Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
I have already pointed out that I am gavelling the side track into toxic distractions, Please do not require me to take stronger actions. And I guess I have to note: SA2 and VL, the point of the recognition of our built in nature is that there are realities that are not determined by society, which includes key rights and our fundamental nature, which happens to include the complementarity of the two opposite sexes, whatever fashion of the times conscious theologians may wish to say. CC, if you were serious, you would first walk back your sez who regarding Hitler, that disqualifies and discredits your further rhetorical stunts. This is not a site for discussion of village atheist rhetoric against the Bible, there are sites that do so quite adequately [start here for just one instance]; were you serious, you would go there and take their remarks seriously. That you continue to try to drag discussion here off track, speaks volumes as to what -- and likely who -- you are.kairosfocus
March 16, 2021
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WJM @1089 (Thumbs up)Concealed Citizen
March 16, 2021
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LCD: Abortion is also a child sacrifice but you agree with this type of killing as moral When did I say that I agree with this type of killing as moral?Concealed Citizen
March 16, 2021
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WJM “ Quote of the day right there.” I have to reluctantly agree.Steve Alten2
March 16, 2021
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LCD, 1. If there is no God then [to] kill is not bad (lion vs gazelle, cat vs mouse ,etc) Not supported by any facts in evidence. There may not be a monarchical God the way you might imagine, but "good" vs "evil" may still be a property of the root reality. Within consciousness there are contrasts that all consciousn entities experience in varying degrees. This forms the basis of all "good" and "evil" in any meaningful way. 2.If God exist,soul is immortal so there is not a thing like “killing” babies by God . So if Hitler was told by God to kill all the Jews, that's okay because "there is not a thing like killing by God"? 3.If God exist and Canaanites perform child sacrifice to Moloh(satan) don’t you think is better for babies souls to be taken before sacrificial activities performed with permission of their own parents? The Israelites could have adopted the babies and young children. Why did they have to be murdered? Back to my question: Do you agree with killing innocent Canaanite babies just because Yahweh said so? Apparently you think, yes, it was okay. So, for the sake of discussion, if Yahweh told Hitler to kill Jews (for God's hidden purposes, whatever they may be), would that be okay? Yes or no?Concealed Citizen
March 16, 2021
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ET: Murderers do what comes natural to them. Rapists do what comes natural to them. Thieves do what comes natural to them. Bullies do what comes natural to them. You biased, arbitrary list seems to imply that homosexuals are on par with murderers, rapists and bullies. Is this what you intend? You seem to think that you are some sort of psychic and crank. ? You are the one making the claim. I didn't make a claim. I asked questions. It is if you are having sex with the golf course and want to marry it. So, playing golf is not "bad." Good to know. Why is homosexuality "bad" and not golf? Neither leads to "having children" that you specified as a criterion. Is celibacy bad?Concealed Citizen
March 16, 2021
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KF: CC, your failure to understand Hitler’s manifest evil discredits your further attempts to impose your whims or fancies. I asked some simple questions. This is how one tests a philosophy. You refuse to provide straights answers.Concealed Citizen
March 16, 2021
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VL said:
As I’ve said, you don’t want to discuss these things because they highlight how your philosophy is impotent once it leaves the ivory tower.
Quote of the day right there. At the end of the day, those that have the capacity and will to do so, make the rules and run any society regardless of any constitution, laws, history, conscience, reasoning, etc.; and the people obey and follow only to the degree that they agree with or cannot resist or avoid. This is what actually happens outside of the ivory tower. People of will and capacity will always rise to power and use that power for their own ends regardless of how one structures the system of power. As long as the people in power didn't want legalized same-sex marriage, it didn't happen. When the people in power were accepting of it, in those places it became legal. The same can be said for everything. The USA was *never* close to the idealist version put to paper at the beginning of the country. It has *always* been run by people of power and wealth - not by the will of the people. Every social system is ultimately run by people of power and wealth. The only thing a revolution might do is change which people of power and wealth are at the top.William J Murray
March 16, 2021
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seversky:
If human beings are able engage in homosexual relationships then it is in human nature to do so and it is natural for them to do so.
Or it's just a bastardization of human nature.
If human beings were brought about by an all-knowing and all-powerful Creator then we have to assume that the capacity for homosexual behavior was built in to human nature.
Or it arose due to a corrupted Creation.
An all-knowing Creator would have known right from the beginning exactly what His designs would be capable of and an all-powerful Creator could have designed us to be otherwise if that was what He wanted.
Your strawman aside, said Creator wanted to see what would happen if left to our own devices.
We have to assume that, since nothing happens but by His will, homosexuality is part of His plan and to oppose it is to place yourself in opposition to His will which makes any who do that sinful.
You just love strawmen. We have to assume that all you have is crap that you just fling around as if it means something.ET
March 15, 2021
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Concealed Citizen Do you agree with killing innocent Canaanite babies just because Yahweh said so? It’s a yes or no answer.
:) This question is lose-lose-lose situation for you. 1.If there is no God then kill is not bad (lion vs gazelle, cat vs mouse ,etc) 2.If God exist,soul is immortal so there is not a thing like "killing" babies by God . 3.If God exist and Canaanites perform child sacrifice to Moloh(satan) don't you think is better for babies souls to be taken before sacrificial activities performed with permission of their own parents? Abortion is also a child sacrifice but you agree with this type of killing as moral ,while God doesn't have the right to take the soul of innocent babies before are sold to satan. Try again. Hahahaha.
Seversky An all-knowing Creator would have known right from the beginning
Oups,another one without free will that knows how morality works. A contradiction . A self defeater.Lieutenant Commander Data
March 15, 2021
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If human beings are able engage in homosexual relationships then it is in human nature to do so and it is natural for them to do so. If human beings were brought about by an all-knowing and all-powerful Creator then we have to assume that the capacity for homosexual behavior was built in to human nature. An all-knowing Creator would have known right from the beginning exactly what His designs would be capable of and an all-powerful Creator could have designed us to be otherwise if that was what He wanted. We have to assume that, since nothing happens but by His will, homosexuality is part of His plan and to oppose it is to place yourself in opposition to His will which makes any who do that sinful.Seversky
March 15, 2021
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CC:
Gay people do what comes natural to them.
Murderers do what comes natural to them. Rapists do what comes natural to them. Thieves do what comes natural to them. Bullies do what comes natural to them.
You seem to be making some kind of claim… that what gay people do 1) isn’t “natural”, and 2) it’s bad.
You seem to think that you are some sort of psychic and crank.
Why is it that if gay sex doesn’t lead to babies it is “bad”?
You are the one making the claim. I am saying that since same-sex sex doesn't lead to babies then same-sex marriages should not be allowed.
I play golf. It doesn’t lead to babies. Is that bad too?
It is if you are having sex with the golf course and want to marry it.ET
March 15, 2021
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Acartia Stevie:
Marriage is what society decides it to be.
And by that "definition" marriage is just total arbitrary, meaningless nonsense.
It seems to me that religiously acceptable versions of marriage have far more in common with a sewer than same sex marriage.
What does sewing have to do with it?ET
March 15, 2021
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Marriage is what society decides it to be. In some cultures it is between one man and many women. In not to distant Catholic history, it could be between a man and a woman as young as 13. In some cultures it is between a man and a woman as determined by parental arrangement. Also in the not too distant Catholic Church it could be a contractual arrangement between a man and a woman’s father, regardless of the woman’s opinion. In some, it could be between brother and sister. It seems to me that religiously acceptable versions of marriage have far more in common with a sewer than same sex marriage.Steve Alten2
March 15, 2021
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But what if one doesn't care what the Bible says? If you and your religion want to consider homosexuality immoral, that is your choice, but that is not justification for legally denying same-sex marriage. This is exactly on the topic of the OP: the claim that natural law should guide man-made laws. If we have no way of establishing what the "natural law" is, then obviously we have to find a different guide for establishing our laws.Viola Lee
March 15, 2021
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Asauber: “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Is that what the Bible passage actually says based on the best translation?JVL
March 15, 2021
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KF writes, "Enough has long since been put on the table to see that word magic and pressure tactics cannot change what is built in by nature." So the Evangelical Lutheran Church is wrong? And as someone said above, homosexuals attraction to the same sex is "built in by nature." This is not a "sewer" topic. It is a critical subject concerning love for a lifelong companion. You betray your constant invocations about fairness, justice, conscience, your neighbor, etc. when you reject all opinions other than your own as defective. As I've said, you don't want to discuss these things because they highlight how your philosophy is impotent once it leaves the ivory tower.Viola Lee
March 15, 2021
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Folks, I have been busy elsewhere. I see a side track is in progress. And predictably, it headed for the sewer. Gavelling, now. Enough has long since been put on the table to see that word magic and pressure tactics cannot change what is built in by nature. KF PS: CC, your failure to understand Hitler's manifest evil discredits your further attempts to impose your whims or fancies.kairosfocus
March 15, 2021
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ET: natural law. Gay people do what comes natural to them. You seem to be making some kind of claim... that what gay people do 1) isn't "natural", and 2) it's bad. Why is it that if gay sex doesn't lead to babies it is "bad"? I play golf. It doesn't lead to babies. Is that bad too?Concealed Citizen
March 15, 2021
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Jerry, "That his duties are essential for human success are beyond doubt. " Define "success". Prove why anyone should care what that means.Concealed Citizen
March 15, 2021
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And no, Jerry, KF has not “won”.
Most definitely he has won. That his duties are essential for human success are beyond doubt. You want to try and undermine this thesis by picking some very specific questions and show some inconsistencies. By his not wanting to address your specific issues in no way undermines his thesis. By saying you disagree with the Catholic Church on some specific issue does not in any way lessen the validity of his argument. His list of duties leads to the thriving of humanity and individual humans specifically. Which is obvious. You could undermine his thesis by taking one of the duties and showing it harms humanity and generally a number of humans. But no one has. Cicero picked these duties because it was obvious they were positive influences on humans. Kf has won his argument.jerry
March 15, 2021
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Seeing that same sex couples cannot procreate it is obvious that theirs goes against natural law.ET
March 15, 2021
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Wikipedia site on church positions on homosexuality The majority see it as sin, but some do not. For instance,
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the largest Lutheran church body in the United States, allows for LGBTQ+ marriage and ordination of LGBTQ+ clergy. ELCA policy states that LGBTQ+ individuals are welcome and encouraged to become members and to participate in the life of the congregation. The ELCA has provided supplemental resources for the rite of marriage in Evangelical Lutheran Worship which use inclusive language and are suitable for use in LGBTQ+ marriage ceremonies.[61] The group ReconcilingWorks supports the full inclusion of LGBTQ+ members in Lutheran churches in the ELCA, and provides resources to assist ELCA congregations in becoming more welcoming communities for LGBTQ+ persons. ReconcilingWorks recognizes ELCA congregations that have committed to embracing LGBTQ+ persons as Reconciling in Christ congregations.[62]
So who is acting in accordance with "natural law", the Evangelical Lutheran Church or the Catholic Church. Who is following the duties of "right reason" correctly? How is this anything other than individual positions on something that has no objective right answer, but is rather a choice based on values of conscience and compassion and rational understanding.Viola Lee
March 15, 2021
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asauber Umm, no, not in general. Only if came down to him or me surviving, as I said. Do you have comprehension problems? Hehehe. What would you do? Lay down and surrender like some cuck?Concealed Citizen
March 15, 2021
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Acartia stevie:
Then I assume that you agree with ET that post menopausal women should not be allowed to get married.
There isn't any reason for people to get married if they are not going to or cannot have children. Women who wait for menopause to marry kind of missed the boat.ET
March 15, 2021
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"If it came down to you or me surviving I would slit your throat" This sounds pretty hostile. Andrewasauber
March 15, 2021
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Jerry: An objective for humans is survival. I assume everyone agrees. If not then please go some place else. Survival of individuals based on self-interest and interest of what we value. Not primarily survival based on "tribes" or groups. That is secondary. If it came down to you or me surviving I would slit your throat in a 1/2 second. And if it came down to your survival or one of my kids, I would slit your throat even quicker. That you can't see this... hehehe. It's a hierarchy of values. And ideology and religion and whatever else, becomes literally nothing in life-or-death situations. The lions know a thing or two that you don't seem to know. And the Creator is quite happy about them doing what they do.Concealed Citizen
March 15, 2021
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And no, Jerry, KF has not "won". KF has continually not addressed the central topic of people disagreeing about moral issues, other than to call some people defective in their moral judgments. His philosophy leaves no room for legitimate differing positions about moral issues, so he always wants to avoid discussing real-world situations. In this regard he loses, not wins.Viola Lee
March 15, 2021
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"Then I assume that you agree with ET that post menopausal women should not be allowed to get married. Is this correct?" Not correct. And I'm not sure why you are asking me about what ET thinks. Andrewasauber
March 15, 2021
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Jerry got triggered. Hehe.Concealed Citizen
March 15, 2021
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