Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
There isn’t any justification for allowing same-sex marriage. We are still waiting on that. JVL:
So that same-sex couples can enjoy the same civil liberties and benefits of laws that heterosexual couples enjoy: easier inheritance and power of attorney rules (in the case of a traffic accident this can be really important), more legal protections (consider the rule that a spouse is not compelled to testify against their spouse), more abilities to challenge biased and prejudiced individuals, immediate grant of favourable tax rules (in some countries anyway), more chance to be portrayed as non-sinful . . . the benefits are many and varied. You have to be purposely prejudice not to be able to think of some yourself.
None of that requires marriage. You are grasping at straws.ET
March 16, 2021
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re 1123: Many children suffer from short-lived marriages where the children are then raised by a single mother; parents who fight all the time but stay together "for the sake of the children"; parents in poverty, or with alcohol problems, or lack of education; etc.. A proper study of this subject would certainly have to look at a number of situations to compare with families with two same-sex parents, and then consider the whole range of variables that lead to children having difficult childhoods in some way. For instance, the 2010 census shows that about 2/3 of families have two parents, and the other third are mostly single moms. Furthermore, the two parent families included blended families (I don't know the percent) where the parents are not the original married birth parents. (Source: US 2010 Census) This is just one of many statistics that might bear on analyzing what kind of living arrangements are good for children in respect to the adults in their household.Viola Lee
March 16, 2021
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Seversky “ I couldn’t have put it better myself.” Thank you.Steve Alten2
March 16, 2021
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RavenT/1118
Whenever people ask me “who gets harmed anything outside proper marriage” The answer is almost exclusively “the children”.
For context, how many children are abused by or die at the hands of parents in a so-called "proper marriage"?Seversky
March 16, 2021
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Jerry/1117
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1371277298066812931.html Is the end near?
Who knows? I did notice that the list of civilizations given whose periods of ascendancy met the criteria of the Tytler cycle were mostly autocracies or oligarchies, which suggests we still have a long way to go before we find a system of government which is not vulnerable to human failings. Maybe we need to hand over responsibility to some form of AI since we don't seem to be very good at it.Seversky
March 16, 2021
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Steve Alten2/1116
The bottom line is, we should not erect barriers to people’s happiness unless they can be shown to cause harm. Love and commitment can never cause harm.
I couldn't have put it better myself.Seversky
March 16, 2021
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LCD, Why would Yahweh tell Israelites to murder innocent Canaanite children and babies? (If you don't believe that happened, you can ignore the question.)Concealed Citizen
March 16, 2021
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Concealed Citizen if Yahweh told Hitler to kill Jews (for God’s hidden purposes, whatever they may be), would that be okay? Yes or no?
:)) Why would do Yahweh such a thing? I thought Yahweh talk with prophets, holy men? Was Hitler a prophet? Try again. ;)Lieutenant Commander Data
March 16, 2021
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JVL @ 1111 Whenever people ask me "who gets harmed anything outside proper marriage" The answer is almost exclusively "the children". Here is a good place to start. Now if they want to do their business by themselves, I have nothing to say about it.RavenT
March 16, 2021
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Kf, add to your reading list https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1371277298066812931.html Is the end near?jerry
March 16, 2021
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Seversky, good point. It seems to me that in the sixties, people took offence to inter-racial marriage, raising slippery-slope and civilization ending arguments. Neither of which materialized. The bottom line is, we should not erect barriers to people’s happiness unless they can be shown to cause harm. Love and commitment can never cause harm.Steve Alten2
March 16, 2021
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Same sex marriage clearly offends some but causing offense is not the same as causing harm. Nor is it sufficient reason for prohibiting the speech or action that causes offense, if it were then there is much here and in other similar online venues that causes me offense but I don't believe that they should be banned just because they are offensive to me.Seversky
March 16, 2021
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JVL “ What none of the detractors here have been able to demonstrate is how allowing same-sex marriage harms anyone.” I guess it could be argued that it does harm to homosexual people. But that can only be true if you take the Christian opinion that homosexuality is a sin and it can prevent your entry into heaven. But then you would have to admit that your objection is religiously based.Steve Alten2
March 16, 2021
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Over on talk.origins some transwoman queer, announced it's upcoming marriage to another transwoman queer. I wonder if they will be having children. Probably. That brings to mind that evolutionist on talk.origins, Mitchell Coffey, who was advocating for acceptance of incest. And that other evolutionist of talk.origins from yesteryear, Matt Silberstein, who once had a tagline about having sex with a 14 year old girl. Evolutionist morality is just obviously a total cesspool. It's because the idea of emotions, and the concept of personal opinion, are inherently creationist ideas. On the intellectual level, evolutionists have no clue whatsoever anymore, about anything to do with emotions, morality. They are just going by intuition, and basic instinct.mohammadnursyamsu
March 16, 2021
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I looked at the previous comment and it was
1111
About a thousand too many.jerry
March 16, 2021
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ET: There isn’t any justification for allowing same-sex marriage. We are still waiting on that. So that same-sex couples can enjoy the same civil liberties and benefits of laws that heterosexual couples enjoy: easier inheritance and power of attorney rules (in the case of a traffic accident this can be really important), more legal protections (consider the rule that a spouse is not compelled to testify against their spouse), more abilities to challenge biased and prejudiced individuals, immediate grant of favourable tax rules (in some countries anyway), more chance to be portrayed as non-sinful . . . the benefits are many and varied. You have to be purposely prejudice not to be able to think of some yourself. What none of the detractors here have been able to demonstrate is how allowing same-sex marriage harms anyone. I'm not talking about some theological or philosophical stance; please state clearly and concisely how allowing same-sex marriage harms you personally. If no one can think of such a reason then . . . .JVL
March 16, 2021
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Kairosfocus: evident purpose is key to oughtness, and often that is naturally evident; including the function of our two sexes, associated genitalia and organs of elimination. OH, so it's anal sex that bothers you? So, you assume that all homosexual men practice anal sex? You are aware that lots of heterosexual, child-producing, Christian, married couples practice anal sex. You must know that. Unless, you are wilfully ignorant. I know, you won't discuss it but I'm starting to figure out what bothers you. Does that mean that lesbians are okay since they've not got the . . . gear to practice anal sex?JVL
March 16, 2021
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At 1089 WJM complimented my closing sentence in a post to KF: "You don’t want to discuss these things because they highlight how your philosophy is impotent once it leaves the ivory tower." WJM went on to to say that "At the end of the day, those that have the capacity and will to do so, make the rules and run any society" I agree that from a realpolitik point of view, he is correct. However, I am more interested in how people make moral judgments, and how we live with the fact that different people have different perspectives. kf's remark at 1096 highlights the problem:
the point of the recognition of our built in nature is that there are realities that are not determined by society, which includes key rights and our fundamental nature, which happens to include the complementarity of the two opposite sexes, whatever fashion of the times conscious theologians may wish to say.
First, his "ivory tower" dichotomy between two opposite sexes denies reality: the biology and psychology of people varies tremendously, and as other have mentioned, it's all equally natural to the people involved. And when I mention that the Evangelical Lutheran Church accepts same-sex relationships and marriage, he dismisses them as theologians following the fashion of the times, not as religious people whose claims to judgment are equal to the Catholic church. So in actuality "natural law" and the use of "right reason" appear to be equivalent to the individual views of the people invoking them, and the argument that they are somehow connected to some natural truths is just a rationalization for trying to give one's views some special credence that one denies others.Viola Lee
March 16, 2021
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CC, the record is there above. KF PS: It seems I had to update to web archive in reply to Evil Bible dot com, a yardstick reference of Internet form village atheist rhetoric -- and yes, others sometimes make use of that rhetoric, not advisable. See https://web.archive.org/web/20160305071200/http://www.truefreethinker.com/evilbiblecomkairosfocus
March 16, 2021
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The naturalistic fallacy, or is / ought fallacy, fails when it is considered that emotions exist. If it is said love exists, then what ought, and ought not, automatically follow from that. I like to get to the top of the mountain. Therefore I ought to do what get's me to the top, and ought not to do, what leads me away from the top. The ougts, and ought nots follow from acknowledging the existence of the love for getting to the top. Correctly understood, the existence of this love is a matter of chosen opinion. 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / fact Choices are made out of emotion, such as love, therefore emotions belong in category number 1. Therefore love can only be identified with a chosen opinion. So someone saying they like to get to the top of the mountain, it does not prove this love for going to the top exists. Same as it does not prove God exists, by saying, I believe in God. Evolutionists have thrown out creationism, and consequently categorized emotions, such as love, as a material and factual thing. That is why natural selection theory is actually social darwinist ideology which says that one ought to survive and reproduce. The naturalistic fallacy breaks down. But then social darwinism not a proper ideology, because in a proper ideology what is good, loving and beautiful is noted as subjective. While social darwinism asserts these things as fact. So it is kind of an ideology, but really it is more of a total mess.mohammadnursyamsu
March 16, 2021
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KF: CC, no, there ARE questions that are self-defeating and discrediting. Publicly doubting and challenging the evil of the most notorious criminal in history is of that order. I did no such thing. The fact that you and I accept the evil of Hitler's actions is precisely why my question is useful in probing your philosophy. It's an extreme test. Hitler's actions were deplorable and evil. So was the Israelite's (alleged) murder of children and babies. The only difference, apparently, is that in one case (assuming the story is true) your God commanded it, which therefore made the Israelites duty bound to murder the babies. Yes or no? You apparently can't look that square in the face with regards to your "duty" philosophizing. So, why don't you just come clean, and state simply that "whatever God commands, we are duty bound to obey, even if it means murdering innocent babies" ? That would be honest. Then we could move on to if God really demanded such a thing. PS: Remarks about cutting throats are also well beyond the pale and raise very troubling issues. Running a sword through an innocent Canaanite baby is beyond the pale and very troubling. The fact that you seem to accept the Israelites doing that as a good thing which they were duty bound to obey is very troubling indeed. But that's your duty, right? At any rate, you're ripping a statement from its context. You know that's not all I said. If you wouldn't defend your own life, I feel sorry for you.Concealed Citizen
March 16, 2021
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WJM, Busy, but I will pause: >>At the end of the day, those that have the capacity and will to do so, make the rules and run any society>> 1: Might and/or manipulation makes "right" is another way to say, nihilisn, here via lawless oligarchy. 2: The reforms of the past 400 years were precisely a breaking of capability to impose lawless oligarchy. However, such is inherently unstable and requires civilisational consensus . . . no prizes for guessing why it is being deliberately undermined. >> regardless of any constitution, laws, history, conscience, reasoning, etc.;>> 3: Actually, accountability before law, parliament, sound courts and people has been a key check. Ponder Watergate. >>and the people obey and follow only to the degree that they agree with>> 4: Key cultural consensus, which is being deliberately eroded. Note the alternative political spectrum I have been discussing. >>or cannot resist or avoid.>> 5: Oh, constitutional democracy butressed by a civilisation consensus undergirded by natural law and gospel ethics, we will only appreciate you from the foot of the cliff of tyranny once you have collapsed. >> This is what actually happens outside of the ivory tower.>> 6: Note the history implicit in that alternative spectrum. >> People of will and capacity will always rise to power and use that power for their own ends regardless of how one structures the system of power.>> 7: But in the lawful state are restrained by accountability. The ongoing disintegration is liable to have consequences beyond the nightmares of those who chafe at the restraints they despise. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2021
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Viola:
If you and your religion want to consider homosexuality immoral, that is your choice, but that is not justification for legally denying same-sex marriage.
There isn't any justification for allowing same-sex marriage. We are still waiting on that.ET
March 16, 2021
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Mo:
There is only one really important issue in creationism / intelligent design vs evolution.
Neither ID nor Creation deny that evolution occurs. So there isn't any "creationism / intelligent design vs evolution".ET
March 16, 2021
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CC:
You biased, arbitrary list seems to imply that homosexuals are on par with murderers, rapists and bullies. Is this what you intend?
Clearly you don't have a clue. My list shows that people doing what is natural to them doesn't make it right. I never said that homosexuality is bad. Clearly you have issues and should seek professional helpET
March 16, 2021
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JVL, there already was a thread on the subject. The fallacy of appealing to the is to address the ought fails to recognise the issue of moral challenge. For example, murder, rape, kidnapping or debt bonding into slavery, lawless oligarchy and more are ages long, and still continue today. Yes, even slavery still continues. For a long time, there was mass or at least critical mass support for many practices that are dubious or worse; hence the hardness of hearts issue and the matter of sound reformation. That presence or support etc does not make such things lawful. WJM is right that evident purpose is key to oughtness, and often that is naturally evident; including the function of our two sexes, associated genitalia and organs of elimination. Again, enough has been said on such side tracks. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2021
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CC, no, there ARE questions that are self-defeating and discrediting. Publicly doubting and challenging the evil of the most notorious criminal in history is of that order. For the same reason that it is self-evidently evil to kidnap, bind, sexually torture and murder a young child on the way home from school. KF PS: Remarks about cutting throats are also well beyond the pale and raise very troubling issues.kairosfocus
March 16, 2021
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I imagine that some millionaire who pays for the uncommon descent operation, is having this same "manifesto" posted time, and time and again. It is too much, and it is not enough. Too much for good advice, and too little in comparison to bona fide religion. And it is all besides the point. There is only one really important issue in creationism / intelligent design vs evolution. And that issue is the concept of personal opinion (like opinion on beauty). By far this is the most important issue, because of the impact on the individual and society. The truth is, the concept of personal opinion is an inherently creationist concept. Throwing out creationism means not just to throw out belief in God as being the creator, it means to destroy subjectivity in general. To throw out beauty, as well as ugliness, throw out love and hate, good and evil, all subjectivity depends on creationism. The creationist conceptual scheme: 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / fact Where the concept of opinion is validated in category 1, and the concept of fact is validated in category 2. Academics wants to apply the following conceptual schem: 1 material / fact 2. see 1 In category number 1 of the creationist conceptual scheme, is God, but also emotions, feelings, personal charcacter. But this category has been entirely thrown out in academics. So now you have loads and loads of people on facebook who assert that emotions can be measured in the brain. They classify emotions as material / factual, because material / fact is all they understand. No kidding, I had some evolutionist write to me that he could only know if his parents loved him, by measuring their brain with an mri. Untill then, he would just have to take their word for it. The sense is disappearing in society, to be courtous, kind, merciful, in choosing a judgement on what emotions are in people's heart, or what their personal character is. That sense is replaced by an emotionless calculating and measuring attitude, measuring the emotions and personal character. It is catastrophic for individuals and society. When creationism is thrown out, it means that people don't have any intellectual understanding of how a personal opinion is formed. People are left only with their intuitive understanding of personal opinions, and have no guidance from their intellect in forming personal opinions. Consequently they end up making bad personal opinions. "Bad" in my opinion of it. But also more objectively bad as in making logic errors of confusing matters of opinion, with matters of fact. My opinion about it is that every creationist, intelligent design theorist, should make the concept of personal opinion their number 1 issue for societal impact of creationism / intelligent design vs evolution. I have to say, that I am disappointed to see that creationists are just as well fact obsessed, as evolutionists are. Ignoring the concept of personal opinion. http://www.creationwiki.org/Creationist_Philosophymohammadnursyamsu
March 16, 2021
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Kairosfocus: which happens to include the complementarity of the two opposite sexes, whatever fashion of the times conscious theologians may wish to say. I don't think homosexuality is a recent phenomena; clearly it was around and common during the time Leviticus was written or there wouldn't be an injunction against it. Well, for men 'lying' with other men. It doesn't say anything about women 'lying' with other women . . . maybe that's okay then?JVL
March 16, 2021
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CC: if you were serious I'm very serious. I suggest you cease the mind reading attempts. You're not good at it. (Most people aren't.) you would first walk back your sez who regarding Hitler, that disqualifies and discredits your further rhetorical stunts. Um, no, perfectly reasonable questions put to your philosophy to see what kind of an answer you will provide based on said philosophy. Philosophical views are tested with specifics. Sometimes that can get uncomfortable. You apparently can't handle it. Okay then. rhetorical stunts. That's not my intent. Do all questions you don't like qualify as a rhetorical stunts? This is not a site for discussion of village atheist rhetoric I'm not an atheist. And none of my questions even came close to "atheist rhetoric", whatever that is. Either your philosophy can consistently provide answers to questions placed to it, or it can't. Your statements of discomfort at the questions are not answers.Concealed Citizen
March 16, 2021
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