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Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?

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One of the recurring themes on this blog is moral subjectivism vs moral objectivism. Subjectivists argue that morals are fundamentally subjective in nature – akin to personal preferences, although very strongly felt. Let us agree for the sake of argument that they are not the same as simple preferences like flavors or fashion or colors and exclude that comparison from the conversation.

All perceptions of any kind are acquired and processed subjectively. That’s not the question; the question is whether or not it is better, more logical, or even necessary to think and act as if what one is referring to is objective in nature. Even though we all perceive what we call the “outside” world subjectively, I’m sure we’d all agree that it is necessary to think and act as if there is an actual, outside world – even if one is a solipsist. If you do not think and act as if it exists, you are in for a world of hurt.

A couple of other threads here refer to the current trend in some academic circles to consider “engineering rigor”, logic, gender and math part of the so-called “white, heterosexual, patriarchical oppression”; in other words, that such things are also subjective in nature and are largely produced by cultural bias. Link 1. Link 2.

If even the existence of the exterior world can be doubted on the grounds of subjectvism, certainly logic and math, which exist – as far as we can tell – solely in the mind, must be “subjective” in nature. Unless a subjectivist wishes to argue that thoughts can be anything other than subjective in nature, how exactly would they argue that math and logic objectively exist, or are objectively binding for everyone? Why should they be?

I don’t see how that argument can be made. If such abstract models are necessarily subjective in nature, then it follows that “engineering rigor,” which relies on math and logic, is one particular subjective perspective that has been forced on everyone via various building codes and laws. This argument is precisely the same as the argument for moral subjectivism; because something cannot be seen or measured in the exterior world and appears to exist solely in the heart or mind of the observer (which is true of math, logic and morality), then it must be subjective in nature, and must be accepted as such and treated as such.

Would a moral subjectivist be willing to live their life in a society where math and logic are considered subjective? Would they be willing to live in buildings where all features of the construction were left up to the builder’s subjective view of math, logic and engineering rigor? Where people were free to dismantle, change and add on to the structure based on their own subjective views? Exactly how long does one think a building would last if everyone got to change whatever part of it they wanted according to their subjective views? What if someone didn’t like the foundation and just started dismantling it and replacing it with something they subjectively think is better? Would a subjectivist get on a plane or a boat built by engineering subjectivists, or while enroute was being altered by engineering subjectivists?

And yet, the foundation and structure that built and maintains our entire society, informs the social construct and serves as the basis of law, is something moral subjectivists say will survive, thrive and even get better if we embrace moral subjectivism. Would moral subjectivists agree to math and logic subjectivism? To engineering subjectivism? If not, why not? Are they claiming math and logic are objective commodities and universally binding, even though they only exist in the world of mind and are – apparently – capable of being dismissed (by a growing segment) as subjective cultural biases?

Comments
KF, I believe I agree with the first part of your post; the question is ontological. And I'm not at all concerned with whether humans, for example, will ever be able to resolve the question of whether the CH is true, false, or has no objective truth value.
Onward, even if this turns out to become a generally known undecidable this leads only to possible worlds in which it holds and others in which it does not.
Hm. In this case, I take it the CH would be a contingently true mathematical proposition, which is rather mind-blowing. If the CH were true in possible world A and false in possible world B, how would A and B differ?daveS
January 11, 2018
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@daveS: The Continuum Hypothesis is independent of ZFC set theory. So, the statement
So far, there is no clear consensus on whether this statement is true, false, or whether it simply has no answer.
does not make sense. You can postulate that the CH is true, and get a working set theory, or you can postulate that the CH is false, and get a working set theory, too. It is indeed a similar situation to the parallel postulate: over centuries, mathematicians tried to prove this postulate using the original four postulates of geometry, just to realize that it is independent from them: assuming the postulate, you get Euclidian geometry, choosing another version, you get something other which will work well, too.DiEb
January 11, 2018
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Let me just toss this quote from CS Lewis, Mere Christianity in here as possibly clarifying.
There are two reasons for saying it belongs to the same class as mathematics. The first is, as I said in the first chapter, that though there are differences between the moral ideas of one time or country and those of another, the differences are not really very great — not nearly so great as most people imagine — and you can recognize the same lay running through them all: whereas mere conventions, like the rule of the road of the kinds or clothes people wear, may differ to any extent. The other reason is this. When you think about these differences between the morality of one people and another, do you think that the morality of one people is ever better or worse than that of another? Have any of the changes been improvements? If not, then of course there could never be any moral progress. Progress means not just changing, but changing for the better. If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring civilized morality to savage morality, or Christian morality to Nazi morality. In fact, of course, we all do believe that some moralities are better than others. We do believe that some of the people who tried to change the moral ideas of their own age were what we would call Reformers or Pioneers — people who understood morality better than their neighbors did. Very well then. The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other. But the standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people think, and that some people’s ideas get nearer to that real Right than others. Or put it this way. If your moral ideas can be truer, and those of the Nazis less true, there must be something — some Real Morality — for them to be true about. The reason why your idea of New York can be truer of less true than mine is that New York is a real place, existing quite apart from what either of us thinks. If when each of us said ‘New York’ each means merely ‘The town I am imagining in my own head’, how could one of us have truer ideas than the other? There would be no question of truth or falsehood at all.
Latemarch
January 11, 2018
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BO'H & WJM: objective truths are those amenable to more or less credible and reliable -- as opposed to strictly infallible -- warrant. There is abundant basis to see that many moral principles pass such a test. We have been more interested in things beyond this, things that can serve as plumb-line tests that help create that sort of warrant. For instance the case of the kidnapped, violated, murdered child destroyed for perverted pleasure practically begs us to draw out principles of human dignity, rights, duties, neighbourliness, community and more. The reluctance of ever so many critics to seriously engage in dialogue on such a case speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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DS, Insofar as the CH asserts a claim as to what is or is not, it is propositional. Its accuracy in describing reality or failing to do so is an ontological matter and is hopefully amenable to our discovery at some point. Our frustrating position in Math theorising is an epistemological one. These are categorically distinct. Onward, even if this turns out to become a generally known undecidable this leads only to possible worlds in which it holds and others in which it does not. It certainly is not a SET, and it is currently in the world of unknowns. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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JDK, kindly read my comment. The trick of changing the space is a case of injecting manipulative ambiguity to create a false perception. For one who has the background to understand, parallel lines properly understood will not converge or diverge. And, patent absurdity is the direct result of attempted denial. The known rhetorical context for the switch the space trick, is to create a false perception that here we have a failed self-evident truth, so discard the notion. That is further generally used in specific support of subjectivism and relativism, an issue that is highly germane to an OP with title: "Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?" KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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Bob O'H said:
I’m looking for some justification for why certain moral principles are objective.
What is the justification for accepting the Law of Identity and the Law of Non-Contradiction as objective? What is the justification for accepting basic math principles as objective?William J Murray
January 11, 2018
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KF (and anyone else interested), The Continuum Hypotheses states:
There is no set whose cardinality is strictly between that of the integers and the real numbers.
So far, there is no clear consensus on whether this statement is true, false, or whether it simply has no answer. My question is: Does the CH have an objective truth value? You don't need to say whether it actually is true or false, just whether there is an objective truth value "waiting to be found". (to KF: I believe this has come up in our discussions before, where we have both noted, among other things, that the CH is independent of ZFC.)daveS
January 11, 2018
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kf writes,
F/N: Notice how the angle-sum triangle or parallel lines postulate is wrenched into an illustration of subjectivity and relativism?
Notice how the OP is about math and logic, and about, among other things, the role that "self evident truths" play. I think my point was quite relevant to the OP, not "wrenched in". FWIWjdk
January 11, 2018
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Seversky said:
From my perspective, no. Apples and oranges. Math and logic are “languages” for describing and modeling what is. Morality is about what a subject thinks ought to be. It’s the is/ought gap again.
Actually, math and logic are models that recognize fundamental, Self-Evident Truths that cannot be proven by those models (because the SETs form the basis of those evaluatory models), and are each used to ascertain the truth-value of statements and formulas in order to provide oughts - how one ought build a plane, how one ought to balance their checkbook, etc., to arrive at a correct answer. Objective morality begins with SETs and uses those to inform moral models that describe how we ought correctly behave in future situations.
Objective reality is what we assume continues to exist even when there is no conscious, intelligent agent to perceive or conceive it.
Not according to some quantum theorists, including several of the founders of quantum theory. But we'll table that for another thread and move on.
According to cosmology, this Universe existed for billions of years before self-aware and, yes, moralistic beings like ourselves emerged. Do we assume that the moral prescriptions for how human beings ought to behave were floating around out there for all that time just waiting for us to come along or could it be that they appeared when we did because we developed them?
Were the concepts of math and logic floating around all that time waiting for humans, or could it be they appeared when we did because we developed them? I thought you said were were talking about apples and oranges? Math, logic and morality are all abstract concepts and models; they all deal with real, objective-world situations; they all in some way describe how we ought proceed in various aspects of our lives; we all act as if all three are objectively binding (or else we wouldn't try to impose our moral views on others or expect them to behave according to our moral views). The ONLY reason, IMO, some insist morality is subjective is because they don't like where the concept of objective morality leads. I wonder if those who consider math a form of white, patriarchical oppression would mind if they were charged $1000 for a couple of sodas because the cashier used his own, subjective math to add the cost up? Or if their bank used their own form of math? I wonder if they would submit to a judge's personal logic in a court of law?William J Murray
January 11, 2018
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kf - I'm looking for some justification for why certain moral principles are objective. So far all I've been told is "think about it" and "we've thought about it". I'm afraid that sounds like it is subjective at its core. But if morals are objective, there has to be something more. Why is "quasi-infinite worth of individuals" necessarily foundational? Could one not take the Golden Rule as foundational (and from that derive "quasi-infinite worth of individuals"), for example? By saying that you have two foundational principles, you are implying that there is no other way that objective moral principles can be derived. But how do you demonstrate that?Bob O'H
January 11, 2018
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PS: More on the consensus game: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454456/wilfrid-laurier-university-incident-anti-speech-disease-spreads-canadian-colleges PPS: Looks like that edit window is shrinking bit by bit.kairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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BO'H: Kindly, remember context going back some weeks now, for example this OP (BTW, this highlights Math) and here more recently. I have here briefly outlined a context of argument that ties to the inescapable moral government we face in reasoning -- something that is implicit in your responses, that we ought to be governed by duty to truth, sound reason, prudence, fairness etc. Such cannot be delusional, on pain of reduction to grand delusion and/or the soft nihilism of manipulation makes "consensus" [cf here today for where that seems to be taking Google], or "truth" or "right" or "rights" etc. We can probe for why, and two things become obvious, an inherent dignity or quasi-infinite worth of individuals who are as we are, and the readily confirmed fact that we need community for lifelong thriving. So, what directly exploits, manipulates or undermines sound community can be recognised as wrongful. Which is hardly news, Kant's arguments/postulates run along these lines and the same goes back to antiquity. Similarly, the invitation to ponder cases is in effect saying, see for yourself. The real question is, what sort of world-root best makes sense of all of this. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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kf - I'm afraid the answer to "why this set of principles" needs to be something more than "think about it" if you want to assert that morals are objective. You're making the same mistake that Barry did, except that now I'm the arbiter of objective morality, not goodusername?Bob O'H
January 11, 2018
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mike 1962 @ 23: The killing of women, children, and babies is considered moral by a/mat liberals whenever their favorite politician slaughters families, villages, towns, cities, and even countries... all in the name of peace, of course. Such hypocrites.Truth Will Set You Free
January 11, 2018
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Seversky @18
WJM: Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?
Seversky: From my perspective, no. Apples and oranges. Math and logic are “languages” for describing and modeling what is. Morality is about what a subject thinks ought to be. It’s the is/ought gap again.
Is that true? It seems to me that math and logic also tell us what ought to be. For instance, if we know two variables of a triangle with a right angle, the Pythagoras Theorem tells us what the third variable ought to be. Similarly, logic informs us which conclusion ought to be and which ought not to be. Laws tell us what ought to happen.Origenes
January 11, 2018
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PS: HT Wiki, four forms, three being main, the last as recently highlighted:
1] Universalisability: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." 2] Dignity of Morally Governed Creatures: "Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end." (This is v. close to the GR, and it anchors the sustainability principle, once we admit the legitimacy of the claims of future, as yet unborn generations, posterity.) 3] Cosmic Legislator: "Act as if the maxims of your action were to become through your will a universal law of nature." Or, "Thus the third practical principle follows [from the first two] as the ultimate condition of their harmony with practical reason: the idea of the will of every rational being as a universally legislating will." (In short, do not act as a chaos lord.) 4] Community of Legislators form: "Act according to maxims of a universally legislating member of a merely possible kingdom of ends."
kairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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BO'H: Try to deny the relevant premises and see where it rapidly leads. Note, the three other logically equivalent forms of the CI as you do so. BTW, the CI (never mind Kant's irritation on the point) is actually closely related to the GR, so much so that I sometimes have spoken to the GR/CI in the context of discussing sustainability of development. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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kf @ 27 - I assume you are referring to your comment @ 26. You suggest two implicit premises, but why chose these two premises? Are they the only set of premises that would also provide a moral system? I'm not asking you to justify that these premises form the basis of a moral system, BTW. Rather, I want to know why these premises, rather than (for example) a set of premises that include the Golden Rule.Bob O'H
January 11, 2018
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M-62, kindly, inform us, why it was written that for the hardness of men's hearts, certain things were regulated? What is the significance here of the paradigm case of divorce regulations i/l/o Mal 2:16, "I hate divorce"? In that light, what of the sort of concerns we may find here on in context, at 101 level -- including how can one deal with hereditary blood feud warfare with consequences of great moment in the stakes? How could the circumstances faced by statesmen such as Churchill, Roosevelt and Truman c. 1942 - 45 in nuke threshold warfare or that faced by Petain and Haig from February 1916 further illustrate the matter? KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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BO'H: I just outlined a framework, with the further cross-check of self-evident moral truths. Tell us, kindly: is the following moral claim (regrettably, a real-world case) true or false, why:
It is wrong, evil, wicked to kidnap, bind and gag, sexually assault, torture and violate then murder a young child for one's lustful pleasure.
Let us hear. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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PS: The same distinct identity leads to logic and reasoning. We as reasoners find ourselves inescapably duty-bound to truth, soundness in reasoning and the like to the point where it is an implicit premise of objections above that we should surrender our views due to the clever correctives presented. Of course, the subjectivist or relativist hyperskepticism parasites off that normies, Eloi and sheeple will not spot that pervasive duty AND the implicit agenda-serving exception. Thus, we are already well along the way to the Categorical Imperative in maxim universalisability form. where the implicit premise is that human life or similar morally governed rationally and responsibly free beings are intrinsically quasi-infinite in value as an axiomatic premise or postulate. Second implicit premise, we are inherently social and need communities of common interest and mutual support to thrive from Fallopian tubes to golden years. Thus something disintegrative to community if universalised can be detected as ruinous and exploitive parasitical evil. We see further that assigning the moral sense termed conscience to delusion utterly undermines rationality by setting grand delusion loose and soft nihilism of might and manipulation making right etc in its train. Leading to the plumbline test of Barry's challenge above.kairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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Barry @ 20 -
GUN
So that’s all that’s meant by objective morality?
There you go with the crap again. You know for a certain fact that statement is not true, but you can’t seem to stop yourself.
Are you suggesting that the standard for something to be objectively true is if GoodUserName is certain it is true? I can see how that would make things easier, but somehow I doubt that that's what you are suggesting. To come back to the comparison with mathematics, if I give you a statement, how do you determine that it objectively morally correct? Mathematics has set procedures for this, but what are the equivalents for morals? "Ask someone if they are certain that it is morally correct" doesn't seem right.Bob O'H
January 11, 2018
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F/N: Notice how the angle-sum triangle or parallel lines postulate is wrenched into an illustration of subjectivity and relativism? Yes. By taking terms out of context, injecting ambiguities then using that without proper notice to produce apparent contradictions. The classical parallel lines postulate comes up in the context of a naturally obvious case of an abstract 2 or 3 dimensional space with certain properties. That space is a context that is implicit but can be made explicit. For instance, we can extend distinct identity, W = {A|~A} into recognition of two-ness (with one-ness and no-thing-ness being already implicitly present). From this the von Neumann construction can get to the naturals and extensions such as the surreals game can yield negatives then continuuum etc. Then go to algebra, x a real, with i*x a rotation such that i*i*x = -x. We now have an unambiguous definition of the plane due to algebraic vectors, known as complex numbers. and can define an origin O and polar axis Ox, with orthogonal axis i*x, and label this y for convenience. Now, observe a generic equation for a straight line in the abstract 2-d planar "Euclidean" space extended to incorporate co-ordinate geometry: y = m*x + c, m a slope term and c a y-intercept. All of this is to sketch an exploration to bring out a necessary property. Set m = M, a fixed value, and let c be for one line C_1 and for another a distinct C_2. At each point along Ox, we will have points along curves 1 and 2 of fixed, uniform separation. Thus, for any value of x we can reach, the two lines will neither converge or diverge; they are parallel, and that is immediately and necessarily true to one able to understand, on pain of absurdities. Of course, far fewer understand algebra and complex numbers than can grasp geometry. So, we see how subjectivist manipulaton of an objective abstract realm of thought leads to the perception that objective or necessary or self-evident truth have been fatally undermined. Now, the objectors above, on long experience, know or should full well know the above. What does this tell us about what is going on and where the agenda is headed, and how it manipulates and misleads us? I submit, a lot. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2018
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What about Yahweh ordering the killing of women and children and babies? Whatever the True Morality is, it can't be contained in the Old Testament. Barry, if you're gonna have any moral authority, you gotta come clean. WJM agrees with this, I know he does.mike1962
January 10, 2018
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j_a_d, you don't, 'try to avoid getting involved', in anything here. Will you now post a correction, as I sometimes do, pointing out your false modesty?rvb8
January 10, 2018
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I try to avoid getting involved in discussions or debates with any of our regular interlocutors because I don’t believe they are being intellectually or ethically honest. The logic here is really very basic and straightforward: If there are no true interpersonal moral standards or obligations how can we trust anything anyone says or asserts? I don’t think that we can. To have an honest discussion or debate you need some kind of interpersonal, or “transcendent,” standard of truth and honesty-- even if it’s a traditional or some kind of “conventional” standard. Why would I trust somebody else’s subjective standard for honesty and truth when he starts out by arguing there is no standard of truth or honesty?john_a_designer
January 10, 2018
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GUN
So that’s all that’s meant by objective morality?
There you go with the crap again. You know for a certain fact that statement is not true, but you can't seem to stop yourself. We were talking about whether you knew the right answer to a moral question. And you did, after first stating you did not even know what that means. Then you added to your error by lying about what we were talking about. Good heavens man. The text is right up there. If you're going to lie at least try to make it convincing.Barry Arrington
January 10, 2018
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Barry,
So you do know what it means to give a “right” answer to a morality question. Now having established that you are full of crap, we can safely disregard pretty much everything else you have to say.
So that’s all that’s meant by objective morality? In that case I trust that we can disregard all the years of prior posts claiming that materialism entails subjective morality, and we won't be seeing any such claims in the future. That is unless you're full of crap.goodusername
January 10, 2018
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Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?
From my perspective, no. Apples and oranges. Math and logic are "languages" for describing and modeling what is. Morality is about what a subject thinks ought to be. It's the is/ought gap again. Objective reality is what we assume continues to exist even when there is no conscious, intelligent agent to perceive or conceive it. According to cosmology, this Universe existed for billions of years before self-aware and, yes, moralistic beings like ourselves emerged. Do we assume that the moral prescriptions for how human beings ought to behave were floating around out there for all that time just waiting for us to come along or could it be that they appeared when we did because we developed them?Seversky
January 10, 2018
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