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Thinking More Deeply About Causation

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I put up a post on MindMatters today about the stock market with a provocative title – “Everyone Can Beat the Market”. It’s not actually about the stock market, but that was the area I was thinking about at the time. It was, in fact, a piece on thinking about causation.

Most people (including experts) tend to have a one-level view of causation. That is, they have a static idea of what the subject matter is, and then they look to see how the pieces bounce around within that static structure. That more or less works for physics. It totally fails everywhere else.

The fact is, in every social interaction, effects become causes of future happenings. Not only that, the effects modify not only the things modeled, but also the static structure that the model assumes. Imagine, for instance, if a gravity experiment actually changed gravity permanently.

A great illustration of this is a cartoon from XKCD.

Romance Drama Cartoon

The problem being described here isn’t just that people are complicated, it’s that the effects change the structure of the game itself. That’s why modeling it is so hard.

This has dramatic effects in everyday life that we don’t even recognize, because our faulty analogy of human causation with physical causation has programmed us not to recognize them.

In the article, I point out that the effects of investing decisions actually effect the market itself. We tend to think of the market as a static structure, but it’s not. The members of the market, the legal rules they utilize, the social rules they utilize, the relationships between the players – all of these things are subject to change.

Take WeWork for instance. It never actually made it to be a part of the market, but it’s failure to materialize will change the decision-making of the market and the precursors to the market for a long time. This means that it will be a *different* market than before. The typical decision-making will be different than before. The risk/reward analysis will be different than before, etc.

While this isn’t meant to focus on politics, I wanted to point out another way that this manifests. In the 2016 election, everybody said, “you have to choose one, so choose the lesser of two evils” (or at least that’s what my friends said). I decided to vote for no one, because no one met my minimum standard. Now, by myself, that does nothing. However, imagine that a large group of people had voted for no one. Do you think that this would be a phenomena that the pollsters would miss? While it is true that I would have failed to effect change of the outcome of 2016, if a large group did it, it could mean the change of the outcome of every election afterwards, as the powers-that-be who run candidates realize that they actually have to appeal to us, and not just run a “not-as-bad-as-that-guy” campaign. The popular mindset says that *this* present outcome is the only thing that matters. But that’s because they all view the game as static.

When you realize that the game itself changes based on your participation, you look at every decision you make differently.

This is why I don’t care about 99% of what psychology or sociology says. Nearly the whole field is chasing mathematical models, not recognizing that the choices you make changes the model itself.

Comments
PK@40, interesting set of quotes. Only someone who has a serious reading comprehension problem (or other pathology) would deny that this demonstrates your point at 37.Ed George
January 15, 2020
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Strange that Pater K's reference doesn't support his claimET
January 15, 2020
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PK - in my case I'm not blaming the younger generation. I think nobody has been more manipulated by social engineering and I am also very sympathetic with some of the extreme reactions that come out from that whether from left or right wing.Silver Asiatic
January 15, 2020
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https://qz.com/quartzy/1264118/the-2500-year-old-history-of-adults-blaming-the-younger-generation/Pater Kimbridge
January 15, 2020
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Pater K:
I have news for you.
Very doubtful
For thousands of years, every generation has found something about the next generation’s behavior that they find abhorrent, and that they think will “ruin society”.
Your hearsay just proves that you are clueless
Wanting everyone to think like you do, …
You must be a desperate troll. I never said, implied nor thought that everyone should think like me.ET
January 15, 2020
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So lawfulness is fascism, and 'anything goes' is freedom. Yes, we are famiiar with that line of thinking, and have seen the remorseless degeneration of our country and the world at large, since the marginalisation of the Christian faith ; in the UK, notably, in the morning assemblies in the schools. 'I have news for you. For thousands of years, every generation has found something about the next generation’s behavior that they find abhorrent, and that they think will “ruin society”. And I have news for you. Sodomy has been pretty anathema to every generation throughout the major religions across the globe. Yes, the Greeks were an exception. So what ? Even they gave it the 'bum's rush', so to speak, many, many centuries ago - in favour of Christianity.Axel
January 15, 2020
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ET said: "...By enabling deviant, unnatural and perverse lifestyles, we are ruining society...." I have news for you. For thousands of years, every generation has found something about the next generation's behavior that they find abhorrent, and that they think will "ruin society". And yet, society is still here. It may not be YOUR ideal society, but it's not my ideal society either. Wanting everyone to think like you do, now THAT's fascism.Pater Kimbridge
January 15, 2020
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“Drag queens are not for kids.”
I'd think that would be obvious, but young Gavin Wilson suffered a "barrage" of on-line hostility for saying it.Silver Asiatic
January 15, 2020
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EG
And how has SSM resulted in persecution?
People feel they have been persecuted, victimized, harrassed and stigmatized. People are slurred with the term "homophobic" which may be a form of hate-speech. Here's a sad story: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/student-found-dead-after-viral-video-of-him-leading-protest-against-drag-queen-event-for-kids Gavin's unpopular stand against same-sex “marriage” and transgenderism [is] all the more admirable because of the backlash he endured. “Drag queen protester Wilson Gavin’s suicide exposes horrors of online abuse,” blared a headline at The Australian, noting that he had received “a barrage of social media abuse” after the library drag queen story time video went viral.Silver Asiatic
January 15, 2020
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SA
I was not talking about “prosecution” but “persecution”, which is similar to stigmatizing.
And how has SSM resulted in persecution?Ed George
January 15, 2020
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EG
That SSM is morally wrong is your subjective opinion. The majority of people disagree with you.
If you're saying that "majority rules" in our society, then that really has nothing to do with finding the truth.
Johnny’s only concerns are the intolerance that the other kids pick up from their intolerant parents.
Kids often understand this issue better than adults. They instinctively know that homosexuality is perverted. Adults are trying to tell them otherwise but it doesn't always work.
No, it results in prosecution of people if they break the law.
I was not talking about "prosecution" but "persecution", which is similar to stigmatizing.Silver Asiatic
January 15, 2020
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Acartia Ed, piece of …
Never a sound strategy.
It is very sound strategy when responding to your ignorant trope.
That SSM is morally wrong is your subjective opinion.
Wrong again. It goes against nature. It goes against evolution. It is deviant and perverse.ET
January 15, 2020
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EG
So, correct me if I am wrong. Are you suggesting that we should have avoided all efforts to acknowledge and accept homosexuality? We should not have prevented employment or housing discrimination based on homosexuality? We should not have stopped jailing people for homosexuality? Or stopped imposing castration (or chemical castration) for homosexuals?
If you read BA77's (and KF's and many others) many posts on this topic you will see that it is impossible to arrive at a shared understanding of moral norms within the context of materialist evolution. I don't think any of the evolutionists here accept that point. No arguments are ever provided and none of the evolutionists are brave enough to admit what their own philosophy requires from them. So, discussing morals and what "we" should do about whatever topic, within our society is as mindless as evolution itself. It's pointless. We cannot even get you to accept the consequences of your own worldview. How could we talk in detail about moral norms in society and what "we should do" about whatever issue it may be, whether repressing vice, ensuring safety, creating order and stability or providing an environment that supports the meaning and destiny of human life? You don't have any grounds for moral outrage, and I think that's the point. Persecution of one group of people is no better or worse than the same with another. Evolution does not care about such things. Materialism is not a philosophy that requires anyone to be nice to anyone else. The great materialist leaders of the past understood that. Might makes right. Today's neo-Nazis simply take that philosophy seriously and direct it towards right-wing interests. The only response that leftist-materialists can make to that is to call them nutcases. But there's really no argument. Fascists want something. If they have to torture or even kill people to get it - then why not? I just understand the consistency of that view. "If we are strong enough, we can kill our enemies". That's materialist evolution.Silver Asiatic
January 15, 2020
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SA
I’ll just quote ET’s response:
Never a sound strategy.
People believe that things are getting worse simply because something that is morally wrong is being enabled and honored as a social and moral good. That’s the definition of perversion.
That SSM is morally wrong is your subjective opinion. The majority of people disagree with you.
You’re telling Johnny that his concerns are not as important as yours.
Johnny's only concerns are the intolerance that the other kids pick up from their intolerant parents.
Some homosexuals would disagree with this, and changes in laws and employment policies are not merely a matter of having views questioned. It’s a radical change in culture and society that leads to persecution of people.
No, it results in prosecution of people if they break the law.Ed George
January 15, 2020
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EG
Do they have concrete examples?
I'll just quote ET's response:
By enabling deviant, unnatural and perverse lifestyles, we are ruining society. Cause and effect.
People believe that things are getting worse simply because something that is morally wrong is being enabled and honored as a social and moral good. That's the definition of perversion.
The internet, social media, both parents working, alergies, easy access to porn, etc. Dealing with the fact that your friend Johnny has two fathers is minor compared to all the others.
You're telling Johnny that his concerns are not as important as yours. But there's no reason to think that the imagined rights of his two fathers have any importance at all.
Having your views questioned is not the same as being stigmatized.
Some homosexuals would disagree with this, and changes in laws and employment policies are not merely a matter of having views questioned. It's a radical change in culture and society that leads to persecution of people.Silver Asiatic
January 15, 2020
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Ed George rightly wants us to feel compassion for the discrimination and abuse that homosexuals have suffered in the past. Yet, why does Ed George not also want us to feel compassion for the unborn babies who are currently being torn limb from limb in their mother's womb?
WATCH: Fox host cries as former abortionist describes late-term abortion 'I really looked at that pile of body parts on the side of the table, and I didn’t see her wonderful right to choose.' Thu Feb 28, 2019 https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/fox-host-cries-as-former-abortionist-describes-late-term-abortion
Ed George, if he were consistent in his morality, should be much more upset with the current widespread practice of late-term dismemberment abortions on unborn humans than he is about past injustices against homosexuals. After all, dismemberment abortions are far more inhumane and are currently happening right now this very day in America (and across the world). In short, Ed George, (an anti-Christian who has no objective moral basis within his atheistic worldview in the first place), is using the objective morality of Christianity, (i.e. equality among men), in a very hypocritical and selective fashion just so in order to further his so-called 'progressive agenda'. A 'progressive agenda' which is basically just a secular humanistic, anti-Christian, agenda. In short, Ed George is sawing off the objective moral branch that he himself happens to be sitting on. If Ed George were as truly compassionate for his fellow humans as he tries to pretend to be, he would instantly drop his Atheistic worldview in a New York minute and become a Christian since his Atheistic worldview has been responsible for far more misery for man than any other worldview in history has been.
Atheism’s Body Count – Ideology and Human Suffering Atheism’s Murder Rate: More than 250 Million Dead in the Past Century Excerpt: Rather than providing the utopia of idealism, it has produced a body count second to none. With recent documents uncovered for the Maoist and Stalinist regimes, it now seems the high end of estimates of 250 million dead (between 1900-1987) are closer to the mark. The Stalinist Purges produced 61 million dead and Mao’s Cultural Revolution produced 70 million casualties. These murders are all upon their own people! This number does not include the countless dead in their wars of outward aggression waged in the name of the purity of atheism’s world view. China invades its peaceful, but religious neighbor, Tibet; supports N. Korea in its war against its southern neighbor and in its merciless oppression of its own people; and Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge kill up to 6 million with Chinese support. All of these actions done “in the name of the people” to create a better world. ---- Atheism’s Tendency Towards Totalitarianism Rather Than Freedom What is so strange and odd that in spite of their outward rejection of religion and all its superstitions, they feel compelled to set up cults of personality and worship of the State and its leaders that is so totalitarian that the leaders are not satisfied with mere outward obedience; rather they insist on total mind control and control of thoughts, ideas and beliefs. They institute Gulags and “re-education” centers to indoctrinate anyone who even would dare question any action or declaration of the “Dear Leader.” Even the Spanish Inquisition cannot compare to the ruthlessness and methodical efficiency of these programs conducted on so massive a scale. While proclaiming freedom to the masses, they institute the most methodical efforts to completely eliminate freedom from the people, and they do so all “on behalf” of the proletariat. A completely ordered and totally unfree totalitarian State is routinely set up in place of religion, because it is obviously so profoundly better society. It is also strange that Stalin was a seminarian who rejected Christianity and went on to set up himself as an object of worship. It seems that impulse to religious devotion is present in all, whether that be in traditional forms or secular inventions.,, https://www.scholarscorner.com/atheisms-body-count-ideology-and-human-suffering/
Moreover and to repeat, as an atheist Ed George simply has no moral basis to object to the unmitigated atrocities performed by atheists on their fellow human beings,
While the desire to see justice on this earth is understandable, and the desire laudable, the lack of justice actually points more to the existence of God. Why? Because of our innate sense of injustice when things go wrong. Why in a universe of chance and accident, where morals are the mere fictions of weak willed and weak minded men, deceived by superstitions, should banal ideas of “justice” stand in the way of the success of the Supermen, who possess superior intellect and who are not bound by the trifling morals of lesser men?
Thus Ed George, once again, is found to be severely inconsistent in his reasoning. He wants moral justice for all, yet he rejects Christianity which is the only worldview that has proven itself capable of potentially reaching that perfect moral end. ,,,Just Ask Martin Luther King
"It's Hard to Be a Christian" Author: King, Martin Luther, Jr. Date: February 5, 1956 https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/its-hard-be-christian
bornagain77
January 15, 2020
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PavelU claims that
This upcoming scientific meeting will show how Darwinian macroevolution works:
Yet in the flyer they themselves admitted that,,
"The challenge we now face, which this meeting will address, is to extract mechanistic understanding from the dynamics we measure."
So, far from 'finally' explaining "how Darwinian macroevolution works", they instead honestly admitted that they currently do not have a "mechanistic understanding from the dynamics we measure." In short, they honestly admitted that they have no real clue "how Darwinian macroevolution works." Sure, they have 'hope' that a "mechanistic understanding" might, 'someday', be forthcoming, but excuse me if I, realistically, think that this 'Darwinian hope' that they have in finally achieving a "mechanistic understanding" of biology is severely misplaced: For example,
HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”. And further: “It’s almost as if every mRNA [an intermediate between a gene and a corresponding protein] coming out of the nucleus knows where it’s going” (Travis 2011),,, Further, the billion protein molecules in a cell are virtually all capable of interacting with each other to one degree or another; they are subject to getting misfolded or “all balled up with one another”; they are critically modified through the attachment or detachment of molecular subunits, often in rapid order and with immediate implications for changing function; they can wind up inside large-capacity “transport vehicles” headed in any number of directions; they can be sidetracked by diverse processes of degradation and recycling... and so on without end. Yet the coherence of the whole is maintained. The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2 Genes and Organisms: Improvising the Dance of Life - Stephen L. Talbott - Nov. 10, 2015 Excerpt: The performances of countless cells in your body are redirected and coordinated as part of a global narrative for which no localized controller exists. This redirection and coordination includes a unique choreography of gene expression in each individual cell. Hundreds or thousands of DNA sequences move (or are moved) within vast numbers of cell nuclei, and are subjected to extraordinarily nuanced, locally modulated chemical activity so as to contribute appropriately to bodily requirements that are nowhere codified — least of all in those DNA sequences.,,, DNA in its larger matrix You may recall from my earlier article, “Getting Over the Code Delusion” (Talbott 2010), that packing DNA into a typical cell nucleus is like packing about 24 miles of very thin, double-stranded string into a tennis ball, with the string cut up (in the normal human case) into 46 pieces, corresponding to our 46 chromosomes. To locate a protein-coding gene of typical size within all that DNA is like homing in on a one-half-inch stretch within those 24 miles. Or, rather, two relevant half-inch stretches located on different pieces of string, since we typically have two copies of any given gene. Except that sometimes one copy differs from the other and one version is not supposed to be expressed, or one version needs to be expressed more than the other, or the product of one needs to be modified relative to the other. So part of the job may be to distinguish one of those half-inch stretches from the other. “Decisions” everywhere, it seems. But no such decisions are made in a vacuum. As it happens, the chromosome does not consist of a naked DNA double helix. Our DNA, rather, is bound up with a massive, intricate, and dynamic protein-RNA-small molecule complex (called chromatin) that is as fully “informative” for the cell as the DNA sequence itself — and, you might say, much more active and directive.,,, the cell, by managing the shifting patterns of the chromatin infrastructure within which DNA is embedded, brings our chromosomes into movement on widely varying scales. These include large looping movements that put particular genes into connection with essential regulatory sequences and with other, related genes (that is, with other one-half inch stretches of our “24 miles of string in a tennis ball”).,,, A gene is not in any case the kind of rigidly defined entity one might hope to calculate with. As a functional unit appropriate to current circumstances, it must be cobbled together by the cell according to the needs of the moment. There is no neatly predefined path to follow once the cell has located the “right” half inch or so of string, or once it has done whatever is necessary to bring that locus into proper relation with other chromosomal loci participating in the same “dance”. One issue has to do with the fact that there are two strands in the DNA double helix and, starting from any particular point, it is possible to transcibe either of two DNA sequences in either of two directions: “forward” along one strand, or “backward” along the other. This yields two completely different products. One of them is very likely not even a protein-coding RNA, and yet it may still play a vital role in gene expression and in cellular processes more generally. And even when the cell would proceed in one particular direction, it must “choose” the exact point in the genetic sequence at which to begin. Different starting points can yield functionally distinct results. “Many studies focusing on single genes have shown that the choice of a specific transcription start site has critical roles during development and cell differentiation, and aberrations in . . . transcription start site use lead to various diseases including cancer, neuropsychiatric disorders, and developmental disorders”.8,,, The (protein) enzyme that transcribes DNA into RNA is RNA polymerase12. The enzyme certainly does not work alone, however, and its task is by no means cut-and-dried. To begin with, its critical interactions with various elements of the pre-initiation complex help determine whether and exactly where transcription will begin, if it is to begin at all. Then, after those “decisions” have been made, RNA polymerase moves along the double helix transcribing the sequence of genetic “letters” into the complementary sequence of an RNA. Throughout this productive journey, which is called elongation, the RNA polymerase still keeps good and necessary company. Certain co-activators modify it during its transit of a genetic locus, and these modifications not only enable transcription elongation to begin, but also provide binding sites for yet other proteins that will cooperate throughout the transcription journey.,,, Finally — and mirroring all the possibilities surrounding initiation of gene transcription — there are the issues relating to its termination. Again, they are far too many to mention here. Transcription may conclude at a more or less canonical terminus, or at an alternative terminus, or it may proceed altogether past the gene locus, even to the point of overlapping what, by usual definitions, would be regarded as a separate gene farther “downstream”. The cell has great flexibility in determining what, on any given occasion, counts as a gene, or transcriptional unit. The last part of the transcribed gene is generally non-protein-coding, but nevertheless contains great significance. Examining this region in a single gene, a research team recently identified “at least 35 distinct regulatory elements” to which other molecules can bind.13 Further regulatory potentials arise from yet more binding sites on the customized “tail” that the cell adds to the RNA immediately upon conclusion of its transcription. Proteins and other molecules that bind to the various regulatory elements of the non-protein-coding portion of the transcript do so in a context-sensitive manner, where cell and tissue type, phase of the cell cycle, developmental stage, location of the RNA within the cell, and environmental factors, both intra- and extra-cellular, may all play a role. These converging influences can change the stability of the RNA, change its localization within the cell, and change the efficiency of its translation into protein, among other possibilities.,,, What is generally considered the post-transcriptional modulation of gene expression actually begins during transcription proper. A prime example has to do with what happens partly as a result of the pauses during elongation. Cells don’t just passively accept the RNAs that emerge from the transcription process, but rather “snip and stitch” them via an elaborate procedure known as RNA splicing. It happens that the cutting out and knitting together of selected pieces typically begins before the RNA is fully transcribed, and the rhythm of pauses during elongation has an important influence upon which pieces form the mature transcript. This splicing operation, which is applied to nearly all human RNAs, is performed by the spliceosome, consisting of a few non-protein-coding RNAs and over 300 cooperating proteins, and is hardly less exacting in its requirements than, say, brain surgery. For the vast majority of human genes the operation can be performed in different ways, yielding distinct proteins (called isoforms) from a single RNA derived from a single DNA sequence. This is called alternative splicing, and it would be hard to find anything in human development, disease etiology, or normal functioning that is not dependent in one way or another on the effectiveness of this liberty the cell takes with its gene products. But RNA splicing is hardly the end of it. Through RNA editing the cell can add, delete, or substitute individual “letters” of the RNA sequence.15 Or, leaving the letters in place, the cell can chemically modify them in any of over one hundred different ways.16 ,,, Eventually, a protein-coding RNA needs to be translated into protein. This happens by means of large molecular complexes called “ribosomes”. Just as with gene transcription, there are many associated factors that must work together to bring about the initiation of translation, many that cooperate with the ribosome during translation, and yet others that play a role in modifying, localizing, or otherwise regulating the newly produced protein. The overall picture of gene expression is one of unsurveyable complexity in the service of remarkably effective living processes.,,, A decisive problem for the classical view of DNA is that “as cells differentiate and respond to stimuli in the human body, over one million different proteins are likely to be produced from less than 25,000 genes”.30 Functionally, in other words, you might say that we have over a million genes.,,, http://www.natureinstitute.org/txt/st/org/comm/ar/2015/genes_29.htm
bornagain77
January 15, 2020
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Same sex marriages goes against nature. It goes against evolution. It goes against survival of then fittest. It is deviant and perverse. That is why Acartia Eddie favors it. By enabling deviant, unnatural and perverse lifestyles, we are ruining society. Cause and effectET
January 15, 2020
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Ed the loser:
138 Canadian citizens, landed immigrants, or on student visas.
Reference please. All I can find is 63 Canadians, most of which were Iranians.
So, US citizens who weren’t native to the US are second class citizens.
That doesn't follow from what you are responding to. Clearly YOU really are a piece of...
This OP is about decisions having unintended consequences.
Yes, and obviously you don't know what that means
Are you suggesting that if Trump didn’t kill the Iranian general that Iran still would have shot down the plane?
What does an Iranian general being killed in IRAQ have to do with Iran shooting down a jetliner taking off from its airport? Do tell, or admit that you are just an ignorant piece of....ET
January 15, 2020
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This upcoming scientific meeting will show how Darwinian macroevolution works: https://royalsociety.org/science-events-and-lectures/2020/02/dynamics-biology/PavelU
January 15, 2020
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SA
Many people do not think that things have improved.
Do they have concrete examples? Or is it just the “END IS NIGH” knee jerk reaction to change?
I teach teens and know what they are going through. The article posted indicated that they have several problems that have increased since former times.
Kids today have several challenges that we did not have growing up. The internet, social media, both parents working, alergies, easy access to porn, etc. Dealing with the fact that your friend Johnny has two fathers is minor compared to all the others.
What happens, however, is that people who oppose SSM become stigmatized.
Having your views questioned is not the same as being stigmatized.
They can also be persecuted, denied employment and face legal charges for opposing SSM.
Yes, if their employment involves providing services to the public (eg., county clerk, florist, baker, hotel owner, etc) they can face consequences for denying these services to same sex couples. As they can for denying these services to interracial couples, interfaith couples, people of different race or religion.Ed George
January 14, 2020
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SA
We should have prevented the triggering actions because they are morally wrong and not because we wanted to avoid reactions. But the reactions just help us realize how radical the change is.
So, correct me if I am wrong. Are you suggesting that we should have avoided all efforts to acknowledge and accept homosexuality? We should not have prevented employment or housing discrimination based on homosexuality? We should not have stopped jailing people for homosexuality? Or stopped imposing castration (or chemical castration) for homosexuals?Ed George
January 14, 2020
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EG
But should we have prevented these triggering actions because of 20/20 hind sight on the consequences?
We should have prevented the triggering actions because they are morally wrong and not because we wanted to avoid reactions. But the reactions just help us realize how radical the change is.Silver Asiatic
January 14, 2020
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Joke
It wasn’t filled with Canadians.
138 Canadian citizens, landed immigrants, or on student visas.
And reports have it that most weren’t native to Canada.
So, US citizens who weren’t native to the US are second class citizens. You really are a piece of....
And the cause of it being shot down was pure Iranian ignorance and stupidity.
This OP is about decisions having unintended consequences. Are you suggesting that if Trump didn’t kill the Iranian general that Iran still would have shot down the plane? Why? KF
Folks, this thread is about multiple input, multiple output, structurally changing non-linear systems with feedback and memory, thus the potential for cascading instabilities.
I agree. Who would have predicted that killing an Iranian general could result in the downing of a commercial jet? That seems like the ultimate example of what you are talking about. Or, who could have predicted that the acceptance of SSM would result in ultra right-wing Nazi type crazies targeting LGBTQ people for attacks? Both are the result of unintended consequences. But should we have prevented these triggering actions because of 20/20 hind sight on the consequences? Should we have prevented emancipation because it resulted in the civil war? Should we have prevented the civil rights movement because the subsequent violence.Ed George
January 14, 2020
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KF Agreed. That's why I was trying to point out that radical social changes can disrupt social order and have some terrible reactions that were not anticipated. When I see some young people very happily running towards fascism, knowing that boomers can no longer frighten them with stories about Hitler, then I realize that all of that moral capital of the past has been burned up, and the kids know it. If kids perceive that the adult world has a corrupt moral order then they'll try to overthrow that somehow, no matter how impulsively they do it. Gay marriage is an extremely radical change, for society, in America imposed at the Federal level, and such a thing can cause extreme counter reactions.Silver Asiatic
January 14, 2020
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Econometrics may be a useful start point context for thinking about such systems.kairosfocus
January 14, 2020
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EG I agree. Things have improved greatly since the time I was a teen. But your personal views do not reflect the totality of the population. I was responding to your comment that "the only difference" between pre and post SSM is that there is less stigmatizing, but there are a lot more differences that that. Many people do not think that things have improved.
When I was young, any boy who was slightly effeminate (not actually an indication of homosexuality, but that is a different story), were often bullied and beaten up by other teens. I would rather not go back to those days.
Violence or accepting gay marriage are not the only two options society has to choose from. They're just two extremes.
You give teens no credit for empathy and rationality. In my experience, modern teens are far more mature than I was at that age.
I teach teens and know what they are going through. The article posted indicated that they have several problems that have increased since former times.
Society can no longer jail people for being gay. Society can no longer deny employment to someone for being gay. Society can no longer deny shelter to someone for being gay. Society can no longer persecute someone for being gay. The only downside I see is for people who want to be able to do these sorts of things.
Ok, well at least you recognize that there is a bigger change than merely an elimination of stigma. What happens, however, is that people who oppose SSM become stigmatized. Why should that be ok? They can also be persecuted, denied employment and face legal charges for opposing SSM. You may fully agree with that, but you neglected to say initially that SSM has a big impact on those people. They will be persecuted for what they believe.
As are blacks and Mexicans and muslims and interracial couples. Should we take away their rights because white nationalism is on the rise?
We take away certain rights from people who oppose SSM, so that's what happens. If white nationalism continues to grow and eventually gains political dominance in a culture, then rights for various people will be taken away. Muslim nationalism already takes away rights from gays in some countries. Israel takes away some rights for non-Jews. America could do similar sorts of things, as is now happening against those who oppose SSM for example.
Shouldn’t we be addressing the nut-jobs who blame everyone else for their own failings?
My concern is that we won't make any progress in such matters if, for example, we begin by considering people who disagree with us to be "nut jobs" and also that we misjudge their motives. But just to repeat, more importantly, I was trying to show that you under-represented the overall effect to our society that SSM has. Yes, some people like it. But there's also a negative aspect for many people.Silver Asiatic
January 14, 2020
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Folks, this thread is about multiple input, multiple output, structurally changing non-linear systems with feedback and memory, thus the potential for cascading instabilities. Things where everything affects everything else, with lags marking propagation patterns and raising questions of settling down vs instabilities leading to oscillations and saturations at limits and maybe going over the cliff. . Absent strong stabilising forces, such systems are likely to be fragile, and it is precisely stabilising influences that are being undermined. KF PS: Someone above needs to distinguish mechanical causation and intelligent, significantly free, responsible, morally governed decision.kairosfocus
January 14, 2020
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I could swear that Ed George spends far more time on this website trying to defend homosexuality than he does trying to defend Darwinian evolution. In fact, other than offering lip service, I don't think he has ever offered a robust defense of Darwinian evolution when challenged directly. His repeated refusal to engage with UprightBiped in a forthright manner comes to mind. But regardless of that question, where exactly does Ed George, an anti-Christian, get his morality from? He has rejected God and with that he has rejected objective morality altogether. His Darwinian worldview is completely amoral, even anti-moral. Yet, he wants to 'steal' morality from Christianity and uphold the objective moral principle of tolerance, (about as far as you can be from 'survival of the fittest' morality), in order to try to say that homosexuality is not immoral. Sorry E.G., especially as an atheist, you certainly just don't get to pick and choose which objective moral principles from Christianity that you want to accept and which ones you want to reject. Like Pete Buttigieg , you just don't get to make up your own Christianity:
Pete Buttigieg doesn't get to make up his own Christianity Excerpt: Mr. Buttigieg’s ridicule of the vice president’s religious convictions has persisted, in spite of the fact that Mr. Pence has done nothing but show grace and respect at every turn. “I hold Mayor Buttigieg in the highest personal regard,” said Mr. Pence. “I see him as a dedicated public servant and patriot.” There is no record of Mr. Pence ever insulting Mr. Buttigieg or returning his mockery with similar derision. Mr. Pence has shown remarkable restraint and nothing but civility and a generous spirit of true tolerance. While our vice president may find it politically imprudent to respond to such provocations, some of us see less reason to remain so circumspect. Presumptuous as it might be to offer a response on behalf of our vice president, I am going to venture a try.,,, Mr. Buttigieg, has it ever occurred to you, that the “Mike Pences of the world” don’t have a problem with “who you are,” but rather we just disagree with what you do? We believe human identity is much more than the sum total of someone’s sexual inclinations. In fact, the “creator” whom you so boldly reference makes this pretty clear. There is no place in His entire biblical narrative where He defines us by our desires. All of us, however, are known by our choices. We are made in His image, we have moral awareness and moral culpability. We can and should choose to not do some things we may be inclined to do. God help us if we don’t. One’s appetite for porn, polyamory, and any other heterosexual or homosexual act does not define you. Your decision as to whether or not you satiate such an appetite does. You see, Mr. Mayor, this is a matter of your proclivities, not your personhood. What you don’t seem to understand is that when it comes to your personal peccadillos, most all of the “Mike Pences of the world” really don’t want to know. Your sexual appetites are your business. The thing about obedient and faithful Christians is this; we consider someone else’s private life to be just that — Private. Please stop telling us what kind of sex you like. We don’t want to know. If you want us to stay out of your bedroom, please shut the door. Stop opening it up and forcing us to applaud and celebrate. Before I close, Mr. Buttigieg, I have to point out one more thing. Surely you are aware you just implicitly admitted you agree with all of us “Mike Pences of the world” and you, too, think sexual behavior is, indeed, a moral issue? Otherwise, why include your derogatory remarks about porn stars and those who engage in their services? Why do you disparage them? By your own logic, isn’t “your quarrel, sir, with their creator” and not them? How is it that you blame others for their sexual behavior but you hold yourself guiltless before your own sex tribunal and morality police? Oh, I can hear your reply before you even open your mouth, Mr. Buttigieg. It is as predictable as the sunrise. “You’re missing the point” you say. “This is not about sex. It is about marriage.” Well, aside from the transparent incongruity of this claim, let’s cut to the chase and close with this: What gives you the right to redefine a sacrament of the church? You don’t get to make up your own Christianity. You also don’t get to make up your own Jesus, and in case you missed it, He is explicitly clear on His definition of marriage: “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” No, our quarrel really isn’t with your creator, sir. Our quarrel is with you. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/apr/14/pete-buttigieg-doesnt-get-to-make-up-his-own-chris/
bornagain77
January 14, 2020
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Ed:
A Ukrainian airliner filled with Canadians gets shot down.
It wasn't filled with Canadians. And reports have it that most weren't native to Canada. And the cause of it being shot down was pure Iranian ignorance and stupidity.ET
January 14, 2020
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