Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

WS Wants to Know Why He is Cynical and Uncharitable:  A Tutorial

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Update: It occurred to me that people might think this post is intended merely to pick on WS. Not so. The purpose of the post is to demonstrate the principle of charity in philosophy, science and in other areas where ideas compete. WS is a stand-in for every materialist objector to ID who assumes before the argument begins that ID proponents are all liars and therefore refuse to address their arguments at face value.

william spearshake:

Given that ID didn’t surface until Creationism was ruled a religion, and since it encompasses everything from 6000 year earth creationists, to evolutionary theists, and since most authors and most supportive commenters are theists (ie, Christian) I stand my my previous claim.  [i.e., that ID is religiously based]

Barry responds:

The essence of your belief is a cynical and uncharitable refusal to take people at their word. OK, you are entitled to be cynical and uncharitable. No law against that.

WS asks:

So, Barry, please explain to me again how my view that ID is a religious doctrine is “cynical and uncharitable”?

OK WS. I will. First let’s define the terms. Here is Wikipedia’s discussion of the “Principle of Charity”:

In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker’s statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.  In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the others’ statements, when a coherent, rational interpretation of the statements is available.

In a nutshell, the principle of charity requires that when you are considering another person’s argument you try your best to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value.  It is uncharitable to assume he is lying or trying to mislead from his true objective or has ulterior motives.

My dictionary defines “cynical” as “distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.”

How do these terms apply to you?  ID proponents argue there are indicia of design that can sometimes be objectively detected.  These indicia include (1) high levels of specified complexity, (2) the existence of a semiotic code (a special case of (1)); and (3) the existence of irreducibly complex structures that could not possible have been assembled by blind natural forces in a step by step process with no ultimate goal in mind.

Here is where the rubber hits the road.  Many ID proponents believe that God is the best candidate for the designer (Indeed, he may be the only candidate when we are talking about design a the cosmological level, but I am limiting this discussion to biological ID).  Nevertheless, those ID proponents assert a distinction between what they believe on the basis of faith (God did it) and what they can demonstrate objectively (some intelligent designer, not necessarily God, did it).  In other words, they say that the design inference warranted by the indicia of design points only to a designer, not to a particular designer.

Now the essence of your claim is that ID proponents are inveterate liars.  You refuse to take at face value their claim that they are searching for objective indicia of design. You refuse to countenance their claim that the inference to design can be separated from personal beliefs about who the designer is.  You claim ID proponents are dishonestly trying to push their God beliefs with the ulterior motive of advancing a religious agenda in the guise of pursuing objective science.

So let’s count up the indicia of uncharitable:
Refuse to accept and analyze his arguments on their own terms and at face value:  Check.
Assume he is lying:  Check
Assume he is trying to mislead from his true objective:  Check
Assume he has ulterior motives:  Check

What about cynical?
Distrusting or disparaging the motives of others:  Check

There you have it WS.  If the shoe fits . . .

Comments
Andre, that's ATP synthase, the protein complex that makes ATP. As I have to say to most of your friends here, be careful about what you say. As for the evolution of this structure, we can look at the variations in different species, which act as snapshots of he evolution of this complex (the same can be done for the bacterial flagellum). The difficult part is understanding how these variations came about, and in the process determine the evolution of the structure.AVS
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
05:21 AM
5
05
21
AM
PDT
kairosfocus
Stepwise incremental accumulation is blocked by the implication that natural selection, so called, is not foresighted and will cull out non-performing changes.
Actually, we now know that neutral and even deleterious mutations can become fixed in a population. Non-performing changes are not necessarily culled out.CLAVDIVS
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
05:17 AM
5
05
17
AM
PDT
PS: Sigh. Your definition of evolution is a slip slide. There is a huge difference between empirical micro-changes, often by loss of function, and the grand narrative across the tree of life from OOL to the dozens of major body plans. And, there is simply no adequate empirical warrant for inferring the latter from the former, the controlling notion is implicit imposition of a priori evolutionary materialism, by which such MUST have happened by some evolutionary pathway on blind chance and mechanical necessity never mind the issues and challenges. This can be detailed but I have no time to do so now -- I must respond to that call NOW, I suggest strongly as a first step you read the UD Weak Argument Correctives in a sober spirit rather than with a selectively hyperskeptical rhetorical grid.kairosfocus
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
05:14 AM
5
05
14
AM
PDT
AVS Yes! I like your answer but please tell, how does that make molecules man?Andre
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
05:13 AM
5
05
13
AM
PDT
AVS
Andre, first of all, ATP doesn’t have a stator, rotor, and shaft. You need to do a better job of copy/pasting.
The Stator http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2570231/ The rotor http://www.jbc.org/content/276/3/1665 The shaft http://nature.berkeley.edu/~goster/pdfs/EMB.pdf I must be imagining this and obviously these researchers too!Andre
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
05:10 AM
5
05
10
AM
PDT
AVS: Again, with all due respect, you strawmannise. The issue with the flagellum is that it is demonstrably IC, with some 30 parts that once one is removed, destroy function. Cf Scott Minnich's empirical work on that. The issue beyond that is to account for such. Stepwise incremental accumulation is blocked by the implication that natural selection, so called, is not foresighted and will cull out non-performing changes. This leaves exaptations, which face Menuge's challenges C1 - 5. In fact, there is no reasonable incrementalist or exaptation account of the origin of the flagellum. The suggested TTSS, seems to be DERIVATIVE of the flagellum, and it is in any case also IC as a subsystem. This has long since been discussed in serious literature. Now, I have to get back to that transition, I just had an urgent call that demands act now. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
05:10 AM
5
05
10
AM
PDT
Evolve means changes in a population which effect subsequent generations. Or was it a rhetorical question because you have nothing important to say?AVS
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
05:05 AM
5
05
05
AM
PDT
AVS What does evolve mean to you? AVS? That a bunch of molecules by pure luck and chance started a bunch of chemical reactions and then presto 3 billion years later the end product of those chemical reactions is you? Is this what evolve means to you AVS?Andre
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
05:02 AM
5
05
02
AM
PDT
Yes, because languages, the car, and your house all have a designer, therefore we can extrapolate this out to mean that biology has a designer. Makes perfect sense.AVS
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
05:02 AM
5
05
02
AM
PDT
B: On OOL, and OO body plans, we are dealing with explanatory models of the remote, unobservable past based on traces from them accessible to us and causal factors that should be shown to be capable of causing the like effects on our observation [the Vera Causa principle]. Design theory does not pretend to be able to give a comprehensive fully true account of that remote past, just that there are empirical traces from it that show tested and reliable signs of design. Codes, algorithms, executing machinery, FSCO/I and the like, to wit for OOL. It can be readily shown that such signs are observed to result from design, on trillions of cases in point. It has not been shown that such credibly do per our observation come about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. The imposition of an a priori evolutionary materialist view on the explanatory narratives devised to account for that past of origins, then is in violation of vera causa, and the commonplace presentation of the resulting narratives as "fact, fact, fact" comparable to the roundness of the earth or gravity or the orbiting of Moons and planets etc, is a confusion of what is directly observable with an explanation. It would be helpful to understand that explanations of an unobservable past thus cannot be facts, they can only be at most empirically reliable and scientifically useful as a result. Where all scientific explanations are subject to correction or replacement in light of further empirical investigations. In this context, the design inference is a modest one: that there are itemisable empirical observations in nature, in the cosmos and the world of life that per vera causa point to design as best causal explanatory factor as opposed to blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:56 AM
4
04
56
AM
PDT
PPS: By "Hypotheses" Newton meant speculative metaphysical pronouncements injected as controlling a prioris without room for empirical test.kairosfocus
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:45 AM
4
04
45
AM
PDT
So because we don't know exactly how the bacterial flagellum evolved, this means that it couldn't have? So because we can take out an entire protein involved in the bacterial flagellum and see a loss of function, this means that it is irreducibly complex? Are we just going to ignore the massive amounts of variation in structure of bacterial flagella across species? Some species with more complex flagella, some with less? Are we just going to ignore the homology between the bacterial flagella and the bacterial injectisome? How about the similarity between the FliH,I, and J proteins to F and V ATPases? Yes at first glance the bacterial flagellum may look irreducibly complex, but when you get down into the details you can't ignore the evidence that suggests its evolution.AVS
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:44 AM
4
04
44
AM
PDT
KF, IMHO, Neither ID nor Evolution has properly explained origin and spread of life. Taking my thoughts from that point, is there any consensus on where and how ID agent intervenes to guide a complex process like flagellum formation that you have mentioned ? Do you think the agent intervenes in the myriad processes of various systems in millions of different species ?the bystander
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:43 AM
4
04
43
AM
PDT
AVS:
Andre, first of all, ATP doesn’t have a stator, rotor, and shaft.
Blind watchmaker evolution doesn't have anything to say about ATP synthase.
There is a lot of information on both the evolution of the flagella and ribosome.
And yet nothing that demonstrates unguided evolution can produce either.
Error correction systems can be carried out by the enzymes that are already used to synthesize polymers.
So what? Tat doesn't mean the bluind watchmaker didit.
The evolution of the circulatory, digestive, and nervous system are all well studied
Again, so what? Just because they are well studied doesn't mean the blind watchmaker didit.
Just because you get your information from only one source, doesn’t mean the other side of the argument doesn’t exist.
You have proven that there isn't any other side. Thanks.Joe
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:35 AM
4
04
35
AM
PDT
AVS:
UB, First, since you don’t mention anything about IC, I’ll assume that you are agreeing it does require a designer.
This sounds a lot like confusing an inductively grounded inference on many examples and associated analysis, with the notion that such is equal to qurstion-begging. Your problem is with the logic of induction, not that design theory is improperly assuming what it infers. In short, you are in trouble with the logic on which science rests. Let me here clip from Newton in Opticks, Query 31 on basic scientific inference-making:
As in Mathematicks, so in Natural Philosophy, the Investigation of difficult Things by the Method of Analysis, ought ever to precede the Method of Composition. This Analysis consists in making Experiments and Observations, and in drawing general Conclusions from them by Induction, and admitting of no Objections against the Conclusions, but such as are taken from Experiments, or other certain Truths. For Hypotheses are not to be regarded in experimental Philosophy. And although the arguing from Experiments and Observations by Induction be no Demonstration of general Conclusions; yet it is the best way of arguing which the Nature of Things admits of, and may be looked upon as so much the stronger, by how much the Induction is more general. And if no Exception occur from Phaenomena, the Conclusion may be pronounced generally. But if at any time afterwards any Exception shall occur from Experiments, it may then begin to be pronounced with such Exceptions as occur. By this way of Analysis we may proceed from Compounds to Ingredients, and from Motions to the Forces producing them; and in general, from Effects to their Causes, and from particular Causes to more general ones, till the Argument end in the most general. This is the Method of Analysis: And the Synthesis consists in assuming the Causes discover'd, and establish'd as Principles, and by them explaining the Phaenomena proceeding from them, and proving the Explanations.
Is Newton merely begging questions? is it question egging to generalise from the pattern of the regular rising of the sun or the fall of heavy objects to scientific laws underlying such? And, on the concept that there are complex entities whose core function is based on the interaction of multiple, well-matched, properly arranged and coupled parts, such that failure or removal of any one core part leads to functional failure, this is a commonplace of experience. What Behe has identified is that there are such structures in life forms from unicellular ones up to us. Which is easily demonstrable to the satisfaction of a reasonable person. In fact the use of genetic knockout studies in biology pivots on it. Behe's point is that because of that integrated necessary componets structure, direct incremental creation is not credible and the falling together of things that worked for other things so presto they are well matched and perform a new function all at once is also not credible. He has further, documented that there is a revealing lack of empirical documentation of origin of such systems incrementally. In addition, Menuge points out the five-fold challenge to get to such IC entities by exaptation:
For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met: C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function. C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time. C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed. C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant. C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly. ( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)
This is not a matter of simplistic question begging on the part of design thinkers, and it would be appreciated if you would cease from setting up and knocking over strawman caricatures. KF PS: You may find the early ID foundations article on IC here useful, and also page 2 that deals with knockout studies.kairosfocus
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:30 AM
4
04
30
AM
PDT
Andre, first of all, ATP doesn't have a stator, rotor, and shaft. You need to do a better job of copy/pasting. There is a lot of information on both the evolution of the flagella and ribosome. Error correction systems can be carried out by the enzymes that are already used to synthesize polymers. The evolution of the circulatory, digestive, and nervous system are all well studied. Just because you get your information from only one source, doesn't mean the other side of the argument doesn't exist.AVS
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:27 AM
4
04
27
AM
PDT
AVS:
“Assumes” and “requires” both work and are interchangeable for my purposes.
Only if your "purpose" is obfuscation.
When it comes down to it, both semiosis and IC assume a designer.
Stonehenge does too.Joe
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:21 AM
4
04
21
AM
PDT
AVS You say;
the one thing we do not know has an intelligent designer: biology
What gives? Is ATP with its stator, rotor and shaft not enough evidence for you? How about the Flagella? Not enough evidence for you? How about the Ribosome? Not enough evidence for you? How about error correction systems in biological systems? Not enough evidence for you? How about information (highly specified) to run the hardware not enough evidence for you? The Heart as a pump? The intestines as fuel extractors and waste management? The brain a s a processor? The nervous system as a environmental feedback system? If this fails to convince you about design then it obviously holds that you think there is some natural process that can do it, in light of the fact that we know with certainty that only designers can do such thinks the burden of proof for your extraordinary claim that natural process can do so lies with you! Evidence please?Andre
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:20 AM
4
04
20
AM
PDT
Stephen, “Assumes” and “requires” both work and are interchangeable for my purposes. That is why I used both of them. When it comes down to it, both semiosis and IC assume a designer. Therefore, in the end they both require a designer to input that original “meaning” into a semiotic system or create that original “structure function relationship” in a supposed IC system. “I would say that both semiosis/irreducible complexity require a designer to define meaning/create a structure-function relationship.” Is what I said, and you need the whole sentence for it to make sense. I left the word “respectively” off the end, maybe that is what is throwing you off. I was drawing parallels about why these two things BOTH assume and require a designer: Semiotics needs that initial input of “meaning” IC needs that first input of “structure-function relationship” I am certainly not going to try to “explain anything ID does from beginning to end," as I have no idea really what it does. All I am saying is that if ID is based on semiotics and IC, as UB says, then it is based on BOTH the assumption and requirement of a designer. I hope I have made myself more clear.AVS
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:18 AM
4
04
18
AM
PDT
If someone could just step up and demonstrate that non-design processes can produce what we call IC then the IC argument would fall. And it is very telling that no one has been able to do so. Incessant whining is not going to do it and that is all AVS, et al., have.Joe
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:16 AM
4
04
16
AM
PDT
AVS:
If I may be so bold as to speak for WS, maybe he thinks that ID relies on the assumption that there is a designer (a god in just about all cases), which by default makes it a religious doctrine.
That is incorrect and exposes your ignorance, again. The only assumption ID relies on is the assumption that we have an ability to determine the root cause of the things we are investigating.Joe
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:12 AM
4
04
12
AM
PDT
AVS:
First, since you don’t mention anything about IC, I’ll assume that you are agreeing it does require a designer.
That all depends on the degree of complexity. A 2 piece IC system probably doesn't require an intelligent designer. As for arguments, you don't have any and you have also failed the biology test.
UB, the only case for IC is that “we don’t know how it came about, therefore it irreducibly complex.”
Spoken like an ignorant troll on an agenda.Joe
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:09 AM
4
04
09
AM
PDT
UB, First, since you don’t mention anything about IC, I’ll assume that you are agreeing it does require a designer. As for semiotics, as I see it, the “documentation” is the equivalent to data collection and the assumption of a designer is the conclusion you come to. This of course is if all systems are the result of a designing agent. The problem here is your definition of a defining agent. If you define it as an intelligent being then you are comparing things like language and number systems, which all are known to be designed by intelligent beings, to the one thing we do not know has an intelligent designer: biology. This would be a very poor comparison. However, if you define your designing agent more broadly, you will soon find that there certainly are systems that contain information without an intelligent driving force that creates it. Once again I am afraid your arguments fail the biology test. What you say may sound good to your friends here, but to someone who has a good grasp of the details of biology it’s just nonsense.AVS
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
04:02 AM
4
04
02
AM
PDT
#34 KF
It is beginning to look a lot like what is really going on is the notion that a designer of the cosmos is not possible and a designer of life on earth is effectively impossible as well. On that premise, no amount of evidence pointing inductively to design will ever be enough. But, at the cost of injecting a priori evolutionary materialism as a question-begging censor on scientific thought regarding origins.
Exactly! PS. Minor disagreement: It is beginning to look... IMO it has looked like that quite a long time, but you are very nice, courteous and polite on that. Definitely a lesson for me to learn from. :)Dionisio
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
03:54 AM
3
03
54
AM
PDT
F/N: Newton in the General Scholium to Principia, as clipped in my always linked note (as in always there). Note, Principia is the greatest single work of modern science, consolidating the triumph of the Scientific Revolution and shaping our outlook ever after: _____________ >> . . . This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centres of other like systems, these, being formed by the like wise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One; especially since the light of the fixed stars is of the same nature with the light of the sun, and from every system light passes into all the other systems: and lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other mutually, he hath placed those systems at immense distances one from another. This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called Lord God pantokrator , or Universal Ruler; for God is a relative word, and has a respect to servants; and Deity is the dominion of God not over his own body, as those imagine who fancy God to be the soul of the world, but over servants. The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect; but a being, however perfect, without dominion, cannot be said to be Lord God; for we say, my God, your God, the God of Israel, the God of Gods, and Lord of Lords; but we do not say, my Eternal, your Eternal, the Eternal of Israel, the Eternal of Gods; we do not say, my Infinite, or my Perfect: these are titles which have no respect to servants. The word God usually signifies Lord; but every lord is not a God. It is the dominion of a spiritual being which constitutes a God: a true, supreme, or imaginary dominion makes a true, supreme, or imaginary God. And from his true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being; and, from his other perfections, that he is supreme, or most perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is not eternity or infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present. He endures for ever, and is every where present; and by existing always and every where, he constitutes duration and space. Since every particle of space is always, and every indivisible moment of duration is every where, certainly the Maker and Lord of all things cannot be never and no where. Every soul that has perception is, though in different times and in different organs of sense and motion, still the same indivisible person. There are given successive parts in duration, co-existent puts in space, but neither the one nor the other in the person of a man, or his thinking principle; and much less can they be found in the thinking substance of God. Every man, so far as he is a thing that has perception, is one and the same man during his whole life, in all and each of his organs of sense. God is the same God, always and every where. He is omnipresent not virtually only, but also substantially; for virtue cannot subsist without substance. In him are all things contained and moved [i.e. cites Ac 17, where Paul evidently cites Cleanthes]; yet neither affects the other: God suffers nothing from the motion of bodies; bodies find no resistance from the omnipresence of God. It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [i.e accepts the cosmological argument to God.] Whence also he is all similar, all eye, all ear, all brain, all arm, all power to perceive, to understand, and to act; but in a manner not at all human, in a manner not at all corporeal, in a manner utterly unknown to us. As a blind man has no idea of colours, so have we no idea of the manner by which the all-wise God perceives and understands all things. He is utterly void of all body and bodily figure, and can therefore neither be seen, nor heard, or touched; nor ought he to be worshipped under the representation of any corporeal thing. [Cites Exod 20.] We have ideas of his attributes, but what the real substance of any thing is we know not. In bodies, we see only their figures and colours, we hear only the sounds, we touch only their outward surfaces, we smell only the smells, and taste the savours; but their inward substances are not to be known either by our senses, or by any reflex act of our minds: much less, then, have we any idea of the substance of God. We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [i.e from his designs]: we admire him for his perfections; but we reverence and adore him on account of his dominion: for we adore him as his servants; and a god without dominion, providence, and final causes, is nothing else but Fate and Nature. Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [i.e necessity does not produce contingency] All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [That is, implicitly rejects chance, Plato's third alternative [--> in The Laws Bk X] and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.] But, by way of allegory, God is said to see, to speak, to laugh, to love, to hate, to desire, to give, to receive, to rejoice, to be angry, to fight, to frame, to work, to build; for all our notions of God are taken from. the ways of mankind by a certain similitude, which, though not perfect, has some likeness, however. And thus much concerning God; to discourse of whom from the appearances of things, does certainly belong to Natural Philosophy. [Cf also his Rules of Reasoning.] >> ______________ The phrase Natural Philosophy illustrates Newton's thinking that what we call scientific investigations are inescapably philosophical, an exercise in epistemology on empirical observations of the natural world. Justly grounded conclusions are Knowledge . . . and "Science" is simply a modified form of the Latin word for knowledge. (Our English term traces to the Greek, gnosis.) In the above, Newton makes a philosophical-theological case, informed by his philosophical, theological and Scriptural background, and actually holds that such plays a legitimate role in epistemological investigations of the natural world. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
03:33 AM
3
03
33
AM
PDT
F/N: On the rise of modern science as a major, self-sustaining, progressive cultural project and institution and its worldview roots, from Dan Peterson's What's the big deal about Intelligent Design? in the Dec 22 2005 American Spectator . . . NB, I would phrase the matter in terms of the rise of the modern natural sciences (I don't like the American tendency to speak in terms of "Science" because of the many ambiguities): ___________ >> . . . from a materialist perspective, which holds as a matter of faith that God does not exist, any effort to show that life is designed will necessarily be an exercise in falsehood. If one defines the universe as consisting only of material forces, there is no intelligent designer and hence there can be no intelligent design. Materialism thus rules ID out of bounds, and holds it to be false, by definition. That is what leads to the emphatic claims that intelligent design is "not science." ID transgresses the central tenet of materialism. But are materialism and science the same thing? Must all science be based on a view that matter and energy are "all there is," and that there cannot possibly be an ordering intelligence behind the creation of life, the design of physical laws, and the place of human beings in the cosmos? Will a theistic worldview stop science in its tracks, as some materialists claim, because scientists who accept design will throw up their hands, and refer all explanations to "the will of God"? No, no, and no. The attempt to equate science with materialism is a quite recent development, coming chiefly to the fore in the 20th century. Contrary to widespread propaganda, science is not something that arose after the dark, obscurantist forces of religion were defeated by an "enlightened" nontheistic worldview. The facts of history [--> notice the history problem, again!] show otherwise. IN HIS RECENT BOOK For the Glory of God, Rodney Stark argues "not only that there is no inherent conflict between religion and science, but that Christian theology was essential for the rise of science." . . . While researching this thesis, Stark found to his surprise that "some of my central arguments have already become the conventional wisdom among historians of science." He is nevertheless "painfully aware" that most of the arguments about the close connection between Christian belief and the rise of science are "unknown outside narrow scholarly circles," and that many people believe that it could not possibly be true. Sometimes the most obvious facts are the easiest to overlook. Here is one that ought to be stunningly obvious: science as an organized, sustained enterprise arose only once in the history of Earth. Where was that? Although other civilizations have contributed technical achievements or isolated innovations, the invention of science as a cumulative, rigorous, systematic, and ongoing investigation into the laws of nature occurred only in Europe; that is, in the civilization then known as Christendom. Science arose and flourished in a civilization that, at the time, was profoundly and nearly exclusively Christian in its mental outlook. There are deep reasons for that, and they are inherent in the Judeo-Christian view of the world which, principally in its Christian manifestation, formed the European mind. As Stark observes, the Christian view depicted God as "a rational, responsive, dependable, and omnipotent being and the universe as his personal creation, thus having a rational, lawful, stable structure, awaiting human comprehension." That was not true of belief systems elsewhere. A view that the universe is uncreated, has been around forever, and is just "what happens to be" does not suggest that it has fundamental principles that are rational and discoverable. Other belief systems have considered the natural world to be an insoluble mystery, conceived of it as a realm in which multiple, arbitrary gods are at work, or thought of it in animistic terms. None of these views will, or did, give rise to a deep faith that there is a lawful order imparted by a divine creator that can and should be discovered. Recent scholarship in the history of science reveals that this commitment to rational, empirical investigation of God's creation is not simply a product of the "scientific revolution" of the 16th and 17th centuries, but has profound roots going back at least to the High Middle Ages. The development of the university system in medieval times was, of course, almost entirely a product of the Church. Serious students of the period know that this was neither a time of stagnation, nor of repression of inquiry in favor of dogma. Rather, it was a time of great intellectual ferment and discovery, and the universities fostered rational, empirical, systematic inquiry. A newly published work by Thomas Woods (How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization) is replete with far more examples of the contributions of medieval scholars than can be mentioned here. But as Woods recounts, one need only look at some of the leading figures in the universities in the 1200s to see that they were already well along in the development of principles of empirical scientific inquiry. Roger Bacon, a Franciscan who taught at Oxford, wrote in Opus Maius:
Without experiment, nothing can be adequately known. An argument proves theoretically, but does not give the certitude necessary to remove all doubt; nor will the mind repose in the clear view of truth, unless it finds it by way of experiment.
Albertus Magnus -- prodigious scholar, naturalist, teacher of Thomas Aquinas, and member of the Dominican order -- affirmed in his De Mineralibus that the purpose of science is "not simply to accept the statements of others, that is, what is narrated by people, but to investigate the causes that are at work in nature for themselves." Another 13th-century figure, Robert Grosseteste, who was chancellor of Oxford and Bishop of Lincoln, has been identified as "the first man ever to write down a complete set of steps for performing a scientific experiment," according to Woods. WHEN THE DISCOVERIES of science exploded in number and importance in the 1500s and 1600s, the connection with Christian belief was again profound. Many of the trailblazing scientists of that period when science came into full bloom were devout Christian believers, and declared that their work was inspired by a desire to explore God's creation and discover its glories. Perhaps the greatest scientist in history, Sir Isaac Newton, was a fervent Christian who wrote over a million words on theological subjects [--> Also, note his General Scholium to Principia and Query 31 to Opticks]. Other giants of science and mathematics were similarly devout: Boyle [ --> cf his The Christian Virtuoso, on a Christian Scholar as Scientist], Descartes, Kepler, Leibniz, Pascal. To avoid relying on what might be isolated examples, Stark analyzed the religious views of the 52 leading scientists from the time of Copernicus until the end of the 17th century. Using a methodology that probably downplayed religious belief, he found that 32 were "devout"; 18 were at least "conventional" in their religious belief; and only two were "skeptics." More than a quarter were themselves ecclesiastics: "priests, ministers, monks, canons, and the like." Down through the 19th century, many of the leading figures in science were thoroughgoing Christians. A partial list includes Babbage [--> cf. 9th Bridgewater Thesis, and especially its probability theory based answer to Hume in the face of convergent multiple, agreeing witnesses], Dalton, Faraday, Herschel, Joule, Lyell, Maxwell, Mendel, and Thompson (Lord Kelvin). A survey of the most eminent British scientists near the end of the 19th century found that nearly all were members of the established church or affiliated with some other church. In short, scientists who were committed Christians include men often considered to be fathers of the fields of astronomy, atomic theory, calculus, chemistry, computers, electricity, genetics, geology, mathematics, and physics. In the late 1990s, a survey found that about 40 percent of American scientists believe in a personal God and an afterlife -- a percentage that is basically unchanged since the early 20th century. A listing of eminent 20th-century scientists who were religious believers would be far too voluminous to include here -- so let's not bring coals to Newcastle, but simply note that the list would be large indeed, including Nobel Prize winners. Far from being inimical to science, then, the Judeo-Christian worldview is the only belief system that actually produced it. Scientists who (in Boyle's words) viewed nature as "the immutable workmanship of the omniscient Architect" were the pathfinders who originated the scientific enterprise. The assertion that intelligent design is automatically "not science" because it may support the concept of a creator is a statement of materialist philosophy, not of any intrinsic requirement of science itself. >> ___________ Again, we see the ideology driven distortion of history, here regarding the worldviews roots, nature and origins of modern science. It is time to set the record straight and clear the air. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
03:17 AM
3
03
17
AM
PDT
SB: Back in the ID Foundations series no 1 I discussed the design inference process, including illustrating it as a flowchart. At precisely no point is there any assumption or assertion of the identity or nature of a designer, other than the acceptance that such is possible. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2014
September
09
Sep
26
26
2014
02:58 AM
2
02
58
AM
PDT
WS 24 " Anthropic: “That’s why science was invented in Christian Europe and nowhere else.” That may come as a surprise to the Greeks, the Arabs (who kept inquiry alive while the Europeans were squabbling over Popes) and the Chinese. They may not have followed the modern scientific process, but it worked pretty well for them. --------------------------------------------- Actually, WS, most historians now agree that science was created in Christian Europe, not elsewhere. Aristotle was a great observer, but neither he nor the other Greek philosophers created the scientific method. The Arabs decided that Allah was irrational around 1000 AD, which meant that the idea of a rational, law following universe was "shirk", blasphemy. No wonder they steadily fell behind Christian Europe! The Chinese developed some great technology, such as gunpowder but were slow to utilize it effectively. In any case they never developed the scientific method either, which is why relatively small European nations half a world away could impose their will on the vastly larger Chinese nation by the 1800s.anthropic
September 25, 2014
September
09
Sep
25
25
2014
11:52 PM
11
11
52
PM
PDT
Willliam Spearshake
AVS, exactly. Until they can propose the nature of a designer who isn’t a god, what else can I think?
You can begin by saying something rational. Your statement is as unintelligible as that of AVS. ID doesn't "propose" a designer it "infers" a designer. Like AVS, you begin by claiming that ID "assumes" a designer, but as soon as you are called on it, you change the word to "propose," which can mean just about anything. Try to make sense when you write. It is uncharitable to purposely write in a fog, especially when you are misrepresenting someone else's paradigm. I issue to you the same challenge I put to AVS. Provide a step by step account of ID's inferential process and tell us at exactly what point the religious element is introduced and describe what form it takes.StephenB
September 25, 2014
September
09
Sep
25
25
2014
11:50 PM
11
11
50
PM
PDT
AVS
I would say that both semiosis/irreducible complexity require a designer to define meaning/create a structure-function relationship.
You began by saying that ID "assumes" a designer, but now you have injected in its place the word "requires," which doesn't even come close to meaning the same thing. As it is, your phrase "meaning/create a structure-function relationship" is complete gibberish. Please rewrite your idea in comprehensible prose. Better yet, say something rational. Explain ID's inferential process from beginning to end and tell me exactly at which point the religious element is introduced and what form it takes.StephenB
September 25, 2014
September
09
Sep
25
25
2014
11:31 PM
11
11
31
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply