly into some of the oldest philosophical arguments that were made by Aristotle and Aquinas for the existence of God, and even offers empirical confirmation for those ancient philosophical arguments. Michael Egnor states that 'Aristotle 2,300 years ago described the basics of collapse of the quantum waveform (reduction of potency to act),,,'
Stephen Hawking: "Philosophy Is Dead" - Michael Egnor - August 3, 2015 Excerpt: The metaphysics of Aristotle and Aquinas is far and away the most successful framework on which to understand modern science, especially quantum mechanics. Heisenberg knew this (Link on site). Aristotle 2,300 years ago described the basics of collapse of the quantum waveform (reduction of potency to act),,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/08/stephen_hawking_3098261.html What Is Matter? The Aristotelian Perspective - Michael Egnor - July 21, 2017 Excerpt: Heisenberg, almost alone among the great physicists of the quantum revolution, understood that the Aristotelian concept of potency and act was beautifully confirmed by quantum theory and evidence.,,, Heisenberg wrote: ,,,The probability wave of Bohr, Kramers, Slater… was a quantitative version of the old concept of “potentia” in Aristotelian philosophy. It introduced something standing in the middle between the idea of an event and the actual event, a strange kind of physical reality just in the middle between possibility and reality…The probability function combines objective and subjective elements,,, Thus, the existence of potential quantum states described by Schrodinger’s equation (which is a probability function) are the potency (the “matter”) of the system, and the collapse of the quantum waveform is the reduction of potency to act. To an Aristotelian (like Heisenberg), quantum mechanics isn’t strange at all. https://evolutionnews.org/2017/07/what-is-matter-the-aristotelian-perspective/
Here is a technical explanation and video of Aquinas’ First way argument for God where you can, at your leisure, see just how well the argument from motion dovetails into what we are seeing in quantum mechanics
Aquinas’ First Way 1) Change in nature is elevation of potency to act. 2) Potency cannot actualize itself, because it does not exist actually. 3) Potency must be actualized by another, which is itself in act. 4) Essentially ordered series of causes (elevations of potency to act) exist in nature. 5) An essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act cannot be in infinite regress, because the series must be actualized by something that is itself in act without the need for elevation from potency. 6) The ground of an essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act must be pure act with respect to the casual series. 7) This Pure Act– Prime Mover– is what we call God. http://egnorance.blogspot.com/2011/08/aquinas-first-way.html Aquinas’ First Way – (The First Mover – Unmoved Mover) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmpw0_w27As
Or to put Aquinas' argument much more simply "The ‘First Mover’ is necessary for change occurring at each moment.":
"The ‘First Mover’ is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor – Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html
Thus quantum mechanics, as 'weird' as it has turned out to be, was actually anticipated by some of the greatest philosophers of ancient times Verse:
Acts 17:28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
bornagain77
July 18, 2018
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Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the superposition of the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Infinity – Max Tegmark Excerpt: real numbers with their infinitely many decimals have infested almost every nook and cranny of physics, from the strengths of electromagnetic fields to the wave functions of quantum mechanics: we describe even a single bit of quantum information (a qubit) using two real numbers involving infinitely many decimals. https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25344
Besides taking an infinite amount of information to describe properly, the 'particle' is also mathematically defined as being in an infinite dimensional state between emmision and absorption in the double slit,,,
The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960 Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html Wave function Excerpt "wave functions form an abstract vector space",,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space Why do we need infinite-dimensional Hilbert spaces in physics? You need an infinite dimensional Hilbert space to represent a wavefunction of any continuous observable (like position for example). https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/149786/why-do-we-need-infinite-dimensional-hilbert-spaces-in-physics
Some people may say, 'but hey, whatever the photon is doing in the double slit while it is traveling in its infinite dimensional/infinite information state, we at least know that it traveling at the speed of light. Yet, special relativity is just about as mysterious as a photon existing in an infinite dimensional/infinite information state.
"The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Dr. Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 11 Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4QDy1Soolo
Moreover, Richard Feynman, in his role in developing Quantum-Electrodynamics, which is a mathematical theory in which special relativity and quantum mechanics are unified,
Theories of the Universe: Quantum Mechanics vs. General Relativity Excerpt: The first attempt at unifying relativity and quantum mechanics took place when special relativity was merged with electromagnetism. This created the theory of quantum electrodynamics, or QED. It is an example of what has come to be known as relativistic quantum field theory, or just quantum field theory. QED is considered by most physicists to be the most precise theory of natural phenomena ever developed. http://www.infoplease.com/cig/theories-universe/quantum-mechanics-vs-general-relativity.html
,, Richard Feynman was only able to unify special relativity and quantum mechanics in quantum electrodynamics by quote unquote “brushing infinity under the rug” by a technique called Renormalization
THE INFINITY PUZZLE: Quantum Field Theory and the Hunt for an Orderly Universe Excerpt: In quantum electrodynamics, which applies quantum mechanics to the electromagnetic field and its interactions with matter, the equations led to infinite results for the self-energy or mass of the electron. After nearly two decades of effort, this problem was solved after World War II by a procedure called renormalization, in which the infinities are rolled up into the electron’s observed mass and charge, and are thereafter conveniently ignored. Richard Feynman, who shared the 1965 Nobel Prize with Julian Schwinger and Sin-Itiro Tomonaga for this breakthrough, referred to this sleight of hand as “brushing infinity under the rug.” http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/tackling-infinity
In the following video, Richard Feynman rightly expresses his unease with “brushing infinity under the rug” in Quantum-Electrodynamics:
“It always bothers me that in spite of all this local business, what goes on in a tiny, no matter how tiny, region of space, and no matter how tiny a region of time, according to laws as we understand them today, it takes a computing machine an infinite number of logical operations to figure out. Now how can all that be going on in that tiny space? Why should it take an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do?" - Richard Feynman – one of the founding fathers of QED (Quantum Electrodynamics) Quote taken from the 6:45 minute mark of the following video: Feynman: Mathematicians versus Physicists - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obCjODeoLVw
bornagain77
July 18, 2018
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Dr. Vlatko Vedral, who is a Professor of Physics at the University of Oxford, and who is a recognized leader in the field of quantum mechanics, states, “The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena.”
“The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena.” Vlatko Vedral – Professor of Physics at the University of Oxford, and CQT (Centre for Quantum Technologies) at the National University of Singapore, and a Fellow of Wolfson College – a recognized leader in the field of quantum mechanics.
Years before Vedral stated that, renowned physicist John Wheeler stated “in short all matter and all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe”.
“it from bit” Every “it”— every particle, every field of force, even the space-time continuum itself derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely—even if in some contexts indirectly—from the apparatus-elicited answers to yes-or-no questions, binary choices, bits. “It from bit” symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has a bottom—a very deep bottom, in most instances, an immaterial source and explanation, that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment—evoked responses, in short all matter and all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe.” – Princeton University physicist John Wheeler (1911–2008) (Wheeler, John A. (1990), “Information, physics, quantum: The search for links”, in W. Zurek, Complexity, Entropy, and the Physics of Information (Redwood City, California: Addison-Wesley)
In the following article, Anton Zeilinger, who is also a leading expert in quantum mechanics, stated that ‘it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows.’
Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word.” Anton Zeilinger – a leading expert in quantum mechanics: http://www.metanexus.net/archive/ultimate_reality/zeilinger.pdf
And in the following video at the 48:24 mark, Anton Zeilinger goes on to state that “It is operationally impossible to separate Reality and Information” and he then goes on to note, at the 49:45 mark, the Theological significance of John 1:1 “In the Beginning was the Word”
48:24 mark: “It is operationally impossible to separate Reality and Information” 49:45 mark: “In the Beginning was the Word” John 1:1 Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZPWW5NOrw
The easiest way to demonstrate this 'non-material', information theoretic, foundation of reality is with the double slit experiment. Richard Feynman stated this about the double slit experiment with electrons
“We choose to examine a phenomenon, (the double slit experiment), which is impossible, absolutely impossible, to explain in any classical way, and which has in it the heart of quantum mechanics. In reality, it contains the only mystery.” - Richard Feynman – The Feynman Lectures on Physics, Volume I - Feynman • Leighton • Sands - Copyright © 1963, 2006, 2013 by California Institute of Technology, Chapter 37 http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_37.html
The double slit has now been performed with 'objects' much larger than electrons.
Double-slit superposition for objects as large as protein molecules: Matter-wave physics with nanoparticles and biomolecules - March 2017 Excerpt page 1: Double- and multi-slit diffraction experiments with massive matter have been realized with electrons [3], neutrons [4], atoms [5, 6] and their clusters [7], as well as small [8] and large molecules [9]. The combination of several diffraction elements into full matter-wave interferometers allowed accessing states of increasing macroscopicity: Nowadays, it is possible to delocalize individual atoms on the half-meter scale [10] and to demonstrate spatial superposition states from single electrons [11] up to organic molecules exceeding 10^4 amu [12]. All studies together already span a factor of 10^7 in mass and are still fully consistent with Schrodinger’s quantum mechanics, as developed 90 years ago [13]. In our present lecture we report on explorations of quantum physics with strongly bound, warm objects of high internal complexity. We study matter-wave interference of organic nanomatter that may bind dozens or beyond a thousand atoms into one single quantum object [14, 15].,,, Excerpt page 13: Figure 7. The functionalized porphyrin TPPF20 (left) is the largest object for which matter-wave interference has been observed so far. It compares in complexity and mass with insulin (middle) or cytochrome C (right). The extension of TPPF20 can reach up to 50 A. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.02129.pdf
The following Dr Quantum video is very good for highlighting some of the 'weirdness' seen in the double slit experiment.
Dr Quantum - Double Slit Experiment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
In this following video, Anton Zeilinger states that
"The path taken by the photon is not an element of reality. We are not allowed to talk about the photon passing through this or this slit. Neither are we allowed to say the photon passes through both slits. All this kind of language is not applicable." - Anton Zeilinger Quantum Mechanics - Double Slit Experiment. Is anything real? (Prof. Anton Zeilinger) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvbKafw2g0
And in this following video, Anton Zeilinger goes on to state that
"We know what the particle is doing at the source when it is created. We know what it is doing at the detector when it is registered. But we do not know what it is doing in-between." - Anton Zeilinger Prof Anton Zeilinger Shows the Double-slit Experiment – video http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgt69p_prof-anton-zeilinger-shows-the-double-slit-experiment_tech
Yet contrary to Zeilinger's claim that "We know what the particle is doing at the source when it is created. We know what it is doing at the detector when it is registered. But we do not know what it is doing in-between.", the fact of the matter is that not only do we not know what the photon is doing in between in the double slit experiment as it is traveling we really don't even know how photons are emitted and absorbed in the first place. This following wikipedia article on quantum electrodynamics states that 'It is important not to over-interpret these diagrams. Nothing is implied about how a particle gets from one point to another. The diagrams do not imply that the particles are moving in straight or curved lines. They do not imply that the particles are moving with fixed speeds. The fact that the photon is often represented, by convention, by a wavy line and not a straight one does not imply that it is thought that it is more wavelike than is an electron. The images are just symbols to represent the actions above: photons and electrons do, somehow, move from point to point and electrons, somehow, emit and absorb photons. We do not know how these things happen, but the theory tells us about the probabilities of these things happening.'
Quantum Electrodynamics The key components of Feynman's presentation of QED are three basic actions.[1]:85 *A photon goes from one place and time to another place and time. *An electron goes from one place and time to another place and time. *An electron emits or absorbs a photon at a certain place and time. These actions are represented in a form of visual shorthand by the three basic elements of Feynman diagrams: a wavy line for the photon, a straight line for the electron and a junction of two straight lines and a wavy one for a vertex representing emission or absorption of a photon by an electron. These can all be seen in the adjacent diagram. It is important not to over-interpret these diagrams. Nothing is implied about how a particle gets from one point to another. The diagrams do not imply that the particles are moving in straight or curved lines. They do not imply that the particles are moving with fixed speeds. The fact that the photon is often represented, by convention, by a wavy line and not a straight one does not imply that it is thought that it is more wavelike than is an electron. The images are just symbols to represent the actions above: photons and electrons do, somehow, move from point to point and electrons, somehow, emit and absorb photons. We do not know how these things happen, but the theory tells us about the probabilities of these things happening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_electrodynamics#Introduction
And although, according to Anton Zeilinger, we cannot know exactly what the photon is doing in the double slit experiment between emission and absorption, we do know that while a photon is doing whatever it is doing in the double slit, that it takes an infinite amount of information to describe it properly.
Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (quantum) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf
bornagain77
July 18, 2018
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Folks, Maybe I should clip and transfer my observations in the original discussion thread:
KF, 11: >>WJM, you are always thought-provoking. Maybe the key point is, matter is not so solid as it seems, indeed the sense of solidity is a matter of close in repulsion of interacting electron clouds per the inter-atomic force curve. That is, modern physics has transformed how we understand solidity. Interacting fields of influence and exchanged virtual particles etc are quite different from the naive hard massy balls of yore. In that context, bring to bear multidimensional fine tuning that sets up a cosmos for C-chem, aqueous medium, cell based life on terrestrial planets in galactic and planetary system habitable zones, and design of cosmos becomes a relevant issue pointing beyond the material cosmos. Blend in the gigo-limited computational substrate view of brains at work (how did the hardware & software come about, per observed factors, on blind watchmaker forces?) and we find blind mechanical and/or stochastic causal chains which undermines confidence in inference, reasoning, logic, warrant, knowledge. So, it turns out that we have here the side-stepping on a serious issue of self-referential incoherence. We cannot but act as responsibly, reasonably significantly free knowing, conscious, contemplative creatures, so why not start from that first undeniable empirical fact? Is it not so that we perceive matter through the lens of rational consciousness? Not to mention, the very important immaterial entities, information and numbers, without which science would be a non-starter. So, why use the perception to try to undermine the perceiver? Is that not self-referentially incoherent? Why not start out, we do not understand how mindedness interacts with matter, but we are more sure of it than we are of the result of that interaction, that we are credibly embodied beings in a physical world? Then, we can ask how say a Smith type model could work, and how quantum influences could shape neural network behaviour, etc? KF>> KF, 12: >>PS: Where, particles are wavicles and many particles are composite. What is “waving”? What is energy? What is mass? What is matter? What is space-time? What is number? What is information? What is reality? Why do many think it must be confined to just these entities, which we perceive through our conscious mindedness?>>
KF PS, Mung's remark, too, at 13:
> So, why use the perception to try to undermine the perceiver? Indeed. > What is energy? That too. Matter, Energy, Gravity …
kairosfocus
July 18, 2018
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Gordon Davisson @14: “...do you consider nonmaterial-but-physical things like the gravitational and electromagnetic fields to be exceptions to materialism?” Aren’t “nonmaterial-but-physical things like the gravitational and electromagnetic fields” also referred to as manifestations of energy? Doesn’t philosophical materialism consider both matter and energy as the fundamental reality? Isn’t philosophical materialism about the belief that matter and energy is all there is? Aren’t there two extremely opposite worldview positions: on one side matter and energy as the ultimate reality versus on the opposite side the ultimate reality described in the first statement of the book of Genesis, which is a foundational part of the ancient scriptures associated with the three major monotheistic beliefs in the world: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, which historically appeared in that chronological order, separated by several hundred years? The true ultimate reality is unambiguously described by this absolutely exclusive proclamation: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” [John 1:1-3] All modern science does and can do is studying the material component of the ultimate reality (i.e. matter and energy).PaoloV
July 18, 2018
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harry @11: I like the comment. Good point. Both St. Paul and Max Planck saw that the primary reality is not material. One might, from this perspective, consider matter to be merely an epiphenomenon of that fundamental, non-material reality, but one that is willed, as the primary reality is essentially a “Who,” not a “What.”PaoloV
July 18, 2018
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Modern physics has long ago disproved the idea that “matter” exists at all.
This is just plain wrong. QM certainly has weird implications about the nature of reality, but the nonexistence of matter certainly isn't one of them. There are many possible interpretations of QM -- that is, possibilities for how the abstract math used in QM might correspond to reality. Some interpretations involve matter existing in something very like the classical sense; some say matter exists, but in weird states that don't correspond to our intuitions about how states work; some say matter and nonmaterial-but-physical things like fields exist. The most you can really say is that some interpretations of QM allow that material things might not exist. Before I go further, do you consider nonmaterial-but-physical things like the gravitational and electromagnetic fields to be exceptions to materialism? If not, you should really be talking about physicalism, not materialism. On the other hand, if you do think they're exceptions, most of the people you're calling "a/mats" don't actually subscribe to the view you're attributing to them. Either way, nonmaterial-but-physical things don't refute the actual views of the people you call "a/mats". Probably the most blatantly materialistic (/physicalistic) interpretation of QM is the de Broglie-Bohm pilot wave interpretation (aka Bohmian mechanics). This interpretation posits that particles directly exist and have definite positions, but are accompanied by "pilot waves" that interact with them and guide their motion. If this view is correct, the wave-particle duality of QM (and all the other weird QM effects) are a result of the interaction between the particle and its guide wave. There are actually macroscopic phenomena that work very similarly; here is a video showing how oil droplets on an oil bath mimic pilot wave behavior. And that's far from the only physicalist interpretation of QM. Next consider objective collapse interpretations. These interpretations say that physical things (particles and fields) exist, but don't always have definite states; for example, an electron might be in a superposition of many different locations. Groups of particles and/or fields can also be in entangled superpositions, meaning that that the superposition correlates their individual states (note: this is a difficult concept to grasp, and I'm not going to try to give a full explanation here). The "objective collapse" part is that according to these interpretations, these superpositions sometimes collapse into definite states. For example, the Ghirardi–Rimini–Weber (GRW) interpretation proposes that individual particles randomly (and very rarely) collapse themselves (and as a side effect, all the other particles/fields they're entangled with). It turns out that as long as the collapses are rare enough, this winds up making the same predictions as all the other viable interpretations of QM (and matching all the experimental evidence). Then there's the many-worlds interpretation. It's actually a lot like the objective collapse interpretations, except that it says that collapse objectively never happens; superpositions are effectively permanent, and grow more and more entangled over time, with different parts of the superpositions becoming effectively different "worlds". But as with the objective collapse interpretation, the entangled superpositions -- and the particles and fields in those states -- are physically real. How about the Copenhagen interpretation? In this view, particles and fields generally don't have definite states until they're measured. It's a bit ambiguous what's going on between measurements -- for example, it doesn't really say that particles exist between measurements, but it doesn't deny it either. It's also rather ambiguous about what exactly constitutes a "measurement". Some people think that "measurement" must correspond to observation by an intelligent agent (i.e. a human), but it's more usually assumed that interaction with a macroscopic measurement apparatus (which clearly exists) qualifies. In a sense, it doesn't really matter; there are a wide range of definitions of "measurement" you could use that would all make the same predictions (and, as with GRW, match all the experimental evidence). Now, I should confess that there's something I've been ducking a bit by talking about particles and/or fields: in both there's a bit of ambiguity about whether a given type of "particle" is a real thing, or just something that arises from quantization of an underlying field. (And similarly, whether the corresponding fields are real, or just something that arises from superpositions of the corresponding particle's states). At least, this ambiguity exists in the many-worlds and Copenhagen interpretations; in de Broglie-Bohm both exist, and in GRW the particles that trigger collapse must be truly real. But even considering this ambiguity, you can't say that particles don't exist, just that they might not exist and you can't really tell. Now, there are also some non-realistic interpretations of QM, which say that QM doesn't directly describe reality at all, but rather something like the state of our knowledge. But (at least as far as I understand them) they don't so much say that physical reality doesn't exist, but that QM doesn't directly describe it. So even there QM doesn't really support the claim you're making.Gordon Davisson
July 17, 2018
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And as for his classic line, to the effect that the natural world only appears to be designed, what a pity someone didn't say to him something along the lines of : 'You mean, it is only empirically observable to be such, Richard ? I see....'Axel
July 17, 2018
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'The problem is that the matter luddites refuse to move into the modern era of science because it threatens their religious dogma.' In a nutshell, WJM. And it is something that needs to be continually hammered home. The sheer audacity of A/Mat scientists and philosophers of science making their living from QM while denying it's primordial significance - quite apart from its uniquely successful, indeed, mathematically proven to be the ultimate paradigm, not able to be improved upon) ; publicly dismissing it as 'crazy stuff' (not necessarily verbatim, but effectively so). Bohr had some interesting things to say on the subject, too: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr It is interesting that Dawkins - and I don't believe he is alone in this - without the least hesitancy, mistakes his own oxymoronic conjectures, e.g. the blind watchmaker, for paradoxes !Axel
July 17, 2018
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All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter. -- Max Planck, originator of quantum theory [God] is not far from each one of us, for ‘In him we live and move and have our being’ -- Acts 17:27-28
Both St. Paul and Max Planck saw that the primary reality is not material. One might, from this perspective, consider matter to be merely an epiphenomenon of that fundamental, non-material reality, but one that is willed, as the primary reality is essentially a "Who," not a "What." Is this the way WJM sees it?harry
July 17, 2018
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That article states that matter does exist.Silver Asiatic
July 17, 2018
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The size of an atom is governed by the average location of its electrons. Nuclei are around 100,000 times smaller than the atoms they’re housed in. If the nucleus were the size of a peanut, the atom would be about the size of a baseball stadium. If we lost all the dead space inside our atoms, we would each be able to fit into a particle of lead dust, and the entire human race would fit into the volume of a sugar cube. As you might guess, these spaced-out particles make up only a tiny portion of your mass. The protons and neutrons inside of an atom’s nucleus are each made up of three quarks. The mass of the quarks, which comes from their interaction with the Higgs field, accounts for just a few percent of the mass of a proton or neutron. Gluons, carriers of the strong nuclear force that holds these quarks together, are completely massless. If your mass doesn’t come from the masses of these particles, where does it come from? Energy. Scientists believe that almost all of your body’s mass comes from the kinetic energy of the quarks and the binding energy of the gluons.
Heartlander
July 17, 2018
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PaV asks:
On what basis are you saying that “matter” does not exist?
On the basis of over a hundred years of quantum theory experimental evidence.William J Murray
July 17, 2018
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The Matter Myth: Dramatic Discoveries that Challenge Our Understanding of Physical RealityMung
July 17, 2018
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WJM: On what basis are you saying that "matter" does not exist? Is there a post you've made somewhere that explains your position? Thanks.PaV
July 17, 2018
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Classic, traditional dualism is a distinction between spirit and matter. Soul and body. That life, mind and soul is immaterial, spiritual. Body and physical nature is different. The difference between a live body and a dead one - the presence of spirit. The term matter is used in that context to make a distinction. In the human being, the body and spirit are joined but are distinct and different.Silver Asiatic
July 17, 2018
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If matter is an illusion I find it a very convincing one.
I imagine that when you dream, you find the "material world" you interact with in that dream very convincing at the time. I don't know that I'd use the term "illusion" to describe our experience of what we call matter; perhaps "misunderstanding" would be a better word. Materialism is based on a deep misunderstanding of what it is we are actually experiencing and how we are experiencing it. Philosophical materialism, at its core, denies what modern science has repeatedly shown for over a hundred years. We do not live in a material universe, even though that is largely what we experience it as. So, the entire "material/immaterial interaction problem" is based on a misunderstanding; the erroneous belief that "matter" actually exists outside of our perception of it. It does not. We know this now. The problem is that the matter luddites refuse to move into the modern era of science because it threatens their religious dogma.William J Murray
July 17, 2018
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Matter isn't convincing to all cultures. Many older cultures start with the idea that 'spirit' is everywhere. Sometimes spirit produces compact illusions that we can grab and move and bump against. Sometimes it produces non-bumpable non-grabbable illusions like dreams and visions. This concept is much closer to de Broglie's concept that everything is waves and resonances.polistra
July 16, 2018
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http://nonlin.org/im-materialism/ ... 4. People that knew a thing or two about matter said… Max Planck: “As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter”, Das Wesen der Materie, 1944. Werner Heisenberg: "The ontology of materialism rested upon the illusion that the kind of existence, the direct 'actuality' of the world around us, can be extrapolated into the atomic range. This extrapolation, however, is impossible... atoms are not things."Nonlin.org
July 16, 2018
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If matter is an illusion I find it a very convincing one.aarceng
July 16, 2018
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