Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
VL, on plumb lines vs crooked yardsticks, it should be clear that we are speaking metaphorically. The point is, a plumb line is NATURALLY straight and upright so at building tech level precision, it allows us to tell whether we have built true, plumb and level. For the latter, a set square equilateral right triangle with a plumb line from the right angle vertex allows setting the level where the sea or a big lake is not visible on the horizon. I have seen Egyptian examples and hardware stores sell similar triangles plumb bobs and line even now. Of course, we have gone all laser with electronics and built in processors for high tech work; there is of course an app for that too. The point is, there is an infinity of varieties of crookedness, no two of which will match. Any two plumb lines will agree, as they rely on inherent natural principles. So, we look to a composite, the set of self-evident first principles and duties of reason to test cultural artifacts comparable to yardsticks set in the court building's wall. Which in medieval Europe notoriously differed from one town to the next. In France, reputedly there were 150k standards of measure before the metric system was introduced. Earlier, the British system was the first coherent system of weights and measures, though of course it uses many odd seeming ratios and sub units. As recently as over the past century, differences in the inch were industrial problems and Johannsen [sp?] of Sweden more or less set the industrial standard with their set of measuring blocks at 2.54 cm per inch, even. The point is, plumb lines count. KF PS: See above to SA2 on how the first duties come into play in sorting out both deductive and inductive reasoning. Cicero was right in his summary on highest reason. PPS: As there is a mathematical side, I note that things for metrology start with a perfectly flat and level surface. Three nearly flat surfaces -- cast iron seems best, most stable -- are rubbed against one another (with abrasives etc) until they agree to optically tested mutual flatness; these days interferometry is used. There is geometry involved. Then, straight edges can be established. Measuring blocks sets -- Jo blocks -- standardise and are set up so they give over 100 k differing standard lengths. They are so perfect they stick together on being brought together, with a fair degree of strength. There are debates on the dynamics involved. Of course a perfect square block will vertically match another while sitting on a proper flat. A straight edge will match the flat. Ultimately, measures trace to the ISO standards and seven base units.kairosfocus
March 19, 2021
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SA2, the set of off topic toxic distractors were addressed in a prior thread. There is material reference linked above. I simply direct you further to this odd little fallacy/figure of speech, duly noting the import of the principle of explosion, [p AND ~p] => [ANYTHING], i.e. loss of discernment in chains of reasoning. This thread is about far deeper more central issues that lie behind the framework that allows us to disentangle our thinking. Where, if we struggle with self-evident first steps of reasoning then we cannot hope to address onward issues. Our intellectual, academic and professional elites have done a grave disservice to our civilisation in recent centuries, and we need to realise that before anything else. To begin to fix such, we need to go back to self evident first steps, steps which we can see to be so independent of chains of implication or discussions on inference to best explanation or weighing up of prudence, bitter compromises (just about always necessary) and sound reform. KF PS: The role of implication logic is central, both as proof structure and explanation structure. That is:
Where, p => q, we are often tempted to reason p => q but I reject q, so I reject p, however, when p is self-evident, that rejection clings to absurdity: I reject p, but p is self evident means ~p is absurd [in various ways] However, we can arbitrarily redefine terms, manipulate opinion, play lawfare, build up corrupted systems and the like to support ~p, especially when entrenched interests and ideological agendas are at stake. History since 1789 and especially from 1917 speaks on this in rivers of blood and tears. Such leads to a breakdown of rationality, organisations, societies and more. Likewise, where q is a composite of observations o1, o2 . . . on We may ask, which p currently best explains such of p1, p2 . . . pm At an earlier stage, we may examine the set of observations to sketch out possible explanations. This is abductive reasoning, a key form of modern sense inductive logic. We propose criteria of ranking, typically tied to factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power [ elegantly simple, not simplistic or ad hoc] This introduces issues of discernment and judgement as is typical of inductive reasoning In this process, self evident first principles and duties are involved but are not generally sufficient to determine the overall decision. Prudence becomes pivotal and so the habitual discipline to build it up is vital to intellectual thriving. Factual adequacy is an appeal to truth [and, when is a claimed fact so is material]. Coherence is an appeal to right reason and principles of logic including distinct identity and close corollaries non contradiction and excluded middle. Explanatory balance involves discernment and the whole involves prudence including the judgement when a conclusion is well warranted. So, when such are systematically undermined in a culture, the ability to think reliably and soundly is undermined. For practical import, look all around.
Our civilisation is in deep, deep trouble.kairosfocus
March 19, 2021
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Does this mean, opposite sex marriage good, same sex marriage bad? I really can’t tell from your comment.Steve Alten2
March 18, 2021
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VL, I need not further address the intrinsically disordered or its specific details for purposes of this thread; one UD thread was enough to make the basic points and the unresponsiveness to accessible evidence underscores the point. You also clearly have no answer to the direct evidence of history on the power of recognising the core of law as highest reason addressing justice, as for example we saw expressed in a state paper that is in fact the charter for modern constitutional democracy. Notice, insofar as that state paper succeeded as per the understanding of law outlined, it has universal jurisdiction. That is the power of natural law reasoning, a power that opened up a whole new province of government beyond oligarchy, with the need for stabilisation from the culture that is being so ill advisedly undermined especially since 1917. I know of impacts of the US DoI as far away as Japan in that day, with a world of beneficial impacts down to today. BTW, I have claimed no special access to the substance of right reason applied to justice, I have explicitly appealed to classics from Cicero to the US DoI, only claiming to summarise and structure. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2021
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Seeing as that most creationists still accept natural selection theory, then asserting natural selection as being God's law, might basically make them nazi's. Framing morality by natural law can only be attempted, if people have a keen understanding of the difference between objective and subjective. Religion is easily corruptible, in that one can easily switch what is properly subjective, to assert it is objective. One can easily assert the acting aspect of the objective universe is what is meant by God, and assert that the soul, is another word for the objective electrochemical reactions, and information processes, in the brain. So then subjecitivity emotions are out the window. None of you, as far as I've read, are true creationists. None of you separate creator and creation, as the creator category being what is subjective, and the creation category being what is objective. To frame civil law in terms of laws of nature, it requires to see nature in terms of decisionmaking processes. Man has natural rights, because their brain is organized for some kind of centralized decisionmaking. Then there are lower to higher level decisionmaking processes, instinct being already a pretty high level of decisionmaking, and reasoning being the highest level of decisionmaking. At the lowest level of decisionmaking would be some kind of torrent of randomness. The decisionmaking processes ought to be properly organized, where what is proper is some kind of hodge podge of many morals, with maybe some few general rules that stand out. Someone who would put their mind to it, and make a job of it, could come up with some worthwhile ideas about it. But currently what I see is that people don't understand even the basics of what it means to make a decision. Most importantly, do not comprehend that the decider is categorically subjective, and that what is decided is categorically objective.mohammadnursyamsu
March 18, 2021
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Just FYI: KF, I don't believe you use "ad hom" correctly. What you think is "inherently disordered" and "in the sewer" I don't, and I don't believe your opinion has any special access to "natural law" et al. I think this highlights what is wrong with the thesis of your OP. That is my summation of the discussion.Viola Lee
March 18, 2021
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JVL, though core natural law is endorsed in the NT, the natural law is not a religious document. Further to this, "love" is not merely a feeling that justifies doing as one pleases; feelings are one road to wrong. The decades old cartoon lampooning of the skunk in love with a cat who cannot figure out sound courtship or understand no, seems to have figured that out. A proper understanding of neighbour love is that one values, cherishes and does the good towards the neighbour. Where, neighbour is non exclusive, hence the point that one cannot justly claim a right to compel another to lie, or to enable evils under false colour of law: I love neighbour A and demand of neighbour B that he lie in the face of what he knows to support what I demand regarding A fails, and compelling B to enable other wrongs does not work. The Minister who held a senior officer's job hostage to his nightly dates with the officer's wife was seriously wrong, even if the wife wanted the relationship (which I doubt). True rights and freedoms are mutual and universalisable -- the point of universality of natural law. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2021
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VL, you can try the ad hom all you want, we have had enough delving on the intrinsically disordered already. It is clear that there is no good reason to dismiss the existence of self evident truths in general and on moral ones that set up law as highest reason applied to justice as due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. To top off, you have no cogent answer to the history documented in state papers. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2021
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JVL, If you think the New Testament is about allowing deviant sexual practices, you are truly missing the point. Perhaps attempting to read the New Testament to begin with would be a good start. (Because it sounds like you don't know what is in it) Andrewasauber
March 18, 2021
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Viola Lee: There is not one “correct” position based on “natural law” on moral situations. Human beings have to choose the truths they are going to live by. That is what being a free, moral being means. Obviously, I would say. Let's see what Kairosfocus says. One might say that Love is the message (based on the New Testament) should be the central, core paradigm. First support, listen, and help. If you truly, really love your fellow human beings then what is a sin would be a violation of that basic tenet. To reduce that down to injunctions against certain physical practices is truly missing the whole point.JVL
March 18, 2021
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A group of Catholic priests are vowing to bless same-sex unions in defiance of recent guidance from the Vatican. The group, called the Parish Priests Initiative, said in a statement that it is “deeply appalled” by the decision and vowed to “not reject any loving couple who ask to celebrate God’s blessing," according to Reuters. “We members of the Parish Priests Initiative are deeply appalled by the new Roman decree that seeks to prohibit the blessing of same-sex loving couples. This is a relapse into times that we had hoped to have overcome with Pope Francis,” the group reportedly said. “We will — in solidarity with so many — not reject any loving couple in the future who ask to celebrate God’s blessing, which they experience every day, also in a worship service,” they continued.
There is not one "correct" position based on "natural law" on moral situations. Human beings have to choose the truths they are going to live by. That is what being a free, moral being means.Viola Lee
March 18, 2021
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Viola Lee: Any worldview which leads to such a condemnatory view of critical and important aspects of the lives of a substantial percentage of your fellow human beings is wrong. Ah, but you don't believe in sin, Kairosfocus does. What for you (and me) is an alternate life-style is wrong in the eyes of God for Kairosfocus. It's not him making the judgement, it's God. I expect he will say something like that but at much greater length.JVL
March 18, 2021
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Your saying that the discussion of same-sex relationships is in the sewers negates all your philosophy, KF. Any worldview which leads to such a condemnatory view of critical and important aspects of the lives of a substantial percentage of your fellow human beings is wrong. Your yardstick is crooked, KF.Viola Lee
March 18, 2021
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VL, It seems your core disagreement is with the concept of self-evident truth that can serve as a plumb line for evaluating claims. So, let us start with a few plumb line, self-evident truths, to establish existence:
1] || + ||| --> |||||, symbolically, 2 + 3 = 5; undeniable on pain of absurdity and demonstrating that the class is non-empty. Split your fingers into a two set and a three set, join them as a five set. 2] The Josiah Royce proposition: E - error exists. This is manifestly familiar from sums exercises with red X's. But it is not just a massively empirically supported truth and one that is a general consensus. It is undeniable. Let the denial be ~E. Already to assert ~E entails, it would be an error to assert E. So, undeniably, E. E is true, undeniably, necessarily, self evidently true. It is also warranted to incorrigible certainty. It is empirically discoverable and a widespread consensus. It is known truth. Accordingly, general skepticism denying possibility of knowledge, fails. So do radical relativism and subjectivism, which deny the possibility of objectively warranted and undeniably demonstrated knowledge. 3] Moral case study and yardstick I: it is self evidently wrong, willfully wicked, inherently criminal and evil to kidnap, bind, sexually torture and murder a young child for one's pleasure. Those who deny or dismiss or evade this do not overthrow the truth, they simply reveal their absurdities or worse. This also shows that the weak and inarticulate have rights and are owed justice. Might does not make right, manipulation does not make rights out of thin air.
In short, self evident truths exist and moral SETs exist. Such serve as plumb lines that test our cultural, institutional and cultural yardsticks, and can expose their crookedness and failure to be upright. And yes, that is a metaphor that any builder will understand; it takes sophisticated manipulation to reduce people to ignorance on such. Next, here is my actual argument, a natural law argument, which actually is a summary of the framework that built the liberation and created the constitutional democracy that we are currently wrecking, in many, many ill-advised ways -- a mutiny on the ship of state:
We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. "Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour; so also, to fairness and justice etc. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.
Now, notice, these are top-level, summary principles. Indeed, each of them is worth a monograph to draw out, but just to list them is a place to begin. To see their force, ask why their opposites are unacceptable. These summarise in effect right, highest reason directed to justice, i.e. they frame law coeval with our nature as finite, fallible but rational, responsible social creatures who need the civil peace of justice to thrive. Justice, being due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. Cicero, and those who went before him, got us pointed in the right direction. Though it would take many changes starting with the printing revolution to get us to enjoy the full bloom of what is latent in these principles. Namely, a stabilisable, so potentially sustainable political space beyond oligarchy. Constitutional democracy pivoting on sound principles of justice. Including, a sound, mutually consistent understanding of rights and freedoms in balance with duties with rule of sound law. That is what is being undermined in our time through ill-justified mutiny that predictably will return us to the average situation in history: lawless oligarchy. Which is already stalking our civilisation, it has been doing that since 1917. As, the ghosts of over 100 million victims of ideological tyrannies can tell us, likewise, over 800 million victims of robbing the unborn of recognition of their right to life. Now, obviously, the seven principles do not directly dictate Constitutions or frameworks for law and the state. They allow us to prudently judge how to make progress, building on the hard-bought lessons bequeathed to us. Let me put on the table as a specific example, a key, explicitly natural law document which is the historic charter of modern liberty and democracy:
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God [--> natural law context is explicit] entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15; note, law as "the highest reason," per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal [--> note, equality of humanity], that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [--> thus there are correlative duties and freedoms framed by the balance], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
This is the sort of document of law that the first principles help us to frame. Indeed, I dare to say, the US DoI, in key respects, is -- as a valid, natural law document -- of universal jurisdiction rising above consensus or commonality of the nations, ius gentium. That is why it was so radical then and it is why it remains radical and powerful today. Of course, along the road, many painful compromises had to be struck, as can be seen in the US Constitution and amendments. That too is part of the picture, prudence dictates toleration and compromises when changes are not yet feasible. If you doubt, ponder prohibition in the US which only ended up strengthening organised crime. At the same time, we see that reforms must be just, there can be no just right or freedom to impose evils on others or to force them to enable evils. If you want to claim a novel right or freedom, the onus is to show yourself in the right and how you are not usurping power over others under false colour of law. (I have again linked on such earlier today, on relevant issues and hobby horses, there is no need to climb down into the sewers.) So, no, we do not tell truth by the clock or justice by agit prop and lawfare. And, history has to be answered to. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2021
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KF uses his plumb bob/yardstick
And yet you do the same. Didn't you just try to use a human characteristic to argue for a law?
emphasize that there is one true answer
Did he do that? I see him advocating what he believes is best but not one true answer. There may be one true answer to most questions but that is not what is under discussion here. What is under discussion is if we use right reason that flows from human nature, we will find superior laws.
all the rest are wrong.
Most things are wrong. Do you not agree with that? Human society advances by eliminating what may be appealing to all or some at one time but wrong.jerry
March 18, 2021
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I wrote, "1. Claiming that there is one plumb bob, one straight yardstick, and all others are crooked, is the theme of the OP." ET replied, "No, it isn't" From the first paragraph:
The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.
[My emphasis] KF uses his plumb bob/yardstick to emphasize that there is one true answer that obeys the "built in law", and that all the rest are wrong.Viola Lee
March 18, 2021
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Viola:
1. Claiming that there is one plumb bob, one straight yardstick, and all others are crooked, is the theme of the OP.
No, it isn't.
2. Bringing up the variety of ways that human beings experience sexuality is a case in point. Being interested in how people find love and companionship is a critical issue in today’s world. It is an example of the real-word complexity about moral issues that KF does not know how to address.
So murderers and rapists should be pardoned because that is how they find love and companionship? Just because we are bastardized versions of the original doesn't mean there isn't one objective morality. It just means that we have lost our way. And people like Viola, Acartia and all a/ mats exemplify that.ET
March 18, 2021
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1. Claiming that there is one plumb bob, one straight yardstick, and all others are crooked, is the theme of the OP. I don't agree with that, and summarized my position at 1138. 2. Bringing up the variety of ways that human beings experience sexuality is a case in point. Being interested in how people find love and companionship is a critical issue in today's world. It is an example of the real-word complexity about moral issues that KF does not know how to address. 3. But KF thinks this is a "sewer" topic. That says a great deal about KF's problems, but it doesn't address the purpose of the example, which is to show that there is not some one correct stand on moral issues. KF's own position on this is based on emotions (primarily disgust, it seems), not the qualities of conscience, neighborliness, fairness, and justice that he claims are inherent duties. 4. The fact that same-sex relationships has been discussed before is irrelevant. KF's "right reason" philosophy has been discussed dozens of times before. Does that mean he should quit posting about it now?Viola Lee
March 18, 2021
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Kf, The OP is obvious. The issue is that it is also obvious to those who don’t share your worldview. So they attack the obvious with distractions/distortions because your worldview ideas are deplorable (to use a recent infamous American word) to them not the logic of the OP. They cannot justify their own worldview because it has no justification other than assertions and emotions. So they use defenses such as others do not believe or point to what they believe are inconsistencies in your worldview whether actual or not. Your worldview is not perfect so it must be wrong begging the question that no other worldview comes close to making any sense. They are not here to advocate but to discredit in any way they can. They are not unintelligent and often actually quite clever. But they are not driven by wishing others well but only to undermine. So trying to use reason and evidence is fruitless. I first appeared on this forum 15 years ago. Nothing has changed. Just the names commenting. UD is a microcosm of the world and if you go to other forums, the same phenomenon appears even with the highly educated. You will not win anybody over. Just look at the hundreds of times they have been shown wrong only to move on to some other supposed criticism or shortcoming. Obviously, it frequently gets personal.jerry
March 18, 2021
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Upright BiPed: You were so eager to attack ID proponents that you actually used it as an opportunity to suggest that my siblings and I were cheating the facility with our demands. I would just like to say, clearly and unambiguously, that if I said that or implied that I completely and utterly apologise. I don't remember the complete context; I'd like to think I was misunderstood and clarified my opinion later but . . . I am very sorry for your loss; my own mother passed away 40 years ago and it's still something I find difficult to deal with at times. It's like losing a limb, you don't get over it, you learn to work around it. Again, I sincerely apologise if I questioned your methods for trying to protect your mother from harm. It bothers me a lot to think I did that.JVL
March 18, 2021
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WJM, the DUTY is unavoidable, but of course we can always act contrary to it in a particular situation. More broadly, what cannot be evaded is to appeal to said duty when we argue or quarrel. The list is actually incomplete, hence etc. I pointed to the microcosm-holographic principle, where one facet involves the others and the others in turn involve the one we happen to look at, which is why there is a parallelism involved. The context is community, which immediately invokes duty to neighbour so to fairness and justice. Principles of reason can be abused to mislead, deceive, manipulate, defraud, oppress one's neighbour. That predator doubtless planned how he would kidnap and abuse that school child, likely expecting to strangle the child when he was finished with his sexual assault, which was doubtless intended to give him sexual pleasure from what he was doing as well as from the helpless plight of his victim. (It seems the child asphyxiated.) Conscience is an inner voice that if sound gives testimony to duty. Prudence involves warrant and due balance, discernment and many other things that govern even the act of reasoning. Truth is pivotally involved in reasoning, which in turn involves any number of principles that help us discern truth, justice, soundness, opportunities, benefits and costs and much more. Fairness and justice of course serve the thriving and sustainability of community in the mutual interest, involving of course our individual interest. They are also directly involved in sound choice of goals. And much more. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2021
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KF @1163, I realize that there's more to your position than what I agreed to, but at least now I understand - basically - what you are saying about the "root" level duty to right reason, how it is both unavoidable and and ought. I not only have to use the principles of logic, it is also at the root of any ought that proceeds towards any goal, even if I'm using it badly or using it for "evil" ends. I had to disentangle that from your list of first duties because from my perspective (which of course could be erroneous) at least some those other things on the list aren't in the same category, such as conscience, fairness and justice. I don't consider them to be "parallel prior duties" - at least not yet. I seem to better understand you when you put your explanations in terms of goals; for me, pointing at the goal crystallizes the oughts that serve the goal. What is the goal of justice or fairness oughts? What is the goal of oughts of conscience? I don't see how these are parallel to the goal of logic. It seems you are saying that your version of "right reason" is tied up in pursuing whatever goals these other things are in service of. IOW, can you identify the higher level goal(s) that would define "right reason" in terms of sorting out my oughts with respect to these supposedly "parallel" duties?William J Murray
March 18, 2021
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WJM, pardon disciplinary distractions. I turn to 1044: >>KF said: WJM, the goal of logic, more properly, of right reason, is . . . manifestly . . . to have well warranted confidence that one’s conclusions are true, prudent, reliable, correct. KF OMG!! I think I finally understand you and agree with you!>> 1: I spoke to naturally evident purpose. >>You aren’t talking about ultimate goals when you say “first duty,”>> 2: I was speaking of the first duties of reason, getting our thinking, arguing, deciding, rule-making etc straightened out. >> you’re talking about the root-level steps you have to take to pursue any goal!>> 3: To responsibly pursue any goal compatible with the long term good. >>First step: you have to identify the goal.>> 4: Before we can identify a goal and deem it worthy of pursuit, we have to straighten out how we think, reason, argue, etc. >> This is an existential level ought, >> 5: In the sense, that prudence is charioteer of the virtues, steering us aright. >>an inescapable duty>> 6: Prudence is a first duty, one that is a facet of a framework of mutually involved duties. They are parallel priorities and constraints on our thinking, deciding and acting. >> that must precede any other thought or action>> 7: There are parallel priority duties. >> towards the target goal. >> 8: Actually identifying a goal clearly comes fairly late in the decision-making process as the disciplines of applied prudence tell us, i.e. management. >>Just to have a goal you have to identify things – identity, excluded middle, non-contradiction.>> 9: This brings out the point that we get to the level of setting responsible goals, mid course, not at the start. Now, 1048: >>So, if my goal is to explain my position to you, even when I am saying “you are wrong”>> 10: By that time, a responsible party has had to establish error and the reason one avoids such. 11: The claim also implies that there is mutual recognition of the need and duty to avoid error. >> and explaining something in contradiction to root-level oughts, I still ought form the letters and sequences of words rationally and coherently, using “right reason” (as best I can) to convey that meaning to you,>> 11: First duties are deeply bound up in the process and are unavoidable. They are also mutually bound up in one another so each points to and involves the others. >> and I still have to do it when I lie or mislead.>> 12: The liar particularly parasites off the principle that general truth telling is a basis for trust, communication and community, thence human thriving. Such parasitism is actually an anticivilisational, misanthropic act, often of small degree [taking from the cookie jar] but can amount to ruinous behaviour [setting up and murdering prisoners dressed in Polish uniforms to create a false impression that Poland attacked Germany in Sept 1939]. >> Even if I am manipulating others emotionally, I have to apply, and ought apply, right reasoning in the attempt to do so.>> 13: Had right reason been applied, one would turn back from deceit. But of course, clever liars make ruthless but rational calculations; just they are unreasonable and irresponsible. >>So, “right reasoning” is inherently implied regardless of what I’m doing or why I’m doing it, or else the attempt to attain my goal can’t even get off the ground.>> 14: True enough as it stands. However duties to reason are entangled with other duties, truth, prudence, neighbour, justice etc. Such would point away from deceit etc. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2021
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CC, consider whether you would talk as you have posted if you were sitting in my living room or even at the same table in a rum shop. You have continued with disruptive, ill-informed and ill-advised behaviour. That speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2021
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UB, at this point, you are quite right to expose the evasions by those playing the sort of rhetorical stunts above. As for whether I imagine people of my [principal] race to be inferior, obviously we are all humans. As I understand it, due to a suspicious population crash, the genetic diversity across our species is apparently less than that in a typical baboon troop. In any case, we have foolishly made far too much of minor adaptations to hostile climes. My point above, for cause, was to correct VL on the gross rhetorical blunder of trying to draw an immoral equivalency from objecting on principle with significant facts, to what is inherently disordered and damaging, to prejudices against people for minor genetic adaptations fitting them for hostile climes. All, in service to toxically distracting a thread on a serious issue that is pivotal to restoring the soundness to law and government that we sorely need. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2021
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VL, JVL, CC et al: Has it dawned on you that there already was a significant UD thread on one of your hobby horse, go down in the sewer distractions? Has it registered that many people, for cause, are not fond of going into the sewer, especially on a regular basis? (No, CC, it is not oh the oven got too hot, it is that there is no good reason to go down the sewer yet again in pursuit of your favourite red herring.) Has it not registered after many years that I do not lightly say that a principled stand on well established (but often suppressed or dismissed) facts is not to be equated to the crude prejudice we term racism? So, it is only responsible to recognise and respect that there are people who for principled jurisprudential cause and with significant underlying facts dissent from the currently fashionable perversities, promotion of self-mutilation and linked misanthropic, anti-civilisational follies being pushed by exceedingly ill advised elites, who have disregarded not only first principles but many bloodily bought, sobering lessons of history? VL, did it register with you that you did just that? JVL and CC, that you piled on gleefully, apparently not realising -- after information was discussed earlier and linked above -- that the popular opinions and what is increasingly imposed under colour of law have been manipulated through extremely sophisticated agit prop campaigns over decades, driven by frankly misanthropic, anti-civilisational agendas pivoting on the crooked yardstick manipulation principle? Don't you realise that for 2,700 years, there has been a warning on record about corrupting a civilisation through moral inversion and about where it leads? I guess, our civilisation is yet again hell-bent on learning the ship of state lesson the hard way. For cause, I am gavelling a toxic, needless distraction and I have already highlighted the slander and piling on that should have been apologised for. The focus of the OP is manifestly vital, if we are to restore soundness to our civilisation before it is too bloodily late. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2021
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. #1156
He’s obsessed with anyone who has stood up to him. He keeps track of conversations from months…
Well, look at your little sock go. My participation here on UD has been fairly sparse over the past couple of years, so I can easily open my Wordpress dashboard to see my comments only, which in turn, allows me to find your words in just a matter of seconds. Frankly, it’s all fairly easy. In any case, I can’t understand why you think people should forget the things you say, but I can readily see why you would want them to. So … your entire comment in #1156 is designed to attack me personally instead of addressing the issues on the table. You want to position me as a loon, perhaps hoping that if you can sling enough shit I’ll shut up and look the other way. That’s not likely to happen, and besides, I am already fully aware of how low you will go in order to avoid the obvious. Just about this same time last year, before my elder mother died, people here on UD were sharing some of their Covid stories as the pandemic was rolling out. I mentioned that the assisted living facility where my mother was living had an outbreak and that my siblings and I had demanded that they test her immediately before we took her out of there to safety. Now, it would have never occurred to me (if the situation had been reversed) to use that as a means to attack someone. I mean, really, attacking someone expressing a real and tangible concern over the physical safety of their parent? But that didn’t stop you, did it, JVL? You were so eager to attack ID proponents that you actually used it as an opportunity to suggest that my siblings and I were cheating the facility with our demands. So no JVL, I already know your schtick. I don’t sweat people like you, and I am certainly not angry (I am sitting here eating a bowl of ice cream, listening to Leon Russel play the piano). You go ahead and keep attacking me in place of the substance, and I‘ll keep on pointing out the flaws in your position. I trust the readers.Upright BiPed
March 18, 2021
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. #1155
You appeal to authority all the time in your posts.
Citing scientists, dates, papers, specific experiments and findings is not considered an appeal to authority in discussions of science, JVL; it is part of the normal course of communication. And I don’t just provide these cites and then refuse to enter into the details involved in the discussion. If you want to talk about the rate-independent nature of symbol vehicles, no problem. If you want to walk through the steps of Von Neumann’s logic, I’m all in. However, to merely say, as you do, that “others disagree with you” (without any willingness whatsoever to enter into details of the issues), and to do so, as you do, for the transparent purpose of avoiding the double-standard in your reasoning — that is indeed an appeal to authority. It is a defensive conversation-stopper, just as you intend it to be.
It is the case that there is no other hard physical evidence for your design argument. There is no outside evidence of a designer
Oh good grief. It is hard to believe that you don’t recognize how your double standard enters into your reasoning, but it may actually be the case that you don’t. So allow me to explain it to you. You came here and announced that there was no evidence of design in ID arguments. That position is patently false, so I took the time to lead you through the evidence you say doesn’t exist (specifically, the semiotic argument). Because of the nature of that evidence (being coherent, widely accepted, and historically accurate) you were unable to disagree with any of it. Indeed, you concurred with the each of the key observations that make up the design inference. You even asked to have some time to think about what you had been told, but eventually began the “others disagree” bit as a means to close off the conversation. You then jumped to another conversation and virtually the first thing out of your mouth (amazingly) was your apparent excitement over the design inference in SETI. You will notice that this is the snippet I keep re-posting each time you return to your attack on ID (as you did on Monday, which prompted this current exchange)
JVL: I would not be surprised at all if we find electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems UB: How would we know if we found “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings”? What would that be? JVL: Something like in the movie Contact. A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data. UB: So you accept encoded symbolic content as a universal inference to the presence of an unknown intelligence in one domain, while immediately denying that same physical evidence in another domain. Why the double standard? JVL: Because there is no plausible designer available.
When you say “because there is no plausible designer available” you are offering up a distinction that simply doesn’t exist. Does it really not occur to you that neither scenario has a “designer available” until evidence of that designer is discovered and confirmed? You shouldn’t need me to point this out to you. It is specifically the finding of encoded symbolic content that confirms (beyond any reasonable doubt) it is the product of an intelligence. Clearly, if a signal was received from outer space that contained encoded symbolic content in it, then you, like everyone else on the surface of the planet, would immediately (and quite correctly) infer the presence of a previously unknown intelligence. That is to say, the presence of encoded symbolic content is a universal correlate of intelligence. Do you see how that works, JVL? Before the confirmation of a universal correlate, there is no evidence of an intelligence in either scenario. After the confirmation of a universal correlate, the evidence of a previously unknown intelligence objectively exists in both scenarios. But that logical continuity is not how you treat the evidence. You treat the evidence with a gratuitous double standard. In the SETI scenario, encoded symbolic content is a universal correlate of intelligence. In the ID scenario, it isn’t. And it should come as no surprise that if encoded symbolic content is not a universal correlate of intelligence in the second scenario, then it can’t be that in the first scenario either. But does this logical inconsistency bother you? No, it serves your ideological purposes, and that is why you invoke it. You are a smart enough person, and I don’t really believe for a moment that you can’t see how you are applying a double standard. If you also have a fair sense of self-awareness, you may even recognize that you are doing it for purely non-scientific (ideological) reasons. So what does all this mean? It certainly means the same when you do it as it means when anyone else does it. You’ve seen a Periodic Table; you know without a doubt that Peirce’s triadic relationship (symbol/referent/interpretant) is a fundamental physical requirement to specify something in this lawfully determined universe. Not only does logic demand it, but it is a universal observation without a single exception recorded anywhere at anytime. You know without a doubt that John von Neumann predicted a high-capacity system of symbols and constraints as the fundamental requirement of autonomous open-ended self-replication. It is a matter of historical record. You know without a doubt that each of the key objects required to confirm von Neumann’s prediction were discovered one by one without exception (Crick, Brenner, Hoagland, Zamecnik, Nirenberg, etc). Nobel awards were handed out along the way. And you know that the entire resulting system has been carefully described in the literature using the language of physics, and additionally, that the only other system known to science that operates in the same way is that of human language – a universal correlate of intelligence. You knew all of this before you applied a double-standard between SETI and ID.Upright BiPed
March 18, 2021
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Concealed Citizen LCD, Why would Yahweh tell Israelites to murder innocent Canaanite children and babies? (If you don’t believe that happened, you can ignore the question.)
:) You mean "Why would Yahweh tell Israelites to murder innocent Canaanite children and babies after has been waiting for 400 years for Canaanites to abandon child sacrifices and other evil practices?" 2nd,if moral law has no real repercussion that means moral law is useless and has no value. But ,strange enough, the moral law is very apreciated by atheists when teach to christians how imoral is their God. You can't make this up. You can't escape self refutation and implosion.Lieutenant Commander Data
March 17, 2021
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KF
PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD, NOW. There will be no further warnings. KF
I’m new to this thread. Could someone point me to the comment, or comments, that led to this?count of crisco
March 17, 2021
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