Dr Zelenko strikes yet again (at 911 patients and counting . . . )

_{kairosfocus

April 3, 2020

Defending our Civilization, Medicine, rhetoric}

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Here is a panel discussion for a rapidly organised conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oq6IOP1sd8

We need to hear this, where 44 million donated tablets are already in hand. END

Comments

DLH & Jerry, I missed that one. Great stuff! Thanks. KFkairosfocus_{April 18, 2020
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No comments. Interesting! Has this movement gotten any traction? It seems many commenters here are only interested in nitpicking. I will make one. Have politician gotten interested in having deaths attributed to C19 increase? Is there a financial transaction that take place for each death reported? I hope not but have heard this reported.jerry_{April 18, 2020
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Immediate Treatment for Early Stage SARS-CoV-2 Infections Recommended To Be Implemented Nationally Starting Now: Doctors advocated by 48 doctors. https://coda.io/@covid-19-initiative/immediate-treatment-early-stage-sars-cov-2 This is the best detailed medical review of Hydrochloroquine + Azithromycin + Zinc Sulfate with 109 refs Correspondence from Dr. Vladimir Zelenko https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SesxgaPnpT6OfCYuaFSwXzDK4cDKMbivoALprcVFj48/edit Latest Results, Dr. Vladimir Zelenko https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SesxgaPnpT6OfCYuaFSwXzDK4cDKMbivoALprcVFj48/edit 97% successfully treated (339/349) & kept out of ICU/Hospital. "929 total patients seen with corona - diagnosed with test or clinically." "349 high risk patients were treated with three drug regimen: 1. Hydroxychloroquine 200mg twice a day for 5 days 2. Azithromycin 500mg once a day for 5 days 3. Zinc sulfate 220mg once a day for 5 days" "The remainder of low risk patients were only treated with supportive care. Outcomes: 1 dead unfortunately- patient had been suffering from leukemia 4 intubated - 1 is extubated already 5 admitted for iv antibiotics for pneumonia"DLH_{April 17, 2020
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Nimai, I am not a doctor but the presumption would be, in typical doses. Some are substituting other antibiotics. KFkairosfocus_{April 13, 2020
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How is Azithromycin being taken i.e. how is it being implemented in order to overcoming or lessen antibiotic resistance - in what dosages? - and at what frequency?Nimai_{April 12, 2020
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JT, that sidebar has been sick for a long time. Already, they killed the hit counter as it gave trouble.WP keeps updating, the rule on bugs for complex software is more or less, one out, one in. KFkairosfocus_{April 9, 2020
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DS, gross! KFkairosfocus_{April 9, 2020
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I heard pangolins go down well with fava beans and a nice chiantiSeversky_{April 9, 2020
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Half a dozen comments just seem to have disappeared from the recent comments side bar. Weird.Jim Thibodeau_{April 9, 2020
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I guess pangolins are back on the menu, boys! :PdaveS_{April 9, 2020
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Less than 90,000 covid-19 deaths worldwide, according to JH.ET_{April 9, 2020
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BO'H: HCQ and CQ have been prescribed for 65 years, so their toxicity is well understood and known to be manageable. Where, pharmacology, in general, is the study of poisons in small doses . . . i.e. management of toxicity is a general problem; which is why there are such things as legally and ethically managed prescriptions as a longstanding standard. Also, across that time, it has been recognised that this drug family is broadly acting, including that by 2005 it was in the literature that it had significant potential as an antiviral. The policy blunder in the post-SARS1 world, was that (likely due to regulatory cumbersomeness and linked market ~~failure~~ . . . err, frustration) it was not seriously followed up and certified; and no, the evidence is, cocktails demonstrably work and work best from early . . . the it was done and failed is itself facing further studies that show limitations on methods in use; the matter is obviously not simple. A thousand cases speak. We clearly missed the signs from SARS1, H1N1, MERS, EBOLA, Chikungunya, Ziko etc that we have moved into a threshold of pandemics age and need not only a new generation of antibiotics but broadly acting cost effective antivirals. Our challenge now is to enable responsible use and study in the face of a pandemic, reflecting a broader understanding of adequacy of warrant in face of an urgent situation than will fit the procrustean bed of certain dominant statistical approaches tied to placebo-based controls. In addition, we have to address the fallacy of turning hyperskepticism into a perceived intellectual virtue, standing in the place of prudence; a worldviews level challenge. Where BTW, you dismissively begged questions on Raoult vs Oz et al above. You built in it doesn't work to dismiss Oz, ignoring Raoult and other studies that show a very different pattern. CV19 does not typically, spontaneously clear up rapidly over five days in absence of cocktails such as are being tested. And, I am not sure that a 1500 patient study on whether CQ stops HEALTHY people from catching the ordinary flu in a given season is relevant to whether it stops serious development towards complications that may readily be fatal in vulnerable groups. I didn't see a comparison on how many went to complications or died in the report on the Singapore Study's Abstract. Where, we generally have broad resistance to flu if we are healthy, CV19 by contrast is something new so immune systems are in a much less advantaged position and those with preconditions are even more vulnerable. That study looks like it is tangential at best. Such will be complex and contentious in an age where we have foolishly squandered social capital through irresponsible polarisation, agit-prop, media manipulation [to the point where credibility is largely gone], lawfare [including ambulance-chasing] etc. However, to give some due credit, in the USA, two tiers of compassionate and emergency off label use authorisation have been issued as evidence of utility has mounted up. In France, right after Raoult's 80-patient stage of study (since, he has gone to 1,000 it seems), approval was issued. Zelenko and others are advocating cocktails with antibiotics and rapid action is being reported. It should be noted that responsiveness to flow constrictions, classically, is a fourth power law so small increments of relief will be quite noticeable. The point noted by Dr Oz, that political decisions forced closing down of studies in progress shows that if you demand studies but lock them down politically, something very perverse is happening with the decision making system. You cannot reasonably demand studies then proceed to lock them down. KFkairosfocus_{April 9, 2020
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Bob O'H
I did actually answer your question.
I don't believe your answer and hold that we must give you the life and death disease so that we will know for sure exactly what your decision on taking the drug will be in real life once you are confronted with the reality of your own mortality,,, Until that test it is all merely hypothesis. i.e. "Will he or won't he take the potentially life saving drug?"
Cruel Logic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83BdmoimH0M
bornagain77_{April 9, 2020
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ba77 @ 102 - try reading my whole comment @90. I did actually answer your question. I appreciate that answering your question means that you can't use snark around me not answering your question, but I'm not sure you're helping yourself by demonstrating what seems to be an inability to read beyond a single paragraph.Bob O'H_{April 9, 2020
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Jerry @ 94 -
HCQ has been prescribed since 1950’s.
As an anti-viral to corona viruses? No, for very different diseases.Bob O'H_{April 9, 2020
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Of the. three links I posted above I would go to the second and then click the video at the top of the page rather than read the transcript. One of the more compelling interviews I have ever seen. Here is a doctor who admits they do not know what to do. The third link I posted is to an abstract of the Chinese study that BA77 linked to. Now this has to be distinguished from all that Dr. Zelenko has discussed and is doing. Zelenko is focusing on never getting to the need for any oxygen therapy or ventilation. He is pursuing killing the virus before it does any damage. For most people their immune system will do that. But for elderly and those who have impaired immune systems, they have a high chance of progressing to the end stage where they do not know what to do. The doctor in the interview says they have never seen anything like this before and they operate on protocols and there is none for this disease. Trying to get the medical system to invent new protocols is extremely difficult especially when there is so much pressure from patient load.jerry_{April 8, 2020
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Bob O'H
ba77 – "I wonder if, God forbid, Bob had this horrid disease whether or not he would want to be in a ‘control group?’ Or whether he would want to make damn sure he was getting real medicine?" Bob O'H: As has been pointed out, this is an ignorant comment. FWIW, I was once in a trial (for zit treatment, and I suspect I was in the control group).
As should be needless to say, comparing your "zit treatment" to the life and death situation that Covid-19 presents to people is what is truly ignorant. Like I said before. "I wonder if Bob can even answer that question honestly? Guess, for the sake of science, we just have to give Bob the disease and see how Bob responds (when faced with the reality of his own impending mortality)! Bet Bob sings a very different tune then! But we won't know until we run the test on Bob himself! If Bob fails the test, we can call Bob's mental affliction the 'ivory tower syndrome'.
Cruel Logic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83BdmoimH0M
bornagain77_{April 8, 2020
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Some people on facebook had questions concerning the validity of a covid-19 article on oxygen deprivation that I posted yesterday. i.e. "Covid-19 had us all fooled" To dispel any questions that may arise regarding that article. Here is the research paper that that article was based upon:
COVID-19: Attacks the 1-Beta Chain of Hemoglobin and Captures the Porphyrin to Inhibit Human Heme Metabolism - 27.03.2020 https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173/5
Bottom line, the research on oxygen deprivation due to the virus is legit. Here is the article again
Covid-19 had us all fooled, but now we might have finally found its secret. http://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb
bornagain77_{April 8, 2020
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Changes a lot about the long term treatment of serious patients. Here are three links about what this disease is all about. The top doctors have never seen anything like it before. The first link is to a short Youtube video with a NY doctor who regularly treats patients with lung disease. The second link is to a long print interview with this doctor. There is also a video for this interview. The third link is to a Chinese study on what is happening. Don't claim to understand the Chinese study. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3ka8lo_fZ8&feature=emb_logo https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/928156 At the top of this page from medscape is actually a video and the transcript is then on three pages. https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173jerry_{April 8, 2020
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Nobody volunteers to be in the control group. What they volunteer for is to be in a trial in which they may only receive a placebo.
I think you should read more. I rephrased my comment which was meant as sarcasm after someone who couldn't see that said exactly the same as you did. See above. Who would volunteer to have the opportunity to die? Not many. Instructions for the study should get consent to a statement that says if you do not receive the treatment you may die. By the way there was an ad by Shackleton that said if you volunteer for this mission there was a good chance you may die. People were lined up for blocks to volunteer. But that was something different. But people dispute the ad ever ran since no one has ever seen a copy of it.jerry_{April 8, 2020
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How can you know (or any other person) that i. e. H CQ would not be useful against certain colds ?
Not if the way it works is to prevent the hijacking of oxygen. Then by itself it would not affect a virus only what this particular virus does. Zinc may be an answer to the common cold if it could only get into the cell.jerry_{April 8, 2020
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Jerry
Who would ever volunteer to be in the control group.
Nobody volunteers to be in the control group. What they volunteer for is to be in a trial in which they may only receive a placebo.Ed George_{April 8, 2020
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@88 Bob O'H
It was done. The results were negative. Paton NI, Lee L, Xu Y, et al. Chloroquine for influenza prevention:
And? That was one study. Related to one illness. -HCQ and CQ are different molecules, with different applications (Kairosfocus was mentioning HCQ) https://www.drugs.com/compare/chloroquine-vs-hydroxychloroquine How can you know (or any other person) that i. e. HCQ would not be useful against certain colds ? Have studies been carried out? Have you knowledge of chemistry, biochemistry, microbiology and/ or pharmacology?Truthfreedom_{April 8, 2020
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Chloroquine for influenza prevention
Apparently this is not how the drug works. BA77 published a comment yesterday to an article that says the conventional wisdom on how this virus kills is wrong and has to do with its hijacking oxygen delivery to the body and that HCQ somehow prevents that. It is also how it apparently works with malaria. The current conventional wisdom is that it leads to ARDS and that is how people die. Maybe both are true. But in the meantime prescribe the drug since there are no major risks especially if you get to a ventilator there is a 50/50 chance. The other aspect of HCQ is that it is an ionophore for zinc. So two separate ways it is working. So take zinc with HCQ and get a twofer.jerry_{April 8, 2020
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Given how many medicines don’t make it through clinical trials because they don’t work, I wouldn’t be over bothered if I was in the control group
HCQ has been prescribed since 1950's. My guess is that your statement does not reflect your true feelings about this protocol.jerry_{April 8, 2020
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Actually, no. In Raoult’s original study there was one death
Thank you very much for confirming what I said. You just endorsed the treatment. Zelenko has not had that consequence yet so his results on top of the French studies seems to seal the deal. Then there is the doctor in Los Angeles with incredibly good results.jerry_{April 8, 2020
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BO'H: We are not dealing with relatively minor consequences, nor do we have no relevant evidence in hand. KF PS: We are now up to 1,000 in his study and there are several others out there.kairosfocus_{April 8, 2020
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Jerry, you are pointing to the basic ethical dilemma at stake. We already have considerable, accumulating evidence of effectiveness from chemical studies and clinical ones. That is material background whether or not it is desired. We are also dealing with a rapidly acting plague, so there is not a length of time to judge good vs bad trend so we can always stop and shift placebos if there is effectiveness; as has happened in some cases. We are not in the ethical condition of indifference, and we face the issue that people may deteriorate rapidly and die or suffer irreversible loss of lung function. We need to acknowledge evidence in hand and understand direct and indirect costs of further investigation vs acting on what is in hand; including our inevitably bounded rationality. This is where what is now clearly the fallacy of substituting hyperskepticism for prudence is showing how damaging it is. And worse, we have seen political interference that has cut off studies similar to Raoult's. It is clear to me that research methodologies need some serious revisiting, as well as linked policy. KFkairosfocus_{April 8, 2020
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ba77 -
I wonder if, God forbid, Bob had this horrid disease whether or not he would want to be in a ‘control group?’ Or whether he would want to make damn sure he was getting real medicine?
As has been pointed out, this is an ignorant comment. FWIW, I was once in a trial (for zit treatment, and I suspect I was in the control group). Given how many medicines don't make it through clinical trials because they don't work, I wouldn't be over bothered if I was in the control group. It wouldn't be any worse than not being in the trial.Bob O'H_{April 8, 2020
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Jerry @ 81 -
Now I am waiting for the nitpicking of my extremely sarcastic comment. Probably a more accurate comment is that the control group contains all the dead.
Actually, no. In Raoult's original study there was one death. And it wasn't in the control group. Two also had to stop treatmentbecause they were too ill. They were also not in the control group. And a fourth person dropped out because of side effects.Bob O'H_{April 8, 2020
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