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The Thought that Stops Thought

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Eric Hedin writes:

Do we believe that rational thought is possible?

We may at times reason badly, but we do not thereby mistrust the existence or efficacy of reason.

www.dreamstime.com

There are those, however, who do dismiss reason. “There is a thought that stops thought,” wrote G. K. Chesterton.[i] It’s the idea that there is no fundamental basis for reason. Such a self-destructive thought is aided and abetted by thinking nature is all that there is. If nature is only particles in the void obeying mindless regularities, where in that scenario is there any room for rational inquiry?

The atheist rejects faith in God and holds that reality is limited to objective scientific reasoning within the constraints of the laws of nature and the material universe.

Perhaps not all who call themselves atheists are consistent atheists, but a consistent atheist would necessarily adhere to the view that the thoughts in his brain are only the result of interactions between charged particles governed by the laws of physics.

G. K. Chesterton wrote, “It is idle to talk always of the alternative of reason and faith. Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all.”[ii] Thought itself requires a separateness from the mechanism of thinking. If naturalism is true, then our thoughts are not real in themselves; they are only random physical states of the molecules which make up the neurons of our brains. With such an assumption, we could not think. Our thoughts would only be interactions following the laws of nature, unguided by anything higher than the forces between atoms.

What becomes, then of “you”? Naturalism allows no identity of the individual beyond the probabilistic output of the three pound collection of atoms between our ears. “You cannot think if you are not separate from the subject of thought,” Chesterton continued. “Descartes said, ‘I think; therefore I am.’ The philosophic evolutionist reverses and negatives the epigram. He says, ‘I am not; therefore I cannot think.’”[iii]

Our minds, however, are unnatural in at least one important sense: they have the ability not only to comprehend nature, but also to transform nature’s elements into objects and machines that would never assemble themselves in that way. This fact is underscored by the common distinction between natural and artificial, between nature and artifice.

Years ago, I read something that brings the claims of naturalism into a stark light: Naturalism insists that hydrogen gas, given enough time, will turn into people. And since people make the technological marvels of our culture, we can extend this claim of naturalism to say that hydrogen gas, given enough time, will turn into cars, computers, and cathedrals. That’s one explanation on the table. The question is whether we are willing to consider another possibility, that mind is as much behind our finely tuned, unfolding universe as it is behind cars, computers, and cathedrals—the possibility, as C.S. Lewis put it, that “human thought is… God-kindled.”[iv] If so, then reason has a foundation far better than hydrogen gas, far better than particles in the void.


[i] G. K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy (Hollywood, FL: Simon & Brown, 1908, 2010), 28.

[ii] Chesterton, Orthodoxy (2010), 28.

[iii] Chesterton, Orthodoxy (2010), 29.

[iv] C. S. Lewis, Miracles: A Preliminary Study (New York: Harper Collins, 1947, 2001), 44.

Excerpted and adapted from Canceled Science: What Some Atheists Don’t Want You to See, by Eric Hedin (Seattle: Discovery Institute Press, 2021), ch. 11.

Comments
PS, One certain William Provine, similarly:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent
[==> key theses of nihilism. Citing the just linked IEP: "Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history." As without rational, responsible freedom, rationality collapses, Provine implies self referential incoherence. Similarly, ethical foundations include our self evident, pervasive first duties of reason: to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence, fairness and justice etc. Provine has given a recipe for gross (and all too common) intellectual irresponsibility.]
. . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]
kairosfocus
November 28, 2022
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PM1, I give you as a key case in point, one certain Sir Francis Crick (1994: The Astonishing Hypothesis), raising a first level of the problem:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
KFkairosfocus
November 28, 2022
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"Are you seriously suggesting that someone who has taken the time to understand naturalism is less reliable than someone who has constructed a silly little caricature based on what they imagine naturalism is?" I'm not sure there's much to understand. Naturalism is ambiguous. So, whatever you prefer. Andrewasauber
November 28, 2022
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If there’s something specific that you didn’t understand, by all means say so
it’s all nonsense So start over with simple ideas. That may work if there is anything really there. My guess by your answer that there is nothing there.jerry
November 28, 2022
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36
If you actually understood naturalism, you would be able to explain it in simple terms. And then how it could possibly lead to life, then rational thought and discourse.
If there's something specific that you didn't understand, by all means say so. I can't do anything with "it's all nonsense to me!"PyrrhoManiac1
November 28, 2022
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If you actually understood naturalism, you would be able to explain it in simple terms.
Simple enough for Jerry to understand? Not sure about that.Alan Fox
November 28, 2022
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Are you seriously suggesting that someone who has taken the time to understand naturalism is less reliable than someone who has constructed a silly little caricature based on what they imagine naturalism is
Yes. You presented a lot of nonsense. It’s like you had a Bingo card with a lot of unrelated words on it that sounded esoteric and you covered them all. As said, gobbledygook. If you actually understood naturalism, you would be able to explain it in simple terms. And then how it could possibly lead to life, then rational thought and discourse.jerry
November 28, 2022
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@34
Nonsense Only in the land of Make Believe. As said above, gobbledygook.
Well, I don't quite know what to say. I've made a careful study of the history of naturalism, including Lucretius, Spinoza, Hume, Marx, Nietzsche, and Dewey. I keep up with developments in cognitive neuroscience, theoretical biology, history of philosophy of biology, and evolutionary theory. Are you seriously suggesting that someone who has taken the time to understand naturalism is less reliable than someone who has constructed a silly little caricature based on what they imagine naturalism is?PyrrhoManiac1
November 28, 2022
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if one were to begin with the ideas that naturalists themselves endorse, rather than with the silly caricature invented by Chesterton, one has all the resources necessary to show how rationality makes sense within a naturalistic worldview.
Nonsense Only in the land of Make Believe. As said above, gobbledygook.jerry
November 28, 2022
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@31
If somebody claims that he is “a neuronal illusion” means also that every statement he make is an illusion (including the statement about him being a neuronal illusion) therefore is like begging(unintentionally) for not being believed.
Not that it matters much, but I never made any claims here about the self being a neuronal illusion. (I do not find such claims altogether coherent, since they tend to end up in a weird sort of materialistic Cartesianism.)
Talking about self-contradiction.
What contradiction do you observe here? @32
Of course you don’t. It would be like saying “I don’t think there is any obstacle to ID or Flying Pasta Monsters, or Zeus, or Something From Nothing.” Your entire post is gobbeldy-gook, and it doesn’t demonstrate anything.
My post demonstrates that if one were to begin with the ideas that naturalists themselves endorse, rather than with the silly caricature invented by Chesterton, one has all the resources necessary to show how rationality makes sense within a naturalistic worldview.PyrrhoManiac1
November 28, 2022
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"I don’t think there is any obstacle to a naturalistic account of rationality" PM1, Of course you don't. It would be like saying "I don't think there is any obstacle to ID or Flying Pasta Monsters, or Zeus, or Something From Nothing." Your entire post is gobbeldy-gook, and it doesn't demonstrate anything. Andrewasauber
November 28, 2022
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Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist (who believes Darwinian evolution to be true) is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris, Coyne)
If somebody claims that he is "a neuronal illusion" means also that every statement he make is an illusion(including the statement about him being a neuronal illusion) therefore is like begging(unintentionally) for not being believed. Self-contradiction.
PyrrhoManiac1 If life itself is fundamentally different from non-biological systems in that it is not governed by entailing laws, then we should reject a conception of “nature” that is based on physics alone.
PyrrhoManiac1 I don’t think there is any obstacle to a naturalistic account of rationality,
:))) Talking about self-contradiction.whistler
November 28, 2022
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@20
It would be like imagining that a computer came into existence by natural forces, and then expecting it to also become sentient by natural forces. Natural forces lead to predictable outcomes. Even within the quantum world, probabilistic outcomes can be predicted. Our rationality is not predictable; if it were, we are deluded robots.
This contains, I think, the main idea that I disagree with: that "natural forces lead to predictable outcomes". If that were right, then I can see how the rest of what you say might follow. I think this is wrong because it relies upon a certain version of reductive materialism. Specifically, it assumes that biological phenomena can be reduced to physical ones. But I don't think that they can be. Physical phenomena are, for the most part, governed by entailing laws: once we know the laws that describe the behavior of a system, and we know the boundary conditions of that system, we can predict how the system will change over time. But life is not like that. The boundary conditions are not given in advance. There are no entailing laws that prestate what ecological niches will emerge. Life is fundamentally unprestatable. (For more, see No entailing laws, but enablemement in the evolution of the biosphere, The world is not a theorem, and for the daring, the magisterial and incomparable Life Itself by Robert Rosen. If life itself is fundamentally different from non-biological systems in that it is not governed by entailing laws, then we should reject a conception of "nature" that is based on physics alone. The next step would be conceptualize cognition in biological terms, focusing on the importance of anticipation. Biological cognitive systems build maps of the environment and of the organism's body in relation to that environment for the sake of achieving organism-specific goals and satisfying organism-specific needs. These maps allow organisms to anticipate, from what is given here-and-now, what will be available at different times and places. These maps needed to be updatable based on what happens to the organism -- in other words, organisms needed to be able to learn. The evolution of learning was a huge leap forward in kinds of neurocognitive systems. What language allows us to do, I think, is that it gives us a format in which to encode our neurobiological map-based inferences, make those inferences available to others, who can then issue corrections based on their neurobiological inferential maps. That is: argumentation drove the evolution of human rationality: arguments about where to hunt, where to camp, how to build an efficient and weather-resistant shelter, etc. In other words, I don't think there is any obstacle to a naturalistic account of rationality, if one begins with what naturalists themselves actually think naturalism is, and not with what their opponents think that naturalism is.PyrrhoManiac1
November 28, 2022
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where in that scenario is there any room for rational inquiry?
And along come pretty little niche so rationale is busting out all over. The consciousness niche and rationality niche were there waiting to create. All it took was the make believe niche. In reality, niches destroy not create something new. UD is full of niches, one is the fools niche for which there is great competition. Aside: I recently saw Carousel which is the source of the metaphor.jerry
November 28, 2022
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If nature is only particles in the void obeying mindless regularities, where in that scenario is there any room for rational inquiry?
BOOM!!Origenes
November 28, 2022
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CD: "Defining “naturalism” as accepting only physical explanations for physical phenomena, it is hardly an “irrational position.” In fact, it is the only testable position….." "it is the only testable position"? Really??? I beg to differ. Besides the fact that assuming naturalism/materialism to be true drives science into catastrophic epistemological failure,,
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist (who believes Darwinian evolution to be true) is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris, Coyne), who has unreliable, (i.e. illusory), beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. the illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who also must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the hopelessness of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is simply too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Who, since beauty cannot be grounded within his materialistic worldview, must also hold beauty itself to be illusory (Darwin). Bottom line, nothing is truly real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, April 18, 2021 - Defense of each claim https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/philosopher-mary-midgeley-1919-2018-on-scientism/#comment-728595 August 2022 - Moreover, to put a cherry on top of all this, empirical science has now proven, via the falsification of ‘realism’ by Leggett’s inequality, that material particles themselves, (which Darwinist materialists hold to be the ultimate foundation for all of reality), are not ‘real’. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-evolution-news-recognizing-providence-in-the-history-of-life-is-a-hint-about-our-own-lives/#comment-763046
,,, Besides the fact that assuming naturalism/materialism to be true drives science into catastrophic epistemological failure, the Naturalistic/materialistic philosophy and Theistic philosophy make, and have made, several contradictory predictions about what type of scientific evidence we will find. These contradictory predictions, and the scientific evidence that we now have in hand, can be tested against one another to see if either Naturalism/materialism or Theism is true.
1. Naturalism/Materialism predicted space-time energy-matter always existed. Theism predicted space-time energy-matter were created. Big Bang cosmology now strongly indicates that time-space energy-matter had a sudden creation event approximately 14 billion years ago. 2. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the universe is a self sustaining system that is not dependent on anything else for its continued existence. Theism predicted that God upholds this universe in its continued existence. Breakthroughs in quantum mechanics reveal that this universe is dependent on a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause for its continued existence. 3. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that consciousness is an ‘emergent property’ of material reality and thus should have no particularly special position within material reality. Theism predicts consciousness precedes material reality and therefore, on that presupposition, consciousness should have a ‘special’ position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality. - 4. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe. Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time. – Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 – 2 Timothy 1:9) - 5. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and that life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind. Scientists find the universe is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. Moreover it is found, when scrutinizing the details of physics and chemistry, that not only is the universe fine-tuned for carbon based life, but is specifically fine-tuned for intelligent life like human life (R. Collins, M. Denton).- 6. Naturalism/Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe. Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex organic life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe (G. Gonzalez; Hugh Ross). - 7. Naturalism/Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11). Geochemical evidence from the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth indicates that complex photosynthetic life has existed on earth as long as water has been on the face of earth. - 8. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the first life to be relatively simple. Theism predicted that God is the source for all life on earth. The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 9. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse animal life to appear abruptly in the seas in God’s fifth day of creation. The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short “geologic resolution time” in the Cambrian seas. - 10. Naturalism/Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record. Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record(disparity), then rapid diversity within that group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 11. Naturalism/Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth – Man (our genus ‘modern homo’ as distinct from the highly controversial ‘early homo’) is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. (Tattersall; Luskin)– 12. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the separation of human intelligence from animal intelligence ‘is one of degree and not of kind’ (C. Darwin). Theism predicted that we are made in the ‘image of God’- Despite an ‘explosion of research’ in this area over the last four decades, human beings alone are found to ‘mentally dissect the world into a multitude of discrete symbols, and combine and recombine those symbols in their minds to produce hypotheses of alternative possibilities.’ (Tattersall; Schwartz). Moreover, both biological life and the universe itself are found to be ‘information theoretic’ in their foundational basis. 13. Naturalism/Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made – ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a “biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.”. - 14. Naturalism/Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth – The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 15. Naturalism/Materialism predicted morality is subjective and illusory. Theism predicted morality is objective and real. Morality is found to be deeply embedded in the genetic responses of humans. As well, morality is found to be deeply embedded in the structure of the universe. Embedded to the point of eliciting physiological responses in humans before humans become aware of the morally troubling situation and even prior to the event even happening. 16. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that we are merely our material bodies with no transcendent component to our being, and that we die when our material bodies die. Theism predicted that we have minds/souls that are transcendent of our bodies that live past the death of our material bodies. Transcendent, and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created or destroyed), ‘non-local’, (beyond space-time matter-energy), quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale (in every DNA and protein molecule). https://docs.google.com/document/d/15i87oT7IkCI0W0Hxg5mZ_8FP23MG_GTFrR0zvgKH9zU/edit
As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy (methodological naturalism), from the scientific method, and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. - In fact modern science is even very good at pointing us to Christianity as the solution to the much sought after 'theory of everything'
Oct. 2022 – And although there will never be a purely mathematical ‘theory of everything’ that bridges the infinite mathematical divide that exists between quantum mechanics and general relativity, all hope is not lost in finding the correct ‘theory if everything’.,,,, https://uncommondescent.com/cosmology/from-iai-news-how-infinity-threatens-cosmology/#comment-766384
Verse:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
November 27, 2022
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Chuckdarwin @
Defining “naturalism” as accepting only physical explanations for physical phenomena, it is hardly an “irrational position.” In fact, it is the only testable position…..
Naturalism is a metaphysical claim about the entirety of reality — our thoughts included. And testable or not, naturalism is a non-starter in the world of rationality.Origenes
November 27, 2022
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The CNS is composed of neural and glial cells, not "meat."chuckdarwin
November 27, 2022
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In speaking of a consistent atheist, I was referring to someone whose worldview is internally consistent with the tenets of atheism.
I have no idea what you mean. I don’t know what “worldview” implies for an atheist so as to judge if it is consistent with atheism. Certainly people who claim they are atheist are all over the place politically, and socially.
So, God has designed the way things are to enable each of us to have a free choice with respect to what we believe. Such is consistent with love
I have no idea how love fits in but why the knife edge? It is definitely based on free choice and it definitely meant to create doubt but why? I believe this is the key question and designed this way. I fail to see how love is a main part of the answer Also why are people so easily swayed and why is it so hard to believe? My experience with the world is that few people believe but another larger group will go along for emotional reasons because it is good that they should believe.jerry
November 27, 2022
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In what should be needless to say, if it is impossible for you to consistently live your life as if your worldview were actually true, (and as if you don't actually have free will in some real and meaningful sense), then your worldview can't possibly reflect reality as it really is, but instead your worldview must be based on a delusion.
Existential Argument against Atheism – November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. – per answers for hope
And indeed, scientifically speaking, the Atheist’s denial of free will does not ‘reflect reality as it really is’. Neuroscience itself, despite the atheist’s denial to the contrary, shows that we most certainly do have free will,
Michael Egnor Shows You’re Not A Meat Robot (Science Uprising EP2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQo6SWjwQIk Michael Egnor: Is free will a dangerous myth? – October 6, 2018 Excerpt: 4.,,, the neuroscientific evidence unequivocally supports the existence of free will. The first neuroscientist to map the brains of conscious subjects, Wilder Penfield, noted that there is an immaterial power of volition in the human mind that he could not stimulate with electrodes. The pioneer in the neuroscience of free will was Benjamin Libet, who demonstrated clearly that, while there is an unconscious material predisposition to acts as shown by electrical brain activity, we retain an immaterial “free won’t,” which is the ability to veto an unconscious urge to act. Many experiments have followed on Libet’s work, most of which use fMRI imaging of brain activity. They all confirm Libet’s observations by showing what is at most a loose correlation between brain activity and volition (for example, nearly half the time the brain activity that precedes the act is on the wrong side of the brain for the activity to determine the will)—the looseness of correlation being best explained as evidence for libertarian free will. Modern neuroscience clearly demonstrates an immaterial component to volition. Harari is wrong about free will. It is not a myth. Free will is a real and fundamental aspect of being human, and the denial of free will is junk science and self-refuting logical nonsense. https://mindmatters.ai/2018/10/is-free-will-a-dangerous-myth/
In further scientifically demonstrating that the atheist’s denial of the reality of free will does not “reflect reality as it really is’, in quantum mechanics we also find that, via their free will, “humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level.,,,”
The Trouble with Quantum Mechanics – Steven Weinberg – January 19, 2017 Excerpt: The instrumentalist approach,, (the) wave function,, is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made.,, In the instrumentalist approach,,, humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal,,, Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,, http://quantum.phys.unm.edu/466-17/QuantumMechanicsWeinberg.pdf Cosmic Bell Test Using Random Measurement Settings from High-Redshift Quasars – Anton Zeilinger – 14 June 2018 Excerpt: This experiment pushes back to at least approx. 7.8 Gyr ago the most recent time by which any local-realist influences could have exploited the “freedom-of-choice” loophole to engineer the observed Bell violation, excluding any such mechanism from 96% of the space-time volume of the past light cone of our experiment, extending from the big bang to today. https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.121.080403
As newly minted Nobel Laureate Anton Zeilinger stated, “what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.”
“The Kochen-Speckter Theorem talks about properties of one system only. So we know that we cannot assume – to put it precisely, we know that it is wrong to assume that the features of a system, which we observe in a measurement exist prior to measurement. Not always. I mean in certain cases. So in a sense, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.” – Anton Zeilinger – Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video (7:17 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4C5pq7W5yRM#t=437
Moreover, the belief in the reality of free will, especially the free will of God, (via 'contingency"), played a central role in founding of modern science in medieval Christian Europe,
“That (contingency) was a huge concept (that was important for the founding of modern science). The historians of science call that ‘contingency’. The idea that nature has an order that is built into it. But it is an order that is contingent upon the will of the Creator. It could have been otherwise. Just as there are many ways to make a timepiece, or a clock,,, there are many different ways God could have ordered the universe. And it is up to us not to deduce that order from first principles, or from some intuitions that we have about how nature ought to be, but rather it is important to go out and see how nature actually is.” – Stephen Meyer – 5:00 minute mark – Andrew Klavan and Stephen Meyer Talk God and Science https://idthefuture.com/1530/ ‘Without all doubt this world...could arise from nothing but the perfectly free will of God... From this fountain (what) we call the laws of nature have flowed, in which there appear many traces indeed of the most wise contrivance, but not the least shadow of necessity. These therefore we must not seek from uncertain conjectures, but learn them from observations and experiments.",,, - Sir Isaac Newton - (Cited from Religion and the Rise of Modern Science by Hooykaas page 49). https://thirdspace.org.au/comment/237
Moreover, when we rightly allow the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, (as the Christian founders of modern science originally held with the presupposition of ‘contingency’), and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands with the closing of the “freedom-of-choice” loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), then rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead bridges the infinite mathematical divide that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics and provides us with an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”
Oct. 2022 - And although there will never be a purely mathematical ‘theory of everything’ that bridges the infinite mathematical divide that exists between quantum mechanics and general relativity, all hope is not lost in finding the correct ‘theory if everything’.,,,, https://uncommondescent.com/cosmology/from-iai-news-how-infinity-threatens-cosmology/#comment-766384
Verse:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
November 27, 2022
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As to PM1:
"If naturalism is true, then our thoughts are not real in themselves; they are only random physical states of the molecules which make up the neurons of our brains. With such an assumption, we could not think. Our thoughts would only be interactions following the laws of nature, unguided by anything higher than the forces between atoms." PMI: "This is entirely false. It does not follow from the non-existence of a personal God that our thoughts lack content or correspondence. Only someone wholly ignorant of basic logic could say something so inane." "Naturalism cannot enclose rationality." PMI: "Of course it can. Whatever are you talking about?"
A fatal flaw in the Atheistic Naturalist's (PMI's) claim that rationality can be grounded within Naturalism is that logic itself, (and therefore logical reasoning), is profoundly immaterial in its foundational essence. As Dr. Egnor noted, "logic — is neither material nor natural. Logic, after all, doesn’t exist “in the space-time continuum” and isn’t described by physics. What is the location of modus ponens? How much does Gödel’s incompleteness theorem weigh? What is the physics of non-contradiction?,,, The strength of Clark’s defense of naturalism is that it is an attempt to present naturalism’s tenets clearly and logically. That is its weakness as well,,,, Even to define naturalism is to refute it."
Naturalism and Self-Refutation - Michael Egnor - January 31, 2018 Furthermore, the very framework of Clark’s argument — logic — is neither material nor natural. Logic, after all, doesn’t exist “in the space-time continuum” and isn’t described by physics. What is the location of modus ponens? How much does Gödel’s incompleteness theorem weigh? What is the physics of non-contradiction? How many millimeters long is Clark’s argument for naturalism? Ironically the very logic that Clark employs to argue for naturalism is outside of any naturalistic frame. The strength of Clark’s defense of naturalism is that it is an attempt to present naturalism’s tenets clearly and logically. That is its weakness as well, because it exposes naturalism to scrutiny, and naturalism cannot withstand even minimal scrutiny. Even to define naturalism is to refute it. https://evolutionnews.org/2018/01/naturalism-and-self-refutation/
Another fatal flaw for Atheistic Naturalists, a fatal flaw that renders their worldview profoundly irrational, is their denial of the reality of free will.
Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html Of note: Martin Cothran is author of several textbooks on traditional logic https://www.amazon.com/Martin-Cothran/e/B00J249LUA/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1 (1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain (determinism). (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality. per Box UD
The supposedly ‘scientific’ denial of the reality of free will, i.e. agent causality, by Atheistic Naturalists, leads to some rather bizarre situations for the atheist. For instance, “if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options.”
Physicist George Ellis on the importance of philosophy and free will – July 27, 2014 Excerpt: And free will?: Horgan: Einstein, in the following quote, seemed to doubt free will: “If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the Earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.” Do you believe in free will? Ellis: Yes. Einstein is perpetuating the belief that all causation is bottom up. This simply is not the case, as I can demonstrate with many examples from sociology, neuroscience, physiology, epigenetics, engineering, and physics. Furthermore if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense. Physicists should pay attention to Aristotle’s four forms of causation – if they have the free will to decide what they are doing. If they don’t, then why waste time talking to them? They are then not responsible for what they say. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-george-ellis-on-the-importance-of-philosophy-and-free-will/
To further illustrate just how insane the Atheistic Naturalist's position is, in their denial of free will, atheists are forced to hold that, “You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact.”
Do You Like SETI? Fine, Then Let’s Dump Methodological Naturalism Paul Nelson – September 24, 2014 Excerpt: Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, “We cannot know that a mind caused x,” laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. “That’s crazy,” you reply, “I certainly did write my email.” Okay, then — to what does the pronoun “I” in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent. https://evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set/
If denying that you are the author of your very own writing is not an irrational position for a person to hold, then nothing else is to be considered irrational. Moreover, nobody, not even atheists, actually live their lives as if they had no free will,
The Heretic – Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? – March 25, 2013 Excerpt: ,,, Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. https://www.sott.net/article/260160-The-Heretic-Who-is-Thomas-Nagel-and-why-are-so-many-of-his-fellow-academics-condemning-him
Even leading Darwinian atheists themselves have honestly admitted that it impossible for them to actually live their lives as if they did not have free will,
Darwin’s Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails – Nancy Pearcey – April 23, 2015 Excerpt: Even materialists often admit that, in practice, it is impossible for humans to live any other way. One philosopher jokes that if people deny free will, then when ordering at a restaurant they should say, “Just bring me whatever the laws of nature have determined I will get.” An especially clear example is Galen Strawson, a philosopher who states with great bravado, “The impossibility of free will … can be proved with complete certainty.” Yet in an interview, Strawson admits that, in practice, no one accepts his deterministic view. “To be honest, I can’t really accept it myself,” he says. “I can’t really live with this fact from day to day. Can you, really?”,,, In What Science Offers the Humanities, Edward Slingerland, identifies himself as an unabashed materialist and reductionist. Slingerland argues that Darwinian materialism leads logically to the conclusion that humans are robots — that our sense of having a will or self or consciousness is an illusion. Yet, he admits, it is an illusion we find impossible to shake. No one “can help acting like and at some level really feeling that he or she is free.” We are “constitutionally incapable of experiencing ourselves and other conspecifics [humans] as robots.” One section in his book is even titled “We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.”,,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine — a “big bag of skin full of biomolecules” interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, “When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, … see that they are machines.” Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: “That is not how I treat them…. I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis.” Certainly if what counts as “rational” is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks’s worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn’t. Brooks ends by saying, “I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs.” He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
Even Richard Dawkins himself admitted that it would be ‘intolerable’ for him to live his life as if his atheistic materialism were actually true and that he had no free will, i.e. no moral agency,
Who wrote Richard Dawkins’s new book? – October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don’t feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
bornagain77
November 27, 2022
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Origenes/17 Defining "naturalism" as accepting only physical explanations for physical phenomena, it is hardly an "irrational position." In fact, it is the only testable position.....chuckdarwin
November 27, 2022
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PM1 @10: I appreciate your response to the main point of the post. However, just negating it doesn't really amount to a counter-argument. You say, "This is entirely false. It does not follow from the non-existence of a personal God that our thoughts lack content or correspondence. Only someone wholly ignorant of basic logic could say something so inane. Naturalism cannot enclose rationality. Of course it can. Whatever are you talking about?" The argument you negate is that if only natural forces exist, rationalism is non-existent. Why would this be the case? It would be like imagining that a computer came into existence by natural forces, and then expecting it to also become sentient by natural forces. Natural forces lead to predictable outcomes. Even within the quantum world, probabilistic outcomes can be predicted. Our rationality is not predictable; if it were, we are deluded robots. Random or chaotic systems are just terms for systems in which the outcomes are difficult to predict, due to lack of knowledge of the initial conditions, or in cases where the outcome is very sensitive to slight changes in the initial conditions. Neither situation is a substitute for anything resembling rationality. If our rationality is a function of something non-physical, meaning an impartation of a spiritual nature from God, then something other than forces between atoms is at work. It's slightly akin to having a programmer at the keyboard of the computer, or it's like having a live DJ on the air with the radio show, or it's like interacting with a living human being rather than a cadaver. I hope you can see past my lame examples to believe that a person is more than a body run by a computer made of meat.Caspian
November 27, 2022
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Jerry @1: "Then the question becomes why didn’t the creator provide a QED proof." Much could be said about this, but it is fair to say that there is enough evidence for God if one is open to belief and there is enough hiddenness of God to freely reject him if one is not open to belief. So, God has designed the way things are to enable each of us to have a free choice with respect to what we believe. Such is consistent with love.Caspian
November 27, 2022
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Jerry @1 "There is no such thing as a consistent atheist." In speaking of a consistent atheist, I was referring to someone whose worldview is internally consistent with the tenets of atheism. Whether or not one judges that worldview to be consistent with reality is another matter.Caspian
November 27, 2022
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Chuckdarwin:
The mistake lies in conflating “natural” with “mindless.
Surely, there is no mistake in pointing out that naturalism is an irrational position. “Mindless” here simply refers to the fact that both particles and physical laws are operating in total disconnect from rationality. If our thoughts are produced by mindless particles in the void mindlessly obeying physical laws, then rationality does not exist. Hope that helps.Origenes
November 27, 2022
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Origenes/13 You (and the author) keep using the term "mindless" to describe particles and laws. Laws are not "mindless" (unless they are enacted by MAGA legislators). Laws are invariant predictions of how "particles" (matter) will act in a given situation. The mistake lies in conflating "natural" with "mindless." Equating the natural world with a "mindless" world demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the natural world. Matter acted in a lawful manner long before "minds" arrived on the scene.chuckdarwin
November 27, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1 @
To say that our thoughts are produced by mindless stuff obeying physical laws is to say that our thoughts lack content — they aren’t about anything ...
Under materialism, thoughts lacking content, not being about anything, is just one more affixed problem. Chesterton, as I understand him, stresses the crucial point that, under materialism, thoughts are produced by blind processes lacking all basic requirements WRT rationality. His argument is conclusive. Naturalism is a non-starter, an irreparable irrational theory.Origenes
November 27, 2022
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@13
If naturalism is true, our thoughts are produced by mindless particles obeying mindless physical laws. IOW our thoughts are produced by stuff that is not at all interested in rationality and has no overview of any kind. So, if naturalism is true, then rational inquiry is not possible.
Naturalism says that there is nothing supernatural: that all that exists is somehow continuous with the world of ordinary sense-experience. Hence it excludes Platonic forms, a transcendent God, and real abstracta. To say that our thoughts are produced by mindless stuff obeying physical laws is to say that our thoughts lack content -- they aren't about anything, they lack what philosophers call "intentionality" -- and that they cannot correspond to how things are, they lack truth-value (can be neither true nor false). Hence I was quite correct to say "It does not follow from the non-existence of a personal God that our thoughts lack content or correspondence".PyrrhoManiac1
November 27, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1:
It does not follow from the non-existence of a personal God that our thoughts lack content or correspondence.
That is not the argument. Try again. - - - - - - - - Chuckdarwin:
... rationality is found in the regularities themselves. The author doesn’t claim that fundamental particles act unpredictably or chaotically (i.e., irrationally), but according to rules.
Obeying mindless rules doesn’t make rationality. Chesterton again:
If nature is only particles in the void obeying mindless regularities, where in that scenario is there any room for rational inquiry?
If naturalism is true, our thoughts are produced by mindless particles obeying mindless physical laws. IOW our thoughts are produced by stuff that is not at all interested in rationality and has no overview of any kind. So, if naturalism is true, then rational inquiry is not possible.Origenes
November 27, 2022
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