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Is there a transitional in princple for these hearts?

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Yeah, only in Dawkins’ dreams.

Look at the right atrium in these four creatures from Encyclopedia Britannica:

reptile hearts

How did that right atrium evolve from one side to the other along with changes in its connection to the pulmonary artery? In the crocodile and snake the right atrium is on the right ventricle but in the lizard and turtle they are on the left ventricle.

Look at the aortas. In the lizard they are all on left ventricle, in the snake on the right ventricle, and then split for the turtles and crocodiles. How did those aortas migrate from on ventricle to the other without the transitionals being lethal?

Study the picture more and you’ll see, the Intelligent Designer seems almost to have a sense of humor in exploring the various implementations.

Darwinists will say, “we have sequence comparisons that demonstrate the similarity, therefore the transitionals had to exist”, but someone with an engineering mind would say, “so what did the transitionals look like without killing the organism?”

Is neutral evolution in play? No, because lethal changes aren’t neutral. Did natural selection cause the change? No, because natural selection would prevent the change. How about blind luck mutation. That’s possible if there are multiverses.

Wd40 accuses me of not naming one transitional that can’t exist in principle. Well above you have 4 transitionals that don’t exist in principle. Connecting these hearts via Darwinian evolution doesn’t exist even in principle. What were the functional transitionals as the atrium migrated from on ventricle to the other, or the aortas migrating from one ventricle to the other?

On could say, “Sal you have it all wrong, they all evolved from the 2-chambered heart”. 😯 Well that only makes the problem worse, not better! The above hearts are not 2-chambered. See below to understand the difficulty. But first, I note, I’m not the first to raise the issue. One brave ID student challenged his biology teacher as recounted by this atheist student:

There’s a fellow in my class who is quite religious, we both enjoy a good discussion about life. He is a Christian (who believes VERY strongly in intelligent design) while i am a Atheist.

One topic came up in class about how the heart could have evolved from 2 chambers to 3 (and i suppose a 4 chamber heart), our science teacher couldn’t answer the question to which he replied “Than why teach it?” (He often says that, gets on my nerves a bit, but I’d rather let it be).

After class i came up to him and told him I’d have a answer for him, time went on and i forgot about it, but I’d love to answer the question for him. I couldn’t seem to find anything about it in wikipedia or google, so i figure maybe a message board dedicated to science may have the answer.

http://cosmoquest.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-63125.html

Here is the difficulty. The wiring from 2-chambered (fish) to 3-chambered (some reptiles) is pretty difficult. It can’t happen in gradual steps. Not only does the 3rd chamber have to come into existence, there has to be a major simultaneous plumbing overhaul. After that, then you have to account for the different plumbing above for the non-2-chambered hearts. The transitionals would be lethal in each step.

ideacenter 2-chambered, 3-chambered hearts

No wonder the biology teacher could not describe the transitional!

PS
1. The evolution from 3-chambered to 4-chambered might not be so bad, but again, what about the wiring? If the chambers are wired differently, then the evolution via slow incremental changes would be precluded. I mentioned earlier the difficulty of evolving from 3-chambered to 4-chambered, but upon further consideration, I think the problem evolving 2-chambered to 3-chambered or the diagram above are more pointed arguments.

2. Apparently 3-chambered hearts are often viewed as having one ventricle, but the Encyclopedia Britanica describes the single ventricle as being 2 (one right and one left), but it doesn’t matter that much when considering the position of the right atrium and other plumbing.

Comments
Alan Fox:
The genotype does not contain blueprints of adult organisms.
Then where is it? And does that mean that genetic changes cannot account for the physiological differences observed? If so you have just destroyed your position.
How organisms develop from embryos is crucial in understanding evolutionary change.
So if organisms develop by design then they evolve by design. I agree.Joe
July 19, 2013
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@ cantor: Much as I had a soft spot for John Davison, I was never swayed by saltation! Necessity?Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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How organisms develop from embryos is crucial in understanding evolutionary change.
That's not a controversial statement. In the context in which you posted, it seemed like you were trying to rehabilitate Richard Goldschmidt.cantor
July 19, 2013
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Sal’s mispresentation that WD400 and what CLAVDIVS picked up on. The genotype does not contain blueprints of adult organisms. How organisms develop from embryos is crucial in understanding evolutionary change.
Yeah, you (along with the other two) are still not tackling what was originally questioned. Try upping the old reading comprehension, and give it another go by addressing the actual point.TSErik
July 19, 2013
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Alan Fox
The genotype does not contain blueprints of adult organisms. A lot of IDers seem to think that "Darwinists" think that it does.
Elizabeth B Liddle
July 19, 2013
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As in, what were you suggesting (claiming?) with your one-word post @2.
Sal's mispresentation that WD400 and what CLAVDIVS picked up on. The genotype does not contain blueprints of adult organisms. How organisms develop from embryos is crucial in understanding evolutionary change.Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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...is that a relatively simple and easily understood [random] change in genetic signalling can cause a phenotypic transition from a single-chambered heart to a multi-chambered heart...
All Darwinian evolution is "a relatively simple and easily understood [random] change in genetic signalling". From ameba to man is all "a relatively simple and easily understood [random] change". Ok, so it is how complexity comes from simplicity. But, to be precise, don't forget the [random] adjective prescribed by neo-Darwinism.niwrad
July 19, 2013
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How many mutations does it take to get an organism with a 4-chambered heart from an organism with a 3-chambered heart?Joe
July 19, 2013
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Embryotic development does not = transitionals.Joe
July 19, 2013
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scordova @ 37 Thanks for the response. I posted that information purely to rebut the claim in the OP that the transition from a single-chambered to a multi-chambered heart was impossible "in principle" because the "transitionals would be lethal in each step". Such transitionals are observed not to be impossible in principle, and they are not lethal "in each step", as claimed.CLAVDIVS
July 19, 2013
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niwrad @ 34 There's no equivocation by me niwrad.
To say that “even if we don’t know where something came from, we can still observe how it works” equivocates the issue. To observe “how it works” and “to explain how it originates from zero” are two different things.
??????????? That's exactly what I've been saying. How something works and how something originated are two different things. We can observe how something works even if we don't know how it originated, because the two are different things. And what we observe, in the area of fetal heart development, is that a relatively simple and easily understood change in genetic signalling can cause a phenotypic transition from a single-chambered heart to a multi-chambered heart. Thus, the claim in the OP that such a transition is impossible "in principle" because the “transitionals would be lethal in each step” is refuted by what we can actually observe.CLAVDIVS
July 19, 2013
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We actually have videos of viable fetal transitionals – see the link @ 22.
Your link was to Ciona intestinalis not a human. Further, "fetal" usually refers to development of embryo inside the mother, which is not the case for Ciona intestinalis. Did the tadpoles live to adulthood and reproduce identical phenotypes? Not that I could see in the paper, as far as I could tell, the changes were effectively lethal to the formation of a functional adult. Were the tadpoles able to swim? Did they mature? This looks more like an abortion than evolution of a new creature. Thanks anyway for the informative links.scordova
July 19, 2013
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AF@15 wrote: It’s the process by which multicellular organisms develop from embryos. There’s a whole new (well, quite new) field of study called evolutionary developmental biology (evo-devo for short)that looks at how the process is orchestrated.
I know what embryology is. I did not ask "What is embryology?" I asked "What do you mean by “embryology”?" As in, what were you suggesting (claiming?) with your one-word post @2.cantor
July 19, 2013
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Joe @ 33 Joe, if you run your hands up over your cheeks towards your forehead, you will find two holes filled with jelly. These are called eyes. Please use them and READ the OP where you will see it claims the transitions between single- to multi-chambered hearts cannot happen "in principle" because the "transitionals would be lethal in each step". The OP does not say "there are transitionals, but they require a designer", which is apparently your position. It says transitionals are impossible, with which both you and I apparently disagree. So why are you arguing with me?CLAVDIVS
July 19, 2013
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Joe: If the blind watchmaker cannot explain embryology, then it is a given that it cannot explain anything that requires it.
Joe is perfectly right. An individual arises from an embryo development in toto. The embryo development is the causation chain leading to the individual, its final effect. If this causation chain is unknown, the origin of the individual is unknown. To say that "even if we don’t know where something came from, we can still observe how it works" equivocates the issue. To observe "how it works" and "to explain how it originates from zero" are two different things.niwrad
July 19, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
And when we observe fetal heart development we can see how a simple change in genetic signalling changes the heart from one to two chambers.
And as far as anyone knows that happens by design.
THAT is the explanation for the transition that the OP said didn’t exist.
No, it isn't. You need to explain how that genetic signaling arose via blind watchmaker processes. And you cannot.Joe
July 19, 2013
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Joe @ 30 Yes, we can observe how something works. And when we observe fetal heart development we can see how a simple change in genetic signalling changes the heart from one to two chambers. THAT is the explanation for the transition that the OP said didn't exist. Lets grant to you for the sake of this point that the whole developmental process was designed. Nevertheless, the transition is not inexplicable on current knowledge, so the OP was incorrect to suggest so, which was my only point.CLAVDIVS
July 19, 2013
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We actually have videos of viable fetal transitionals
They ain't transitionals! It is development...Joe
July 19, 2013
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CLAVDIVS FAIL:
“If chemistry cannot explain the origin of atoms, then it cannot explain anything that requires atoms.”
That has nothing to do with what I said.
That is because, even if we don’t know where something came from, we can still observe how it works.
LoL! You can observe how it works but you cannot say that the blind watchmaker didit. And THAT is what is being discussed- what can blind watchmaker evolution do.
My kids wouldn’t have a clue where iPhones come from or how they are made but they are pretty good at figuring out how to work them without any help at all.
I bet they know IPhones are DESIGNED and as such work the way they were DESIGNED to work.Joe
July 19, 2013
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Scordova @ 27 We actually have videos of viable fetal transitionals - see the link @ 22.CLAVDIVS
July 19, 2013
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Joe @ 25
If the blind watchmaker cannot explain embryology, then it is a given that it cannot explain anything that requires it.
Epic logic fail. "If chemistry cannot explain the origin of atoms, then it cannot explain anything that requires atoms." is obviously preposterous. That is because, even if we don't know where something came from, we can still observe how it works. My kids wouldn't have a clue where iPhones come from or how they are made but they are pretty good at figuring out how to work them without any help at all.CLAVDIVS
July 19, 2013
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What Alan is referring to: http://www.fi.edu/learn/heart/development/development.html
During the fetal heart's developmental stages, the heart actually takes on several distinct appearances. These heart structures resemble other animal hearts. During phase one, the tube-like heart is much like a fish heart. The second phase, with two chambers, resembles a frog heart. The three-chambered phase is similar to a snake or turtle heart. The final four-chambered heart structure distinguishes the human heart.
But not so fast, Darwinists! How can this development happen, it is mediated by a developmental program, not random mutation followed by selection, further it happens under the protection of the mother's womb. Those stages happen by week 7, but the fetus has zero survival even by week 20 outside of the womb. So to claim that the "transitionals" would survive own is not supported by the evidence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability If one wants to say this looks like evolution, it looks more like front-loaded evolution rather than Darwinian evolution! So the intermediate stages are not viable while the fetus is being constructed. The intermediate stages are clearly lethal without nurturing and would die in the wild. A fish with a 2-chambered heart out in the water does not have a mother's womb and a developmental program to guide the stages. The transitionals don't exist in principle in the wild and out in the open. Thus the OP stands. PS Because of the suggestion of evolution by the human heart development in the womb, Leo Berg said phylogeny recapitulates ontogeny (the reverse of Haeckel), emphasizing his belief in front-loaded evolution. He argued there are examples where more primitive species in their developmental stages seemed to have anticipatory analogs in future species. He argued the trajectory of evolution seemed to follow a program like the trajectory of development. Although I don't share Berg's views, he was right to say, if there was evolution, it was non-Darwinian but seem to follow a predetermined plan.scordova
July 19, 2013
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CLAVDIVS- Embryology does NOT help you because you cannot account for embryology. And embryology has nothing to do with transitional forms.Joe
July 19, 2013
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To invoke “embryology” to explain these transitions makes no sense because embryology has to be explained in the first place…
Nonsense.
Of course Alan would say that- he has no choice.
Science works very well by chopping up problems into pieces and tackling them piecemeal.
If the blind watchmaker cannot explain embryology, then it is a given that it cannot explain anything that requires it.Joe
July 19, 2013
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blockquote>If you are genuinely interested you may need to venture beyond this site. Or not! Thanks for the link, CLAVDIVS.Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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That is OK Alan. Your position doesn't seem to be able to quantify anything. It's as if it likes be anti-science.Joe
July 19, 2013
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Old news. The genetic and developmental basis of how multiple heart chambers form has been identified and, indeed, the transformation of a single-chamber heart into a functional multi-chamber heart in tadpoles has been demonstrated - with videos! FGF signaling delineates the cardiac progenitor field in the simple chordate, Ciona intestinalis See in particular Figure 7.CLAVDIVS
July 19, 2013
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To invoke “embryology” to explain these transitions makes no sense because embryology has to be explained in the first place...
Nonsense. Science works very well by chopping up problems into pieces and tackling them piecemeal.Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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And if you think keiths is clever...
Only relatively speaking. I couldn't quantify it. Like intelligence, cleverness is impossible to quantify. :)Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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Darwinian macroevolution would involve countless situations as this about the hearts. To invoke "embryology" to explain these transitions makes no sense because embryology has to be explained in the first place, and Darwinism is incapable to do it, as is incapable to explain the final stage of the embryo for every species. This is a key point. What Darwinists don't understand is they should explain not only the causes of the differences in the adult individuals, but ALSO the differences in their embryo developments. So, in truth, the problem of macroevolution is far more complex than thought. But what's the problem when one dreams...niwrad
July 19, 2013
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