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Dr Thomas Frieden, formerly Director of the US CDC, 2017 in NEJM, on the need to go beyond placebo-controlled studies as “gold standard”

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One of the key steps in dismissing evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine-based cocktails in treating early stageCovid-19 for patients in vulnerable groups on an outpatient basis is the use of the premise that such evidence is of low quality as it does not match the “gold standard” of placebo-controlled, randomised tests (often. RCT’s). However, observations are observations, natural regularities are often observable from the first few trials, evidence is evidence, ethical and practical considerations are real, and valid scientific methods do not reduce to applied statistics.

It is in that context that we should attend carefully to remarks by Dr Thomas Frieden, writing in NEJM 3 1/2 years ago, in terms that uncannily anticipate our current woes:

Despite their strengths, RCTs have substantial limitations. Although they can have strong internal validity, RCTs sometimes lack external validity; generalizations of findings outside the study population may be invalid.2,4,6 RCTs usually do not have sufficient study periods or population sizes to assess duration of treatment effect (e.g., waning immunity of vaccines) or to identify rare but serious adverse effects of treatment, which often become evident during postmarketing surveillance and long-term follow-up but could not be practically assessed in an RCT. The increasingly high costs and time constraints of RCTs can also lead to reliance on surrogate markers that may not correlate well with the outcome of interest. Selection of high-risk groups increases the likelihood of having adequate numbers of end points, but these groups may not be relevant to the broader target populations. These limitations and the fact that RCTs often take years to plan, implement, and analyze reduce the ability of RCTs to keep pace with clinical innovations; new products and standards of care are often developed before earlier models complete evaluation. These limitations also affect the use of RCTs for urgent health issues, such as infectious disease outbreaks, for which public health decisions must be made quickly on the basis of limited and often imperfect available data. RCTs are also limited in their ability to assess the individualized effect of treatment, as can result from differences in surgical techniques, and are generally impractical for rare diseases.

Many other data sources can provide valid evidence for clinical and public health action. Observational studies, including assessments of results from the implementation of new programs and policies, remain the foremost source, but other examples include analysis of aggregate clinical or epidemiologic data . . .

He also presents a table of options with strengths and weaknesses, which we now sample:

Dr Thomas Friedman on strengths and limitations of Placebo controlled testing

Later in the same article, as he concludes, he also notes:

There is no single, best approach to the study of health interventions; clinical and public health decisions are almost always made with imperfect data (Table 1). Promoting transparency in study methods, ensuring standardized data collection for key outcomes, and using new approaches to improve data synthesis are critical steps in the interpretation of findings and in the identification of data for action, and it must be recognized that conclusions may change over time. There will always be an argument for more research and for better data, but waiting for more data is often an implicit decision not to act or to act on the basis of past practice rather than best available evidence. The goal must be actionable data — data that are sufficient for clinical and public health action that have been derived openly and objectively and that enable us to say, “Here’s what we recommend and why.”

In that context, it is appropriate for me to again highlight a diagram on sustainability oriented decision making, adapted from the Bariloche Foundation of Argentina:

Where, BAU is in fact a natural baseline of reference. We seek a more satisfactory alternative, ALT. It must be credible enough incrementally to justify onward exploration and that first requires becoming a candidate for more costly investigation that shifts epistemic probabilities. Where, of arguments by/among clever people there is no end, so empirical demonstration at various levels is pivotal.

Here, epistemology of empirically based knowledge does not allow for gold standards that impose selective hyperskepticism against otherwise reasonable evidence. Evidence is evidence (and various uncertainties, risks and potential for errors cannot be wholly eliminated). So, we must recognise that BAU is a baseline/ benchmark/ control, and there is no strict necessity to construct an artificial, no effective treatment baseline; call it 0TB.

After all, the point is really to improve outcomes from BAU, and gap analysis ALT vs BAU has no inherent reference to 0TB. Algebraically, on credible or observed outcomes, we see this from

(ALT – 0TB) – (BAU – 0TB) = ALT – BAU

Where, with people as test subjects, if 0TB is based on deception — e.g. sugar pills deliberately mislabelled and presented under false colours and ceremonies of medicine and research in the face of significant risk of harm to vulnerable patients — and has potential for significant harm, it becomes ethically questionable. We know of extreme cases of concentration camp experimentation, the Tuskegee syphilis atrocity and more. However in more recent times, people have been subjected to fake surgeries under general anesthesia etc. The placebo effect has covered a multitude of sins.

In the face of pandemic, urgency is another issue. What yields results in a timeframe relevant to taming the surge of cases becomes a highly relevant criterion. As does the tradeoff of lives lost under various treatment, public health [e.g. quarantines vs general lockdown] and policy options. Where, relevantly, economic dislocation carries a toll in health and lives too. (It is suggested by some that deaths of despair and from postponed medical procedures may/do exceed those attributed to the epidemic.) This means BTW that the dismal science, Economics, has a seat at the decision makers’ table as of right.

It is time for mindset change. END

PS/UD Aug 15: I have found at Bit Chute, a July 28 Frontline Doctors seminar which describes several mechanisms of action. Accordingly, I take liberty to annotate a screenshot, summarising several mechanisms of action described by these Doctors [cf. here for their references], but which are hard to find because of now almost pervasive censorship:

I note, this first answers a puzzle on the mode of action, shape-shift of ACE2: the shift is INTERNAL to the cell by hindering “glycation” of the final AA (thus prior to exposure to buffering of blood etc), altering the shape enough to hamper S-protein reception. This reduces fusion with bilipid layer and RNA injection.

Other direct mechanisms as noted, reduce intracellular acidity thus action of organelles. They highlight stalling of assembly of new viri in the Golgi bodies, with implication of blocking export of fresh viri, thus hampering the multiplication chain. The by now well known indirect activity is that as a lipophilic molecule, HCQ enters the cell bilipid layer membrane, acting as a Zn ionophore, i.e. it “shoots” Zn into the cell. Zn in turn hinders a key viral enzyme, RdRP.

Thus, we see a plausible picture of causal action, involving multiple, synergistic effects. This lends credibility to the use of HCQ-based cosctails in treating the early viral phases of CV19.

PPS: Given tendencies to be dismissive, I here reproduce two key illustrations/charts from Dr Raoult’s work on now over 3,000 patients at IHU in Marseilles France.

First, his statistical summary on difference made with vulnerable groups through HCQ-Azithromycin treatment, by May:

We note that expected death rates for vulnerable groups are as high as 15%.

Next, here is a chart from his early, about 80 patient stage, illustrating rapid reduction of viral load . . . for which we now have specific, scientifically plausible causal mechanisms on the table:

I add, just for stirring the pot, a Frontline Doctors chart on CV19 case fatality rates vs accessibility of HCQ:

Thus, we see good reason to accept that HCQ-based cocktails (which were available from the outset of the pandemic) are credibly effective and should not have been treated with the extreme skepticism, hostility and suppression we have instead seen. Note, the leader of the Frontline Doctors, Dr Simone Gold, was fired immediately on leading a public protest. Frankly, that smacks of whistleblower retaliation.

It is appropriate to raise pointed questions, through the voice of the doctors writing an open letter to Dr Fauci:

>>There is currently no recommended pharmacologic early outpatient treatment for individuals in the flu stage of the illness, correct?
It is true that COVID-19 is much more lethal than the flu for high-risk individuals such as older patients and those with significant comorbidities, correct?
Individuals with signs of early COVID-19 infection typically have a runny nose, fever, cough, shortness of breath, loss of smell, etc., and physicians send them home to rest, eat chicken soup etc., but offer no specific, targeted medications, correct?
These high-risk individuals are at high risk of death, on the order of 15% or higher, correct?
So just so we are clear—the current standard of care now is to send clinically stable symptomatic patients home, “with a wait and see” approach?
Are you aware that physicians are successfully using Hydroxychloroquine combined with Zinc and Azithromycin as a “cocktail” for early outpatient treatment of symptomatic, high-risk, individuals?
Have you heard of the “Zelenko Protocol,” for treating high-risk patients with COVID 19 as an outpatient?
Have you read Dr. Risch’s article in the American Journal of Epidemiology of the early outpatient treatment of COVID-19?
Are you aware that physicians using the medication combination or “cocktail” recommend use within the first 5 to 7 days of the onset of symptoms, before the illness impacts the lungs, or cytokine storm evolves?
Again, to be clear, your recommendation is no pharmacologic treatment as an outpatient for the flu—like symptoms in patients that are stable, regardless of their risk factors, correct?
Would you advocate for early pharmacologic outpatient treatment of symptomatic COVID-19 patients if you were confident that it was beneficial?
Are you aware that there are hundreds of physicians in the United States and thousands across the globe who have had dramatic success treating high-risk individuals as outpatients with this “cocktail?”
Are you aware that there are at least 10 studies demonstrating the efficacy of early outpatient treatment with the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail for high-risk patients — so this is beyond anecdotal, correct?
If one of your loved ones had diabetes or asthma, or any potentially complicating comorbidity, and tested positive for COVID-19, would you recommend “wait and see how they do” and go to the hospital if symptoms progress?
Even with multiple studies documenting remarkable outpatient efficacy and safety of the Hydroxychloroquine “cocktail,” you believe the risks of the medication combination outweigh the benefits?
Is it true that with regard to Hydroxychloroquine and treatment of COVID-19 infection, you have said repeatedly that “The Overwhelming Evidence of Properly Conducted Randomized Clinical Trials Indicate No Therapeutic Efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ)?”
But NONE of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done in the first 5 to 7 days after the onset of symptoms- correct?
All of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done on hospitalized patients, correct?
Hospitalized patients are typically sicker that outpatients, correct?
None of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer used the full cocktail consisting of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin, correct?

While the University of Minnesota study is referred to as disproving the cocktail, the meds were not given within the first 5 to 7 days of illness, the test group was not high risk (death rates were 3%), and no zinc was given, correct?
Again, for clarity, the trials upon which you base your opinion regarding the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine, assessed neither the full cocktail (to include Zinc + Azithromycin or doxycycline) nor administered treatment within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, nor focused on the high-risk group, correct?
Therefore, you have no basis to conclude that the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail when used early in the outpatient setting, within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, in high risk patients, is not effective, correct?
It is thus false and misleading to say that the effective and safe use of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin has been “debunked,” correct? How could it be “debunked” if there is not a single study that contradicts its use?

Should it not be an absolute priority for the NIH and CDC to look at ways to treat Americans with symptomatic COVID-19 infections early to prevent disease progression?
The SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 virus is an RNA virus. It is well-established that Zinc interferes with RNA viral replication, correct?
Moreover, is it not true that hydroxychloroquine facilitates the entry of zinc into the cell, is a “ionophore,” correct?
Isn’t also it true that Azithromycin has established anti-viral properties?
Are you aware of the paper from Baylor by Dr. McCullough et. al. describing established mechanisms by which the components of the “HCQ cocktail” exert anti-viral effects?

So- the use of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin (or doxycycline) and zinc, the “HCQ cocktail,” is based on science, correct?>>

Comments
KF, OT, but there apparently has been some exciting progress on Erdős' most famous conjecture.daveS
August 16, 2020
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kindly notice the new information on the table regarding mechanisms. It seems the ACE2 shape shifts are in the assembly stage prior to going to the membrane.
I've previously have mentioned the proposed mechanism of inhibition of terminal glycosylation of the ACE receptor several times. I can only assume from your comment that you missed it each of those times. The question is what is the rate of turnover of the ACE receptor? If it is slow (likely) than, obviously, this proposed mechanisms does not have any impact on the very large number of ACE receptors already present on the cell surface which are not modified and open to viral binding and subsequent transport into the cell. In other words this is likely a mechanism of HCQ activity but inadequate to affect viral entry into the cell given it does not affect ACE receptors already present on the cell surface. We also have ET's citation which mentions the very slow onset of action for HCQ, via endoscope/lysosome pH modification, as well as citations documenting how de-acidification of these vesicles can have a positive impact on RNA virus replication, i.e., it increases the viral replication.RHolt
August 16, 2020
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kf @ 56 -
Jerry, yup. High risk patients do mostly recover but up to 15% die. That is sharply reduced through the Zelenko etc protocols.
And for Zelenko specifically, your evidence that it is the Zelenko protocol that is responsible for any differences is what? Please be specific, and give the evidence, i.e. a comparison to an equivalent control group, where any differences in major confounders are identified and controlled for.Bob O'H
August 16, 2020
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JB, First runner up: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26769034/ >> Randomized Controlled Trial Eur Spine J . 2016 May;25(5):1349-1354. doi: 10.1007/s00586-016-4381-z. Epub 2016 Jan 14. Does usage of a parachute in contrast to free fall prevent major trauma?: a prospective randomised-controlled trial in rag dolls Patrick Czorlich 1 , Till Burkhardt 1 , Jan Hendrik Buhk 2 , Jakob Matschke 3 , Marc Dreimann 4 , Nils Ole Schmidt 1 , Sven Oliver Eicker 5 Affiliations PMID: 26769034 DOI: 10.1007/s00586-016-4381-z Abstract Purpose: It is undisputed for more than 200 years that the use of a parachute prevents major trauma when falling from a great height. Nevertheless up to date no prospective randomised controlled trial has proven the superiority in preventing trauma when falling from a great height instead of a free fall. The aim of this prospective randomised controlled trial was to prove the effectiveness of a parachute when falling from great height. Methods: In this prospective randomised-controlled trial a commercially acquirable rag doll was prepared for the purposes of the study design as in accordance to the Declaration of Helsinki, the participation of human beings in this trial was impossible. Twenty-five falls were performed with a parachute compatible to the height and weight of the doll. In the control group, another 25 falls were realised without a parachute. The main outcome measures were the rate of head injury; cervical, thoracic, lumbar, and pelvic fractures; and pneumothoraxes, hepatic, spleen, and bladder injuries in the control and parachute groups. An interdisciplinary team consisting of a specialised trauma surgeon, two neurosurgeons, and a coroner examined the rag doll for injuries. Additionally, whole-body computed tomography scans were performed to identify the injuries. Results: All 50 falls-25 with the use of a parachute, 25 without a parachute-were successfully performed. Head injuries (right hemisphere p = 0.008, left hemisphere p = 0.004), cervical trauma (p < 0.001), thoracic trauma (p < 0.001), lumbar trauma (p < 0.001), pelvic trauma (p < 0.001), and hepatic, spleen, and bladder injures (p GT 0.001) occurred more often in the control group. Only the pneumothoraxes showed no statistically significant difference between the control and parachute groups. Conclusions: A parachute is an effective tool to prevent major trauma when falling from a great height. Keywords: Evidence-based medicine; Fall; Parachute; Prevention; Trauma. Silver medal. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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JB, money shot clip:
Conclusions: As with many interventions intended to prevent ill health, the effectiveness of parachutes has not been subjected to rigorous evaluation by using randomised controlled trials. Advocates of evidence based medicine have criticised the adoption of interventions evaluated by using only observational data. We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute.
KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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The gold standard of disagreement with holding up RCTs as the absolute standard is this famous parody paper that was published by the British Medical Journal titled "Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials". https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14684649/ I used to work in Evidence-based Medicine a little bit, and saw both sides of the fence. In any case, it is definitely true that medicine is a practical discipline that has to work prior to having all the facts you might want.johnnyb
August 16, 2020
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Jerry @ 53 -
When one has nearly 100% success with a large number of the population that is high risk it eliminates the possibility that all would have recovered naturally.
I'm not sure what you were trying to say, but not what you actually said.
Why his high risk population? This has been pointed out about a hundred times. Something called statistics is used to Verify this.
To verify what?Bob O'H
August 16, 2020
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Jerry, yup. High risk patients do mostly recover but up to 15% die. That is sharply reduced through the Zelenko etc protocols. Sufficiently so that we are in the h'mm, clearly stones drop when released territory. See the summary on mechanisms, which clears up a puzzle on ACE2 shape shifting and gives us cell biology reasons to be confident in the cocktail. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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RHolt, kindly notice the new information on the table regarding mechanisms. It seems the ACE2 shape shifts are in the assembly stage prior to going to the membrane. In addition, several mechanisms are on the table going forward, as summarised. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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F/N: I have found a Frontline Doctors seminar at BitChute (that's a testimony to censorship . . .), and have updated the OP to include a summary of direct and indirect/synergistic activity of HCQ. Links are there. The causal mechanisms tied to common natural regularities and the known key-lock patterns of cell activity lend credibility to the observed rapid effectiveness of HCQ which has been observed in thousands of cases as reported. The overall effect of the annotated chart is that we now have a framework for discussing mechanisms in fair detail, which in turn shifts the context of our plausibility structures, a key element in scientific thought. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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We also have extremely high success with patients that are not treated with HCQ, because most patients recover anyway. I’m surprised you weren’t aware of this already.
You obviously never watched or read Zelenko. He constantly discusses this. When one has nearly 100% success with a large number of the population that is high risk it eliminates the possibility that all would have recovered naturally. Why his high risk population? This has been pointed out about a hundred times. Something called statistics is used to Verify this. As I said it was pointed out to you 4 months ago.jerry
August 16, 2020
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F/N: The Frontline Doctors in seminar https://www.bitchute.com/video/g6CYOg0lojcK/ KF PS: White Papers https://americasfrontlinedoctorsummit.com/references/kairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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BO'H: again, you are setting aside evidence to speculate on marginal issues to cast a pall on something that is not too hard to see. At this stage, it is fairly obvious that the issues raised by Dr Frieden nearly four years ago and by others since simply have not registered. Meanwhile, if one takes up a pebble and drops it, it reliably falls. Beyond a certain point, issues of accidents/coincidence, possible interfering factors etc fade out and we begin to recognise that we face a reliable natural regularity. That is the level of the underlying problem: basic inductive reasoning is being unduly frustrated. And BTW, this is -- unsurprisingly -- the same challenge that is shown by common linguistic and technology patterns so that when we see say alphanumeric, string data structure algorithmic codes with molecular nanotech execution machinery, there is a strong, ideological polarisation backed refusal to acknowledge that there is a highly consistent cause of language, algorithms and execution machinery, intelligent design. The implication is, until the ideology is decisively broken, there will never be an acknowledgement of the balance of the matter. In the case at focus for this thread, the sort of evidence that -- as Dr Frieden noted and many doctors from Raoult and Zelenko to Lozano and Simone Gold et al point out (sometimes, in the face of censorship, slander and dismissal) -- reasonably can be expected under prevailing circumstances will be rejected on one excuse or another. Where, specifically, you have just brushed off a sharp and highly obvious change in death rates of vulnerable groups once early treatment has been given, a death rate which has been up to 15%, about one in 6 patients. Which is what business as usual has been facing. Where, let's bring it down to algebra as the OP summarises: (ALT – 0TB) – (BAU – 0TB) = ALT – BAU The no effective treatment baseline does not make a material difference to identifying a credible change in outcome on shifting to a reasonable alternative. Your underlying reasoning seems rather similar to insisting on buying vehicles from a source with a high incidence of lemons because those who have bought the alternative just possibly might -- absent duly complex, expensive and time consuming studies -- be the result of coincidence or potential interfering factors. So, your "surprise" is about as rhetorical as Hume's was when he set out to create a mystery on where moral government arises, shunting aside the obvious to obfuscate the self-evident. Just as, we see massive selective hyperskepticism with the design inference in cases where by the very nature of the past we cannot see the remote past of origins. Duly noted. KF PS: Some further questions from the open letter to Dr Fauci, seem appropriate:
Is it not misleading for you to repeatedly state to the American public that randomized clinical trials are the sole source of information to confirm the efficacy of a treatment? Was it not misinformation when on CNN you cited the Lancet study based on false data from Surgisphere as evidence of the lack of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine? Is it not misinformation as is repeated in the MSM as a result of your comments that a randomized clinical trial is required by the FDA for a drug approval? Don’t you realize how much damage this falsehood perpetuates? How is it not misinformation for you and the FDA to keep telling the American public that hydroxychloroquine is dangerous when you know that there is nothing more than anecdotal evidence of that?
PPS: Some of the earlier questions need to be faced again:
While some doctors may not want to use the drug, should not doctors who believe that it is indicated be able to offer it to their patients? Are you aware that doctors who are publicly advocating for such a strategy with the early use of the HCQ cocktail are being silenced with removal of content on the internet and even censorship in the medical community? You are aware of the 20 or so physicians who came to the Supreme Court steps advocating for the early use of the hydroxychloroquine cocktail. In fact, you said these were “a bunch of people spouting out something that isn’t true.” Dr. Fauci, these are not just “people,” these are doctors who actually treat patients, unlike you, correct? Do you know that the video they made went viral with 17 million views in just a few hours, and was then removed from the internet? Are you aware that their website, American Frontline Doctors, was taken down the next day? Did you see the way that Nigerian [--> I think, actually Cameroun] immigrant physician, Dr. Stella Immanuel, was mocked in the media for her religious views and called a “witch doctor?” [--> incubus/ succubus is a notoriously longstanding, global phenomenon; describing it in colourful terms commonly used in W Africa is not relevant to observable result of treating 350+ patients, to me it seems that incubus/succubus is now driving entire billion dollar industries, national policy and a consequent policy that has destroyed 800+ million unborn over the past 40+ years . . . maybe we need to read the White Rose Martyrs pamphlet IV again] Are you aware that Dr. Simone Gold, the leader of the group, was fired from her job as an Emergency Room physician the following day? Are you aware that physicians advocating for this treatment that has by now probably saved millions of lives around the globe are harassed by local health departments, state agencies and medical boards, and even at their own hospitals? Are you aware of that? Don’t you think doctors should have the right to speak out on behalf of their patients without the threat of retribution? Are you aware that videos and other educational information are removed off the internet and labeled, in the words of Mark Zuckerberg, as “misinformation?” Is it not misinformation to characterize hydroxychloroquine, in the doses used for early outpatient treatment of COVID-19 infections, as a dangerous drug? Is it not misleading for you to repeatedly state to the American public that randomized clinical trials are the sole source of information to confirm the efficacy of a treatment? Was it not misinformation when on CNN you cited the Lancet study based on false data from Surgisphere as evidence of the lack of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine? Is it not misinformation as is repeated in the MSM as a result of your comments that a randomized clinical trial is required by the FDA for a drug approval? Don’t you realize how much damage this falsehood perpetuates?
Also:
In regards to the use of hydroxychloroquine, you have repeatedly made the same statement: “The Overwhelming Evidence from Properly Conducted Randomized Clinical Trials Indicate no Therapeutic Efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine.” Is that correct? In Dr. Risch’s article regarding the early use of hydroxychloroquine, he disputes your opinion. He scientifically evaluated the data from the studies to support his opinions. Have you published any articles to support your opinions? You repeatedly state that randomized clinical trials are needed to make conclusions regarding treatments, correct? The FDA has approved many medications (especially in the area of cancer treatment) without randomized clinical trials, correct? Are you aware that Dr. Thomas Frieden, the previous head of the CDC wrote an article in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2017 called “Evidence for Health Decision Making — Beyond Randomized Clinical Trials (RCT)?” Have you read that article? In it Dr. Frieden states that “many data sources can provide valid evidence for clinical and public health action, including analysis of aggregate clinical or epidemiological data.” Do you disagree with that? Frieden discusses “practiced-based evidence” as being essential in many discoveries, such SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome). Do you disagree with that? Frieden writes the following: “Current evidence-grading systems are biased toward randomized clinical trials, which may lead to inadequate consideration of non-RCT data.” Dr. Fauci, have you considered all the non-RCT data in coming to your opinions? Risch, who is a leading world authority in the analysis of aggregate clinical data, has done a rigorous analysis that he published regarding the early treatment of COVID-19 with hydroxychloroquine, zinc, and azithromycin. He cites five or six studies, and in an updated article there are five or six more, a total of 10 to 12 clinical studies with formally collected data specifically regarding the early treatment of COVID. Have you analyzed the aggregate data regarding early treatment of high-risk patients with hydroxychloroquine, zinc, and azithromycin? Is there any document that you can produce for the American people of your analysis of the aggregate data that would rebut Dr. Risch’s analysis? Yet, despite what Dr. Risch believes is overwhelming evidence in support of the early use of hydroxychloroquine, you dismiss the treatment insisting on randomized controlled trials even in the midst of a pandemic? Would you want a loved one with high-risk comorbidities placed in the control group of a randomized clinical trial when a number of studies demonstrate safety and dramatic efficacy of the early use of the hydroxychloroquine “cocktail?” Are you aware that the FDA approved a number of cancer chemotherapy drugs without randomized control trials based solely on epidemiological evidence? The trials came later as confirmation. Are you aware of that? You are well aware that there were no randomized clinical trials in the case of penicillin that saved thousands of lives in World War II? Was not this in the best interest of our soldiers? You would agree that many lives were saved with the use of cancer drugs and penicillin that were used before any randomized clinical trials, correct? You have referred to evidence for hydroxychloroquine as “anecdotal,” which is defined as “evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony,” correct? But there are many studies supporting the use of hydroxychloroquine in which evidence was collected formally and not on personal testimony, has there not been? So, it would be false to conclude that the evidence supporting the early use of hydroxychloroquine is anecdotal, correct?
with:
There is currently no recommended pharmacologic early outpatient treatment for individuals in the flu stage of the illness, correct? It is true that COVID-19 is much more lethal than the flu for high-risk individuals such as older patients and those with significant comorbidities, correct? Individuals with signs of early COVID-19 infection typically have a runny nose, fever, cough, shortness of breath, loss of smell, etc., and physicians send them home to rest, eat chicken soup etc., but offer no specific, targeted medications, correct? These high-risk individuals are at high risk of death, on the order of 15% or higher, correct? So just so we are clear—the current standard of care now is to send clinically stable symptomatic patients home, “with a wait and see” approach? Are you aware that physicians are successfully using Hydroxychloroquine combined with Zinc and Azithromycin as a “cocktail” for early outpatient treatment of symptomatic, high-risk, individuals? Have you heard of the “Zelenko Protocol,” for treating high-risk patients with COVID 19 as an outpatient? Have you read Dr. Risch’s article in the American Journal of Epidemiology of the early outpatient treatment of COVID-19? Are you aware that physicians using the medication combination or “cocktail” recommend use within the first 5 to 7 days of the onset of symptoms, before the illness impacts the lungs, or cytokine storm evolves? [--> see the chart of CV19 disease phases in the OP; duly note, it could not be found with Google, I have had to revise my opinion of the utility of Yandex] Again, to be clear, your recommendation is no pharmacologic treatment as an outpatient for the flu—like symptoms in patients that are stable, regardless of their risk factors, correct? Would you advocate for early pharmacologic outpatient treatment of symptomatic COVID-19 patients if you were confident that it was beneficial? Are you aware that there are hundreds of physicians in the United States and thousands across the globe who have had dramatic success treating high-risk individuals as outpatients with this “cocktail?” Are you aware that there are at least 10 studies demonstrating the efficacy of early outpatient treatment with the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail for high-risk patients — so this is beyond anecdotal, correct? If one of your loved ones had diabetes or asthma, or any potentially complicating comorbidity, and tested positive for COVID-19, would you recommend “wait and see how they do” and go to the hospital if symptoms progress? Even with multiple studies documenting remarkable outpatient efficacy and safety of the Hydroxychloroquine “cocktail,” you believe the risks of the medication combination outweigh the benefits? Is it true that with regard to Hydroxychloroquine and treatment of COVID-19 infection, you have said repeatedly that “The Overwhelming Evidence of Properly Conducted Randomized Clinical Trials Indicate No Therapeutic Efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ)?” But NONE of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done in the first 5 to 7 days after the onset of symptoms- correct? All of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done on hospitalized patients, correct? Hospitalized patients are typically sicker that outpatients, correct? None of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer used the full cocktail consisting of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin, correct? While the University of Minnesota study is referred to as disproving the cocktail, the meds were not given within the first 5 to 7 days of illness, the test group was not high risk (death rates were 3%), and no zinc was given, correct? Again, for clarity, the trials upon which you base your opinion regarding the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine, assessed neither the full cocktail (to include Zinc + Azithromycin or doxycycline) nor administered treatment within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, nor focused on the high-risk group, correct? Therefore, you have no basis to conclude that the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail when used early in the outpatient setting, within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, in high risk patients, is not effective, correct? It is thus false and misleading to say that the effective and safe use of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin has been “debunked,” correct? How could it be “debunked” if there is not a single study that contradicts its use? Should it not be an absolute priority for the NIH and CDC to look at ways to treat Americans with symptomatic COVID-19 infections early to prevent disease progression? The SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 virus is an RNA virus. It is well-established that Zinc interferes with RNA viral replication, correct? Moreover, is it not true that hydroxychloroquine facilitates the entry of zinc into the cell, is a “ionophore,” correct? Isn’t also it true that Azithromycin has established anti-viral properties? Are you aware of the paper from Baylor by Dr. McCullough et. al. describing established mechanisms by which the components of the “HCQ cocktail” exert anti-viral effects?
From later in their letter: >>As clearly presented in the McCullough article from Baylor, and described by Dr. Vladimir Zelenko, the efficacy of the HCQ cocktail is based on the pharmacology of the hydroxychloroquine ionophore acting as the “gun” and zinc as the “bullet,” while azithromycin potentiates the anti-viral effect. Undeniably, the hydroxychloroquine combination treatment is supported by science. Yet, you continue to ignore the “science” behind the disease. Viral replication occurs rapidly in the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms and can be treated at that point with the HCQ cocktail.>>
So- the use of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin (or doxycycline) and zinc, the “HCQ cocktail,” is based on science, correct?
We have needlessly wasted months, leading to avoidable deaths in large numbers, people left with permanent debilitation, massive economic dislocation and linked socio-psychological consequences of despair.kairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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Jerry -
What could possibly be a cofounding variable? You indicate that you have not read any of the links provided you since the beginning or else you would have not made this statement.
I have read many, but perhaps not all of the links. I've read several of the papers that have been touted (but again, not all).
Age and severity of the disease are certainly not cofounding variables because they have been controlled for since the beginning.
Not in Zelenko's study - the authors admitted that they didn't know these for the control group. Raoult, of course, went one further by not even having a control group for some of his studies.
No other medicines have been given other than palliative care treatments such as Tylenol.
In any of the studies? Not according to this paper (l141-5): "We found that in several studies, patients used several molecules with established or potential antiviral properties. For instance, in China and Iran, almost all patients used multiple antivirals: lopinavir/ritonavir, oseltamivir, entecavir, ribavirin, umifenovir and nebulisation of interferon aerosol."
As I said if there is a cofounder that is causing almost 100% success that would be the most amazing discovery of the entire virus scenario, probably one of the top 10 in medical history. Any suggestions for what could be this cofounder?
We know age and co-morbidities are confounders. We don't know if the distribution of these was the same in the control group.
So we have extremely high success with treating high risk patients early in the virus and no plausible competing explanation other than the treatment.
We also have extremely high success with patients that are not treated with HCQ, because most patients recover anyway. I'm surprised you weren't aware of this already.Bob O'H
August 16, 2020
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RH7, do you know who Dr Thomas Frieden is? Not that that adds to the intrinsic force of his point, but one hopes it would give pause. KFkairosfocus
August 15, 2020
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Novartis’ Sandoz division, which had previously donated 30 million doses of HCQ tablets to the U.S. government for use in controlled clinical studies, announced in June that it had discontinued its own sponsored HCQ clinical trial for COVID-19, due to “acute enrollment challenges.” Immediately after this decision, Novartis CEO Vas Narasimhan, in an interview with Wired magazine, was asked what he felt the drugmaker’s responsibility was in clarifying that HCQ is not the miracle cure people had hoped it would be. “Right now, unfortunately, the words ‘study, results, scientific evidence’ in the media are not actually reflecting what scientists know is high-quality evidence,” Narasimhan told Wired. “There are studies that are very poor quality, or conjecture. And then we have appropriately powered randomized control blinded clinical studies, which is what regulators expect of us, and that is the only way to really know if a drug has an impact or not,” Narasimhan said. https://www.pharmamanufacturing.com/articles/2020/making-hydroxychloroquine-great-again/rhampton7
August 15, 2020
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Racey Muchilwa, head of Sub-Sahara Africa, Novartis, a multinational pharmaceutical company, sheds light on its Covid-19 programmes targeted at low and middle-income people of Nigeria and 78 other countries. The Interview was conducted by Taiwo Alimi. Note: Novartis is a manufacturer of HCQ Another drug, hydroxychloroquine (HCQ), has come into the picture thanks to the US president, Donald Trump. How do you think Nigerians should relate to this? It should be noted that the US FDA recently withdrew its emergency-use registration for hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) to be used in Covid-19 and several trials in mild and severe Covid-19 have not shown any benefit. However, there are still several trials ongoing researching its effectiveness to treat Covid-19. There is no current evidence to suggest that HCQ should be taken to prevent disease and if symptoms appear, people should seek advice from a healthcare provider. How much of R&D has been done and ongoing on Covid-19 pandemic in relation to Sub Saharan Africa? The Novartis HCQ trial was cancelled due to difficult recruitment and also based upon latest evidence emerging to show lack of benefit in COVID-19. That trial had a number of sites in South Africa. We are also aware of some trials being carried out in Sub Sahara Africa by independent organizations such as the DNDi. There are no Novartis clinical trials ongoing in SSA specifically relating to Covid-19; however we have a number of clinical trials ongoing in malaria and sickle cell disease in East and West Africa, with our efforts also being focused on clinical trials in other disease areas such as cardiovascular, eye disease and oncology. Our aim is to improve patient access and outcomes and to this end, expanding our clinical trial footprint in SSA allows us to build R&D capabilities and to diversify the body of evidence that exists from developed parts of the world. https://thenationonlineng.net/how-were-helping-low-income-nigerians-mitigate-covid-19-impact/rhampton7
August 15, 2020
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No, that is precisely the issue. If differences between the groups are due to HCQ, then great. But if they are due to (say) age, or initial severity of the disease, then you’re making the wrong inference.
What could possibly be a cofounding variable? You indicate that you have not read any of the links provided you since the beginning or else you would have not made this statement. Age and severity of the disease are certainly not cofounding variables because they have been controlled for since the beginning. No other medicines have been given other than palliative care treatments such as Tylenol. This palliative care given is similar to that given to all the C19 patients in the US. So that is not a cofounding variable. If there is something else causing the almost universal success for these high risk patients to get better it would be an amazing medical discovery. For example, Zelenko only included those who had the virus and were high risk in his study, over 60 or those under 60 with comorbidities. All were treated with the first couple days of showing symptoms. You were pointed to this information over 4 months ago.
How do we know? To be precise, how do we know that in the studies that have shown a difference between groups, it’s because of the treatment and not a confounder?
As I said if there is a cofounder that is causing almost 100% success that would be the most amazing discovery of the entire virus scenario, probably one of the top 10 in medical history. Any suggestions for what could be this cofounder? If you find one you will make medical history and you are not even a medical doctor. So we have extremely high success with treating high risk patients early in the virus and no plausible competing explanation other than the treatment. I would go with the treatment and if there is a mystery factor, look for it. But the treatment has no down side and potentially an extremely high upside. And many other doctors also reporting similar results.jerry
August 15, 2020
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Fair enough.Mac McTavish
August 15, 2020
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I am just making an observation.ET
August 15, 2020
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Sorry, but I can’t be responsible for your imagination. What did this other guy do? I was a water treatment operator For three years. Collect samples from the distribution system, test them for chlorine, turbidity and pH using hand-held instruments, then bring some back to the plant for Colifirm testing by membrane filtration. Not exactly what I was expecting after a degree in microbiology. But I don’t imagine that I am unique in having unreasonable expectations after graduating.Mac McTavish
August 15, 2020
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And your memories sparked a deja vu. The timing of your arrival here, along with the fact that you had/ have the same job as a person who just left, I'm sure is just a coincidence.ET
August 15, 2020
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It has been over 30 years so I am sure that I am now ignorant of much of microbiology. KF’s mention of the alcohol burner just brought back some memories.Mac McTavish
August 15, 2020
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He claims to be a marine biologist. However he was ignorant of the fact that a whale has a tail.ET
August 15, 2020
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Holy crap, Mac. You sound as if you had/ have the same job as one Acartia Eddie George.
Was he a microbiologist as well? But I haven’t done that for a little over thirty years. I’m sure they do it much differently now.Mac McTavish
August 15, 2020
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Holy crap, Mac. You sound as if you had/ have the same job as one Acartia Eddie George.ET
August 15, 2020
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RHolt@33, I only know about alcohol burners because in a past life I spent endless hours per day for a few years standing over one while filtering water samples and using flamed tweezers to transfer the filters to an agar plate. Making sure water is safe to drink and/or swim in can be very tedious.Mac McTavish
August 15, 2020
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Knock it off.kairosfocus
August 15, 2020
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Mac:
I was told that size didn’t matter.
Yes, Mac, I am sure that you get that all of the time. :razz:ET
August 15, 2020
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KF
my wick is extra wide.
I was told that size didn’t matter. :)Mac McTavish
August 15, 2020
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