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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Again, for record.

Comments
Let's have a look at KF's post-script:
We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.
Notice the first two sentences, using "function" and "sequence" as if they were the same thing. We know amino-acids form linear sequences that in some cases are synthesized in cells and have particular functions. The theoretical number of amino-acid sequences is the number of amino-acids found in proteins (ignoring post-translational modification, 20) raised to the power of the number of residues in a putative sequence. For an average-sized protein of 300 residues, this is an enormous, though not infinite, number, 20^300. So, for evolution to find a particular sequence of 300 amino-acids, the task would take maybe longer than the life of the universe. Of course, this assumes one single sequence in the whole "haystack" must be found for an organism to acquire the function possessed my that sequence. I hope people are ahead of me here. Why on Earth should there only be one needle, one unique sequence with a function? And why must it be found, springing fully forth etc? Does a search need to be exhaustive, or can functions be good enough till something better turns up? These assumptions need to be true for KF's "islands of function" to work. They are demonstrably false.Alan Fox
November 4, 2022
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PS, the proposed mechanisms of macro evolution are in fact blind search. All of that stuff on chance variation plus differential reproductive success leading to hill climbing and changing populations thus descent with [unlimited] modification etc. As, all of the former hot debates on evolutionary search, evolutionary algorithms and genetic algorithms implied.kairosfocus
November 4, 2022
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AF, you just admitted the point regarding islands of function, that is what admitting that fitness functions model niches directly implies, highly restricted, relatively small domains. And, as this is what you and others decided to try to gin up into why my argumentation as a whole is to be dismissed, I added an update on the specific matter that allows me to bring to the table video and image elements that are otherwise not accessible because of UD's high security settings. KFkairosfocus
November 4, 2022
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I just put up a summary on why there naturally are islands of function in seas of non function in large configuration spaces, and an outline of why this is well supported.
You love your post-editing, don't you. It really does make you look unserious.Alan Fox
November 4, 2022
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...“a fitness landscape models a niche.” yes, so it is a tightly localized phenomenon...
Where did I suggest that? You are confusing maps and territory. The niche is the reality. An individual bacterium in my gut is fairly localized, but the survival and reproduction of that bacterium is dependent on my survival, which is in turn dependent on the survival of the planet and ultimately this universe. I can't practically model all the variables of reality, but in many instances a simplified model will produce useful predictive results.Alan Fox
November 4, 2022
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So what makes the difference between the ID perspective and the Darwinian one? It’s an argument over whether a mechanism — natural selection – can navigate in situations where there’s no function to select.
Couple of points: evolution is not a search. Populations of organisms are not looking for better solutions, they are living, reproducing, and dying. The niche, metaphorically speaking, is the problem and selection is the algorithm that finds solutions. Looking back at comments in the thread I linked to in comment 52, this was discussed at some length. Open the link and use "find in page" (or your browser's option) and key in Elizabeth Liddle.Alan Fox
November 4, 2022
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AF, as usual, you misrepresent the point. Indeed, in your haste to project misunderstanding thus error to me, you just gave away the store: "a fitness landscape models a niche." yes, so it is a tightly localised phenomenon, and as HN -- long time no see -- aptly summarised just now "[t]here’s simply a lot more ways for matter to be put together that don’t produce a complex function than ways that do." I suggest that onlookers take a look at the just added update to OP as objectors seem to have latched on to this as their point of main effort. Which, of course implies they cannot readily undermine 1 - 9 in the OP, which already shatters SG's suggestion that my argumentation is so flawed in general that I am challenged to come up with even one "good argument." Instead, what we have is the imposed supposition that complex multi part function is readily, incrementally arrived at by degrees without intelligently directed configuration [so, by blind chance and mechanical necessity needle in haystack searches arriving at shorelines of function leading to hill climbing], which runs so counter to common experience that it is noteworthy. I put it to you that on the contrary to your suggestion, the common suggestion by objectors reflects crooked yardstick thinking in the teeth or readily confirmed empirical evidence. KFkairosfocus
November 4, 2022
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F/N: I just put up a summary on why there naturally are islands of function in seas of non function in large configuration spaces, and an outline of why this is well supported. KFkairosfocus
November 4, 2022
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I think that "islands of function" in its intuitive sense is common ground for both the Darwinian and ID perspectives. Darwin is lauded by many for explaining the development of life. Why do people think the development of life needs explaining? Islands of function. There's simply a lot more ways for matter to be put together that don't produce a complex function than ways that do. So what makes the difference between the ID perspective and the Darwinian one? It's an argument over whether a mechanism -- natural selection - can navigate in situations where there's no function to select.hnorman42
November 4, 2022
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KF, fitness landscapes are models, all of which are wrong but some turn out to be useful. Your inability to understand that a fitness landscape models a niche, which is dynamic in multidimensional ways, including temporally (change over time as well as other dimensions) is a handicap.Alan Fox
November 4, 2022
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Unfortunately, the UD search function only searches for the titles of the OPs. KF has made reference to this outdated “Islands of function/fitness” nonsense very recently. I have only been here for a few months and I remember him using this lame argument.
Prompted by this comment, I used "site.uncommondescent.com islands of function" which returns plenty of hits. [ETA paste into Chrome search, other browsers may vary] I found this one from 2015, for example :https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-foundations/on-active-information-search-islands-of-function-and-fscoi/ The comments thread is fun for déjà-vu fans or for newcomers who might think this stuff changes over time.Alan Fox
November 4, 2022
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SG, zero concession, insubstantial dismissiveness. You are bluffing and you know it. As for your onward dismissiveness of my example of barrier islands you apparently don't know they can come, go, get split, merge, move location, etc. But that is not the issue at core, that is how do you navigate to their shores especially without a map and with very limited resources and crossing vast seas that are not providing supportive resources. That challenge in the age of discovery contributed to a death rate IIRC of 85% and I suspect it was much worse for the original Polynesian voyagers; we hear of the survivors not those who perished in the wastes of the ocean. The issue, in the end, though, is not a descriptive metaphor [which is not original to me, I believe Dembski is the source]and which you obviously resent, but the underlying realities of multi-part function that you seem to be in even deeper denial of. That is, the underlying challenge you refuse to face is that exactingly precise, properly arranged and coupled parts to achieve function are a commonplace phenomenon, one that we see even in text in English and computer code much less many other things. Just ask yourself, why do cells go through such energetically expensive, materials-using procedures with numerical control of assembly machines [mRNA, tRNA, Ribosomes] and the like, in an encapsulated, smart gated metabolic entity, where metabolic process flow networks greatly exceed the complexity of oil refineries? Have you taken time to at least hear out Dr Tour's technical critiques on synthesis exercises? In short, the clues are all around you but this is obviously something that does not fit your preconceptions. KF PS, Let me cite and comment on Menuge, extending his comment beyond just irreducible complexity and the particular iconic case of the flagellum:
IC is a barrier to the usual suggested counter-argument, co-option or exaptation based on a conveniently available cluster of existing or duplicated parts. For instance, Angus Menuge has noted that:
For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met:
C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function. C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time. C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed. C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant. C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly.
( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)
In short, the co-ordinated and functional organisation of a complex system is itself a factor that needs credible explanation. However, as Luskin notes for the iconic flagellum, “Those who purport to explain flagellar evolution almost always only address C1 and ignore C2-C5.” [ENV.]
His criteria C1 - 5 are precisely what we should expect from a basic familiarity with complex, multiple part function. But this in large part extends beyond the IC special case where absence or malfunction of any single core part destroys function. For, it is a commonplace observation that parts must be jointly available, at the right time, in the right place, coordinated/oriented and organised, have interface compatibility and must be properly coupled for function. Even in cases where there is enough redundancy and room for improvement that we do not see critical failure on having a core part missing or malfunctioning, this general pattern obtains.kairosfocus
November 4, 2022
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Kairosfocus: We see here why only small sections of the configuration space will work, with a little tolerance but with vast numbers of non functional arrangements. But you have not shown that all life on Earth, extant and extinct, does not cluster within one of those sections. You THINK they don't because YOU THINK there is no way to get from some life forms to others. But you haven't shown this to be the case. You use lots of analogies and metaphors and lots of numbers but you have not yet established that life forms on Earth are on separate 'islands of function'. If you depend on a concept which hasn't been shown to be true then your argument is faulty. And, in your case, a straw man argument since you don't address the actual argument of universal common descent; you just assume it's not true and then build your 'islands of function' which is backwards.JVL
November 4, 2022
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KF: PS, did you take time to observe that I used drifting barrier islands as an illustration of Islands moving in config spaces, long ago?
Yes, I did. But you never addressed the reality that these islands can move above and below the “surface” over time, eliminating your metaphorical barriers. If you are going to use questionable metaphors to support your opinions, you have to address the weaknesses to your questionable metaphors.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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KF: SG, you double down, and I point you to my response just now to JVL. KF
Many words, but they don’t address my criticism of your “islands of function” nonsense.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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PS, did you take time to observe that I used drifting barrier islands as an illustration of Islands moving in config spaces, long ago? Extending, over centuries what is correct English has changed significantly and programming languages such as Java undergo regular redesign, whilst TRIZ is a whole well built and highly scientific theory of inventive problem solving and technological evolution by design. Again, it is clear who has been ignoring what then erecting and knocking over strawmen. You have yet to show a substantial, cogent analysis, continuing the Dawkins no concession, hyperskeptical rhetoric of contempt. You are instead giving us every reason to infer that we are seeing crooked yardstick thinking, doublethink and confession by projection to the other.kairosfocus
November 3, 2022
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SG, you double down, and I point you to my response just now to JVL. KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2022
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JVL, I see:
One that I find particularly egregious is his notions of there being ‘islands of function’ in the biological landscape, implying that the differences between known lifeforms is too great to have been traversed by step-wise variation. Which is bad because it completely ignores the base unguided evolutionary arguments that a) the initial life forms were dead-simple compared to what is extant now and b) that all existing pairs of lifeforms have a common ancestor meaning that it’s not necessary to get from a duck to a human, no one thinks that is even possible without travelling back up the evolutionary family tree which means linking to life forms which no longer exist.
In steps of thought: >>One that I find particularly egregious is his notions of there being ‘islands of function’ in the biological landscape,>> 1: Actually, the issue is far wider than biology, it is about the rather familiar logic of configuration based functional organisation where many parts have to match together, be correctly oriented, arranged, organised and coupled to work. Consider here the fishing reel, a watch, an oil refinery etc. Without very particular organisation no relevant function, this is a readily observed commonplace for anyone who has had to get the right spare part for a gadget, and a breach of such common sense is not a good place for your objection to begin. 2: Or, given that description languages such as autocad can in effect tell us how to organise anything, discussion on text strings is WLOG, and in fact has been recognised since Cicero. So, let us WLOG ponder the infinite monkeys confession by Wiki:
[Wikipedia confesses regarding the infinite monkeys theorem:] The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation. One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed,
"VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t"
The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[26] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulated a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters:
RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d...
[ACC: Dec 17, 2019. NB: Where, also, as this is a digital age, we will readily see that we can compose a description language and then create a string of yes/no questions to specify any reasonable object -- as say AutoCAD etc do. Thus, our seemingly simplistic discussion on bit strings *-*-*- . . . is in fact without loss of generality [WLOG].] [Comment: 16 - 24 ASCII characters is far short of the relevant thresholds, at best, a factor of about 1 in 10^100. Yes, the article goes on to note that "instead of simply generating random characters one restricts the generator to a meaningful vocabulary and conservatively following grammar rules, like using a context-free grammar, then a random document generated this way can even fool some humans." But, that is simply implicitly conceding that design makes a big difference to what can be done. ]
3: We see here why only small sections of the configuration space will work, with a little tolerance but with vast numbers of non functional arrangements. When we see your objection in English text, we know it is most likely a composition by intelligently directed configuration, not a typical result of a random process rr43j57kryd or a repeating pattern of some necessity like a crystal structure or a stuck key sssssssssss . 4: That is, we are looking at narrow zones of effective configurations from a much larger configuration space of possible clumped or scattered arrangements. Hence, a fine tuning issue and hence the metaphor, the challenge is to find shorelines of islands of function in seas of non function. Doubtless you will have seen Dembski's discussion of simply describable targets in much wider configuration spaces. That is effectively the same. 5: We duly note that you have plunked for the idea that complex function is readily, incrementally arranged, functional all the way. Actually, Weasel played off setting up a known target and rewarding increments of nearness, without regard to function. It and its kin injected active information, an act of design. >> implying that the differences between known lifeforms is too great to have been traversed by step-wise variation.>> 6: Start with AA sequence space within wider organic chemistry. Already, just having homochiral AA chains, a known requisite of functional geometry is [with exception of glycine] running at one bit per extra AA in a Darwin pond or the like, where energetically there is no ready difference between mirror image forms, hence why non biological synthesis will normally generate racemic mixtures. 7: To illustrate simply, a typical protein chain is 300 AA long, 2^300 is of course 1.07*10^301, hence islands in the space of possibilities starting with homochirality as a requisite for key-lock fitting based on correct folding of AA chains. As Tour showed, the same issues extend to the other core life compounds. 8: We can then proceed to what, 6,000 fold domains for AA chains, scattered within the space of chains of right chirality, where for many we have one or a few and we have no easy stepping stone pathways, i.e. islands of function are already there at molecular level. Indeed, that readily points to why cell based life forms invest so much energy, complex chemistry and effort in the molecular nanotech of synthesis of the right working molecules. For proteins, we are looking at coded algorithms and chaperone molecules to see to folding. 9: There is absolutely no observational case of a metabolising, self replicating, encapsulated, smart gated -- a requisite of homeostasis required to fend off disintegration -- life architecture that does not rely on such systems. 10: Then of course the deeply integrated process flow system known as cellular metabolism is the next case. We can continue upwards and at every level we find the same configuration based complex functional pattern. >>Which is bad because it completely ignores the base unguided evolutionary arguments>> 11: Strawman, neither I nor Orgel and Wicken, nor Thaxton, Bradley and Olsen, nor Dembsky not Tour nor many others IGNORE the unguided evolutionary arguments. There is considerable analysis and they are found consistently wanting. >> that a) the initial life forms were dead-simple compared to what is extant now>> 12: Kindly, show us a case of a different, actually observed, simpler life architecture that addresses metabolism, encapsulation with smart gating and von Neumann-Drexell kinematic self replication: ___________ Observation, you cannot or you would have given it years ago, and speculations about an RNA world or what might happen to convert such into a different architecture don't count. 13: It is a basic rule of science, for cause, that empirically unfounded speculations on causes, processes etc are not science. Again, I remind of Lyell:
PRINCIPLES OF GEOLOGY: BEING AN INQUIRY HOW FAR THE FORMER CHANGES OF THE EARTH’S SURFACE ARE REFERABLE TO CAUSES NOW IN OPERATION. [--> appeal to Newton's Rules, in the title of the work] BY CHARLES LYELL, Esq, F.R.S. PRESIDENT OF THE GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF LONDON . . . JOHN MURRAY , , , 1835 [--> later, publisher of Origin]
>>and b) that all existing pairs of lifeforms have a common ancestor>> 14: We actually do not have observation of such a common ancestor as distinct from say a common design architecture, and the issue is to get to that common architecture in a Darwin pond or the like, which already shows the significance of the configuration space search challenge. 15: Let us here note, that self replication is an ADDITIONAL factor and note that 50 years before Darwin, in Ch 2 -- as I have drawn to the attention of this Blog's audience and penumbra of critics for a good number of years [so much for "ignoring: and WHO have really been ignoring] -- Paley pointed out its significance in elaborating on his watch thought exercise:
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch [in a field and stumbled on the stone in Ch 1 just past, where this is 50 years before Darwin in Ch 2 of a work Darwin full well knew about] should after some time discover that, in addition to
[--> here cf encapsulated, gated, metabolising automaton, and note, "stickiness" of molecules raises a major issue of interfering cross reactions thus very carefully controlled organised reactions are at work in life . . . ]
all the properties [= specific, organised, information-rich functionality] which he had hitherto observed in it, it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself [--> i.e. self replication, cf here the code using von Neumann kinematic self replicator that is relevant to first cell based life] -- the thing is conceivable [= this is a gedankenexperiment, a thought exercise to focus relevant principles and issues]; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts -- a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools -- evidently and separately calculated for this purpose [--> it exhibits functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information; where, in mid-late C19, cell based life was typically thought to be a simple jelly-like affair, something molecular biology has long since taken off the table but few have bothered to pay attention to Paley since Darwin] . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance, and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done -- for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art
[--> directly echoes Plato in The Laws Bk X on the ART-ificial (as opposed to the strawman tactic "supernatural") vs the natural in the sense of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity as serious alternative causal explanatory candidates; where also the only actually observed cause of FSCO/I is intelligently configured configuration, i.e. contrivance or design]
. . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair -- the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use [--> i.e. design]. . . . . We might possibly say, but with great latitude of expression, that a stream of water ground corn ; but no latitude of expression would allow us to say, no stretch cf conjecture could lead us to think, that the stream of water built the mill, though it were too ancient for us to know who the builder was. What the stream of water does in the affair is neither more nor less than this: by the application of an unintelligent impulse to a mechanism previously arranged, arranged independently of it and arranged by intelligence, an effect is produced, namely, the corn is ground. But the effect results from the arrangement. [--> points to intelligently directed configuration as the observed and reasonably inferred source of FSCO/I] The force of the stream cannot be said to be the cause or the author of the effect, still less of the arrangement. Understanding and plan in the formation of the mill were not the less necessary for any share which the water has in grinding the corn; yet is this share the same as that which the watch would have contributed to the production of the new watch . . . . Though it be now no longer probable that the individual watch which our observer had found was made immediately by the hand of an artificer, yet doth not this alteration in anywise affect the inference, that an artificer had been originally employed and concerned in the production. The argument from design remains as it was. Marks of design and contrivance are no more accounted for now than they were before. In the same thing, we may ask for the cause of different properties. We may ask for the cause of the color of a body, of its hardness, of its heat ; and these causes may be all different. We are now asking for the cause of that subserviency to a use, that relation to an end, which we have remarked in the watch before us. No answer is given to this question, by telling us that a preceding watch produced it. There cannot be design without a designer; contrivance, without a contriver; order [--> better, functionally specific organisation], without choice; arrangement, without any thing capable of arranging; subserviency and relation to a purpose, without that which could intend a purpose; means suitable to an end, and executing their office in accomplishing that end, without the end ever having been contemplated, or the means accommodated to it. Arrangement, disposition of parts, subserviency of means to an end, relation of instruments to a use, imply the presence of intelligence and mind. No one, therefore, can rationally believe that the insensible, inanimate watch, from which the watch before us issued, was the proper cause of the mechanism we so much admire m it — could be truly said to have constructed the instrument, disposed its parts, assigned their office, determined their order, action, and mutual dependency, combined their several motions into one result, and that also a result connected with the utilities of other beings. All these properties, therefore, are as much unaccounted for as they were before. Nor is any thing gained by running the difficulty farther back, that is, by supposing the watch before us to have been produced from another watch, that from a former, and so on indefinitely. Our going back ever so far brings us no nearer to the least degree of satisfaction upon the subject. Contrivance is still unaccounted for. We still want a contriver. A designing mind is neither supplied by this supposition nor dispensed with. If the difficulty were diminished the farther we went back, by going back indefinitely we might exhaust it. And this is the only case to which this sort of reasoning applies. "Where there is a tendency, or, as we increase the number of terms, a continual approach towards a limit, there, by supposing the number of terms to be what is called infinite, we may conceive the limit to be attained; but where there is no such tendency or approach, nothing is effected by lengthening the series . . . , And the question which irresistibly presses upon our thoughts is. Whence this contrivance and design ? The thing required is the intending mind, the adapted hand, the intelligence by which that hand was directed. This question, this demand, is not shaken off by increasing a number or succession of substances destitute of these properties; nor the more, by increasing that number to infinity. If it be said, that upon the supposition of one watch being produced from another in the course of that other's movements, and by means of the mechanism within it, we have a cause for the watch in my hand, namely, the watch from which it proceeded — I deny, that for the design, the contrivance, the suitableness of means to an end, the adaptation of instruments to a use, all of which we discover in the watch, we have any cause whatever. It is in vain, therefore, to assign a series of such causes, or to allege that a series may be carried back to infinity; for I do not admit that we have yet any cause at all for the phenomena, still less any series of causes either finite or infinite. Here is contrivance, but no contriver; proofs of design, but no designer. [Paley, Nat Theol, Ch 2]
16: Of course, 150 years later, von Neumann elaborated what goes into a kinematic self replicator and in recent years Drexell pioneered nanotech discussion. Remember, self replication has to be seamlessly integrated into the architecture. A tall order. >> meaning that it’s not necessary to get from a duck to a human,>> 17: Strawman, as you full well know the focal case is and ever since Thaxton et al in 1984 has been OoL, in a darwin pond or the like. First get to the functional self replicating cell, then go on to how complex body plans come about that on estimates and observation require genomes of 10 - 100+ million bases, with appropriate information content. 18: Which brings up a forest of strawmen on how information content of FSCO/I cannot be identified, in an age where we routinely observe file sizes. >>no one thinks that is even possible without travelling back up the evolutionary family tree>> 19: Strawman fallacy carried forward. The first issue is to show observed effective causal mechanisms with OoL as key case, then to show same for diverse complex multicellular organism body plans. Clearly not done or it would be summarised and triumphantly linked. >> which means linking to life forms which no longer exist.>> 20: Strawman fallacy further carried forward. Answer to the Newton Rule challenge seen in the very title of Lyell's book. KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2022
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KF: As a simple illustration, put the parts of the fishing reel in a bait bucket and shake, it is maximally unlikely that they will ever fall together into a functional configuration. Fail. KF
Thankfully, nobody has ever suggested that this is what happened. Your straw windmill is looking elegant.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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KF: SG, you know full well that a turnabout projection is an evasion not an argument
World, I present to you the KF evasion of a legitimate criticism. How is providing a counter-argument to your much flaunted “islands of function/fitness” a turnabout projection? Or is this just the way you respond when you don’t have a cogent response? Please present your “islands of function/fitness” nonsense taking time into account.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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SG, you know full well that a turnabout projection is an evasion not an argument. Further, you know we are contingent creatures and so do not exhaust possible designing intelligences. Therefore, while we show what patterns intelligence may provide that indicate intelligently directed configuration, we do not exhaust the possible and actual lists. Beaver dams were discussed here over a decade ago as a case in point. Now, you suppress the other issue, we have seen three key causal factors ever since Plato in the Laws Bk X, highlighted by a key omission by Monod in his title, Chance and Necessity, where as Plato noted, we also have Art. In the case of items of sufficient complexity, the implied configuration space of possible arrangements becomes so large that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity are maximally implausible as on the gamut of the sol system or the observed cosmos, they could only search a negligible fraction thus being well below what we know intelligences do. As a simple illustration, put the parts of the fishing reel in a bait bucket and shake, it is maximally unlikely that they will ever fall together into a functional configuration. Fail. KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2022
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Jerry: When was the last time the islands of fitness was discussed?
Unfortunately, the UD search function only searches for the titles of the OPs. KF has made reference to this outdated “Islands of function/fitness” nonsense very recently. I have only been here for a few months and I remember him using this lame argument. I think it best to let KF respond to this.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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When was the last time the islands of fitness was discussed? I just went through 5 different ID books and it wasn’t discussed. I will continue to search for it. The last OP here on it by Kf looks to be 7 1/2 years ago. There was one by GPuccio over four years ago and Kf comments. This seems to be an endorsement of Kf’s arguments. He’s made several hundred and I am not even sure this one is bad.jerry
November 3, 2022
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JVL@35, I agree with your criticism of KF’s “islands of function” straw windmill (I am appropriating VL’s term :) the residual cheque is in the mail). KF’s faulty logic in this respect is that he is looking at the biosphere without taking time into account. If all conditions remained unchanged over time, then KF would have a potentially valid argument. The “islands” would remain elevated above the biological landscape. But things don’t remain unchanged over time. Environments change. Geographies change. Ocean circulation and volcanic activity change. Population and competition pressures change. When you add time to KF’s “islands of function”, you no longer have islands. A better analogy would be a storm-tossed sea. His “islands” being the crests of the waves one day, the troughs the next.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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KF: Show us a single actually observed case where reliably FSCO/I came about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity and it will fail.
You first. Show us a single actually observed case where reliably FSCO/I came about without human intervention.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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In my mind, Dawkins peaked with the publication of The Selfish Gene. It didn’t change evolutionary theory, but it did present a different way to visualize it.Sir Giles
November 3, 2022
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Jerry: It is understood by ID advocates that the creator of the universe and solar system could have set up initial conditions so that life could form and complex changes could have also happened. But many, many ID proponents say that further development was limited by certain conditions, certain highly-improbable variations (which could not have plausibly happened in the history of the universe) which implies that quite a lot of tweaking along the way was required. Dr Behe makes that explicit argument does he not? I have been asking ID proponents for years: do you think the whole thing was front-loaded or has there been uncountable numbers of tweaks along the way and very, very few were willing to even offer an opinion on that matter. Perhaps the ID community would like to clear that point up first thing?JVL
November 3, 2022
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Jerry: So what are his bad arguments? One that I find particularly egregious is his notions of there being 'islands of function' in the biological landscape, implying that the differences between known lifeforms is too great to have been traversed by step-wise variation. Which is bad because it completely ignores the base unguided evolutionary arguments that a) the initial life forms were dead-simple compared to what is extant now and b) that all existing pairs of lifeforms have a common ancestor meaning that it's not necessary to get from a duck to a human, no one thinks that is even possible without travelling back up the evolutionary family tree which means linking to life forms which no longer exist. But Kairosfocus continues to push this argument even though he's clearly set up and knocked down a straw man instead of the real unguided evolutionary rationale. Also, I think Kairosfocus, despite all his attempts at mathie-ness, has failed to provide a mathematically rigourous definition of FSCIO or whatever letters are involved. If he had a strict, clear definition then it would be possible to take any given example and measure it against the definition. But, since the criterium doesn't exist it's impossible to say, without ambiguity, what is and what is not FSCIO. Please note: I have had commenters on this forum say just the act of typing a number sequence into a comment makes it designed. Maybe designed has nothing to do with being complex or specified or functional but, again, that would point out how ill-defined all the terms used are. For the purposes of design detection. Also please note: I understand using the source of a sequence as an argument as to where or not it was designed however ALL ID proponents assume that DNA sequences were designed when their generation is what is in question. That's a circular argument. Otherwise, we're back to design detection and FSCIO which, as I noted is not well enough defined to be used for any given example BECAUSE you always get asked for the source of the sequence.JVL
November 3, 2022
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PS, I just added to point 7, OP two diagrams illustrating why we need finitely remote first plausibles including self evident truths (but of course going far beyond such). In effect I view worldviews as grand scale explanatory constructs to be addressed on comparative difficulties. F/N, Ari, Met, 1006a: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D4%3Asection%3D1006a
[1006a] [1] and say that it is possible to hold this view. Many even of the physicists adopt this theory. But we have just assumed that it is impossible at once to be and not to be, and by this means we have proved that this is the most certain of all principles.Some, indeed, demand to have the law proved, but this is because they lack education1; for it shows lack of education not to know of what we should require proof, and of what we should not. For it is quite impossible that everything should have a proof; the process would go on to infinity, so that even so there would be no proof.2 If on the other hand there are some things of which no proof need be sought, they cannot say what principle they think to be more self-evident. Even in the case of this law, however, we can demonstrate the impossibility by refutation, if only our opponent makes some statement. If he makes none, it is absurd to seek for an argument against one who has no arguments of his own about anything, in so far as he has none; for such a person, in so far as he is such, is really no better than a vegetable.And I say that proof by refutation differs from simple proof in that he who attempts to prove might seem to beg the fundamental question, whereas if the discussion is provoked thus by someone else, refutation and not proof will result.The starting-point for all such discussions is not the claim that he should state that something is or is not so [20] (because this might be supposed to be a begging of the question), but that he should say something significant both to himself and to another (this is essential if any argument is to follow; for otherwise such a person cannot reason either with himself or with another);and if this is granted, demonstration will be possible, for there will be something already defined. But the person responsible is not he who demonstrates but he who acquiesces; for though he disowns reason he acquiesces to reason. Moreover, he who makes such an admission as this has admitted the truth of something apart from demonstration [so that not everything will be "so and not so"]. Thus in the first place it is obvious that this at any rate is true: that the term "to be" or "not to be" has a definite meaning; so that not everything can be "so and not so." Again, if "man" has one meaning, let this be "two-footed animal."By "has one meaning" I mean this: if X means "man," then if anything is a man, its humanity will consist in being X. And it makes no difference even if it be said that "man" has several meanings, provided that they are limited in number; 1 sc., in logic. 2 Every proof is based upon some hypothesis, to prove which another hypothesis must be assumed, and so on ad infinitum. Aristotle. Aristotle in 23 Volumes, Vols.17, 18, translated by Hugh Tredennick. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1933, 1989.
kairosfocus
November 3, 2022
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SG, meanwhile, you need to either substantiate your accusations on the ten main arguments summarised in the OP or stand exposed of indulging ill founded zero concession hyperskepticism. Where, kindly note that abductive arguments rely on comparing alternatives to infer a best explanation, while an infinite regress of proofs is infeasible. we really are forced to start with first plausibles. KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2022
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