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Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?

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One of the recurring themes on this blog is moral subjectivism vs moral objectivism. Subjectivists argue that morals are fundamentally subjective in nature – akin to personal preferences, although very strongly felt. Let us agree for the sake of argument that they are not the same as simple preferences like flavors or fashion or colors and exclude that comparison from the conversation.

All perceptions of any kind are acquired and processed subjectively. That’s not the question; the question is whether or not it is better, more logical, or even necessary to think and act as if what one is referring to is objective in nature. Even though we all perceive what we call the “outside” world subjectively, I’m sure we’d all agree that it is necessary to think and act as if there is an actual, outside world – even if one is a solipsist. If you do not think and act as if it exists, you are in for a world of hurt.

A couple of other threads here refer to the current trend in some academic circles to consider “engineering rigor”, logic, gender and math part of the so-called “white, heterosexual, patriarchical oppression”; in other words, that such things are also subjective in nature and are largely produced by cultural bias. Link 1. Link 2.

If even the existence of the exterior world can be doubted on the grounds of subjectvism, certainly logic and math, which exist – as far as we can tell – solely in the mind, must be “subjective” in nature. Unless a subjectivist wishes to argue that thoughts can be anything other than subjective in nature, how exactly would they argue that math and logic objectively exist, or are objectively binding for everyone? Why should they be?

I don’t see how that argument can be made. If such abstract models are necessarily subjective in nature, then it follows that “engineering rigor,” which relies on math and logic, is one particular subjective perspective that has been forced on everyone via various building codes and laws. This argument is precisely the same as the argument for moral subjectivism; because something cannot be seen or measured in the exterior world and appears to exist solely in the heart or mind of the observer (which is true of math, logic and morality), then it must be subjective in nature, and must be accepted as such and treated as such.

Would a moral subjectivist be willing to live their life in a society where math and logic are considered subjective? Would they be willing to live in buildings where all features of the construction were left up to the builder’s subjective view of math, logic and engineering rigor? Where people were free to dismantle, change and add on to the structure based on their own subjective views? Exactly how long does one think a building would last if everyone got to change whatever part of it they wanted according to their subjective views? What if someone didn’t like the foundation and just started dismantling it and replacing it with something they subjectively think is better? Would a subjectivist get on a plane or a boat built by engineering subjectivists, or while enroute was being altered by engineering subjectivists?

And yet, the foundation and structure that built and maintains our entire society, informs the social construct and serves as the basis of law, is something moral subjectivists say will survive, thrive and even get better if we embrace moral subjectivism. Would moral subjectivists agree to math and logic subjectivism? To engineering subjectivism? If not, why not? Are they claiming math and logic are objective commodities and universally binding, even though they only exist in the world of mind and are – apparently – capable of being dismissed (by a growing segment) as subjective cultural biases?

Comments
WJM @105 --
Unless one agrees that evil exists, one cannot have a rational debate about morality.
In what sense exactly does evil exist?LarTanner
January 17, 2018
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Bob O'H
Now, how do we distinguish self evident truths from indoctrination?
You don't unless you are open to questioning all "self-evident moral truths". Which is the process that was used to throw out other "self-evident truths" like blacks are inferior, women do not have the intellectual and emotional stability to have the vote, and homosexuality is not natural and a sin. If it is truly a "truth" it will always pass a rational, logical, evidence based examination.JSmith
January 17, 2018
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Bob O'H asks:
Now, how do we distinguish self evident truths from indoctrination?
Self-evident truths are statements which are necessary to recognize as true or else reasoning about the subject cannot ensue. If you deny the principles of identity and non-contradiction, it is impossible to have a rational conversation regardless of any beliefs you have been indoctrinated with, because we cannot hold any of the words to have identifiable, non-contradictory meaning or value. Unless one agrees that evil exists, one cannot have a rational debate about morality. Etc.William J Murray
January 17, 2018
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KF,
DS, I did not try to prove per deductions from non-question-begging premises that an equation is false. I showed that a common sense tick-off process would land very quickly in absurdity, illustrating in a way that instructs understanding — a very different thing.
What's the difference between this and a reductio proof? It looks like you have shown that 2 + 3 = 6 leads to an absurd conclusion. Therefore 2 + 3 = 6 is false, hence 2 + 3 ≠ 6.daveS
January 17, 2018
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BO'H: That was already shown and explained. If you disagree with what I said on the distinction between the two, kindly specify just what the disagreement is and why you have it. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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DS, I did not try to prove per deductions from non-question-begging premises that an equation is false. I showed that a common sense tick-off process would land very quickly in absurdity, illustrating in a way that instructs understanding -- a very different thing. Similarly that nothing would join with nothing to result in something is absurd is a truth we intuit, not assume or prove; yes, that too is self-evident. The SET in focus was something we can see on our fingers: 2 + 3 = 5. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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BO'H: Given that reductio's are part of this, for argument acceptance is not really good enough. Do you think that 2 +3 = 5 could ever fail in this or another possible world, or that there was ever a time when it did not hold? That is, is it a necessary truth? [We can I believe presume understanding.] Then, is it a truth that if denied lands immediately in blatant absurdity? No need for grand abstruse reduction arguments? KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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KF, You have sketched a proof of the statement 2 + 3 ≠ 6 above. As with any proof, it rests on premises, including our acceptance of 0 ≠ 1 and that certain manipulations of these stick models preserve (in)equality of natural numbers. I agree that 0 ≠ 1 is a self-evident truth. So is the premise that subtraction of an equal number of sticks from two groups preserves (in)equality in N. Whether 2 + 3 ≠ 6 is a self-evident truth, I'm not sure. It follows from other self-evident truths, in any case.daveS
January 17, 2018
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kf - I'm happy to accept, fir the purpose of this discussion, the existence of self evident truths. Now, how do we distinguish self evident truths from indoctrination?Bob O'H
January 17, 2018
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DS, Moral SET's require a different level of understanding and world-awareness, and though their presentation could doubtless be rendered in some symbolic or graphical form, that does not give any more demonstration; indeed it is likely such would be far more complex and abstruse than a description in words. That would not do anything more than complicate matters. I chose the arithmetic case precisely because it is so directly easy to illustrate. Can you acknowledge that we see here a case of SET, in this arithmetic example? KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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BO'H: before we try to fly, let us crawl first: do you accept that we have shown several SET's and so the set SET is non-empty? And, the self-evidence of certain basic math facts is more certain than the elaborate axiomatic and proof frameworks that are adduced to try to eliminate. I did not say that you cannot contrive a framework that would imply a SET, just that such would be less plausible than the SET per direct insight and absurdity on attempted denial. Next, such a framework will necessarily involve the priority of distinct identity and its corollaries; this particular case is one where proofs are impossible, this is prior to any proof we may construct. That, too, is involved. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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kf @ 94 - I'm still not seeing the connection to morality. And for arithmetical SETs, we actually have proofs (thanks to Russel & Whitehead, we even have a theorem that proves that 1+1=2). So self-evidence isn't even needed their truth can be demonstrated!Bob O'H
January 17, 2018
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Hm. Is there any equivalent of these stick/set diagrams for moral SETs?daveS
January 17, 2018
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BO'H: We gave specific examples. The criterion they pass shows how establishing or coming to awareness of a SET categorically differs from how one may be brainwashed to believe a notion. One comes to recognise a SET by examination and reflection on experience driven insights, then cross-checks for the import of attempted denial. No patent absurdity, no SET. Such absurdities come in various flavours but the catastrophic impact on mind or on something of like order shows that something has gone drastically wrong. When I have seen indoctrination [whether communist or cultic], invariably, there is exclusion of seeking to understand and to address oh what if we were to try to take a different view. As for moral SET's, let us establish the relatively easy case first. Try 2 + 3 = 5, stick representation of the set-joining operation of a two-set and a three-set, each in turn based on distinct identity of let's imagine sticks or the like: || + ||| --> ||||| Can you successfully deny that the result is and necessarily is a five-set? Say, assert a six set: || + ||| --> |||||| Striking off in 1:1 correspondence, successively on LHS and RHS: || + ||| --> |||||| Or, 0 = 1, absurd. This is just one example. And it brings out the issue of patent absurdity. A stubborn child may insist that he has not got his sums wrong, but will be in the position of arguing that nothing is the same as something. Oops, that is what was being argued recently in trying to pull a cosmos out of nothing. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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Ah, OK, Luckily I can work out what SET means. But how do these relate to distinguishing between indoctrination and self evidence truths? Apparently objective morals are based on self-evident truths, but none of what you have suggested are self-evident truths relate to morality, at least as far as I can see.Bob O'H
January 17, 2018
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BO'H: Each of the claims is a SET. Distinct identity is intuitively recognised by us from awareness of self [A] and not self, rest of world [~A]. W = {A|~A}. This is a clean dichotomy. We see A is itself, law of identity. No x in W is both A AND ~A, law of non-contradiction. Similarly, any x in W will be A X-OR ~A, law of excluded middle. The abbreviations are fairly common. These are implicitly in use just to communicate textually or orally etc, so any attempt to prove will be futile. But to try to deny ends in absurdity also, implicitly relying on them. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2018
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kf - how do you get from those (a) being conscious, errors existing, 2 + 3 = 5, our distinct identity, and A vs ~A, to three TLAs (LOI, LNC, LEM, whatever they are)? I'm afraid I still don't follow you.Bob O'H
January 16, 2018
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BO'H: Pardon, but I don't believe you at this point. Indoctrination aka brainwashing is the opposite of an invitation to reasoning and to examination on claims, contexts, significance, what happens when one tries to deny a claim. The above sets out to do that rational examination. We can start with, if one is conscious, that bare fact is self-evident, indeed who tries to deny this faces: and who is aware of trying to deny it? Likewise, this illustrates how error exists is self-evident also, as the exercise immediately has that result, just as the analysis on E and asserting ~E meaning it would be an error to assert that error exists shows this is undeniable. Likewise 2 + 3 = 5 is self-evident. Similarly, from consciousness, we are aware of our distinct identity so we know A vs ~A, thus world W = {A|~A} thence the triple first principles of right reason as immediate and self-evident corollaries: LOI, LNC, LEM. Kindly, explain to us how you could even conceive of such as attempted brainwashing under false colours of education. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2018
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kf @ 87, 88 - sorry, that's not helpful at all. I still don't know how one can distinguish between indoctrination and self evidence truths.Bob O'H
January 16, 2018
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BO'H: This may be helpful:
Excerpted chapter summary, on Subjectivism, Relativism, and Emotivism, in Doing Ethics 3rd Edn, by Lewis Vaughn, W W Norton, 2012. [Also see here and here.] Clipping: . . . Subjective relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one approves of it. A person’s approval makes the action right. This doctrine (as well as cultural relativism) is in stark contrast to moral objectivism, the view that some moral principles are valid for everyone.. Subjective relativism, though, has some troubling implications. It implies that each person is morally infallible and that individuals can never have a genuine moral disagreement Cultural relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one’s culture approves of it. The argument for this doctrine is based on the diversity of moral judgments among cultures: because people’s judgments about right and wrong differ from culture to culture, right and wrong must be relative to culture, and there are no objective moral principles. This argument is defective, however, because the diversity of moral views does not imply that morality is relative to cultures. In addition, the alleged diversity of basic moral standards among cultures may be only apparent, not real. Societies whose moral judgments conflict may be differing not over moral principles but over nonmoral facts. Some think that tolerance is entailed by cultural relativism. But there is no necessary connection between tolerance and the doctrine. Indeed, the cultural relativist cannot consistently advocate tolerance while maintaining his relativist standpoint. To advocate tolerance is to advocate an objective moral value. But if tolerance is an objective moral value, then cultural relativism must be false, because it says that there are no objective moral values. Like subjective relativism, cultural relativism has some disturbing consequences. It implies that cultures are morally infallible, that social reformers can never be morally right, that moral disagreements between individuals in the same culture amount to arguments over whether they disagree with their culture, that other cultures cannot be legitimately criticized, and that moral progress is impossible. Emotivism is the view that moral utterances are neither true nor false but are expressions of emotions or attitudes. It leads to the conclusion that people can disagree only in attitude, not in beliefs. People cannot disagree over the moral facts, because there are no moral facts. Emotivism also implies that presenting reasons in support of a moral utterance is a matter of offering nonmoral facts that can influence someone’s attitude. It seems that any nonmoral facts will do, as long as they affect attitudes. Perhaps the most far-reaching implication of emotivism is that nothing is actually good or bad. There simply are no properties of goodness and badness. There is only the expression of favorable or unfavorable emotions or attitudes toward something.
KFkairosfocus
January 15, 2018
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BO'H: SET's are such that once one of sufficient experience and insight to understand what is being said sees them, s/he will realise they are true and are necessarily true on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. Patent, as no detailed stepwise abstruse analysis is required to carry out a reductio ad absurdum. For example 2 + 3 = 5 is SET, but 1,932 x 965 = 1,864,380 is not though the latter is necessarily true. Likewise, it is self-evident that a conscious individual cannot be deceived that s/he is conscious as a bare fact, though of course many things in that consciousness may be in error. Where, that error exists is also SET. Often but nor always the absurdity will be an immediate contradiction or a self-referential inconsistency multiplied by an infinite regress. On moral truths, the absurdity comes about typically by radically and instantly undermining human dignity and fundamental quasi-infinite value or by effectively dehumanising the other, or by pointing to utter breakdown of community or by reducing our rational life to grand delusion. It is self evidently true that we are under moral government, and that it is evil to kidnap, bind, sexually violate and murder a young child for pleasure. This latter is an instructive case that then allows us to draw out a lot of key moral principles that have far wider utility. Such cases are not question-begging, but are not subject to proof from even more plausible first points only. They would be more certain than the claimed proof -- why I would see more sense in using an instructive SET to draw out broadly applicable principles. For instance, distinct identity exists and has as corollaries LOI, LNC, LEM, and these cannot be proved as proofs would rely implicitly on them. KFkairosfocus
January 15, 2018
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No. A self evident truth is not indoctrination. If it is was self-evident, no indoctrination would be needed.
But how can we distinguish between indoctrination and self-evident truth?
Different aspects of objective morality cannot clash. There is only one objective morality.
Fair enough, I think. But given there are several moralities, how do we know which one is the objective one? (yes, I now I've basically asked the same question twice)Bob O'H
January 15, 2018
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I find that approach problematic: are you sure what you think is a “self evident truth” is actually true? Could a “self evident truth” actually just something that was ingrained into you from an early age?
No. A self evident truth is not indoctrination. If it is was self-evident, no indoctrination would be needed. Do you need to be indoctrinated in order to know that a whole pie weighs more than any one it its slices? SB: What happens when unit A socially constructs one basic morality and unit B constructs another one? All the basic issues are non-negotiable.
I think they are negotiated, in one way or another. Whether it is by democratic, legal processes, or others (e.g. civil war).
The first two parts of your answer are incorrect. The last part is correct. War is not negotiation. Subjective morality always leads to a war of all against all, followed by tyranny.
This will, of course, still be a problem if both groups think their morals are objective.
Different aspects of objective morality cannot clash. There is only one objective morality. There are many subjective moralities. Only subjective moralities or subjective moralities mistakenly perceived as objective moralities can clash.StephenB
January 14, 2018
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We have an investigator (subject) and the object of the investigation (objective). It is not always necessary to “think about it,” since self evident truths do not require any thought.
I find that approach problematic: are you sure what you think is a "self evident truth" is actually true? Could a "self evident truth" actually just something that was ingrained into you from an early age? I think it might be similar to language: what is that papery thing I read? "a book" you would say, without thinking. But 'kirja', "buch', or 'bog' would all also be right: they are just in a different language. The only reason you think "book" not "kirja" is because you learned English as a young child.
What happens when unit A socially constructs one basic morality and unit B constructs another one? All the basic issues are non-negotiable.
I think they are negotiated, in one way or another. Whether it is by democratic, legal processes, or others (e.g. civil war). This will, of course, still be a problem if both groups think their morals are objective.Bob O'H
January 14, 2018
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Bob
I’m not sure that’s a good answer, as it really just moves the problem from “what is good” to “what is the nature of a thing”. Even worse, if it’s in the nature of some people to torture children for fun, then you’re saying that that is good. I don’t think that’s the conclusion you’re looking for. ????
Humans can pervert their individual natures by ignoring the moral code that was designed for them. It is not consistent with the nature of a human being to become an alcoholic, but habitual drinking can damage that nature. In like fashion, one can learn to be a sadist.
You give some examples of what is considered good, but are they morally good, and are they the only ways to build a good moral system? For example, it may be good to survive and live in communities, but does that mean that we can be nasty towards other communities? And if they are, why these choices of “fundamental goods”, which don’t include the Golden rule, for example?
From the basic good, we can derive the morality. Morality is a code that is based on (what is known to be, or for others, what is perceived to be) good for or bad for humans. If, for example, it is good and moral for humans to live in and form communities, then it is immoral for them to stop other communities from doing the same. On the other hand, survival is also a basic good, so if one society chooses to destroy another, then the latter is morally justified to defend itself. The golden rule is admirable, of course, but it doesn't go very deep or answer many moral questions.
My problem is that if you want to say that something is objectively good, how do you show this? Saying “just think about it” doesn’t work, because my thoughts are subjective.
Your thoughts are subjective but the substance of what you are thinking about is objective. We have an investigator (subject) and the object of the investigation (objective). It is not always necessary to "think about it," since self evident truths do not require any thought. It is self-evident (I hope) that it is good for humans to use their talents or seek what is good for them. The thinking part comes in after the self evident truth is acknowledged.
Saying “everyone decent thinks this” might be a bit better, but it might just mean that morals are socially constructed, and hence a result of lots of subjective negotiation.
What happens when unit A socially constructs one basic morality and unit B constructs another one? All the basic issues are non-negotiable. Subjectivists are typically pro-abortion; objectivists are typically pro-life. Who or what decides which moral code ought to prevail and what standard should they use when consensus is not an option?StephenB
January 13, 2018
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StephenB @ 81 -
I would argue that the good is that which is in accord with the nature of a thing.
I'm not sure that's a good answer, as it really just moves the problem from "what is good" to "what is the nature of a thing". Even worse, if it's in the nature of some people to torture children for fun, then you're saying that that is good. I don't think that's the conclusion you're looking for. :-) You give some examples of what is considered good, but are they morally good, and are they the only ways to build a good moral system? For example, it may be good to survive and live in communities, but does that mean that we can be nasty towards other communities? And if they are, why these choices of "fundamental goods", which don't include the Golden rule, for example? My problem is that if you want to say that something is objectively good, how do you show this? Saying "just think about it" doesn't work, because my thoughts are subjective. Saying "everyone decent thinks this" might be a bit better, but it might just mean that morals are socially constructed, and hence a result of lots of subjective negotiation.Bob O'H
January 13, 2018
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Bob O'H
StephenB @ 71 – How do we know what is good, though? Your answer doesn’t seem to be any different from “think about it” (it’s a but more complex: it seems to be “human nature means we know, so think about it”!). The problem is that people have had and still do have different views on moral issues (e.g. slavery, of you want to think historically).
I am alluding to fundamental goods that can be known about human nature. Example, it is *good* for humans to [a] seek the good, including their highest good [b] to survive, [c] to perpetuate the species, [d] to live in a community, [e] to use their faculties of intellect and will for making moral decisions. Can there be any doubt that these things are good for human beings?
Another problem with appealing to Human Nature is that you might find you’re just appealing to a naturalistic fallacy. I’m not sure if that can be avoided.
I would argue that the good is that which is in accord with the nature of a thing. A good pen is one that writes well. The standard of goodness was determined by the manufacturer, who decided what the pen is for. That is its nature. So it is with a can opener. It is the nature of a can opener to open cans, so a good can opener is one that can do that and a bad can opener is one that cannot. Without that standard, the words "good" and "bad" are meaningless. By extension, a good human is one that acts in accordance with its created nature. Does is seek its highest good? Is it progressing int that direction? Then it is a good human being. If there is no such thing as good, then there can be no morality. I don't think the word "natural" can capture this idea. It is natural to steal if we are poor or kill people if we are angry, but I don't think that these natural acts would qualify as good acts. In terms of the is-ought problem, I agree that you cannot derive an ought from the is (defined as observed behavioral facts on the ground), which is the point of the controversy, but I submit that we can definitely derive the ought from the metaphysical is (human nature, God, free will etc)StephenB
January 12, 2018
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CR, warrant is the big question in epistemology. reality is the big question in ontology. KF PS: How do "Pluto exists" and" we know Pluto exists post 1930 or thereabouts" differ?kairosfocus
January 12, 2018
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StephenB @ 71 - How do we know what is good, though? Your answer doesn't seem to be any different from "think about it" (it's a but more complex: it seems to be "human nature means we know, so think about it"!). The problem is that people have had and still do have different views on moral issues (e.g. slavery, of you want to think historically). Another problem with appealing to Human Nature is that you might find you're just appealing to a naturalistic fallacy. I'm not sure if that can be avoided.Bob O'H
January 12, 2018
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WJM @ 65 - in that scenario I would at least have the option of banking with that bank or not, so in that sense I would accept it, but I might move to another bank. So there you go - I'm not avoiding the point by wordplay. :-)Bob O'H
January 12, 2018
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