Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

WS Wants to Know Why He is Cynical and Uncharitable:  A Tutorial

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Update: It occurred to me that people might think this post is intended merely to pick on WS. Not so. The purpose of the post is to demonstrate the principle of charity in philosophy, science and in other areas where ideas compete. WS is a stand-in for every materialist objector to ID who assumes before the argument begins that ID proponents are all liars and therefore refuse to address their arguments at face value.

william spearshake:

Given that ID didn’t surface until Creationism was ruled a religion, and since it encompasses everything from 6000 year earth creationists, to evolutionary theists, and since most authors and most supportive commenters are theists (ie, Christian) I stand my my previous claim.  [i.e., that ID is religiously based]

Barry responds:

The essence of your belief is a cynical and uncharitable refusal to take people at their word. OK, you are entitled to be cynical and uncharitable. No law against that.

WS asks:

So, Barry, please explain to me again how my view that ID is a religious doctrine is “cynical and uncharitable”?

OK WS. I will. First let’s define the terms. Here is Wikipedia’s discussion of the “Principle of Charity”:

In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker’s statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.  In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others’ statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available.

In a nutshell, the principle of charity requires that when you are considering another person’s argument you try your best to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value.  It is uncharitable to assume he is lying or trying to mislead from his true objective or has ulterior motives.

My dictionary defines “cynical” as “distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.”

How do these terms apply to you?  ID proponents argue there are indicia of design that can sometimes be objectively detected.  These indicia include (1) high levels of specified complexity, (2) the existence of a semiotic code (a special case of (1)); and (3) the existence of irreducibly complex structures that could not possible have been assembled by blind natural forces in a step by step process with no ultimate goal in mind.

Here is where the rubber hits the road.  Many ID proponents believe that God is the best candidate for the designer (Indeed, he may be the only candidate when we are talking about design a the cosmological level, but I am limiting this discussion to biological ID).  Nevertheless, those ID proponents assert a distinction between what they believe on the basis of faith (God did it) and what they can demonstrate objectively (some intelligent designer, not necessarily God, did it).  In other words, they say that the design inference warranted by the indicia of design points only to a designer, not to a particular designer.

Now the essence of your claim is that ID proponents are inveterate liars.  You refuse to take at face value their claim that they are searching for objective indicia of design. You refuse to countenance their claim that the inference to design can be separated from personal beliefs about who the designer is.  You claim ID proponents are dishonestly trying to push their God beliefs with the ulterior motive of advancing a religious agenda in the guise of pursuing objective science.

So let’s count up the indicia of uncharitable:
Refuse to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value:  Check.
Assume he is lying:  Check
Assume he is trying to mislead from his true objective:  Check
Assume he has ulterior motives:  Check

What about cynical?
Distrusting or disparaging the motives of others:  Check

There you have it WS.  If the shoe fits . . .

Comments
Let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that william spearshake is the sock puppet of one Acartia_bogart. Acartia_bogart
So, one more try. Why is the average theist’s ethical and moral standards better (more objective) than the average atheist’s? Of, more significantly, why is this concept important to theists? It only important to a theist because it allows them the false perception of moral superiority over atheists. If this allows you to sleep better at night, go for it.
Mung: Why ought anyone even bother to attempt to provide you with an answer to that question? Acartia_bogart: Personally, I don’t care one way or the other. Mung: But given that you don’t care one way or another, why are you even bothering to post here at UD? Acartia_bogart: Let’s just call it a guilty pleasure.Mung
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
11:29 PM
11
11
29
PM
PST
AVS:
Interesting, I did not know the ribosome was capable of recognizing incorrect peptides. This really isn’t “shocking” though as both RNA polymerase and DNA pollymerase are capable of error correction.
If you indeed find that interesting, you might want to check out these posts: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/quality_control089961.html http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/quality_control_2090001.htmlMung
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
08:23 PM
8
08
23
PM
PST
Hi Joe, "... no shadow of reason can be assigned for the belief that variations ... were intentionally and specially guided." - The Variation of Plants and Animals and Plants Under Domestication, vol. II, p. 415 There you have it from Chucky D himself. One might just have easily written: "... no shadow of reason can be assigned for the belief that variations ... were not intentionally and specially guided." But is it science? It's not that "unguided" and "it just happened that's all" can't explain anything (they cant, but that's not the point). It's that they get their power from convincing otherwise rational people that no explanation is required.Mung
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
08:19 PM
8
08
19
PM
PST
ID is not anti-evolution you dimwit. And unguided processes can't explain anything beyond disease and deformities, that much we already know. It must really bother you that the more we know and the more we uncover Intelligent Design gets stronger and stronger.Joe
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
07:24 PM
7
07
24
PM
PST
Yes, just keep screaming "EVOLUTION CAN"T EXPLAIN IT," Joe and you'll probably be right for a long time. But rest assured, eventually it will be explained. Enjoy your life between the closing gaps of science, and keep paying your taxes so we can keep doing our research! =) <3AVS
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
07:14 PM
7
07
14
PM
PST
So you are ignorant of what a compiler is and you accuse me of being a child? You have serious issues. And yes RNA and DNA polymerase are capable of error correction- unguided evolution can't explain that either. Again, for the moron, with a compiler you have the SOURCE code going in and the OBJECT code coming out. It TRANSLATES one code into the other. With the ribosome you have one type of code going in and another type of code coming out. Geez I explained this such that a 7 year old could grasp it and you couldn't. No surprise there. And you and your ilk always turn to insults, whiny cry-baby antics, BS innuendos and lies. There are such things as computers that can be used to produce models. And really, don't blame us because your claims are untestable.Joe
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
07:02 PM
7
07
02
PM
PST
Interesting, I did not know the ribosome was capable of recognizing incorrect peptides. This really isn't "shocking" though as both RNA polymerase and DNA pollymerase are capable of error correction. Your link doesn't work for me and in the end your comparison is still incredibly superficial. "Code in, code out. Yup they're the same" is about the level of reasoning I'd expect from a child. And as you and your friends always seem to have to turn to, "show me how it happened," "you can't even model it," is just you guys demonstrating how little you understand about experimental biology. Do you know how difficult it is to model just a microsecond of random movement a protein would undergo?AVS
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
06:51 PM
6
06
51
PM
PST
” if something is wrong with the source code the ribosome stops the process” AVS:
What exactly are you talking about here and where is the evidence for this?
The ribosome is a genetic compiler!
The enzyme machine that translates a cell's DNA code into the proteins of life is nothing if not an editorial perfectionist.
Think about it- What happens to a newly written or modified computer code that has an error? All new and modified codes have to go through a compiler. A compiler is nothing if not an editorial perfectionist! I bet if we were to watch we would see the compiler doing its thing right up to the point the error occurs and then spits it out much faster than if the code was OK, ie error free. Biologists need to be introduced to and experience computer science. Then this sort of discovery wouldn’t be so “shocking”. Compiler- source code in, object code out. Ribosome- mRNA in (string of nucleotides), polypeptide out (string of amino acids). AVS:
The correlation between codon and amino acid were arbitrary “choices” made by chemical evolution.
Evidence please.
Yes we do not know exactly how this system as we now know it evolved,
You can't even model unguided processes doing it.Joe
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
05:13 PM
5
05
13
PM
PST
" if something is wrong with the source code the ribosome stops the process" What exactly are you talking about here and where is the evidence for this? The correlation between codon and amino acid were arbitrary "choices" made by chemical evolution. The "choice" was based on and and can be reduced to chemical interactions between the earliest ancestral tRNA, aa-tRNA synthetases, and amino acids. Yes we do not know exactly how this system as we now know it evolved, and maybe we never will, but playing off the complexity of this problem and saying that it is impossible or not reducible is just you guys being completely ignorant of molecular evolution.AVS
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
03:37 PM
3
03
37
PM
PST
AVS- Codons represent amino acids. If there was a reaction that caused the codons to become amino acids that would be different and if that were the case we wouldn't be talking about codes. We would be talking about formulas that illustrate those reactions. The genetic code is arbitrary, meaning it is not reducible to law nor any physical constraints. And then there is that representation part, that is where semiotics comes in. You have one type of molecule, a nucleotide triplet, representing another type of molecule, an amino acid. And as of today there isn't any known chemical nor physical cause for the representations observed. But we do know of a cause tat can bring about arbitrary relationships and representations...Joe
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
02:13 PM
2
02
13
PM
PST
AVS:
Do you not see how superficial your comparison is between the biological translation system and human codes and languages?
There isn't anything superficial about it. The ribosome is a genetic compiler- you have the source code coming in, that of the codons, and you have the object code coming out, that of the polypeptides. And if something is wrong with the source code the ribosome stops the process, just as our compilers would. And again, it was Crick who has defined what biological information is, and in this case functionality = meaning. Which is, when you think about it, why computer codes are written, to perform some function.Joe
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
02:03 PM
2
02
03
PM
PST
Feel free to educate me since you seem to know it so well.AVS
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
01:11 PM
1
01
11
PM
PST
AVS:
On a side note, the more I look into semiotics, the more it becomes apparent that nobody knows exactly what it is.
Look deeper.Mung
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PST
On a side note, the more I look into semiotics, the more it becomes apparent that nobody knows exactly what it is. Which is perfect for you guys, it allows you to define it in any way you want. In the end there is nothing else like the molecular basis of life, any attempt at a comparison to another system is completely superficial.AVS
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
12:46 PM
12
12
46
PM
PST
At first glance, yes, this alien would be entitled to think both systems were designed. And this is because that first glance at both systems is extremely superficial, just like your semiotics comparison between the two. As I said, a more detailed look at these two systems would demonstrate the huge differences in their underlying mechanisms, one designed by intelligent minds, the other derived from natural properties and laws.AVS
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
12:37 PM
12
12
37
PM
PST
AVS:
My point is that when you get down to it, the biological translational system does not read letters and comprehend them into a meaning in any way like we do.
Take a sec to watch this video of robots working on cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjAZGUcjrP8 Now, I take it that the robots run on software. I also take it that the robots don't "read" the software and "comprehend" it into meaning like a human software engineer would. Now assume all trace of technology, civilization and life vanished from this planet except for these robots, which continued working away. If an alien happened along, under your reasoning he would not be entitled to infer the robots or the software operating them was designed. That is obviously wrong. Ergo, your reasoning is wrong.Barry Arrington
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PST
Do you not see how superficial your comparison is between the biological translation system and human codes and languages? Yes all these systems have a "code" of some sort that translates into "meaning," but once you start digging deeper into the biological side of the equation, the differences become quite clear. I think the problem is that we as humans explain the translational system using letters and words (how else would we do it), which makes it seem like there is huge similarities between this system and actual languages themselves. My point is that when you get down to it, the biological translational system does not read letters and comprehend them into a meaning in any way like we do.AVS
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
12:00 PM
12
12
00
PM
PST
AVS
You see Stephen, the problem is that when you guys apply semiotics to biology, you are comparing things that we already know have been designed by the human mind to the the thing in question: biology.
Well, of course. DNA provides coded instructions to determine an organism's individual traits. Among other things, semiotics involves the study of codes and the language of instruction. If we know that the latter is designed, why would it not make sense to inquire if the former was designed?
As I have said before, this is an awful comparison. Trying to apply semiotics to biology altogether sounds like a pile of cow manure in my opinion.
That's like saying, "trying to apply the principles of communication and signals to the study of cellular communication and cell signaling sounds like a pile of cow manure." You really are not thinking very clearly.StephenB
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
11:28 AM
11
11
28
AM
PST
AVS- Your examples don't have anything to do with semiotics. And the difference between data and information is explained in "The Privileged Planet". Even Wikipedia says that to get information from data one has to add meaning. Don't blame me for your ignorance, AVS. I challenge AVS to post the definition of semiotics and then demonstrate how its examples meet the definition.Joe
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
10:39 AM
10
10
39
AM
PST
So, UB, nothing to say about my three examples that ruin your supposed "universal semiotic systems result from design?" I mean in comment 32 you were just fine with calling the biosphere a semiotic system, so why not my examples? And don't give me Joe's BS excuse that I'm confusing data and information because we both know that s just you guys applying the very loose definition of information however you see fit. Anyone saying that what I say is "false" or "wrong" please feel free to demonstrate this. I have given examples of what I believe to be semiotic systems that do not have designers and as far as I can tell these systems fall within the constraints of the standard definition of semiotics. If I'm incorrect, it shouldn't be too hard to prove me wrong. No? Maybe the problem for you guys is that this whole semiotics argument is nothing but a house of cards, built on your paper thin definitions of "semiotics" and "information." Everything you guys say and do is twisted in a way so that in the end, the results are sure to prove your initial assumption: that biology was designed.AVS
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
10:11 AM
10
10
11
AM
PST
AVS,
Trying to apply semiotics to biology altogether sounds like a pile of cow manure in my opinion.
We've already been here.Upright BiPed
September 27, 2014
September
09
Sep
27
27
2014
02:11 AM
2
02
11
AM
PST
AVS:
You see Stephen, the problem is that when you guys apply semiotics to biology, you are comparing things that we already know have been designed by the human mind to the the thing in question: biology.
That's simply false.
As I have said before, this is an awful comparison.
Well, as I have said before, you're wrong.Mung
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:19 PM
4
04
19
PM
PST
Wow! I read an OP, watch a terrible football game, go to work, take a nap, and we are all already at 101. My favorites along the way. . . WS@1, looking for justification in some added context. That was hilarious! The unstated premises seemed to be "All blasphemy is acceptable on a website." or possibly "The actions of a website sponsor necessarily indicate his motivations which in turn define the underlying structure of an unrelated inference." See, that's sort of the beauty of poor reasoning. As we try in vain to "guess" what possible premises could resuscitate the argument, the person who made the assertion can happily answer back, "nope, you've got me all wrong" without ever coming clean. WS, I am sure we have misunderstood you, so please feel free to add some more context. posts . . . floating by . . . and I although I appreciate KF's and linger there for a bit, I know when I hit StephenB @35 and especially at @36 its going to be good. Thank you both. StephenB:
You can begin by saying something rational. . . Try to make sense when you write. It is uncharitable to purposely write in a fog, especially when you are misrepresenting someone else’s paradigm.
Man, that's good stuff! It is incredibly trying to undo shadings and shadows while allowing people (the general) freedom to say what they want. Time for some verse: Of epics (and limericks?) my sweet muse Calliope, Please pardon this rant for, like trolls, it is dopey. What truth we detect, though, the list remains checked, oh, Still 100 posts after the initial OP!Tim
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
02:16 PM
2
02
16
PM
PST
I'm pretty sure that WS isn't really a troll. Maybe we should lighten up.Mung
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
01:31 PM
1
01
31
PM
PST
AVS:
You see Stephen, the problem is that when you guys apply semiotics to biology, you are comparing things that we already know have been designed by the human mind to the the thing in question: biology.
The comparison works.
As I said to UB, it depends on how you define the symbols and the meaning of your semiotic approach to the problem.
The standard definitions apply.
I can say that rock strata in the grand canyon demonstrates past sedimentation rates, or that iron atom polarity in the seabed of atlantic oceanic ridge demonstrates the location of the Earth’s magnetic poles during the time that rock was formed, or vegetation and rock formations at coastlines demonstrate tidal history; none of these processes have an intelligent designer, but they do have meaning and represent information.
None of those have anything to do with semiotics. Also you are confusing data with information.
And there you go in fact, three examples of a semiotic system that were not designed.
Only someone ignorant wrt semiotics would make such a claim.Joe
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
12:48 PM
12
12
48
PM
PST
You see Stephen, the problem is that when you guys apply semiotics to biology, you are comparing things that we already know have been designed by the human mind to the the thing in question: biology. As I have said before, this is an awful comparison. Trying to apply semiotics to biology altogether sounds like a pile of cow manure in my opinion. As I said to UB, it depends on how you define the symbols and the meaning of your semiotic approach to the problem. I can say that rock strata in the grand canyon demonstrates past sedimentation rates, or that iron atom polarity in the seabed of atlantic oceanic ridge demonstrates the location of the Earth's magnetic poles during the time that rock was formed, or vegetation and rock formations at coastlines demonstrate tidal history; none of these processes have an intelligent designer, but they do have meaning and represent information. And there you go in fact, three examples of a semiotic system that were not designed. All three prove UB's original "universal observation" statement wrong. So semiotics is out the window, and IC only exists in the mind of individuals who refuse to look at the actual information we have collected on the systems they point to, so what is ID left with? Not much.AVS
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
11:03 AM
11
11
03
AM
PST
RodW @93: I am a "YEC" if you want to label people, and I would confess that this is due to Biblical (religious if you wish) reasons rather than scientific, primarily. Note, that does not mean science offers no support for this view, I just prioritise Scripture over everything else. If we had no Scripture the age of the Earth would not matter too much and of course I would go with what seemed reasonable from what we observe. The age of the Earth comes down to essentially radioisotope dating – this is the only strong evidence that would point to a ~4bya age of the Earth itself. Bear in mind other pieces of evidence may call that into question, which is why YEC’s often contest this method as accurate. Personally, to me it is not of huge concern to try and disprove radioisotope dating and I am quite intellectually satisfied in what I believe as a YEC. However through various other reasons I have strong personal evidence that a) there is a Designer/Creator and b) the Bible is the inspired revealed Word of that Creator. Therefore, if that is true (especially b) we have a first-hand testimony and account of One who was there at the beginning, therefore this to me trumps anything a human many years ago could ever say by trying to work out the past. Which is more valuable in a court of law – the testimony of someone who thinks they know what happened or the testimony of someone (assuming true under oath) who witnessed something? However I would argue most YEC’s belief’s are based on primary acceptance of the Scriptures as evidence of God’s Word and therefore the supreme authority on all things it speaks of, above anything man says. Importantly, the establishing of the Bible as the Word of God is based on historical, archeological and other evidence that provide veracity for it to be true and trusted, rather than a blind acceptance of a religious book. Forgetting the Bible and the age of the earth though, independent of that it is ludicrous to assume that natural processes could upwards generate the complexity we see today from a primordial soup.Dr JDD
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
10:27 AM
10
10
27
AM
PST
AVS
I was drawing parallels about why these two things BOTH assume and require a designer: Semiotics needs that initial input of “meaning” IC needs that first input of “structure-function relationship”
Don’t you understand what you just did? You just asserted that every design requires a designer. You didn’t assume that a designer is necessary; you concluded that a designer was necessary.
I am certainly not going to try to “explain anything ID does from beginning to end,” as I have no idea really what it does.
Precisely. On the one hand, you admit that you don’t know anything about the process. On the other hand, you insist that the process that you know nothing about includes the assumption of a designer. Never mind the fact that those who do know the process have presented a flow chart that describes every step from beginning to end, proving that no such assumption has been included. Don’t you think it is uncharitable to try to discredit something that you know nothing about even to the point of making things up? Don’t you think it is uncharitable to ignore the flow chart so as to remain willfully ignorant of the facts?StephenB
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
09:35 AM
9
09
35
AM
PST
RodW- YECs can make any claim they want. It doesn't matter if they cannot support it. And they cannot support the claim that scripture discusses the age of the earth. But yes YECs say that science points to a younger than 4.5x billion year old earth. And they have made some very valid points in that regard. However they are still a ways off from 6,000- 12,000 years.Joe
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
09:16 AM
9
09
16
AM
PST
Joe, YECs would claim scripture is definately not silent on the age of the earth, but more to the point, they would claim the scientific evidence supports a young earth so religion is beside the point. This is always the claim of creation-scientists and its the whole point of the Kentucky Creation Museum.RodW
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
08:59 AM
8
08
59
AM
PST
1 2 3 5

Leave a Reply