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[L&FP 39:] Implication logic is pivotal to understanding how we think as duty-bound rational creatures

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In recent months we have had several forum threads, which naturally tend to throw up onward topics worth headlining. Here, I will headline some observations on implication logic in deductive and in inductive reasoning.

However, first, the core of the logic of implication.

Implication Truth Table, notice how the only case where the implication is not true is if p is true and q false (HT Wiki)

Algebraically, p => q is analysed as ~[p AND ~q]. Interpreted, for whatever reason, p being so is sufficient for q to also be so. This compound proposition does NOT assert that p, only that p is sufficient for q. Similarly, q is NECESSARY for p, i.e. if q can be false and p true, q is not implied by p.

As a bare structure, this is termed material implication, fleshing out the why of the implication brings in issues of cause, logic of being, mathematical relations, semantics, imposed conditions in a process flow etc.

As a subtlety, if we apply this structure to the classic syllogism,

A: Socrates is a man
B: Men are mortal
_____________________
C: Socrates is mortal

. . . we will see that p = [A AND B] with p => q entails that

[A => q and/or B => q ]

It turns out, yes. The propositions in the syllogism overlap and interact, one draws out and applies a meaning implicit in the other. The set, men is a subset of the set, mortals. That Socrates is a man only stipulates that Socrates is a member of that subset of mortals. Socrates is a man is sufficient for his mortality, and Men are mortal is sufficient for any particular case of man to be mortal. Syllogisms and implications interact in unexpected ways, sometimes. But that is where insights surface.

Yes, too, a similar analysis can be done on the truth table equivalent form, ~p AND/OR q; as is shown. (I here emphasise the inclusive or rather than the exclusive one [XOR], vel not aut as Latin distinguishes.)

The second form surfaces a hidden property, the principle of explosion.

A false antecedent, p, can and does often entail a true consequent q; however it is also prone to imply false ones. A true antecedent will only imply true consequents. That is a key property, truth preservation. Also, this is where ex falso quodlibet comes from: when p is [x AND ~x], it materially entails anything, becoming an expression of meaninglessness. That said, in modelling we often pose a “simplified” antecedent to derive correct results in a tested zone of reliability.

That becomes important in science and engineering. In the latter as models are a major design technique. In science as we see that hypotheses and theories are not shown to be strictly true by predictive success, only to be empirically reliable in a given domain of successful testing. Our confidence in theories ought to be tempered by the concept that a scientific law, hypothesis or theory boils down to being at best an empirically reliable, possibly true model. Sometimes, not even that. (The pessimistic induction that across times many grand theories generally taken as true failed empirically, beckons.)

With that in mind, we now may clip our comment of interest, to see how implication works out on the ground so to speak. Here, I assert that “[t]he role of implication logic is central, both as proof structure and explanation structure.” Expanding:

[Law/Duty thread, 1184;] Where, p => q, we are often tempted to reason
p => q but I reject q, so I reject p,
however, when p is self-evident, that rejection clings to absurdity:
I reject p, but p is self evident means ~p is absurd [in various ways]

However, we can arbitrarily redefine terms, manipulate opinion, play lawfare, build up corrupted systems and the like to support ~p, especially when entrenched interests and ideological agendas are at stake. History since 1789 and especially from 1917 speaks on this in rivers of blood and tears.

Such leads to a breakdown of rationality, organisations, societies and more.

Likewise, where q is a composite of observations o1, o2 . . . on
We may ask, which p currently best explains such of p1, p2 . . . pm
At an earlier stage, we may examine the set of observations to sketch out possible explanations.

This is abductive reasoning, a key form of modern sense inductive logic.

We propose criteria of ranking, typically tied to factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power [ elegantly simple, not simplistic or ad hoc]

This introduces issues of discernment and judgement as is typical of inductive reasoning

In this process, self evident first principles and duties are involved but are not generally sufficient to determine the overall decision. Prudence becomes pivotal and so the habitual discipline to build it up is vital to intellectual thriving.

Factual adequacy is an appeal to truth [and, when is a claimed fact so is material].

Coherence is an appeal to right reason and principles of logic including distinct identity and close corollaries non contradiction and excluded middle.

Explanatory balance involves discernment and the whole involves prudence including the judgement when a conclusion is well warranted.

So, when such are systematically undermined in a culture, the ability to think reliably and soundly is undermined.

For practical import, look all around.

We now see how first duties of reason pervade real world rational inference. First, in logic of implication, with p as a self-evident truth as a key special case. If you doubt the reality of self-evidence, let me add a further clip to show by example that self-evident truths do exist:

[Laws/duties, 1172:] 1] || + ||| –> |||||, symbolically, 2 + 3 = 5; undeniable on pain of absurdity and demonstrating that the class is non-empty. Split your fingers into a two set and a three set, join them as a five set.

2] The Josiah Royce proposition: E – error exists. This is manifestly familiar from sums exercises with red X’s. But it is not just a massively empirically supported truth and one that is a general consensus. It is undeniable. Let the denial be ~E. Already to assert ~E entails, it would be an error to assert E. So, undeniably, E. E is true, undeniably, necessarily, self evidently true. It is also warranted to incorrigible certainty. It is empirically discoverable and a widespread consensus. It is known truth. Accordingly, general skepticism denying possibility of knowledge, fails. So do radical relativism and subjectivism, which deny the possibility of objectively warranted and undeniably demonstrated knowledge.

3] Moral case study and yardstick I: it is self evidently wrong, willfully wicked, inherently criminal and evil to kidnap, bind, sexually torture and murder a young child for one’s pleasure. Those who deny or dismiss or evade this do not overthrow the truth, they simply reveal their absurdities or worse. This also shows that the weak and inarticulate have rights and are owed justice. Might does not make right, manipulation does not make rights out of thin air.

Next, in abductive form inductive reasoning. The evaluation of which candidate explanation best accounts for empirical observations draws on appeals to first duties of reason even more intensely than deductive forms that rely on our implicitly accepted duties to truth and rationality, prudence and so too warrant.

Yes, things are that dire. We need to go back to and start afresh from clarifying ABC first principles to sort out where we are; when as a civilisation we ought instead to have long since been a shining example and teacher to the world. END

PS: Just to make it crystal clear where this leads, first the plumb line test:

So, too, for example, we see the first truths of logic:

And, here are more, set in the context of first duties of reason . . . unlike a computer or a rock, we can choose to disregard logic, truth, prudence etc:

Inescapable? The objector, to gain rhetorical traction invariably appeals to our implicit recognition of the first duties, and the one who tries to prove them does so too. These are therefore first duties that pervade reasoning and by and large move us to acknowledge them (save when it is too inconvenient).

Comments
WJM: I pause to comment: >>Only, MRT does no such thing, so there is no “crack.” MRT holds the testimony of our senses about our common world as non-dubious and real.>> 1: You shift goal-posts here to the signal as processed is the focal reality, the matter is the general veridicality of what our senses testify to in relevant context, our macro-scale reality. >> It holds the common world as non-dubious and real.>> 2: On your repeated arguments, that is not the case, you are here trying to redefine the world to perceptions thereof and to substitute perceptions as focal reality. Instead, our perceptions help us navigate and appropriately adapt to reality, e.g. the car rushing down the road out of control as we try to cross the street. >>After the discovery that the non-dubious, common world is not comprised of indivisible, concrete material “atoms,”>> 3: The common macro scale world has solids, liquids, gases (and other more exotic phenomena such as plasmas and glasses etc). As I noted, solidity has to do with volume and general shape retention [neglecting elastic deformation etc for the moment], liquidity with volume conservation but without ability to resist shear leading to flow under its own weight. Gases can have identifiable mass but retain neither shape nor volume. Those phenomena are fundamental in their own right, have reality as such. 4: The conception of the atom, ab initio, was an abstraction: halve a body of some substance, halve again, repeat. Can that continue without limit or will it hit an ultimate. The Greek rejection of infinite successive finite stage process in particular and of the infinite as concrete actuality in general led them to identify an indivisible, a-tomos. 5: Subsequent refinement led to distinguishing mixtures from compounds and elements thence identification of molecules and atoms. A compound came from atoms of diverse elements and was the base particle of the substance like water. Atoms were the base particles of elements like O2 to O + O. Beyond, ions affect electron configuration and nuclear transformations change elements. 6: So, solidity is a structural phenomenon, a composite effect, as is liquidity [in effect enough holes that flow becomes readily possible]. Borders of objects are set by intermolecular repulsions, and are again an interaction that explains how the macro phenomenon arises, it does not undermine its reality. 7: So, material objects are composed of spatially arranged, interacting atoms in space, with various energy related characteristics. For instance, colour. >> but was 99% “empty space,”>> 8: That the constituents of atoms are wavicles with field phenomena does not undermine that there is a macro-level solidity, it is the physical source of how solidity arises. >>a new model of that non-dubious world revealed by our senses was required.>> 8a: No, we gained insight into how solids come to be and why they have the properties they have. That did not replace solidity with something else. >> The discoveries made by quantum physics research have required new models of that non-dubious world revealed by our senses. >> 9: The quantum results give us insight into the micro level, and how that works to build up the macro level. 10: This weirdly echoes the micro macro economics debate. Just because we can go down to transactions and markets [already aggregation] does not make the macro phenomena vanish, poof. There are times of prosperity, growth, recession. >>MRT is such a model. It doesn’t make the non-dubious world dubious;>> 11: No, you have NOT discussed in terms of a theory of sensation and perception tied to intellectual reflection but in terms of replacing "external reality theory" with your preferred "mental reality theory." 12: it is that radical switch pivoting on categorising and dismissing of "external reality theory" as which is questionable and self-referentially self-undermining. >>it doesn’t make our sensory capacities of that world less reliable.>> 13: The substitution leads straight to the radical doubt of the common physical world we inhabit, sense and interact with. >>All you are doing is claiming it is so without demonstrating that it is a necessary logical implication of MRT.>> 14: I have explicitly identified that the explicit denial, the making out to be highly probable or the simple invitation to inference that our perceptions and experience of the physical world are alike opening the door to grand delusion. I have even included another perception, conscience. 15: There are no firewalls in the mind so any undermining of the general veridicality of a main faculty of mind undermines the mind. 16: Yes, we are prone to particular errors but any scheme that cultivates corrosive general doubt is self-defeating. 17: Hence, my pointing to the common sense balance and to the parallel of imperfect instruments such as the telescope. >> To do that, you’d have to argue from MRT,>> 18: Not at all, one may infer implications or invited ideas without adopting a theory. >>which means asking questions about it until you can at least understand whether or not your objection is even valid (it isn’t.)>> 19: I and others have read your presentations. We have raised concerns. We see your responses. 20: The fundamental concern can be seen in the first case from simply your contrast of external vs mental reality and attachment of theory. The doubt you cast on external reality by reducing it to a theory is readily apparent and the grand delusion issue instantly arises. 21: I believe in consciousness, it is my experience and a reasonable inference from others around. I believe in rationality beyond GIGO-limited blind dynamic-stochastic processing of computational substrates; which cannot account for rational responsible freedom. I believe my senses on the whole and with due limitations etc give a generally true window on reality that is independent of me and is shared with other creatures. 22: That is pre-theoretical and part of how I can theorise. So, theories that undermine or invite undermining, will slide into self-referential grand delusion. KFkairosfocus
April 4, 2021
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We can go at this another way; by proposing that world exists that is external of mind. IOW, the information for that set of mental experiences is instantiated, or encoded, in some non-mental substrate. The claim is that that set of information coded into a non-mental substrate is access by our senses and, through a set protocols, represented accurately as qualia, or experiences that occur in mind. What does that addition bring to the table? Absolutely nothing. In fact, it brings in unnecessary additional problems. For instance, ERT necessarily means that we are not, and cannot be, directly experiencing that external world; all we can hope is that our mental representation of that world is accurate; that the information we get from it, and our processing protocols, are accurately simulating that external world as representational qualia. Under ERT, the representational qualia are not reality; they are a simulation (representational mental qualia) of the reality we don't have direct access to. MRT defines "reality" (at least in terms of the objective, common world) AS the common, shared, non-dubious, scientifically investigable and mutually verifiable experiences of the information set. IOW, we are directly experiencing reality - which is defined as "shared data set processed via the same protocols into mutually consistent qualia." Under MRT, that is the definition of the reality of what we call the objective world. Under MRT, we are directly experiencing reality; under ERT, we can only be experiencing a simulation of a reality we can never hope to verify or directly access. Yet, KF argues that one of the pitfalls of MRT is that it renders "reality" to be a simulation, when it is actually only MRT that can offer us direct experiential access of reality.William J Murray
April 3, 2021
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KF @169,
There is no good reason to hold the testimony of our senses about our common world fundamentally dubious tantamount to false.
Only, MRT does no such thing, so there is no "crack." MRT holds the testimony of our senses about our common world as non-dubious and real. It holds the common world as non-dubious and real. After the discovery that the non-dubious, common world is not comprised of indivisible, concrete material "atoms," but was 99% "empty space," a new model of that non-dubious world revealed by our senses was required. The discoveries made by quantum physics research have required new models of that non-dubious world revealed by our senses. MRT is such a model. It doesn't make the non-dubious world dubious; it doesn't make our sensory capacities of that world less reliable. All you are doing is claiming it is so without demonstrating that it is a necessary logical implication of MRT. To do that, you'd have to argue from MRT, which means asking questions about it until you can at least understand whether or not your objection is even valid (it isn't.) I realize that's what MRT may look like from the perspective of your worldview, but that isn't a valid objection. Until you undermine MRT from the inside, from it's own premises, nothing you say about it matters. Certainly, defending your worldview is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Can you tell me, from it's own internal logic, drawing from it's own premises, how MRT is logically faulty? 1. All things as information, experiences and consciousness exist in the realm of universal mind. 2. What we experience as the objective, external world is a discrete set of shared information translated by discrete, shared protocols into shared, verifiable, discrete experiences of that information set. 3. This makes that world and the individuals experiencing it real and objectively existent, able to be scientifically investigated and mutually verified. 4. There are other discrete categories of mental phenomena, like logic and imaginative fantasy, that have their own distinct qualities which are easily identifiable and distinguishable by observers. 5. Delusion occurs when one cannot successfully identify and distinguish between two or more categories of mental phenomena, such as between the "objective world" and imaginative fantasy or hallucination. 6. Even under ERT, all experiences supposedly of ERT are mental experiences; thus failure to discern between the mental experience of an external (of mind) world and fantasy or hallucination is still failure to discern between categories of mental experiences. 7. Thus, MRT has no more of a burden than ERT in safeguarding against against delusion. Now, if you want to argue logically against that, you don't get to bring in "ERT" concepts or argue from that perspective. Show me how the logic fails internally. That we may be almost universally mistaken about the nature of what we are experiencing is no more an argument that MRT is delusional than our being mistaken about matter being the foundation of what we call the objective world represents a prior or current "delusion." A misconception or a mistake does not a delusion make.William J Murray
April 3, 2021
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WJM, I have adequately pointed out the fatal crack in your suggested scheme, it leads first to one then a regress of grand delusion inferences, undermining rationality. There is no good reason to hold the testimony of our senses about our common world fundamentally dubious tantamount to false. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2021
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I guess all possibilities exist from the perspective of nothing. And all possible decisions on the possibilities, also exist. But then there is a difference between what is possible, and what has actually been decided upon. The science about what is possible is the more pure science, than the science about what has been decided, because what is decided is arbitrary. It's the more pure science that something could go either left or right, than to denote the fact that in this instance it went left. So there is the ordering from zero, in terms of what is possible from zero. Logical steps how much something possible is removed from being a single nothing. Then there is some deviation from what is most probable to occur from zero, the actual chosen reality. Then this chosen reality has it's own possibilities.mohammadnursyamsu
April 3, 2021
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Origenes @162, It's not that its in the business of doing so, it cannot help but do so because the potential for every possible thing is inherently part of any possible thing (the cascade of A's and not-A's.) Universal mind/consciousness at that level cannot make decisions; it cannot say "these experiences, not those" or "this thing, not that." Therefore, all.William J Murray
April 3, 2021
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KF @161, "Palpable" is an experienced effect. The formation of the iron filings is an effect. The term "force" is a label for a description that models these effects, including how they affect our senses. The model of the behavior is not the cause of the behavior.William J Murray
April 3, 2021
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KF @163 & 165, Let me know when you realize that our conversation is not about you trying to support your worldview.William J Murray
April 3, 2021
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PS: You tell me this is not the difference imposed by overcoming a limitation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qIRMCHabYQ Where, I add, that I have several pairs of dark glasses for different purposes, often reverting to neutral filters for certain purposes, Amber and green ones for others, and duly note different colour balances. Then, there is the effect of polarising lenses, which allow me to see the plume from the volcano, which is normally lost against the general haze. Note the test here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyzy5phg54Qkairosfocus
April 2, 2021
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WJM, 159: >>What causes experiential qualia is processed information. Those patterns of information (fields, energy, forces) are caused by immaterial rule-sets that organize and process immaterial information. This is painfully obvious at this point.>> 160: >>A set of information is being processed by protocols into experiential qualia no matter what it looks like or how you dress it up.>> That our senses use sensors to transduce signals from the environment and from within our bodies [proprioception] to help us orient ourselves in the world (and in the process per Weber-Fechner on sensing fractional changes, thus implying roughly logarithmic compression] does not entail general inaccuracy or suggest that our picture of the world beyond ourselves is fundamentally dubious. Part of the issue is, distinct identity. We each can and do identify oneself vs otherness, we sense our embodiment in many ways, and we sense the limits of oneself . . . though there is a reasonable argument that we do project a field of conscious awareness beyond our bodies and that this can come to our attention from time to time. We recognise others who are as we are, of course in the two complementary sexes. That leads to communication, family and society. As a part of that, as we have limited lifespan, reproduction involving coitus, gestation, child birth, nurture and education is part of that enduring social reality; all pivoting on our biological embodiment. So is nutrition. So is moving around and being active, with limitations and frustrations that fit a pattern of economic issues. All of this and much more is in a common space and world, which contains a world of objects with their own distinct identities. This leads to the issue of the one and the many, unity, diversity, distinction on cosmos scale. First, when two apparent things are indistinguishable we identify them as the same. This happened with the dawning recognition that the morning and evening wandering stars [planetos means wanderer] are the same object at different phases of its cycle relative to another wanderer, Sol. Obviously, Venus has different characteristics from Sol, and from another wanderer, Mars, not to mention Luna. It took thousands of years to construct a coherent, empirically satisfactory understanding of our solar system, including realising that we too inhabit another wanderer, orbiting Sol in a more or less slightly disturbed ellipse. In the course of which, we developed instruments called telescopes that exploit empirical laws of refraction and reflection to augment our natural vision. Those instruments are a crucial case study. They hold distinct identity, are open to adjustment, have various errors of refraction due to dispersion [different speeds of light for different colours], effects of shape, and even effects of light itself, e.g. diffraction phenomena associated with images. A whole sub science of physics, optics emerged from this and from similar challenges of microscopy. As a result, today, one can spend several hundred to a few thousand dollars and acquire a Schmidt-Cassegrain, short tube, computer mounted 5 or 6 to 10 or 12 inch telescope that far exceeds anything Newton, Galileo et al could dream of. And yes, we still have Newton's two-inch reflector to compare. So, we have here something that is distinct from us, is an instrument of observation, has limitations and yet clearly gives a highly useful, substantially accurate picture of objects on and beyond our world. That picture is then integrated with our body of understanding and knowledge to construct an understanding of the wider universe. Binoculars are a typical case of applied telescopes used here, e.g. when our current family car was on the way from Japan on a certain ship, I could track Internet reports and one day saw it was W of here, heading for Guadeloupe. I fetched a pair of binoculars, went outside and looked offshore near Redonda. There she was, just like in the online pictures, with all the obvious signal and information processing in a not fully reliable global inter-network of computers. A case of surprising apt synthesis involving the whole world. Similarly, anatomists, for centuries, have dissected our visual system and that of animals of many kinds. We find the eye is similar to a close relative of the telescope, the camera, using a flexible lens with variable focus and an array of luminosity and three [or in rare cases four] colour sensing elements, generally fitting the Munsel colour spindle model with RGB sensors. (Originally, used by USDA to analyse soil colour of all things. But then, that ties to soil chemistry.) There is a network of nerves serving as communication wires that convey signals to parts of the brain that process and integrate signals into a whole, in ways that helped to inspire smart sensing technologies, which we again know to be imperfect but adequate for purpose -- see your smart phone and say QR codes. Turning to hearing, we see the same use of an array, here based on resonance of hair cells that are in an array that creates a rough fast fourier transform, again integrated and recognised by smart networks that have inspired speech to text systems. Likewise, for taste and touch, with differing sensor physics. As an extension, the emerging sensory picture is integrated with a similar arrays based sensing of internal bodily state. All of this points to the Reidian picture: we have good reason to accept that we are embodied, conscious creatures with intelligence, able to adequately sense features of the world and of our internal state. Not perfect, adequate. If we are beyond 40 or so, we are most likely familiar with the before/after effect of putting on corrective glasses. And with how the latter picture comports well with our memory -- another adequacy rather than perfection -- of earlier days with sharper vision. There is utterly no good reason to construct a synthetic framework in which we cannot take those adequate senses or the fusion into an awareness of our embodiment in a common world as adequately accurate. Further to which, the resulting inferred false consciousness or at least dubious consciousness does directly point to questions of grand and successive delusions in infinite regress. On inference to best explanation, we have adequate but not perfect senses and awareness of ourselves in our common world. Yes, I here point back to the role of implication logic from OP. Here, at literal world-VIEW synthesis level. KFkairosfocus
April 2, 2021
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W J Murray wrote:
"... everything possible exists: every possibility, every choice, every action, every perspective, every variation."
Why is this the case? What explains the existence of everything possible? I guess your answer is "the universal mind". If so, my follow-up question is : why is the universal mind in the business of producing 'everything possible'?Origenes
April 1, 2021
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WJM forces are palpable and fields are measurable, it is not mere models. Did you do the classroom exercise of iron filings on a sheet of card with a magnet underneath? KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2021
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As far as whether or not any delusion-causing "gulch" is generated, it makes no difference if we model what is going on as the interaction of atomic billiard-balls bouncing off of each other, fields of forces and energy in largely empty space interacting, quantum potentials interacting, or a set of information being processed by protocols into experiential qualia. The ironic thing is, that last model is the root of what is going on regardless of how any other model "instantiates" those commodities. A set of information is being processed by protocols into experiential qualia no matter what it looks like or how you dress it up.William J Murray
April 1, 2021
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KF @158: "A field" of what? Energy? "Energy" or "atomic forces" are descriptive models of effects and patterns of behavior. Models do not cause the experience of solidity. All you have are descriptions of effects and patterns of behavior masquerading as the cause of experiential qualia. What causes experiential qualia is processed information. Those patterns of information (fields, energy, forces) are caused by immaterial rule-sets that organize and process immaterial information. This is painfully obvious at this point. You keep pointing at the pattern as if the pattern causes the pattern. You keep pointing at descriptions as if the description is causing what you are describing.William J Murray
April 1, 2021
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WJM, macro solidity is entirely compatible with that being a field interaction effect. A solid is not a uniformity, it is an entity that can maintain shape and volume under ordinary forces such as weight and contexts such as the atmosphere. Liquids, hold size but not5 shape as they flow under their own weight. Gases hold neither size nor shape, they flow or expand into any containing volume. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2021
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Origenes, If I lead you to believe that about MRT, I apologize. An analogy I gave to KF above might help to understand my position more clearly. All water is comprised of the same thing; H2O. There are different forms of H2O; solid, liquid and vapor. Those are different things comprised entirely of the same essential thing. There is no "control" at the universal mind level, because there is nothing to control - everything possible exists: every possibility, every choice, every action, every perspective, every variation. Also, under MRT the only "coherent" existence is at the non-universal level, where experience is a logic map of cascading exclusionary systems of A and not-A. At the universal level, every A would experientially co-exist with every not-A, so that's not a coherent situation that can be experienced.William J Murray
April 1, 2021
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KF complains that there if there is a gulch between what our senses tell us and what really is, it leaves us in a delusional state. Is that what occurred when we found out that the "solid world" we interacted with, including our own physical bodies, is comprised of 99.9% empty space? Is that what occurred when we found out that there is no actual "matter," or even "energy," at the subatomic level, just a quantum field of potential? KF is trying to make the case that it is intrinsically delusion-causing if one adopts the model that what we're interacting with, at its root, is information. I fail to see how that perspective is qualitatively different, in terms of what we commonly experience not being comprised of that which we previously thought, than how scientific exploration has changed our perspective in the past on this very matter. The physical world we experience is still real and verifiable whether it is, at its root, made of solid atoms, 99.9% empty space and .1% energy, quantum fields of potential or information. It is still entirely separable from other categories of stuff. Individuals are still individuals. Truths and facts can be ascertained. Scientific research is unimpaired. Faulty reasoning, perceptions, delusions and hallucination can still be identified. MRT doesn't represent any greater a potential for "grand delusion" than any other perspective that has the above separable and identifiable qualities.William J Murray
April 1, 2021
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W J M wrote:
I still don’t know what you mean by “one coherent thing.”
What I mean is something quite simple. For instance, a person with one "I" —— IOWs one center of control —— is coherent, as opposed to a person with multiple "I's". Similarly, a country with multiple presidents is incoherent. As I understand it, MRT claims that the universal mind is one thing, it is a unity which does not consist of parts. Unity in this sense does not square with multiple centers of control.Origenes
March 31, 2021
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Origenes @ 151, I still don't know what you mean by "one coherent thing."William J Murray
March 31, 2021
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KF @149, None of that remotely, logically applies to MRT as I've outlined it, for reasons already given many times and outlined above.William J Murray
March 31, 2021
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LCD @150, Happily married for 31 years. 6 children, 13 grandchildren, 2 great-grandchildren, 3 living siblings, 1 deceased, providing many nieces and nephews. I've had one of the most wonderful family lives any human being on the planet has ever been blessed with. Is it important that you negatively characterize everyone you disagree with, or am I a special case?William J Murray
March 31, 2021
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WJM, allow me to restate/simplyfy: 1. According to MRT the universal mind consists of multiple persons at the same time. 2. A person is in control of his own mind. therefore, from (1) and (2) 3. The universal mind is a thing with multiple centers of control at the same time. 4. Any mind (conscious or not) which has multiple centers of control is like a ship with multiple captains — is not one coherent thing. Therefore, from (1), (3) and (4) 5. According to MRT the universal mind is not one coherent thing.Origenes
March 31, 2021
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William J Murray KF @145: If you’re looking for MRT to be explained in terms of ERT, that can’t be done. That’s like trying to explain quantum theory in terms of Newtonian physics. The theory is really pretty simple; it’s just conceptually difficult to understand for someone steeped in habitual external-world thought. Let me see if I can break this down to simplistic values. Whatever “the objective physical world” is, the only thing we can possibly extract from it is information. For that information to become comprehensible experience, there must exist semiotic translation protocols that turn information – wherever it comes from – into comprehensible experience. Thus, any world theorized to exist completely external of any mind (universal or otherwise,) it must contain information somehow instantiated in it, whether that medium is matter, energy, or quantum fields of probability. But, it doesn’t matter how it is instantiated, or what on or in, all we get from it is the information. Information is abstract in nature. Second, semiotic translation protocols must exist that successfully retrieves that information and translates it into comprehensible experience. It doesn’t matter how those protocols are instantiated, semiotic protocols are abstract in nature. Now we have, under MRT, an external (of all mind) world instantiated with abstract information and abstract semiotic protocols that deliver to us a comprehensible set of experiences. How are those experiences so well-coordinated and verifiable and mutually measurable and comprehensible, even under ERT? All observers must be not only accessing the same set of information, the same set of abstract semiotic protocols, or the semiotic interface between the experiencers and the set of information, must be the same or very nearly the same. It doesn’t matter how that information or the interfaces are instantiated; at their root, they are abstract and must be the same across observers (at least to a very large degree.) Same information set, same semiotic translation interface. Now, let’s take the exact same dataset that is supposedly instantiated in a world external of all mind, keep it as a distinct set, and move it into mind. It is still completely distinct from other data sets in mind. Let’s do the same with the semiotic translation protocols; they still exist, intact, as the translation interface between a person and that data set. The data set and protocols, the other people, all continue to exist when I die. The data set and the protocols are not the same as dreams, or accessing and using logic, or accessing and using imaginative fantasy or memories. Memories can be said to be about the same data set, but the protocols are different. Logic and math are their own distinct data set, even though they are used in the “external world” data set and processing protocols. The data for the tree exists whether or not anyone is looking at the tree. So, the tree is real. The experience of the tree is real. It can be measured and scientifically investigated across all users because they are accessing the same information using the same translation protocols. “Grand delusion” doesn’t creep in because we can tell the difference, and verify the difference, between one categorical set of experiences (data set & translation protocols) and another because they are different, actual things in universal mind. What we call “the objective, physical world” is an identifiable, real thing that actually exists regardless of who is, or is not, observing it. We can identify people with faulty translation protocols, or who are suffering a breakdown in distinguishing between the “objective world” information and other sets of information (imaginative fantasy, memory, dreams, hallucinations, etc.) As far as your “monist” objection, here’s an ERT analogy: vaporous, liquid and solid forms of H2O are all made of the same stuff, but they are distinctly different things. Just because “it’s all made of mind” doesn’t mean there isn’t any variety or that there isn’t different kinds of stuff we can use to navigate and evaluate our experiences. You can identify the difference between the solid, physical world (ice) and the more vaporous or ephemeral (imaginative fantasy,) even if they are ultimately made of the same essential stuff – information – and translated through their own protocols. Logic is qualitatively different from memory and dreams, even though no would would argue that those experiences are not all three entirely mental in nature.
My friend , you are so lonely. Start a family.Lieutenant Commander Data
March 31, 2021
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WJM, at the heart of your answer is the Kantian ugly gulch between appearance and reality. There is an answer that was given over 100 years ago, and which was drawn to your attention already. For reference:
We may agree, perhaps, to understand by metaphysics an attempt to know reality as against mere appearance, or the study of first principles or ultimate truths, or again the effort to comprehend the universe, not simply piecemeal or by fragments, but somehow as a whole [--> i.e. the focus of Metaphysics is critical studies of worldviews] . . . . The man who is ready to prove that metaphysical knowledge is wholly impossible . . . himself has, perhaps unknowingly, entered the arena . . . To say the reality is such that our knowledge cannot reach it, is a claim to know reality ; to urge that our knowledge is of a kind which must fail to transcend appearance, itself implies that transcendence. [--> this is the "ugly gulch" of the Kantians] For, if we had no idea of a beyond, we should assuredly not know how to talk about failure or success. And the test, by which we distinguish them, must obviously be some acquaintance with the nature of the goal. Nay, the would-be sceptic, who presses on us the contradictions of our thoughts, himself asserts dogmatically. For these contradictions might be ultimate and absolute truth, if the nature of the reality were not known to be otherwise . . . [such] objections . . . are themselves, however unwillingly, metaphysical views, and . . . a little acquaintance with the subject commonly serves to dispel [them]. [Appearance and Reality, 2nd Edn, 1897 (1916 printing), pp. 1 - 2; INTRODUCTION. At Web Archive.]
There is no good reason to infer that the testimony of our senses is wholly untrustworthy, which is another more roundabout way of leading to grand delusion and its consequences. If our mental processes and consciousness are suspect on the whole, there is no firewall and once any major faculty of mind is discredited, mind is discredited. If we cannot trust that we are appeared to cashew treely or breadfruit or mango or guava treely per presence of relevant treeness, we cannot trust that we are appeared to cashew tree datasetly either. So either we trust that defeatably in detail but veridically on the whole, our awareness of the world puts us in contact with a credible reality or we undermine even our rationality. This is essentially the same issue with the parable of plato's cave, level one grand delusion undermines credibility of mind so the freed prisoner cannot take his next level as trustworthy either. Then, that perception of credibility breakdown goes to level three suspicion, and we have an infinite regress in progress. Hyperskepticism defeats itself. Instead, we start with the common sense view that our senses though limited and prone to error in detail, on the whole are working soundly in their appropriate environment and will deliver generally credible results. They cannot guarantee perfection and they are not detecting the atomic-molecular level etc, but at scale and in their reasonable context they put us in contact with a common world that we can take to be part of reality. Of course there are signals, signal processing, etc. That doesn't mean we cannot take them as credible just because they are informational and information is an abstraction riding on relevant analogue signals which per Weber-Fechner are typically roughly logarithmic and vary in frequency sensitivity. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2021
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KF @145: If you're looking for MRT to be explained in terms of ERT, that can't be done. That's like trying to explain quantum theory in terms of Newtonian physics. The theory is really pretty simple; it's just conceptually difficult to understand for someone steeped in habitual external-world thought. Let me see if I can break this down to simplistic values. Whatever "the objective physical world" is, the only thing we can possibly extract from it is information. For that information to become comprehensible experience, there must exist semiotic translation protocols that turn information - wherever it comes from - into comprehensible experience. Thus, any world theorized to exist completely external of any mind (universal or otherwise,) it must contain information somehow instantiated in it, whether that medium is matter, energy, or quantum fields of probability. But, it doesn't matter how it is instantiated, or what on or in, all we get from it is the information. Information is abstract in nature. Second, semiotic translation protocols must exist that successfully retrieves that information and translates it into comprehensible experience. It doesn't matter how those protocols are instantiated, semiotic protocols are abstract in nature. Now we have, under MRT, an external (of all mind) world instantiated with abstract information and abstract semiotic protocols that deliver to us a comprehensible set of experiences. How are those experiences so well-coordinated and verifiable and mutually measurable and comprehensible, even under ERT? All observers must be not only accessing the same set of information, the same set of abstract semiotic protocols, or the semiotic interface between the experiencers and the set of information, must be the same or very nearly the same. It doesn't matter how that information or the interfaces are instantiated; at their root, they are abstract and must be the same across observers (at least to a very large degree.) Same information set, same semiotic translation interface. Now, let's take the exact same dataset that is supposedly instantiated in a world external of all mind, keep it as a distinct set, and move it into mind. It is still completely distinct from other data sets in mind. Let's do the same with the semiotic translation protocols; they still exist, intact, as the translation interface between a person and that data set. The data set and protocols, the other people, all continue to exist when I die. The data set and the protocols are not the same as dreams, or accessing and using logic, or accessing and using imaginative fantasy or memories. Memories can be said to be about the same data set, but the protocols are different. Logic and math are their own distinct data set, even though they are used in the "external world" data set and processing protocols. The data for the tree exists whether or not anyone is looking at the tree. So, the tree is real. The experience of the tree is real. It can be measured and scientifically investigated across all users because they are accessing the same information using the same translation protocols. "Grand delusion" doesn't creep in because we can tell the difference, and verify the difference, between one categorical set of experiences (data set & translation protocols) and another because they are different, actual things in universal mind. What we call "the objective, physical world" is an identifiable, real thing that actually exists regardless of who is, or is not, observing it. We can identify people with faulty translation protocols, or who are suffering a breakdown in distinguishing between the "objective world" information and other sets of information (imaginative fantasy, memory, dreams, hallucinations, etc.) As far as your "monist" objection, here's an ERT analogy: vaporous, liquid and solid forms of H2O are all made of the same stuff, but they are distinctly different things. Just because "it's all made of mind" doesn't mean there isn't any variety or that there isn't different kinds of stuff we can use to navigate and evaluate our experiences. You can identify the difference between the solid, physical world (ice) and the more vaporous or ephemeral (imaginative fantasy,) even if they are ultimately made of the same essential stuff - information - and translated through their own protocols. Logic is qualitatively different from memory and dreams, even though no would would argue that those experiences are not all three entirely mental in nature.William J Murray
March 31, 2021
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Origenes @144: I'm not sure what case you're trying to make. Is it that from the perspective of universal mind, truth cannot be discerned because existence is incoherent? Are you making the case that truths or coherence cannot be discerned from individual perspective? Not sure what you're referring to - truth about what? Coherent how, from what perspective?William J Murray
March 31, 2021
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question of grand delusion.
In the movie "The Sting" the characters are all coordinating to perform the "Big Con." Here we have an example by someone trying to perform the "Big Troll." Aside: highly recommend the movie "The Sting."jerry
March 31, 2021
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WJM, kindly tell us whether you accept that there are real physical objects independent of our perceptions, opinions and simulations/dream states of core mind etc and constituting a real physical world in which we exist as embodied creatures. Not, whether such worlds depend on a creator with high intelligence for their beginning and for sustaining them, whether they are in effect comparable to a 3-d computer simulation or a dream writ large. That is, when I walk up to the door, put a key in it, open it, walk outside across a lawn, get into a car and drive down to the beach in Carr's Bay, pull a fishing rod, cast and catch say a pompano, despatch, scale and clean it, bring it back, cook and eat said fish, is that all a dream or simulation or are the events and experiences interactions with other equally real material or embodied entities? Those questions of a dream world or simulation are the messages that your assertions tend to communicate, and raise the onward question of grand delusion. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2021
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Argument against MRT: 1. In order to find the truth, it is mandatory for a person to be in control of his mind. 2. Those who seek the truth must assume to be in control of their minds or give up on finding the truth. 3. In order for any mind to be one coherent thing there must be only one center point of control. If there are multiple points of control (if it e.g. consists of multiple persons at the same time) then it cannot be one coherent thing. 4. According to MRT the universal mind consists of multiple persons — multiple points of control — at the same time. Therefor 5. According to MRT the universal mind is not one coherent thing.Origenes
March 31, 2021
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KF @142, All you are doing is arguing against inferences I've already explicitly said are incorrect, about a theory you've clearly demonstrated you do not understand. At least I make a good faith effort to try to understand the perspective of others, KF. You're not even trying. But, that's not why I participate here anyway, so c'est la vie.William J Murray
March 31, 2021
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