Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Dr Raoult Roars — new articles on findings and issues about HCQ + Cocktails for Covid-19

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

IHU- Méditerranée Infection, Marseille, is a significant French research institute that has continued its work on CV 19. For the record, here are excerpts from some recent work, headlined from threads where such would be buried:

EXH 1: >>COVID-IHU #15

Version 1 du 27 Mai 2020
Early diagnosis and management of COVID-19 patients: a real-life cohort study of 3,737 patients, Marseille, France

Abstract

Background:
In our institute in Marseille, France, we proposed early and massive screening for coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Hospitalization and early treatment with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin (HCQ-AZ) was proposed for the positive cases.

Methods:
We retrospectively report the clinical management of 3,737 patients, including 3,054 (81.7%) treated with HCQ-AZ for at least three days and 683 (18.3%) patients treated with other methods (“others”). Outcomes were death, transfer to the intensive care unit (ICU), ? 10 days of hospitalization and viral shedding.

Results:
By testing 101,522 samples by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) from 65,993 individuals, we diagnosed 6,836 patients (10.4%), including 3,737 included in our cohort. The mean age was 45 (sd 17) years, 45% were male, and the fatality rate was 0.9%. We performed 2,065 low-dose computed tomography (CT) scans highlighting lung lesions in 581 of the 933 (62%) patients with minimal clinical symptoms (NEWS score = 0). A discrepancy between spontaneous dyspnoea, hypoxemia and lung lesions was observed. Clinical factors (age, comorbidities, NEWS-2 score), biological factors (lymphopenia; eosinopenia; decrease in blood zinc; and increase in D-dimers, lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), creatinine phosphokinase (CPK), and c-reactive protein (CRP)) and moderate and severe lesions detected in low-dose CT scans were associated with poor clinical outcome. Treatment with HCQ-AZ was associated with a decreased risk of transfer to the ICU or death (HR 0.19 0.12-0.29), decreased risk of hospitalization ?10 days (odds ratios 95% CI 0.37 0.26-0.51) and shorter duration of viral shedding (time to negative PCR: HR 1.27 1.16-1.39). QTc prolongation (>60 ms) was observed in 25 patients (0.67%) leading to the cessation of treatment in 3 cases. No cases of torsade de pointe or sudden death were observed.

Conclusion
Early diagnosis, early isolation and early treatment with at least 3 days of HCQ-AZ result in a significantly better clinical outcome and contagiosity in patients with COVID-19 than other treatments. Long-term follow-up to screen for fibrosis will be the next challenge in the management of COVID-19.>>

EXH 2: >>Adjusting series of patients for trial comparisons for COVID –
19 treatments

Author list :
3Audrey GIRAUD -GATINEAU1,2,3,4 (PhD student); Jean Christophe LAGIER 1,4,5 (MD); 4 Yolande OBADIA 1
(MD); Hervé CHAUDET 1,2,3 (MD); Didier RAOULT 1,5* (MD)

Abstract:

Background
: SARS – COV-2 has emerged and spread around the world since December 2019. Studies initiated in Marseille by our hospital centre have suggested significant clinical effectiveness of treatment by combining hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin (HCQ+AZ). However, due to the
urgency of responding to the pandemic, they were not obtained through randomized controlled trials. Alternative assessment methods are therefore needed.

Methods:
We compared our data in silico with those published by two studies comparing 32 other antiviral drugs. For this purpose, random sampling was performed in our cohort to 33 obtain similar groups for disease severity, gender, age and comorbidities associated with 34 chronic diseases with patients included in the remdesivir and lopinavir-ritonavir trials.

Findings:
Dual HCQ+AZ therapy was associated with 3 times fewer deaths than
similar 37groups treated either with lopinavir-ritonavir(9% vs 20%, p-value = 0·03) or standard care 38 (8% vs 25·2%, p-value = 0·001). Compared with patients included in the remdesivir
study by 39 Wang et al., we also showed a significant difference in the clinical outcome (proportion of 40cured patients with negative viral load) in favour of HCQ+AZ (77.8% versus 58·2% p = 0·0001). 42 43

Interpretation:
Although comparison of HCQ+AZ with other antiviral drugs has limitations 44due to aggregated data, this study provides additional evidence showing that HCQ+AZ should 45 be the systematic treatment of choice after diagnosis of COVID -19 -positive cases. 46 47

Funding:
This work was supported by the French Government under the “Investments for theFuture” programme managed by the National Agency for Research (ANR), Méditerranée- Infection 10-
IAHU – 03 , and was also supported by Région Provence Alpes Côte d’Azur and European funding FEDER PRIMMI (Fonds Européen de Développement Régional -51 Plateformes de Recherche et d’Innovation Mutualisées Méditerranée Infection)>>

EXH 3: >>Assay
Randomised Controlled Trials during epidemic

Philippe Brouqui, Pierre Verger, Didier Raoult
Aix Marseille Université, IRD, MEPHI, VITROME,
ORS Paca, IHU-Méditerranée Infection, Marseille,
France

In epidemics there is an urgent need for new knowledge on drug efficacy to help policymakers fight the crisis. Yet the best research methodology to do this is a matter of de bate, write Philippe Brouqui, Pierre Verger and Didier Raoult .

The outbreak of an emerging infectious agent needs the rapid involvement of research to bring new knowledge. Past experience with Ebola virus outbreaks and, more recently SARS-CoV 2, have raised a question over the place of randomised controlled trials (RCTs) as the methodology of choice to
answer clinical questions in an novel epidemic situation. Drug safety and effectiveness is a long process which can take years. For antimicrobials, just 25% of drugs submitted to phase 1 succeed to Phase 3 and further licensing (1). This is why, in an epidemic, drug repurposing is often looked at, because drug toxicity has already been evaluated (2).

An RCT isdesigned to attempt to reduce bias, particularly in trials evaluating new drugs. The principle is to random assign volunteers into two or more treatment options and then compare them against a measured outcome. As RCTs reduce causality and spurious bias, they are considered to be the most reliable form of scientific evidence. For these reasons, they are required for market authorisation of a new pharmaceutical drug and cited by healthcare policies as a mandatory means for decision -making about treatments.

When gold standard becomes unethical

In emerging disease outbreaks, there is an urgent lack of treatments for the new pathogen. When a particular therapeutic option is supported by scientifically demonstrated efficacy in vitro and or in animal model, and supported further by clinical case reports and/or pilot series in humans, it is ethically difficult to argue that the data still needs to be confirmed in an RCT before it can be made available to patients. Especially if it seems “obvious” that control (untreated) subjects will have poorer outcomes than those receiving treatment. As one study mocked, there would be few volunteers for the placebo group in an RCT on the parachute’s effectiveness in avoiding death by jumping out of an airplane, unless the jump had an average height of 0.6 m (3).

When even imperfect scientific data show a particularly obvious effect, it is no longer ethical to perform an RCT since it forces patients to accept either not to be treated (in the control arm), or to be treated with a molecule known to be effective. Consider the advent of penicillin. It took five
patients before Sir Edward Abraham could definitively demonstrate that penicillin saved 100% of patients with staphylococcus or streptococcus infections. Nobody today would dare to test the efficacy of penicillin on pneumococcal pneumonia compared to placebo . . . >>

Food for thought, especially given the fiasco of the seemingly decisive Lancet paper which then had to be withdrawn. The remarks on the gold standard fallacies are particularly significant.

The underlying issue is that selective hyperskepticism is leading to ignoring of cumulatively adequate but somehow unwelcome findings, tracing to ethical weaknesses including the error of imagining skepticism an intellectual virtue and using it to substitute for prudence. We need to restore that due balance to our reasoning and decision-making.

A useful brief summary on prudence is:

Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; “the prudent man looks where he is going.”65 “Keep sane and sober for your prayers.”66 Prudence is “right reason in action,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle.67 It is not to be confused with timidity or fear, nor with duplicity or dissimulation. It is called auriga virtutum (the charioteer of the virtues); it guides the other virtues by setting rule and measure. It is prudence that immediately guides the judgment of conscience. The prudent man determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.

Further food for thought, on seven indicative, inescapable first duties of responsible reason: to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so to fairness and justice, etc. . END

Comments
Jerry: Never said that and never implied that. I just repeat Zelenko’s assessment which seems the most valid I have seen so far. If the person has the virus from a test, then only treat them is they are high risk. These are people who are over 60 and those under 60 who have a comorbidity. Or who look very sick. The last is an assessment by the doctor. Most will not have to be treated as they most likely will overcome it in a short time. However, if symptoms get worse come back for further evaluation. If symptoms get worse wouldn't that patient then be beyond the window you advocate? In other words: can you be really specific regarding when you would proscribe HCQ and when you wouldn't? Remembering that your view is that treatment must begin before the virus gets too big a hold. It does change in the sense that it multiplies in geometric proportions and first kills the original host cells by using all its resources and spreads and kills even more cells. It also prevents certain equilibrium functions from taking place as it interferes with the enzyme ACE2 which. then affects several other processes from happening. I am far from the one to explain this as I am not a medical person. Yes but there is a critical point which you need to provide observational criteria. This all may be too late if the virus is wide spread in the body and has caused other damage to things like the blood cell lining. Which is why using HCQ at later stages is not seen as appropriate. The so called viral load is to big and preventing the virus from getting to other cells may be too late. Though one study did show HCQ and zinc at late stages reducing the number who died and seriousness of the effects. Zinc should alway work as it kills the virus in the cell. How can you tell when someone is past that critical phase? The best place to go to see a description of what the virus does in later stages is MedCram. He now has over 80 lectures on it. Some of the explanation get very complicated and require some knowledge of biochemistry. He is actually learning as he goes as his explanations often reflect just published information. The question still remains: if you say HCQ must be administered before the virus gets too deep a hold then by what criteria do you decide to administer it? Just say8ing before symptoms get too bad isn't a clinical criteria. What symptoms are you talking about?JVL
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
If the researchers do not understand how HCQ is supposed to work, then they are missing the most important data when reporting its alleged ineffectiveness. And if they are missing that data, their studies aren't helpful. The point being that instead of just reporting that HCQ is ineffective, they could actually tell us why. That is how scientific adjustments are made.ET
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
02:59 PM
2
02
59
PM
PDT
Just to be clear: are you saying that anyone who shows any kind of symptoms should be treated with HCQ just in case?
Never said that and never implied that. I just repeat Zelenko's assessment which seems the most valid I have seen so far. If the person has the virus from a test, then only treat them is they are high risk. These are people who are over 60 and those under 60 who have a comorbidity. Or who look very sick. The last is an assessment by the doctor. Most will not have to be treated as they most likely will overcome it in a short time. However, if symptoms get worse come back for further evaluation. But do it as quickly as possible. You obviously have not watched any of the Zelenko videos or else you would know this. The vast majority will not need a treatment or the need to be tested. But probably should self isolate for a time period and report any exacerbation of symptoms.
Also, since the virus does not substantially change during a particular infection what is it, precisely, that you think HCQ is doing during the early stages of an infection that it cannot do during later stages?
It does change in the sense that it multiplies in geometric proportions and first kills the original host cells by using all its resources and spreads and kills even more cells. It also prevents certain equilibrium functions from taking place as it interferes with the enzyme ACE2 which. then affects several other processes from happening. I am far from the one to explain this as I am not a medical person. The purpose of HCQ is to prevent the virus from entering the cell and causing this cell damage. If it is already in the cell then to prevent it from spreading it to other cells. Hopefully the immune system will then defeat the virus. From what I have read zinc is the most important treatment but others could be better if found. The relevance of zinc is that zinc is thought to prevent the virus from replicating. And HCQ is used to get the zinc into the cell. Thus, HCQ may have multiple functions. Azithromycin while an anti biotic also may have some anti viral properties. If it does I have not seen how it does, just that it seems to help. This all may be too late if the virus is wide spread in the body and has caused other damage to things like the blood cell lining. Which is why using HCQ at later stages is not seen as appropriate. The so called viral load is to big and preventing the virus from getting to other cells may be too late. Though one study did show HCQ and zinc at late stages reducing the number who died and seriousness of the effects. Zinc should alway work as it kills the virus in the cell. Remdesivir is also though to affect the virus from replicating. There are several other treatments that show promise. Most to slow the virus down till the immune system can defeat it. The best place to go to see a description of what the virus does in later stages is MedCram. He now has over 80 lectures on it. Some of the explanation get very complicated and require some knowledge of biochemistry. He is actually learning as he goes as his explanations often reflect just published information. I am sure that others here may have a better understanding of what is happening. May main issue is the lack of honesty with those opposing the use of HCQ reflexively and especially with the opposition to zinc and HCQ. There seems a big set of non sequiturs in the comments. There also seems to be a host of possible ways to build the immune system and foods not to eat. The latest from MedCram is on the bad effects of high fructose foods on the ability of the body to fight the virus. Of course this is a long term preventive and not something that will change the person's system overnight. One last comment is that there seems to be a fixation on the number of cases when it may be necessary for most in every society to eventually get the virus. That is less important than treating those who get it and are at risk. That is where the deaths will mostly come from.jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
02:58 PM
2
02
58
PM
PDT
Jerry: HCQ was always about trying to control the virus before it got established and has little to do with fighting the effects of the virus as it attacks various cells, mostly those with ACE2 receptors in various parts of the body. Just to be clear: are you saying that anyone who shows any kind of symptoms should be treated with HCQ just in case? Because otherwise you miss the treatment window? Also, since the virus does not substantially change during a particular infection what is it, precisely, that you think HCΠis doing during the early stages of an infection that it cannot do during later stages?JVL
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
02:15 PM
2
02
15
PM
PDT
Arizona's case load and death toll from COVID-19 continues to rise. Figures posted Sunday by the State Department of Health show nearly 1,300 newly confirmed cases and 3 additional deaths. The department reports nearly 1,500 people were hospitalized for coronavirus as of Saturday, the 13th straight day with at least 1,000 hospitalizations related to the virus. Department officials say the state's hospitals are 84% full, above the elective surgery cutoff level. https://www.knau.org/post/az-covid-19-cases-hospitalizations-deaths-continue-riserhampton7
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
01:47 PM
1
01
47
PM
PDT
R esearchers urged a moratorium on the prescription of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine to treat or prevent COVID-19, except in the context of a randomized clinical trial or for compassionate use (Am J Med 2020 Jun 2. [Epub ahead of print]). Charles H. Hennekens, MD, DrPH, the first Sir Richard Doll Professor and senior academic advisory to the Dean of the Charles E. Schmidt Florida Atlantic University Schmidt College of Medicine, in Boca Raton, and the senior author of the commentary, talked with Marie Rosenthal, MS, managing editor of Infectious Disease Special Edition about why this is important. Dr. Hennekens has had a distinguished career in cardiology and epidemiology. Among his achievements: He was the first John Snow Professor at Harvard Medical School, and the first Eugene Braunwald Professor of Medicine and first chief of preventive medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital, in Boston. He reminds physicians that more information is needed before using this drug routinely on fragile patients. https://www.idse.net/Multimedia/Article/06-20/First-Do-No-Harm/58744rhampton7
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
01:39 PM
1
01
39
PM
PDT
A common genetic marker in African Americans may predispose them to cardiac complications from COVID-19, and the use of therapies such as hydroxychloroquine may increase the risk - investigators urge caution in the journal Heart Rhythm. The investigators note that the proarrhythmic potential associated with p.Ser1103Tyr-SCN5A can be enhanced by drugs that can cause irregular heartbeat (QTc-prolonging medications), including some antiarrhythmic drugs but also, importantly, some antibiotics and antifungal medications. Direct and/or indirect myocardial injury or stress has emerged as a prominent, prognostic feature in COVID-19. Acute myocardial injury in patients with COVID-19 may be caused by a direct SARS-CoV-2 myocardial infection; the exaggerated immune response known as the cytokine storm; or hypoxia, dangerously low levels of oxygen and high levels of carbon dioxide in the blood. African American infants with the p.Ser1103Tyr-SCN5A variant are over-represented in sudden infant death syndrome, and mechanisms underlying hypoxia may be responsible. The profound hypoxia observed in many COVID-19 patients, raises reasonable concern that p.Ser1103Tyr-SCN5A could produce a similar, African-American susceptibility to ventricular arrhythmia and sudden cardiac death from the SARS-CoV-2 infection. https://eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-06/e-uou061520.phprhampton7
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
01:38 PM
1
01
38
PM
PDT
US researchers have found more evidence that hydroxychloroquine – with or without azithromycin – does not reduce the risk of ventilation or death in COVID-19 patients. The researchers, from the Columbia VA Health Care System, the University of South Carolina, and the University of Virginia School of Medicine, also found the drug combination was associated with around a third longer hospital stay. This analysis, published in the journal Med, is the first in the US to report data on hydroxychloroquine outcomes for COVID-19 from a nationwide integrated health system. It included data from 807 people hospitalised with COVID-19 at Veterans Affairs medical centres around the United States, of whom 395 did not receive hydroxychloroquine at any time during their hospitalisation. https://ajp.com.au/news/more-evidence-against-hydroxychloroquine/rhampton7
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
Patients with systemic lupus erythematosus who received hydroxychloroquine were just as likely to develop severe COVID-19 as those who were not treated with antimalarials, according to data from the COVID-19 Global Rheumatology Alliance registry. To analyze antimalarials as prophylaxis for COVID-19, Konig and colleagues analyzed data from the COVID-19 Global Rheumatology Alliance physician-reported registry. Using the data available as of April 17, the researchers identified 80 patients with SLE and COVID-19. According to the researchers, treatment with antimalarials had no impact on whether patients with SLE required the maximum level of care related to COVID-19, including noninvasive and invasive ventilation or extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. The researchers also noted that, at the time of their analysis, 21.1% of the 573 total reported patients with rheumatic disease in the registry were treated with an antimalarial prior to COVID-19 onset. Despite this, 49.6% still required hospitalization. https://www.healio.com/news/rheumatology/20200612/hydroxychloroquine-fails-to-prevent-covid19-in-patients-with-lupusrhampton7
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PDT
Rhampton. as predicted will not read relevant information. See above. We get to his daily round of irrelevant information.jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
01:28 PM
1
01
28
PM
PDT
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration revoked its emergency authorization for hydroxychloroquine, a controversial malaria drug promoted by President Donald Trump for treating the coronavirus. The agency said in a letter the decision is based on new evidence that made it unreasonable to believe hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine "may be effective in diagnosing, treating or preventing" COVID-19, the illness caused by the virus. Citing reports of heart complications, the FDA said the drugs pose a greater risk to patients than any potential benefits. Shipments of the drugs obtained by the federal government from the National Stockpile will no longer be distributed to state and local health authorities https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/06/15/coronavirus-fda-pulls-emergency-use-hydroxychloroquine-covid/3191671001/rhampton7
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
01:27 PM
1
01
27
PM
PDT
The FDA announcement apparently only affects use in hospitals from the national stockpile. They will not provide the HCQ for this. It does not affect the prescription by individual doctors for early usage. But we will see how this is misinterpreted by those who seem to have an adverse attitude towards HCQ especially in medical communities who should know better. The ignorance of those who are supposedly knowledgeable about medicine on this is amazing. It cannot be ignorance but something else. It was pointed out to me earlier today that medical authorities do not agree with my assessment. But it is not my assessment they are disagreeing with but other medical communities. What we are seeing is unique in the history of medicine. The medical communities are actually duking it out in public.jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
01:05 PM
1
01
05
PM
PDT
Jerry, glad to see ivermectin producing confirmations to results from use by doctors. It seems to be able to push treatments further down the descending arm of the U-trajectory of CV19. The early use was with the cocktail. KF PS Zn in vivo seems able to interdict viral replication, especially if enabled to get into cells. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PDT
If you’re talking about zinc, Lowe discussed that several times. No effect.
Why don't you point out his evidence because everything we have seen here is that zinc has a positive effect, maybe a big one. I read one link to him put up here and he was all wrong on what he said. So maybe you could link to something he said that was correct. With zinc doubters here commenting, they have never once posted anything that contradicts its effectiveness.jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
12:18 PM
12
12
18
PM
PDT
A French newspaper assesses the Recovery study in the UK. It correctly analyzes the situation as far a virus progression. Something that is missing from our medical elites including all those designing studies. Could they be that dense or are the studies done this way on purpose? And then are their assessment made to fit a pre-designed narrative for unknown reasons? They seem to be in lockstep. https://bit.ly/30LoJPy
The UK Therapeutic Approach to COVID-19 is Flawed, Yet It Can Still be Rectified This article focuses on what is precisely wrong with the UK therapeutic strategy for COVID-19, which delivers high fatalities, continued propagation of the virus and little hope for the population. The required policy change is encapsulated in this proposed slogan modification for the National Health Service: Get Tested ASAP - Receive Early Treatment - Save your Life, to replace the well-known official slogan “Stay Home - Protect the NHS - Save Lives.”... It is now known for months that there are several phases in the COVID-19 disease, and that it is during the early viral phase, which typically lasts 5 to 7 days after the infection, that therapies are most effective. Early therapies, which typically combine hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin and / or zinc, are also known to reduce the chances of lasting organ damages or other undesirable effects. Despite what can be heard in most media, and despite the widespread confusion, there are therapies for COVID-19, and they have been well researched and implemented successfully in a number of jurisdictions.
jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
12:11 PM
12
12
11
PM
PDT
If you're talking about zinc, Lowe discussed that several times. No effect. Check out his blog In the Pipeline.Retired Physicist
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
12:06 PM
12
12
06
PM
PDT
I suggest all watch MedCram 83. It is about the issue of high fructose syrup in the susceptibility to the effects of the virus. There is the issue of 1) fighting the virus itself outside of one's immune system (that is trying to kill the virus before it does any harm) vs 2) fighting the effects of the virus after it gets established. These represent two different view points of what is happening. MedCram has spent several videos talking about how the virus eventually attacks the oxygen deliver system and blood clotting. These are later issues. with the virus as it attacks various cells and systems in the body. HCQ will have little use here. HCQ was always about trying to control the virus before it got established and has little to do with fighting the effects of the virus as it attacks various cells, mostly those with ACE2 receptors in various parts of the body. As an aside, Derek Lowe has been wrong about HCQ on just about everything. I am surprised anyone is paying attention to him. Any bets that RHampton will report that the FDA pulled the plug on HCQ today for unspecified reasons.jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
11:42 AM
11
11
42
AM
PDT
Some other good news that may not make RHampton's play list
The FDA-approved drug ivermectin inhibits the replication of SARS-CoV-2 in vitro Although several clinical trials are now underway to test possible therapies, the worldwide response to the COVID-19 outbreak has been largely limited to monitoring/containment. We report here that Ivermectin, an FDA-approved anti-parasitic previously shown to have broad-spectrum anti-viral activity in vitro, is an inhibitor of the causative virus (SARS-CoV-2), with a single addition to Vero-hSLAM cells 2 h post infection with SARS-CoV-2 able to effect ~5000-fold reduction in viral RNA at 48 h. Ivermectin therefore warrants further investigation for possible benefits in humans.
https://bit.ly/3d54A9M Also from the doctors in Dade County https://bit.ly/2Y172Ka
ICON (Ivermectin in COvid Nineteen) study: Use of Ivermectin is Associated with Lower Mortality in Hospitalized Patients with COVID19 Conclusions and Relevance: Ivermectin was associated with lower mortality during treatment of COVID-19, especially in patients who required higher inspired oxygen or ventilatory support. These findings should be further evaluated with randomized controlled trials.
This is on those hospitalized. Maybe it will work on those earlier in the infection progression.jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
11:34 AM
11
11
34
AM
PDT
ET, yes. And a key part of that has been dismissiveness to Dr Raoult, head of IHU Infections, Marseilles; on his coverage, you would be shocked to learn how eminent he is in his own right. His results are being sidelined and undermined through widespread fallacious appeal to a gold standard fallacy that fails ethical and epistemological tests. This tells us volumes about medical and scientific research, drugs testing, big pharma, the media, the state of medicine and government in our day. Notice, particularly the lack of solid engagement with the substance of the three papers above. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
11:21 AM
11
11
21
AM
PDT
I wonder if Derek Lowe understands how HCQ is alleged to work against covid-19. It has become readily apparent that most people, including medical professionals, do not. And THAT is the real shame.ET
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
11:01 AM
11
11
01
AM
PDT
Derek Lowe said he’s not even going to write any more about HCQ because the evidence is clear enough already. Focus should be on things with a chance of working. Looking back, I probably shouldn’t have smoked those three daily cigarettes for the last several decades. If I get this disease, and I live, I’ll probably have permanent lung damage.Retired Physicist
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PDT
What evidence do you have that doctors are doing nothing, and that this is the preferred approach?
First, please provide any evidence that there is a treatment to attack or prevent the virus from progressing other than hoping that the immune system will do it. Why don't you provide what Norway is doing. The article on France above specifically specifies there is no treatment in France. The recommended treatment by the French government is acetaminophen or what in the US most know as Tylenol.
At the time, the only therapeutic approach recommended by the French government, which in turn relied on WHO advice, consisted in taking paracetamol. Like elsewhere, this was not working, as it was just addressing the symptoms, not the cause of the disease.
There is no treatment in the United States. The FDA has ruled out any means of controlling the virus once infected. For example, from Harvard medical https://bit.ly/2UMkU8X
Most people who become ill with COVID-19 will be able to recover at home. No specific treatments for COVID-19 exist right now. But some of the same things you do to feel better if you have the flu — getting enough rest, staying well hydrated, and taking medications to relieve fever and aches and pains — also help with COVID-19.
So that is the WHO, France and the US. Probably others if I looked more. My guess is that you do not read anything provided because you would not be making the statements you do if you had read only part of the provided links. They at best demonstrate a lack of knowledge on what is happening.jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
07:47 AM
7
07
47
AM
PDT
BO'H, first that you imagine Dr Raoult is a dismissible "all" itself reflects the problem I am highlighting. That you ask it also indicates that you simply have not paid attention to the range of evidence on the table over the past few months. That severely degrades the credibility of your own remarks. KF PS: As just one point, I again put in this thread the Kennedy School of Government paper already repeatedly linked and just as repeatedly side stepped, as the ethical-epistemological issue is central:
I remind, from No 55 in the Dr Lozano thread. This is Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, with a professor and with a French doctoral graduate:
Observe:
Unleash the Data on COVID-19 By Maryaline Catillon and Richard Zeckhauser* Given the lethality of the COVID-19 pandemic, the urgent need is for actionable information directing care towards treatments offering higher probabilities of improving outcomes and preventing death. In normal times, randomized control trials (RCTs) would be the gold standard for determining whether innovative medical treatments are safe and effective. But with 1,500 Americans dying every day, these are hardly normal times. There is an urgent need for high quality studies based on real world experience, which has already accumulated for many thousands of patients. Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation’s pandemic physician in chief, said that RCT results will not be available "for months". The disease will not wait. RCTs, which randomly assign patients to a treatment or a control group, are only ethically acceptable when the safety and performance of a treatment is unknown. When ample data exists, as now, that criterion is not met. Analyzing real world data on actual outcomes, when it exists in abundance, offers an alternative approach to learn almost immediately. Moreover, it avoids the ethical challenge of an RCT, given that available data could predict outcomes. Massive numbers of COVID-19 patients are currently being administered "unproven" drugs based on medical decisions made by doctors. Massive numbers are not receiving any such drugs. Thus, carefully designed case control studies could leverage differences between ongoing protocols at large hospital systems and detailed information from patients’ electronic medical records. That could determine whether widely employed hydroxychloroquine, with or without azithromycin, provides significant benefits, and at which stages to which patients, and could provide similar information on the risks it imposes. It could yield the same information about remdesivir, and about many other drug treatments currently in use. [--> sounds familiar? That's been a line of argument I have pointed to for weeks] For each patient, doctors strive to optimize treatment in the current, uncertain environment. These drug versus non-drug decisions constitute an ongoing large observational study, in which the allocation to treatment and control groups varies widely. The large numbers of patients treated eliminates concerns that random variation might lead to misleading results. Those large numbers also yield results by demographic, comorbidities, and stage of disease. Leveraging real world evidence is more acceptable ethically when extensive information is already available. As decision theorists who have studied the methodological quality of vast numbers of RCTs, we are enthusiasts for well-conducted RCTs. But delaying public health recommendations till RCTs are completed is not appropriate in the present circumstance. Imminent threats are enormous and widespread data is easily at hand. The outcomes of the thousands of individuals who have already received drug therapies on an ad hoc basis should inform practice now . . . . High quality case control studies based on thousands of cases, the silver standard we recommend, are immensely faster than RCTs. Recent articles in the world’s leading medical journals show that they consistently yield the same major findings. Experience with the recommendations of antiretroviral therapy (ART) for HIV provides an instructive warning. Even though 20 years of observational studies demonstrated its enormous benefits, the World Health Organization waited until 2015 and the publication of the first set of RCT results (which reached the same conclusions) to make a "treat all" recommendation. Many lives were lost as the world waited for its recommendation. COVID-19 presents its own example. Through late March, medical authorities recommended the general public not employ masks to protect against it. In early April, that all switched: masks became strongly recommended. No RCT supported this reversal; little evidence was mounted. Yet officials applauded, the public widely complied, and the world was better off.
Well conducted includes ethical criteria. Of course. But such is obviously at a discount today. And notice the by now familiar context: decision theory.
If the onlooker is puzzled as to why the evidence pointing to the validity of the design inference is so routinely dismissed or ignored, let this case be an indicator as to what is happening on ever so many issues. Remember, this is in the face of a global pandemic that has not only done health damage but has led to policy responses that have done huge economic and social damage.kairosfocus
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
06:09 AM
6
06
09
AM
PDT
Earth to Bob O'H - it appears that the people railing against HCQ do NOT understand how it is supposed to work. If they did we would be reading about patients' pH values, before and during treatment. Your "medical community" doesn't appear to know what it is doing.ET
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
06:05 AM
6
06
05
AM
PDT
Jerry @ 57 -
There is plenty of evidence that no treatment, the preferred approach, leads to large numbers dying.
What evidence do you have that doctors are doing nothing, and that this is the preferred approach?Bob O'H
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
06:01 AM
6
06
01
AM
PDT
kf - Ah, so all you've got is Raoult. Low quality. Without a control group to compare to, these studies are worthless because you can't compare HCQ to what would have happened without HCQ. The only study with a control group had a tiny sample size, and HCQ actually preformed worse clinically. Raoult's attempt to match his patients to those in other studies (your EXH 2) compares patients in France from march 3rd with those in China in January 18th -March 12th. So, differences could be because care has improved as doctors have learned about the virus, or because IHE gives better care than the Chinese hospitals. So if that (plus an early Chinese trial) is all, the evidence isn't accumulating very rapidly.Bob O'H
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
05:56 AM
5
05
56
AM
PDT
As an example of cherry picking medical opinion, I will do so. AAPS Sues FDA (Association of American Physicians and Surgeons) https://bit.ly/37tx4c8
Following the lead of the Food and Drug Administration’s Emergency Use Authorization (EUA), which prohibits use of HCQ being stored in the Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) outside of hospitals, most states have placed unprecedented restrictions on physicians’ ability to prescribe HCQ “off-label” for COVID-19 (tinyurl.com/y7oc65gn). In its lawsuit (http://aapsonline.org/hcqsuit), filed in June in federal court in the Western District of Michigan, AAPS asks the court to enjoin the enforcement of the restrictions in the Mar 28 EUA; to make available and distribute promptly, for the benefit of the public, HCQ from the SNS; and to enjoin FDA, the Biomedical Advance Research & Development Authority (BARDA), and HHS from impeding the distribution, sale, or purchase of HCQ by members of the public during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Above I pointed to another story on French physicians and India's medical community. I can cherry pick probably another 30-40 stories from various medical communities to suggest HCQ should be used early. But there are definitely other treatments that show good results too and should be used as opposed to no treatment, which is the current protocol. This is an old survey of doctors (two months ago) that said HCQ was the preferred drug of choice in the world. https://bit.ly/3e4AxQV Since that time we had nothing but bogus studies. So why should they change their opinion except by intimidation which is going on by some national organizations. So I guess I am not aware of any valid opinion from any medical community that says the use of HCQ on appropriate populations does not have a positive effect. I personally believe the best evidence to date is to use zinc with HCQ. The treatment cost is 47 cents a day.jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
05:26 AM
5
05
26
AM
PDT
I guess you’re aware that the medical community disagrees with you.
What medical community? It’s always possible to find some people to express opinions. Why did they use bogus studies as evidence? If someone makes an argument for something and uses inappropriate evidence that usually implies the opposite. There is plenty of evidence that no treatment, the preferred approach, leads to large numbers dying. There are numerous reports that other treatments are leading to good results when used appropriately. There are individual doctors, there are several countries reporting good results for early usage. So we have bogus information vs other information reporting good results.jerry
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
04:48 AM
4
04
48
AM
PDT
BO'H: that you are unaware of it speaks volumes. For one, kindly scroll up to the OP. KF PS: Given what is emerging about the medical community, it seems the real issue is a need to revisit epistemology and ethics, with Dr Raoult's counsel a relevant point of reference.kairosfocus
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
04:32 AM
4
04
32
AM
PDT
kf - again, what cumulative evidence? Jerry - I guess you're aware that the medical community disagrees with you. But even if you're right, perhaps you should present us with the evidence of equivalent quality that is appropriate.Bob O'H
June 15, 2020
June
06
Jun
15
15
2020
04:13 AM
4
04
13
AM
PDT
1 18 19 20 21 22

Leave a Reply