Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Again, for record.

Comments
PM1 & Jerry, there are two main provinces of design theory, one is cosmological, the other addreses the world of life. Both involve a discussion of what blind chance and/or mechanical necessity are capable of, and what bears on it signs of intelligently directed configuration. Both point to a fine tuning issue, the observed cosmos sits at a locally, deeply isolated operating point for a life permitting cosmos and the requirement for multiple correctly matched, properly oriented, arranged and coupled parts to achieve key life function implies a fine tuning of the configuration spaces hence islands of function as a useful figure of speech. And, there is machinery in the cell and beyond, including at least one case of actual gears. KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2022
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PM1 at 27, Where have you been? You haven't been reading military journals? https://ndupress.ndu.edu/Media/News/News-Article-View/Article/2846343/chinas-new-generation-ai-brain-project/ And the United States is doing the same. "In that version, ID just becomes theistic evolution or deism." That is quite wrong. A few here are operating under the false belief that "theistic evolution" actually happened as in, God intervened at some point or points and then walked away. God operates continually in Creation. The Deist God makes a wind-up toy called evolution, puts it on the ground and it goes wherever it wants. God does not work like that.relatd
November 3, 2022
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In that version, ID just becomes theistic evolution or deism
You have just pigeon holed yourself. Everything I said is right on. So why are you denying it? I suggest you read Stephen Meyer more closely. He certainly emphasizes fine tuning in his latest book. Also read the latest by Michael Denton.jerry
November 3, 2022
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"machine conception of organisms" Organisms do apply mechanical power, so... Andrewasauber
November 3, 2022
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Jerry at 26, "The result is that 95+% of the comments here are irrelevant." The pro-Evolution non-arguments will still appear like clockwork. Meanwhile, ID states that there is design in nature, in living things.relatd
November 3, 2022
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@23
The problem is, they are no closer today than 20 years ago regarding duplicating the function of the human brain. Sure, computing “power” as a measure of calculations per second has increased, but all of the other functions cannot be duplicated. I have read about various brute force experiments but “artificial intelligence” is a fake term. No machine has the abilities of the human brain.
From what I understand, building a machine that could mimic the brain was never on the agenda to begin with. The first experiments in AI were attempts to build programs that could do what human minds could do, but AI researchers never bothered to study how brains do anything. Melanie Mitchell has a really interesting essay, "Why AI is Harder Than We Think". She argues that one major limitation of all AI research to date is that AI researchers don't talk to neuroscientists and psychologists -- it's hard to design a self-driving car if you don't know how animals use their senses to navigate the world (for example). @26
Not even close to true. Biology/Evolution get most of the discussion. ID is mainly based on the fine tuning of the universe and the solar system. Evolution is emphasized by critics because it is viewed as a way to attack ID.
I would venture to say that this would come as a surprise to Stephen Meyer and Michael Behe.
It is understood by ID advocates that the creator of the universe and solar system could have set up initial conditions so that life could form and complex changes could have also happened.
In that version, ID just becomes theistic evolution or deism.PyrrhoManiac1
November 3, 2022
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As I understand it, intelligent design rests upon the use of engineering concepts to describe and explain biological phenomena
Not even close to true. Biology/Evolution get most of the discussion. ID is mainly based on the fine tuning of the universe and the solar system. Evolution is emphasized by critics because it is viewed as a way to attack ID. It is understood by ID advocates that the creator of the universe and solar system could have set up initial conditions so that life could form and complex changes could have also happened. Undermining criticism of Evolution is an attempt to equate ID with creationism. ID just points out that without some sort of specialized initial conditions, Evolution could not have happened. The result is that 95+% of the comments here are irrelevant.jerry
November 3, 2022
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"What are Molecular Machines? "A molecular machine, according to an article in the journal Accounts of Chemical Research, is “an assemblage of parts that transmit forces, motion, or energy from one to another in a predetermined manner.”4 A 2004 article in Annual Review of Biomedical Engineering asserted that “these machines are generally more efficient than their macroscale counterparts,” further noting that “[c]ountless such machines exist in nature.”5 Indeed, a single research project in 2006 reported the discovery of over 250 new molecular machines in yeast alone!6"relatd
November 3, 2022
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I agree with PM1. The ID argument from machine analogy has it backwards. Human beings have drawn ideas and concepts from nature and then built and engineered things in a human way. That doesn't mean that the original source of our inspirations was built in the same way.Viola Lee
November 3, 2022
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PM1 at 22, A strange idea. Engineers have attempted to mimic nature with some success. Early glider experiments combined with the introduction of the gasoline engine led to the first powered aircraft flight. The problem is, they are no closer today than 20 years ago regarding duplicating the function of the human brain. Sure, computing "power" as a measure of calculations per second has increased, but all of the other functions cannot be duplicated. I have read about various brute force experiments but "artificial intelligence" is a fake term. No machine has the abilities of the human brain. The machine analogy is useful. https://intelligentdesign.org/articles/molecular-machines-in-the-cell/relatd
November 3, 2022
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Since it has occasionally been suggested that critics of intelligent design do not offer any arguments, allow me to make one. As I understand it, intelligent design rests upon the use of engineering concepts to describe and explain biological phenomena. I think that this rests upon a deeply mistaken conflation between organisms and machines. For the criticism of the machine conception of the organism, I quite like some recent work by Nicholson, including "Organisms ? Machines" (2013) and "Is the Cell Really a Machine?" (2019). I objections to ID because, as far as I can tell, ID is necessarily wedded to the fundamentally mistaken machine conception of organisms. I think that the use of machine conceptions in describing and explaining biology has been a colossal error -- one of the greatest blunders of the Scientific Revolution.PyrrhoManiac1
November 3, 2022
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Piling on what PM1 said. KF, if you are "answering a general, sweeping accusation", why headline an accusation that no one but Richard Dawkins has made, long ago, and is denounced by everyone here to whom you might be addressing. Straw windmills.Viola Lee
November 3, 2022
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PM1, No one here is against ID? News to me. You have not seen the borderline rants/demands made about ID as science? Examples: "When did the designer do XYZ?" "How did he/she/it do it?" I could as well ask when some imaginary transition event occurred in some animal according to evolution and request an exact date. I don't want to bash anyone but there are people who agree with what he said about design; i.e. there isn't any in nature.relatd
November 3, 2022
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@17
Richard Dawkins has become the standard bearer for the thought that ‘Living things only look designed. They are not actually designed.’
Sure, except that Dawkins is wrong -- it's not true, it was a stupid thing for him to said, and not a single person here is defending it. By which I should clarify: I think Dawkins was completely wrong to say that living things look designed. They might look designed if one is observing biology through the conceptual lens of the machine conception of the organism. Without that conceptual framework, living things do not even appear to be designed. I mean, if you want to keep on bashing Dawkins, go right ahead. I don't care. Just keep in mind that since no one here is defending Dawkins, the Dawkins-bashing makes you look a bit silly. But, if you want to look silly, be my guest. No harm in being silly!PyrrhoManiac1
November 3, 2022
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VL at 13, Are you willing to realize that life is actually designed? If not, why not?relatd
November 3, 2022
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PM1 at 15, Speaking broadly, the idea that other ideas are somehow superior to ID has been trumpeted here. Richard Dawkins has become the standard bearer for the thought that 'Living things only look designed. They are not actually designed.' And there is the sharp dividing line. Cross it and tell the world, and you instantly become one of "them." This means your thinking, your conclusions, are obviously 'wrong' according to those on the other side. It's not more complicated than that. It's a bit like trench warfare. Both sides fire their volleys. Retreat, And return the next day to do the same. But both sides can't be right.relatd
November 3, 2022
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VL, I am answering a general, sweeping accusation. Surely, it is in order to summarise the core argument for record. If this is so full of failures as is implied by the sneering demand for a -- as in just one -- good argument, they will be readily exposed rather than greeted with sweeping assertions. So far, no substantive, cogent answers. KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2022
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@11
The glorification of Richard Dawkins is more important than agreeing with the idea that there is actual design in nature.
Has anyone here glorified Dawkins? For that matter, has anyone here even defended anything that Dawkins has said? Speaking strictly for myself, I think the man's an utter fool -- he's made no positive contributions to science and has done immense harm to the public understanding of science. He's a textbook example of how the British pseudo-meritocracy allows for unlimited 'failing upward' for people with the right connections. @14
You guys run cover for him under the guise of “we don’t endorse him directly”, but you do love what he does.
Not me. I hate everything that he does.PyrrhoManiac1
November 3, 2022
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"I also don’t think Dawkins is worth a lot of attention" VL, But he's on Your Side, so you might as well be married to him. You guys run cover for him under the guise of "we don't endorse him directly", but you do love what he does. He's an Evolution Saint, worshipped by the congregation. You just sit in the back. Andrewasauber
November 3, 2022
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There is no "glorification of Richard Dawkins" here. And who has been "giving orders"? Strange comments, in my opinion.Viola Lee
November 3, 2022
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Folks, see what I mean about not EXPLICITLY using ignorant, stupid insane or wicked but it is clearly a factor in the all too manifest, no concession policy. As to oh after 30 years there is no design hypothesis, that is a bare faced false assertion and again a manifestation of the same Dawkins style policy. Oh it's not relevant, but then, wait a few comments. KF PS, as a first note, SG should have seen from point 7 of OP, in reply to his accusation that I have to actually produce a "good argument" -- implying general argument failure as Dawkins openly declared -- that infinite regress is impossible and question-begging are not legitimate so there are finitely remote first plausibles to any major case. The alternatives are addressed on comparative difficulties, which answers the question begging issue. PPS, Then, as there is on the table an accusation of general argument failure, I have laid out in summary arguments that are mostly at foundational level; the motive mongering is barking up the wrong tree. SG needs to show why he would dismiss these. As to the onward design inference, it is set in the context of abductive, modern sense inductive arguments and rests on a trillion observation base. Show us a single actually observed case where reliably FSCO/I came about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity and it will fail. The sort of arguments we are seeing are obviously because the objectors, after many years, cannot meet this criterion.kairosfocus
November 3, 2022
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Jerry at 3, Please don't take this the wrong way. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? The pro-evolution troops stationed here have been given their orders: PROMOTE Evolution. Say bad things about ID. Big secret Jerry. Pro-evolution types always want to turn ID, as science, into accusations that it's purely religious. The glorification of Richard Dawkins is more important than agreeing with the idea that there is actual design in nature. You don't have to be religious to realize that. And there is nothing theoretical about actual design in nature.relatd
November 3, 2022
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most of his bad arguments are due to the fact that their foundations are based on unproven premises and/or the exclusion of any contrary evidence.
So what are his bad arguments? Please be specific since you implied many! Also does that mean the ones not mentioned are good arguments? Everyone acknowledges that his presentation is convoluted at best. But such does not mean the premises are not true or the logic is bad, just difficult to understand. I personally have never seen a bad argument by Kf except on non ID topics such as history or current politics. Aside: creationist are used by critics of ID as if they are the same as design theorists.jerry
November 3, 2022
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re 6: very good comment. I also don't think Dawkins is worth a lot of attention, and no one here is defending him in general, or that particular quote. My feeling is that KF had some time on his hands so he decided to recycle parts of previous posts so he could put out another OP in his "series".Viola Lee
November 3, 2022
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Jerry: So are they then good arguments? If not, why not?
As with all of us, some arguments are good and some are bad. In KF’s case, most of his bad arguments are due to the fact that their foundations are based on unproven premises and/or the exclusion of any contrary evidence.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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Jerry:
But nearly all anti ID advocates are also obviously obsessed.
Yes, perhaps my own skepticism has become a bit of an obsession.
They will pick an irrelevant shortcoming of an ID argument to criticize.
Hmm. Is the fact that there is no ID hypothesis after over three decades since it came to be substituted for creationism (Of Pandas and People, anyone, "cdesignproponentsists", 1987, Edwards vs Aiguillar?) an irrelevant shortcoming? I would suggest that is a central, significant and fatal shortcoming.Alan Fox
November 3, 2022
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Nobody here has suggested that you make bad arguments because you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked.
Yes, this exactly. What Dawkins said has no bearing on the conversations going on at UD. In fact it seems to me that ID supporters cite Dawkins far more than ID critics do. I've read several of Dawkins's books, and the only thing valuable I learned was from a long footnote in The God Delusion about why moths tend to fly towards electric lights. Michael Ruse blurbed for McGrath and McGrath's The Dawkins Delusion, "The God Delusion makes me embarrassed to be an atheist, and the McGraths show why." I'm not an atheist, but having read both of those books, I think I understand where Ruse was coming from. Also, not that it matters, but Dawkins's actual quote was not about theists or design theorists. What he said was, "“It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane, (or wicked, but I’d rather not consider that).” In other words, he's not even referring to theists in general or to design theorists in general -- he's referring to creationists.PyrrhoManiac1
November 3, 2022
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Nobody here has suggested that you make bad arguments because you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked.
So are they then good arguments? If not, why not?jerry
November 3, 2022
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Do Design Thinkers, Theists And The Like “Always” Make Bad Arguments Because They Are “All” Ignorant, Stupid, Insane Or Wicked? An excellent example of erecting a strawman for subsequent toppling. Nobody here has suggested that you make bad arguments because you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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Some design thinkers are obviously obsessed. But nearly all anti ID advocates are also obviously obsessed. What drives them to never make a coherent argument on what they advocate? Is it because they can’t? It surely is not because they don’t want to. But incoherence is their norm. They will pick an irrelevant shortcoming of an ID argument to criticize. They are obsessed with irrelevant minutiae. In 17 years commenting here there has only been one honest one. Truth or understanding does not seem to be the objective, however, for either side.jerry
November 3, 2022
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