Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

You can’t have them, atheists!

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The atheist blog Ungodly News has just released a Periodic Table of Atheists and Antitheists. While I admire its artistry, I deplore its lack of accuracy. At least three of the people listed as atheists or anti-theists were nothing of the sort: Albert Einstein, Mark Twain and (in his final days) Jean-Paul Sartre. I realize that the last name will shock many readers. I’ll say more about Sartre anon.

I’m a great admirer of Einstein (who isn’t?) and a fan of Mark Twain, whose house I visited in December 1994. And I thoroughly enjoyed reading Sartre’s Les Mains Sales (Dirty Hands) in high school. When he wrote that play in 1948, Sartre was a militant atheist, but as we’ll see, Sartre’s views changed in his final years. These three authors I treasure, so I say to the atheists: you can’t have them!

There are three more people on Ungodly News’ periodic table who, in the interests of historical accuracy, I have to say don’t belong there either: Charles Darwin, Thomas Henry Huxley and Bill Gates. All three are (or were) agnostics, not atheists, and as I’ll argue below, while these thinkers all reject the claims of revealed religion, none of them deserves to be called an anti-theist. It is an undeniable historical fact, however, that the ideas disseminated by Darwin and Huxley have caused many people to lose their faith in God.

Atheists love to claim Albert Einstein as one of their own, but he was nothing of the sort.

[This post will remain at the top of the page until 6:00 am EST tomorrow, June 28. For reader convenience, other coverage continues below. – UD News]

It is well-known that Albert Einstein rejected belief in an afterlife, and did not believe in a personal God who answered prayers. Nevertheless, he did believe in a Mind manifesting itself in Nature. That was his God. In an interview published in 1930 in G. S. Viereck’s book Glimpses of the Great, Einstein remarked:

I’m absolutely not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza’s pantheism, but admire even more his contribution to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and body as one, and not two separate things. (Frankenberry, Nancy K. 2009. The Faith of Scientists: In Their Own Words. Princeton University Press. p. 153.)

In 1929, Albert Einstein told Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein: “I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.” (Isaacson, Walter, Einstein: His Life and Universe, pp. 388-389, Simon and Schuster, 2008.)

According to Hubertus, Prince of Lowenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg, Einstein said, “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.” (Quoted by Ronald W. Clark, Einstein: The Life and Times, New York: World Publishing Company, 1971, p. 425.)

For an overview of Einstein’s religious views, I’d recommend this article in Wikipedia.

Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) certainly wasn’t an atheist either. As he wrote:

To trust the God of the Bible is to trust an irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle and changeful master; to trust the true God is to trust a Being who has uttered no promises, but whose beneficent, exact, and changeless ordering of the machinery of His colossal universe is proof that He is at least steadfast to His purposes; whose unwritten laws, so far as the affect man, being equal and impartial, show that he is just and fair; these things, taken together, suggest that if he shall ordain us to live hereafter, he will be steadfast, just and fair toward us. We shall not need to require anything more.

— Mark Twain, from Albert Bigelow Paine, Mark Twain, a Biography (1912), quoted from Barbara Schmidt, ed, “Mark Twain Quotations, Newspaper Collections, & Related Resources”.

Was Twain anti-religious? Certainly. But anti-theist? No. Twain loved to make fun of God, but he also believed God was big enough not to be troubled by such mockery:

Blasphemy? No, it is not blasphemy. If God is as vast as that, he is above blasphemy; if He is as little as that, He is beneath it. (Ibid.)

Twain’s views on the afterlife, like his views on Providence, varied throughout his lifetime, but his daughter Clara said of him: “Sometimes he believed death ended everything, but most of the time he felt sure of a life beyond.” (Phipps, William E., Mark Twain’s Religion, p. 304, 2003 Mercer Univ. Press.)

What about Jean-Paul Sartre? According to his personal secretary Benny Levy (a.k.a. Pierre Victor), an ex-Maoist who became an Orthodox Jew in the late 1970s, Sartre had a drastic change of mind about the existence of God and started gravitating toward Messianic Judaism, in the years before his death. This is Sartre’s before-death profession, according to Pierre Victor: “I do not feel that I am the product of chance, a speck of dust in the universe, but someone who was expected, prepared, prefigured. In short, a being whom only a Creator could put here; and this idea of a creating hand refers to God.”

What was Simone de Beauvoir’s reaction, you may be wondering?

“His mistress, Simone de Beauvoir, behaved like a bereaved widow during the funeral. Then she published La ceremonie des adieux in which she turned vicious, attacking Sartre. He resisted Victor’s seduction, she recounts, then he yielded. ‘How should one explain this senile act of a turncoat?’, she asks stupidly. And she adds: ‘All my friends, all the Sartreans, and the editorial team of Les Temps Modernes supported me in my consternation.’

Mme. de Beauvoir’s consternation v. Sartre’s conversion. The balance is infinitely heavier on the side of the blind, yet seeing, old man.”

(National Review, NY, 11 June 1982, p. 677, article by Thomas Molnar, Professor of French and World Literature at Brooklyn College; see also McDowell, Josh and Don Stewart, eds. 1990. Concise Guide to Today’s Religions. Amersham-on-the-Hill, Bucks, England: Scripture Press, p. 477.)

The transformation in Sartre’s political and religious views near the end of his life is revealed in a book of conversations between Sartre and his assistant Benny Levy, conducted shortly before his death, Hope Now: The 1980 Interviews (University of Chicago Press, 1996). The publisher of the book described the changes as follows:

“In March of 1980, just a month before Sartre’s death, Le Nouvel Observateur published a series of interviews, the last ever given, between the blind and debilitated philosopher and his young assistant, Benny Levy.

They seemed to portray a Sartre who had abandoned his leftist convictions and rejected his most intimate friends, including Simone de Beauvoir. This man had cast aside his own fundamental beliefs in the primacy of individual consciousness, the inevitability of violence, and Marxism, embracing instead a messianic Judaism. (…)

Shortly before his death, Sartre confirmed the authenticity of the interviews and their puzzling content. Over the past fifteen years, it has become the task of Sartre scholars to unravel and understand them. Presented in this fresh, meticulous translation, the interviews are framed by two provocative essays by Benny Levy himself, accompanied by a comprehensive introduction from noted Sartre authority Ronald Aronson.

This absorbing volume at last contextualizes and elucidates the final thoughts of a brilliant and influential mind.”

(See Hope Now: The 1980 Interviews, Jean-Paul Sartre and Benny Levy (ed.); translated by Adrian Van den Hoven, with an introduction by Ronald Aronson, University of Chicago Press, 1996).

Curious readers can find out more by having a look at Part II (section 34) of Tihomir Dimitrov’s online book, 50 Nobel Laureates and other great scientists who believed in God.

So, was Jean-Paul Sartre an atheist, or even an anti-theist, at the end of his life? Evidently not.

There are three more names which don’t belong in Ungodly News’ Periodic Table of Atheists and Antitheists:

(1) Charles Darwin. Although his book The Origin of Species undoubtedly caused many readers to lose their religious faith, Darwin himself was not an atheist. As he wrote in a letter to John Fordyce, an author of several works on skepticism, on 7 May 1879: “It seems to me absurd to doubt that a man may be an ardent Theist & an evolutionist… In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. — I think that generally (and more and more so as I grow older), but not always, — that an agnostic would be the most correct description of my state of mind.”

Darwin remained close friends with the vicar of Downe, John Innes, and continued to play a leading part in the parish work of the church. (See this article for more information.)

Atheist? Obviously not. Anti-theist? I think not. The man was an agnostic.

(2) Thomas Henry Huxley. Huxley was an agnostic (a term he coined himself in 1869), rather than an atheist. Here is his account of how he coined the term:

When I reached intellectual maturity and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; Christian or a freethinker; I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until, at last, I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure they had attained a certain “gnosis,”–had, more or less successfully, solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble.

So I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of “agnostic.” It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the “gnostic” of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant. To my great satisfaction the term took. (Huxley, Thomas. Collected Essays, pp. 237–239. ISBN 1-85506-922-9.)

In a letter of September 23, 1860, to Charles Kingsley, Huxley touched on the subject of immortality:

I neither affirm nor deny the immortality of man. I see no reason for believing it, but, on the other hand, I have no means of disproving it.

Pray understand that I have no a priori objections to the doctrine. No man who has to deal daily and hourly with nature can trouble himself about a priori difficulties. Give me such evidence as would justify me in believing in anything else, and I will believe that. Why should I not? It is not half so wonderful as the conservation of force or the indestructibility of matter. Whoso clearly appreciates all that is implied in the falling of a stone can have no difficulty about any doctrine simply on account of its marvellousness.

Or as he put it in another letter to Kingsley, dated May 5, 1863, when discussing the immortality of the soul and the belief in future rewards and punishments:

Give me a scintilla of evidence, and I am ready to jump at them.

According to his Wikipedia biography, Huxley even supported the reading of an edited version of the Bible (shorn of “shortcomings and errors”) in schools. He believed that the Bible’s significant moral teachings and superb use of language were of continuing relevance to English life. As he put it:

“I do not advocate burning your ship to get rid of the cockroaches.”
(THH 1873. Critiques and Addresses, p. 90.)

I submit that while Huxley was certainly a fierce opponent of organized religion, he can hardly be called an anti-theist.

(3) Bill Gates. According to the very link cited by Ungodly News, Bill Gates is an agnostic, not an atheist. In his own words:

In terms of doing things I take a fairly scientific approach to why things happen and how they happen. I don’t know if there’s a god or not, but I think religious principles are quite valid.

Does that sound like the utterance of an “anti-theist” to you? No? I didn’t think so either.

Albert Einstein, Mark Twain, Jean-Paul Sartre, Charles Darwin, Thomas Henry Huxley, Bill Gates – that’s six mistakes altogether. That doesn’t sound like a very accurate periodic table to me. I’d say Ungodly News has got some ‘splainin’ to do!

Comments
KF, what I have done does not meet your definition of hyperskepticism in the least. I have pointed out that BA77 has made a poor argument that relies on shoddy evidence, or evidence that really doesn't prove what he claims it does. That is simple skepticism. Do you think his argument is a good one? Would you espouse it? Berceuse, I stand by my statement. And the argument BA77 gives would not get someone to think twice about materialism/Darwinism, unless they were already doubting it for other, probably social reasons. So I am correct.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
10:50 AM
10
10
50
AM
PDT
See, JesseJoe? I'm not the only one who noticed. And it's not even an issue of right or wrong statements. One could be arguing for one side and technically not say anything false (which you haven't done, anyway). The issue is you not behaving as the impartial thinker you claim to be. To say, "No impartial thinker would reason from the evidence [BA provides] to the conclusion that Christianity or theism is true" is a bold, sweeping statement. It may not result in a clear cut argument for Christianity or theism, but it may be enough to get someone to think twice about materialism/Darwinism, which, for some, will lead them down that path. It certainly isn't an issue of confirming what they "already believe," (just ask Gil) but the fact that you claim it as such is more a projection of yourself.Berceuse
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
10:33 AM
10
10
33
AM
PDT
PS: Let's update on your latest, as in the discussion here by Greenleaf, a founding father of the theory of evidence; read the linked then read on from Ch 1. Let's start with what sort of evidence counts as what degree of warrant in what context, from a classic work. (This on warrant, self-evidence, first principles of right reason and worldviews may be helpful too.)kairosfocus
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
10:13 AM
10
10
13
AM
PDT
JJ: Your line of issues is a bit off topic for UD, but I suggest you start here and here. (It may repay you to read both pages in full, too; especially on the subject of selective hyperskepticism.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
10:07 AM
10
10
07
AM
PDT
Yawn. Here we go again. I think I actually will find a wall and bang my head against it. It might be more productive.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
09:46 AM
9
09
46
AM
PDT
for a even more horrid shock for you Jessejoe,,, Christianity Gave Birth To Each Scientific Discipline - Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer - video http://vimeo.com/16523153 In this short video, Dr. Stephen Meyer notes that the early scientists were Christians whose faith motivated them to learn more about their Creator… Dr. Meyer on the Christian History of Science - video http://www.thetruthproject.org/about/culturefocus/A000000287.cfm A Short List Of The Christian Founders Of Modern Science http://www.creationsafaris.com/wgcs_toc.htm Founders of Modern Science Who Believe in GOD - Tihomir Dimitrov http://www.scigod.com/index.php/sgj/article/viewFile/18/18 The Origin of Science Excerpt: Modern science is not only compatible with Christianity, it in fact finds its origins in Christianity. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/science_origin.html Christianity Is a Science-Starter, Not a Science-Stopper By Nancy Pearcey http://www.pearceyreport.com/archives/2005/09/post_4.phpbornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
09:43 AM
9
09
43
AM
PDT
JesseJoe, as much of a horrid shock as it will be for you, without Theism 'science' would not even be possible!!! Thus, Theism did in fact enable the discovery of those things!!! notes HE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Nuclear Strength Apologetics – Presuppositional Apologetics – video http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/nuclear-strength-apologetics/nuclear-strength-apologetics John Lennox - Science Is Impossible Without God - Quotes - video remix http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6287271/ Materialism simply dissolves into absurdity when pushed to extremes and certainly offers no guarantee to us for believing our perceptions and reasoning within science are trustworthy in the first place: Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ What is the Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism? ('inconsistent identity' of cause leads to failure of absolute truth claims for materialists) (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNg4MJgTFw Can atheists trust their own minds? - William Lane Craig On Alvin Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byN38dyZb-k "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
09:42 AM
9
09
42
AM
PDT
I was speaking according to your characterization of "materialism." As I've noted, materialism is not a monolith and contains all sorts of systems and schools of thought under that heading. But you will admit that theism didn't discover those things, right? And thanks for responding directly to something I said.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
09:08 AM
9
09
08
AM
PDT
Moreover Joe, materialism cannot 'discover the truth' since, if a materialist is being consistent in his worldview, absolute transcendent truth does not exist.bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
09:06 AM
9
09
06
AM
PDT
i.e. materialism is a philosophy Joe!!!bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
09:03 AM
9
09
03
AM
PDT
JesseJoe, this is a fairly blatant 'wrong'; (which by rights you should note that if materialism made the predictions you claim, materialism, and not theism, corrected them and discovered the truth).bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
09:02 AM
9
09
02
AM
PDT
Specifically, then, Berceuse, what have I said that I've been wrong about?JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:55 AM
8
08
55
AM
PDT
JeeseJoe, you come off as someone eager to be a one-way skeptic, rather than an "impartial observer."Berceuse
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:54 AM
8
08
54
AM
PDT
I feel like I am beating my head against a wall here. I tell you why what you are doing is ineffective. Your response is not to consider what I have written or even to reply to it, but rather to do more off it, as if a larger quantity of bad, irrelevant information will somehow impress me. But let me take one more stab at it. You say, "Actually Jessejoe, if you were not so quick to dismiss God, you would find evidence for everything." This is exactly my point. You first believed in god and then you looked around and found evidence that you were correct. That is called rationalizing. Reasoning means looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion from it. No impartial thinker would reason from the evidence you provide to the conclusion that Christianity or theism is true, unless they already believe it. So you need to change your tactics if you want to convince anyone.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:45 AM
8
08
45
AM
PDT
Actually Jessejoe, if you were not so quick to dismiss God, you would find evidence for everything; Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html As Professor Henry pointed out, it has been known since the discovery of quantum mechanics itself, early last century, that the universe is indeed 'Mental', as is illustrated by this quote from Max Planck. "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Max Planck - The Father Of Quantum Mechanics - Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944)(Of Note: Max Planck Planck was a devoted Christian from early life to death, was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though, paradoxically, not necessarily a personal one) This deep 'Christian connection', of Planck, is not surprising when you realize practically every, if not every, founder of each major branch of modern science also ‘just so happened’ to have some kind of a deep Christian connection.) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Max_Planck Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 Ultra-Dense Optical Storage - on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image's worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html ,,, infinite 'specified' information is necessary for the photon to exist!!! etc... etc...bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:38 AM
8
08
38
AM
PDT
Let me elaborate on my second point above so you understand me. You said: "Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space – Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. " So do you mean that someone read the Bible and said, "we should expect wave/particle duality"? No? You mean they just said something like "god is infinitely powerful and transcendent." That certainly, by any objective measure, is not a statement that quantum physics has proven true. Your points are just vague generalities.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:27 AM
8
08
27
AM
PDT
Jessejoe, you are conflating 'science' with materialism, and much like Einstein and Twain, you CAN"T have it!!!bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:21 AM
8
08
21
AM
PDT
Is that a joke? I've seen you post that before numerous times. It really is silly. Where can I begin to criticize it, since it is so faulty? How about this: you act as if "materialism" and "theism" are monolithic entities, but in fact, that's just not true. Both "materialism" and "theism" made all sorts of predictions, both for and against what modern materialist science has determined to be true (which by rights you should note that if materialism made the predictions you claim, materialism, and not theism, corrected them and discovered the truth). Secondly, if the "theism" you're talking about is Christianity, then only in the most vague, poetic sense could Christianity be said to have "predicted" any of this, and it's predictions certainly weren't scientific. Your claim that you used the "scientific method" in the post above is simply wrong. There, so I barely scratched the surface of what is wrong with that silliness you always post.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:18 AM
8
08
18
AM
PDT
Well JesseJoe, lets let the scientific method itself be an 'impartial observer' and see how your atheistic materialism fairs??? the materialistic and Theistic philosophy make, and have made, several natural contradictory predictions about what evidence we will find. These predictions, and the evidence we have found, can be tested against one another within the scientific method. Steps of the Scientific Method http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml For a quick overview, here are a few: 1. Materialism predicted an eternal universe, Theism predicted a created universe. - Big Bang points to a creation event. - 2. Materialism predicted time had an infinite past, Theism predicted time had a creation. - Time was created in the Big Bang. - 3. Materialism predicted space has always existed, Theism predicted space had a creation (Psalm 89:12) - Space was created in the Big Bang. - 4. Materialism predicted that material has always existed, Theism predicted 'material' was created. - 'Material' was created in the Big Bang. 5. Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. - 6. Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 - 2 Timothy 1:9)- 7. Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind - Every transcendent universal constant scientists can measure is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. - 8. Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe - Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe. - 9. Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made - ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a "biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.". - 10. Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth - The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 11. Materialism predicted a very simple first life form which accidentally came from "a warm little pond". Theism predicted God created life - The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 12. Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11) - We find evidence for complex photo-synthetic life in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth - 13. Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life to be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse life to appear abruptly in the seas in God's fifth day of creation. - The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short "geologic resolution time" in the Cambrian seas. - 14. Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record - Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record, then rapid diversity within the group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 15. Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth - Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. - references: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ubha8aFKlJiljnuCa98QqLihFWFwZ_nnUNhEC6m6Cys As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy, from the scientific method, and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. - In fact it is even very good at pointing us to Christianity: General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy & the Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5070355 ,,,for a far more detailed list of failed predictions of neo-Darwinism see Dr. Hunter's site here: Darwin’s Predictions http://www.darwinspredictions.com/bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:49 AM
7
07
49
AM
PDT
BA77, here is one measure of whether evidence is good or not: if it is convincing to an impartial observer. The thing about all the evidence that you give is that you already have to believe in Xtianity to be convinced by it. Now doesn't that strike you as fishy?JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
Jessejoe, and what makes you arbiter of 'good' evidence??? something tells me that you believe in evolution, despite the sheer lack of evidence, and that you disbelieve God despite the abundance of evidence!!! Perhaps you scales are a bit skewered???bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:39 AM
7
07
39
AM
PDT
I didn't say that. Good evidence might. You just haven't ever provided anything remotely resembling good evidence. And as for the rest of what I'm trying to say, I feel I was fairly clear about that, no?JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:36 AM
7
07
36
AM
PDT
So Jessejoe, what are you REALLY trying to say??? No evidence , no matter what it says, will ever convince you of the reality of God, nor of the resurrection of Christ??? Thought so, thanks for clearing that up!!!bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:34 AM
7
07
34
AM
PDT
VJT: Well done, as usual, and Dr Liddle's questions are a refreshingly different take from the sadly usual fare of objections at UD. Dr Liddle, pardon for such a negative first look, you have raised significant thoughts. My own comment is just that we need to be aware that here is a wide spectrum of worldviews out there. Snipping a course summarising from remarks by Evans that give a cross-section in a nutshell:
C. Stephen Evans provides a useful summary[1]: Polytheism: there is a plurality of personal gods, as with the Greeks and Egyptians. Monotheism: there is but one God, the personal being who created all things from nothing, and is supreme in power, knowledge and moral worth. (Sometimes simply called “theism” for short.) Animism: tends to see a High (often, a sky) God, but there is an intermediary chain of sky- and/or earth- bound spirit beings, with whom one must deal in day to day life. Sometimes it is argued that polytheism and monotheism evolved from animism. Agnosticism: the truth about “God” is not, or even cannot be, known; people should suspend judgement on the question. Atheism: Goes beyond this: “God” does not exist, save as an imaginary figure. Henotheism: There is a plurality of gods, but one serves a particular god, either because s/he is superior, or because that is the god of one’s community. Dualism: there are two gods, in mutual opposition – often one is viewed as “good,” the other as “evil.” Pantheism: rejects the concept of God as personal, and identifies God with the cosmos as a whole Panentheism: A variant on pantheism in which God is more than, but includes the universe. Deism: Agrees with theism that there is one God, but holds that God [currently] does not interact with creation. In effect, God made and wound up the clock then lets it run on its own. Absolute monism: God is an absolute unity which is somehow manifest in a less-than-fully-real world of apparent plurality. Naturalism: instead of focusing on the explicit rejection of God, this version of atheism asserts that the natural order we see around us exists on its own; often using materialistic evolutionary theories to try to explain its evolution “from hydrogen to humans.” Trinitarian monotheism: The specifically Christian contention that God is manifest through unity of being (there is but One God) and diversity in person (God is manifest as Father, Son and Spirit). Thus, it holds that the unity of the Godhead is complex rather than simple. Of these, the “live” broad philosophical alternatives seem to be (a) theism, (b) pantheism/ panentheism/ monism and (c) agnosticism/atheism. (In practice, people often blend aspects of the major views – even when this involves logical contradictions; and it is particularly common for animist survivals or fragments to be embedded in other views.) __________ [1] Philosophy of Religion, p. 31 ff, with a few additional notes on animism.
People are going to be all over the place; I add that the human mind is the only known place that contradictions can happily reside in. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PDT
Okay, BA77, I went back and slogged through your link farm. I failed to see how the links you posted offered proof of Christianity. It was as I said-- they only tangentially related to the issues under discussion. Moreover, I've noticed that you continuously post the same links and the same verbiage. You copy and paste from your older posts or from some crib sheet you have. It's like you say, "Ohhh, a topic that tenuously relates to quantum theory! I will post link sheet A!" Here's your thing, though. All this stuff about quantum physics doesn't legitimately convince you or anyone else. It doesn't convince anyone else, because it is factually wrong. It doesn't convince you because it's all a rationalization. You converted to Xtianity for other reasons, and now you are trying to look for evidence that could be stretched and construed to support your conclusion. But you didn't come to that conclusion because of the evidence you found, and neither will anyone else. So all you're doing is making people scroll in order to get to the posts that have substance.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PDT
Hey Jessejoe, You write: -"authors of this site[...]would want to “claim” Einstein and Twain, when both men pointedly repudiated Christianity as silly superstition." I don't think they're "claiming" either to be Christian. They're trying to correct a false assumption that the two didn't believe in a higher power - it appears that both did. The problem comes when people try to claim that either was pure atheist or anti-theist because of their lack of interest in Christianity - which for both appears not to be the case. - SonfaroSonfaro
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:20 AM
7
07
20
AM
PDT
I don't know Jessejoe, you can shrug off the fact that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its ‘uncertain’ 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe, but as for myself,,, Mysto & Pizzi - Somebody's Watching Me - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkf95onRgccbornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
Moreover Jessejoe, though you will probably not read this, from Einstein's work in General Relativity, there is a very strong case to be for God being 'personal' to each one of us!!! ,,, First I noticed that the earth demonstrates centrality in the universe in this video Dr. Dembski posted a while back; The Known Universe - Dec. 2009 - a very cool video (please note the centrality of the earth in the universe) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U ,,, for a while I tried to see if the 4-D space-time of General Relativity was sufficient to explain centrality we witness for the earth in the universe,,, 4-Dimensional Space-Time Of General Relativity - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3991873/ ,,, yet I kept running into the same problem for establishing the sufficiency of General Relativity to explain our centrality in this universe, in that every time I would perform a 'mental experiment' of trying radically different points of observation in the universe, General Relativity would fail to maintain centrality for the radically different point of observation in the universe. The primary reason for this failure of General Relativity to maintain centrality, for different points of observation in the universe, is due to the fact that there are limited (10^80) material particles to work with. Though this failure of General Relativity was obvious to me, I needed more proof so as to establish it more rigorously, so i dug around a bit and found this; The Cauchy Problem In General Relativity - Igor Rodnianski Excerpt: 2.2 Large Data Problem In General Relativity - While the result of Choquet-Bruhat and its subsequent refinements guarantee the existence and uniqueness of a (maximal) Cauchy development, they provide no information about its geodesic completeness and thus, in the language of partial differential equations, constitutes a local existence. ,,, More generally, there are a number of conditions that will guarantee the space-time will be geodesically incomplete.,,, In the language of partial differential equations this means an impossibility of a large data global existence result for all initial data in General Relativity. http://www.icm2006.org/proceedings/Vol_III/contents/ICM_Vol_3_22.pdf and also 'serendipitously' found this,,, THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: Gödel's personal God is under no obligation to behave in a predictable orderly fashion, and Gödel produced what may be the most damaging critique of general relativity. In a Festschrift, (a book honoring Einstein), for Einstein's seventieth birthday in 1949, Gödel demonstrated the possibility of a special case in which, as Palle Yourgrau described the result, "the large-scale geometry of the world is so warped that there exist space-time curves that bend back on themselves so far that they close; that is, they return to their starting point." This means that "a highly accelerated spaceship journey along such a closed path, or world line, could only be described as time travel." In fact, "Gödel worked out the length and time for the journey, as well as the exact speed and fuel requirements." Gödel, of course, did not actually believe in time travel, but he understood his paper to undermine the Einsteinian worldview from within. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html But if General Relativity is insufficient to explain the centrality we witness for ourselves in the universe, what else is? Universal Quantum wave collapse to each unique point of observation! To prove this point I dug around a bit and found this experiment,,, This following experiment extended the double slit experiment to show that the 'spooky actions', for instantaneous quantum wave collapse, happen regardless of any considerations for time or distance i.e. The following experiment shows that quantum actions are 'universal and instantaneous': Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm ,, and to make universal quantum Wave collapse much more 'personal' I found this,,, "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays "Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays"; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. http://eugene-wigner.co.tv/ Here is the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries: Eugene Wigner Excerpt: To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm i.e. In the experiment the 'world' (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a 'privileged center'. This is since the 'matrix', which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is 'observer-centric' in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its ‘uncertain’ 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:04 AM
7
07
04
AM
PDT
Why don't Einstein's scientific errors count against his theism? A strange question. Because when he was making said errors, he was doing so scientifically, not theologically. And his "theism"-- which can't much be called theism at all-- is so lose and metaphorical that it has little if any relation to scientific errors. Your suggestion, of course, is that these errors count against the "thesis of materialism," and-- using the classic Either-Or fallacy creationists love to employ in the evolution/ID "debate"-- must therefore be evidence for your brand of anthropomorphic religion. Sorry, your logic is all wet.JesseJoe
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:03 AM
7
07
03
AM
PDT
Jessejoe, thus my long post, for which you personally did not feel inclined to read, that showed Einstein, in so far as his actual work was concerned, supports the Christian contention of Christ's resurrection from the dead.bornagain77
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:00 AM
7
07
00
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply