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Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?

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One of the recurring themes on this blog is moral subjectivism vs moral objectivism. Subjectivists argue that morals are fundamentally subjective in nature – akin to personal preferences, although very strongly felt. Let us agree for the sake of argument that they are not the same as simple preferences like flavors or fashion or colors and exclude that comparison from the conversation.

All perceptions of any kind are acquired and processed subjectively. That’s not the question; the question is whether or not it is better, more logical, or even necessary to think and act as if what one is referring to is objective in nature. Even though we all perceive what we call the “outside” world subjectively, I’m sure we’d all agree that it is necessary to think and act as if there is an actual, outside world – even if one is a solipsist. If you do not think and act as if it exists, you are in for a world of hurt.

A couple of other threads here refer to the current trend in some academic circles to consider “engineering rigor”, logic, gender and math part of the so-called “white, heterosexual, patriarchical oppression”; in other words, that such things are also subjective in nature and are largely produced by cultural bias. Link 1. Link 2.

If even the existence of the exterior world can be doubted on the grounds of subjectvism, certainly logic and math, which exist – as far as we can tell – solely in the mind, must be “subjective” in nature. Unless a subjectivist wishes to argue that thoughts can be anything other than subjective in nature, how exactly would they argue that math and logic objectively exist, or are objectively binding for everyone? Why should they be?

I don’t see how that argument can be made. If such abstract models are necessarily subjective in nature, then it follows that “engineering rigor,” which relies on math and logic, is one particular subjective perspective that has been forced on everyone via various building codes and laws. This argument is precisely the same as the argument for moral subjectivism; because something cannot be seen or measured in the exterior world and appears to exist solely in the heart or mind of the observer (which is true of math, logic and morality), then it must be subjective in nature, and must be accepted as such and treated as such.

Would a moral subjectivist be willing to live their life in a society where math and logic are considered subjective? Would they be willing to live in buildings where all features of the construction were left up to the builder’s subjective view of math, logic and engineering rigor? Where people were free to dismantle, change and add on to the structure based on their own subjective views? Exactly how long does one think a building would last if everyone got to change whatever part of it they wanted according to their subjective views? What if someone didn’t like the foundation and just started dismantling it and replacing it with something they subjectively think is better? Would a subjectivist get on a plane or a boat built by engineering subjectivists, or while enroute was being altered by engineering subjectivists?

And yet, the foundation and structure that built and maintains our entire society, informs the social construct and serves as the basis of law, is something moral subjectivists say will survive, thrive and even get better if we embrace moral subjectivism. Would moral subjectivists agree to math and logic subjectivism? To engineering subjectivism? If not, why not? Are they claiming math and logic are objective commodities and universally binding, even though they only exist in the world of mind and are – apparently – capable of being dismissed (by a growing segment) as subjective cultural biases?

Comments
Latemarch @ 61 - we both (I hope!) find the notion of torturing babies for fun horrendous. But that on its own doesn't preclude there being moral systems where this is acceptable, rather it means that we would not want to accept those moral systems. If you are going to show that moral systems necessarily exclude torturing babies for fun, then you have to show that this exclusion must be an inevitable consequence of a moral system being a moral system. I've no idea if that's possible or not.Bob O'H
January 12, 2018
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M62, such a discussion begins to run beyond the proper focus for UD, but if you have concerns, here on (as has already been referenced) may be of help as a 101. Note its link to VJT's earlier discussion, as well as the remarks of Rabbi Boteach and those of Bernard Lewis. It is also noteworthy that Internet Atheist soapbox efforts tend to distort views on the actual core of Judaeo-Christian ethical teachings, a point I addressed here at UD just a few days ago. Observe the gap between the actual teaching and the tendency of the more aggressive objectors to ethical theism to speak as though the Christian faith is little more than the Nazi party at prayers. KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2018
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The whole point is null. Nobody is morally subjective or tolerant. Everyone has strict taboos and requirements. People who CLAIM to be loose and tolerant are either intentionally sowing doubt to ruin civilization, or foolishly and thoughtlessly following the current fashion set by the demonic doubt-sowers.polistra
January 12, 2018
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Barry and WJM do not agree what "objective" morality actually is. Barry won't deal with the Old Testament god's prescriptions, and WJM (who I generally like) won't hold him to account. Can't you see what this topic is ridiculous, even among theists. Stop it.mike1962
January 11, 2018
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@Barry What is morality for if not to help us solve concrete moral problems? If not, what is it for? Please be specific.critical rationalist
January 11, 2018
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After all this time you still don’t have a grasp on the difference between ontology and epistemology. Fail.
And, apparently, you still haven't grasped that It doesn't actually help you, in practice. Nor have you explained how to get around the issue. What's the difference between "I believe X is the right moral thing to do" and "There is objectively morally right thing to do and I believe it is X"? Why should I be any more compelled do X? Because you belief it is objectivity right thing to do? You'll have to excuse me if I don't find that very compelling. The thing you're accusing me of doing? Apparently, you lack the introspection to realize you did it too when you selected a supposed infallible source out of many. And you do it to when decide when to defer to that source. And you do it when you interpret that source. Ontologically speaking, I think there is objective moral knowledge, but not in the sense that you do.critical rationalist
January 11, 2018
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BoB O'H
I’m afraid the answer to “why this set of principles” needs to be something more than “think about it”
Bob, humans have a distinct nature that exists in the objective realm. Among other things, this nature includes the faculty of intelligence, by which we can know what is good, and the power of free will, by which we can do what is good. Because human nature exists as an objective reality, it follows that the morality proper to human nature would also exist as an objective reality.StephenB
January 11, 2018
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KF,
We do not know what the truth value of the proposition is, but we do know it is independent of a major system.
I do agree with this, at least when I am wearing my platonist hat (which is most of the time).daveS
January 11, 2018
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To paraphrase C.S. Lewis: Moral progress “means not just changing, but changing for the better.” (see full quote above @ 45.) Without an interpersonal objective standard there is no such thing as better, no basis for criminal justice or universal human rights. Furthermore, I don’t see how a moral subjectivist has any kind of basis for any kind of rational argument. How am I obligated to give any consideration to someone else’s moral opinions if they are presented by him as just his subjective moral opinions? How do we reach any kind of consensus in a society where there is no kind of objective standard for morality, law and human rights?john_a_designer
January 11, 2018
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DS, I suggest this speaks to the irreducible complexity of Mathematics. We do not know what the truth value of the proposition is, but we do know it is independent of a major system. This suggests that there is a world of mathematics that can be constructed on one alternative and similarly on another, at least on a trial basis. Just as, there is a "flat" space in which triangles sum to 180 degrees and there are other possible spaces in which they sum to different values, the issue is to avoid slipping into different spaces while not recognising it, or using results from one domain to suggest that something specific to another is not really so. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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BO'H & DiEb: The issue is not bare assumptions, it is context and the matter of slipped in, unannounced context change is a significant matter. particularly, when it is used as it so often is, to communicate something that is materially false by changing the sense of a key term or concept. This is a warning flag about how even mathematics can be manipulated to seem to say what it does not. here that parallel lines are at one and the same time in one and the same circumstances parallel and not parallel. That behaviour has to be faced and acknowledged. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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KF, I might have misunderstood your post:
DS, why are undecidables strange to you? KF
What does sounds strange to me is the CH being contingently true. To use Newton's metaphor again, how could different possible worlds have different pebbles on their mathematical beaches?daveS
January 11, 2018
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Bob O'H: Would you accept it if your bank and lenders decide to use a private formulation of math, based on different assumptions and resulting in you having less money and paying more, in order to process your accounts? If not, then all you (and others) are doing is avoiding the point via wordplay. We all act and expect others to act as if these things are objective and universally binding, the ability to imagine alternate systems notwithstanding.William J Murray
January 11, 2018
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jdk, Yes, I should have left out any discussion of physical space above. PS to my #62: What I have in mind is a platonic mathematician investigating various structures, just as a child might investigate the properties of pebbles on a beach (to steal a famous metaphor). She might observe "this geometric structure is Euclidean, while this other one is hyperbolic", or "the cardinality of this set is strictly between that of the integers and reals but that's not true of this other set". There's nothing wrong with working in a system where one assumes that all triangles have an angle sum of 180 degrees (for example), but that assumption does not say anything about what pebbles actually exist on this metaphorical beach.daveS
January 11, 2018
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The question of the formal mathematical truth of the three geometries is different from the question of which geometry best describes a given physical space. That, however, has nothing to do with "self-evidency". That is an empirical question that at least in theory is approachable by means of evidence.jdk
January 11, 2018
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DiEb,
And even for a platonist, both version can be true under different circumstances – similar to various geometries: Euclidian and Minkowski geometry are both true for space…
This is a good point, but I'll see what I can come up with by way of response. Are we talking about physical space? If so, I would say that given a particular point or region in space, there is a particular "true" geometry of that region, and it cannot be simultaneously uniformly Euclidean and hyperbolic. Even for a particular abstract model, the "true" geometry is set. The Cartesian plane with the usual metric is definitely Euclidean everywhere, and the surface of a sphere is not. Similarly, if you consider sets, and choose an arbitrary one, either its cardinality is strictly between that of the integers and reals, or not (according to a platonist, anyway). This should be true regardless of what extra assumptions we attempt to impose regarding the CH.daveS
January 11, 2018
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Bob O'H@57
Latemarch – I think the point is that in mathematics you have to state your assumptions, and that different assumptions lead to different conclusions. I’ve been trying to suggest that the same is true for morals.
So torturing babies for fun. Just someone starting with different assumptions. Does this suggest to you that it might not be true for morals?Latemarch
January 11, 2018
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kf writes,
Yes, we subsequently learned that this is not the only possible abstract space but that is a different issue. KF
No that is not a different issue: that is a centrally important issue. As Bob says at 57, "in mathematics you have to state your assumptions, and ... different assumptions lead to different conclusions." I don't know why this is a difficult point to acknowledge.jdk
January 11, 2018
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KF,
DS, why are undecidables strange to you? KF
They aren't, particularly.daveS
January 11, 2018
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daveS @49:
This is true, but if you are a platonist about mathematics, you can hold that the CH is objectively true (or false). For a platonist, these sets have an objective existence and the question is just whether sets of certain cardinality exist.
And even for a platonist, both version can be true under different circumstances - similar to various geometries: Euclidian and Minkowski geometry are both true for space...DiEb
January 11, 2018
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Latemarch - I think the point is that in mathematics you have to state your assumptions, and that different assumptions lead to different conclusions. I've been trying to suggest that the same is true for morals. The obvious question with respect to objectivity (of morals or maths) is whether the choice of assumptions is objective.Bob O'H
January 11, 2018
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LM, I think it's actually base 4 you intended. 10 = 1 x 4^1 + 0 x 4^0. 2 = 2 x 4^0. Hey we can add: 2 + 2 = 11 11 = 1 x 3^1 + 1 x 3^0. (I used to teach digital technology stuff.) KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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2+2=4 (true) 2+2=10 (also true) Oh! did I forget to tell you that the second equation is in base 4 arithmetic? Similar to the triangle nonsense above. Injecting a non sequitur into the argument to lead astray. (KF is right....objectively right.) And now we're off into arcane math...objective accomplished. So somehow that is supposed to be a serious objection to the OP. Really? Oops Base 4...it's been a while.Latemarch
January 11, 2018
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WJM @ 41 - indeed, see DiEb's comment @ 46. It wouldn't surprised me if some mathematician has tried to develop mathematical system in which these laws don't hold.Bob O'H
January 11, 2018
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JDK, rhetorically loaded, unannounced equivocation in real world contexts. The normal use of "parallel" is in the context of a certain kind of space. This is not the first time that this one has come up at UD. I resorted to establishing an abstract plane to show that there is nothing wrong with the traditional understanding. Yes, we subsequently learned that this is not the only possible abstract space but that is a different issue. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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In a Darwinian world objectivity could very well get in the way of your objective. :cool:ET
January 11, 2018
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DS, why are undecidables strange to you? KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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kf, it is not a "trick" to point out that three different versions of the parallel postulate produce three different geometries. All your comment did was to set up the conditions for a Euclidean plane, and then show that in that space parallel lines had certain properties consistent with one of those three possiible premises. You did not address at all my point that other beginning premises produce other geometries. It is not "self evident" that one of the three premises is true and the other two are not.I fact, from a the point of view of math and logic, asking which is true is a meaningless question.jdk
January 11, 2018
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DiEb,
You can postulate that the CH is true, and get a working set theory, or you can postulate that the CH is false, and get a working set theory, too.
This is true, but if you are a platonist about mathematics, you can hold that the CH is objectively true (or false). For a platonist, these sets have an objective existence and the question is just whether sets of certain cardinality exist.daveS
January 11, 2018
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KF
BO’H & WJM: objective truths are those amenable to more or less credible and reliable — as opposed to strictly infallible — warrant.
Defining objective as something that is not consistent with the definition of objective may play into your personal view of the world, but it doesn't help in determining if there are objective moral truths.JSmith
January 11, 2018
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