DI has just released a video on the ATP Synthase in action (HT: ENV):
[youtube XI8m6o0gXDY]
The blurb at Youtube reads:
ATP Synthase is a molecular machine found in all living organisms. It serves as a miniature power-generator, producing an energy-carrying molecule, adenosine triphosphate, or ATP. The ATP synthase machine has many parts we recognize from human-designed technology, including a rotor, a stator, a camshaft or driveshaft, and other basic components of a rotary engine. This machine is just the final step in a long and complex metabolic pathway involving numerous enzymes and other molecules—all so the cell can produce ATP to power biochemical reactions, and provide energy for other molecular machines in the cell.
{Added, courtesy commenters below, here is another useful animation:}
[youtube H7P4xOUPYVw]
Wiki’s somewhat more schematic GIF animation, will help us see what is going on in each cycle of rotation, a little more closely:
Here, we have an enzyme made of a protein complex of subunits, constituting a rotary machine in the mitochondria of the living cell
. . . and responsible for providing the molecular energy batteries without which life would collapse. And, it is recognisably a motor with a working head on its shaft.
What is the empirically grounded explanation for motors, again?
And, the spontaneous, chance and necessity model for its origin is ________, based on _______ as observational evidence?
Any takers? END
Whether Lab or Cell, (If it’s a molecular machine) It’s Design – Dr. Gauger – podcast
http://intelligentdesign.podom.....3_41-08_00
I was just going to say: ‘Deceptive, eh? Looks as if it had been designed.
I wonder what basis Ritchie has for questioning the reliability of our senses with regard to the natural world, solely with regard to design, the very concept upon which science, EMPIRICAL science, is based.
He should have been an artist Some would say he is, I suppose, of a flim-flam kind. ‘O, that this too too solid flesh would melt, thaw and resolve itself into a dew!’
It’s that magic he yearns for. Not the magic of the supernatural. The kind whereby nothing turns itself into everything. And logic is only binding when you want it to be.
Wikipedia:
It takes energy to make energy! But are we really converting one type of energy to another type of energy?
Wow. One uses a gradient, another creates a gradient. All accidental like. Which came first, the gradient or the membrane?
Gradients (ATP Synthases)
Cellular Respiration (Electron Transport Chain)
How many different types of energy are involved here!?
Rotational energy:
ATP synthase structure and mechanism
And it works in reverse!
This is stunning Intelligent Design, Eric!
😉
ATP Synthase (FoF1-complex) Home
ATP synthase is a huge molecular complex
http://enzyme.expasy.org/EC/3.6.3.14
mah
Why is it assumed that this enzyme evolved? Are we not often reminded that evolutionary theory is supposedly separate from OOL? I gather that all ubiquitous proteins and systems “occurred early in evolutionary history.”
Here is one of my favorites for ATP Synthase, and still one of the best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7P4xOUPYVw
Mung, thanks for the Gradients (ATP Synthases) link; it’s also a goody. BTW, your “ATP synthase structure and mechanism” link is broken.
To note, with ATP Synthase, proton energy is used to convert mechanical energy into the chemical energy stored in ATP. This process can also run in reverse, hydrolyzing ATP to charge the proton gradient, if the concentration of ATP is high and the proton gradient low, as this video explains.
Of course, this motor bears no resemblance to human design, because we know that God simply does not design things that way, because, he doesn’t.
Oops, wrong thread.
From Gradients (ATP Synthases):
Is this because it provides a selective advantage? Of course, biological systems in which a gradient is always maintained have a definite reproductive advantage, I suppose.
Yet another example that highlights the absurdity of blind, unguided and purposeless goo to you by way of the zoo fairy tale theory of neo Darwinian!!
Intelligent Design is science and NDE is a myth .
A few notes: ATP synthase also lays at the heart of photosynthesis:
And we now have evidence for photosynthetic life suddenly appearing on earth, as soon as water appeared on the earth, in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth.
Moreover there is no evidence of prebiotic chemical signatures
And although the specifications of ATP synthase are enough to make any engineer worth his salt drool, and are surely indicative of vastly superior design, I would like focus in on photosynthesis itself.
In what I find to be a absolutely fascinating discovery, it is found that photosynthetic life, which is an absolutely vital link that all higher life on earth is dependent on for food, uses ‘non-local’ quantum mechanical principles to accomplish photosynthesis:
Yet to explain quantum correlations, one must appeal to a beyond space and time cause:
And since all higher life forms on earth are ultimately dependent of photosynthesis in order to receive their food, the implications should be obvious:
But to further solidify the inference for a beyond space and time cause for photosynthesis, it would be worthwhile to reflect on light itself for a moment.,, Time, as we understand it temporally, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.
That is to say, traveling at the speed of light will only get us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, ‘past and future folding into now’, framework of time. This higher dimension, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light.
As well, Please note the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light(Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.)
As well, it is very curious to note that it takes a infinite amount of information to give a complete description of a photon:
The following experiment actually showed that information can be encoded into a photon while it is in its quantum wave state,
Now, I find the preceding to be absolutely fascinating! Light is found, in our experiments for special relativity, to be ‘eternal’. As well, a photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its ‘infinite dimensional’ state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus ‘non-locally’, to just a ‘1 or 0’ state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Moreover, consciousness is found to precede the collapse of the wavefunction of the photon to its particle state. Moreover, a non-local, beyond space and time, cause is needed to explain the ‘harvesting of energy’ in photosynthesis. Energy that all other complex biological life on earth is ultimately dependent on. Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, “Exactly what ’cause’ has been postulated throughout history to be completely independent of any space-time constraints (eternal), as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon and in the non-local quantum coherence of photosynthesis???
,,,In my personal opinion, even though this is not hashed out in exhaustive detail yet, and regardless of what atheists may think, all this evidence is about as sweet as it can get in experimental science as to providing empirical proof that Almighty God created, and sustains, this universe and all life in it.,,,
Further notes:
As well, it is found that light is extremely fine tuned to the atmosphere, to biological molecules and to water, for life to exist:
Visible light is incredibly fine-tuned for life to exist. Though visible light is only a tiny fraction of the total electromagnetic spectrum coming from the sun, it happens to be the “most permitted” portion of the sun’s spectrum allowed to filter through the our atmosphere. All the other bands of electromagnetic radiation, directly surrounding visible light, happen to be harmful to organic molecules, and are almost completely absorbed by the atmosphere. The tiny amount of harmful UV radiation, which is not visible light, allowed to filter through the atmosphere is needed to keep various populations of single cell bacteria from over-populating the world (Ross; reasons.org). The size of light’s wavelengths and the constraints on the size allowable for the protein molecules of organic life, also seem to be tailor-made for each other. This “tailor-made fit” allows photosynthesis, the miracle of sight, and many other things that are necessary for human life. These specific frequencies of light (that enable plants to manufacture food and astronomers to observe the cosmos) represent less than 1 trillionth of a trillionth (10^-24) of the universe’s entire range of electromagnetic emissions. Like water, visible light also appears to be of optimal biological utility (M.Denton; W.Bradley; G.Gonzalez; J.Richards).
Further fine tuning of light is discussed in the following videos and podcast:
ATP synthase structure and mechanism
What does it mean to say that there is energy stored in a proton gradient?
lol chance.
seems your favorite is the same as my broken link. =p
So maybe I am using the wrong metaphor, but so far it seems appropriate to me.
Say there is a waterfall. A gradient. Some Intelligent Designer comes along and builds a water wheel. Now we have “rotational energy.” (Is that essentially the same as mechanical energy?)
And then we convert that energy into something else, maybe another “form” of energy.
Where’s the initial energy? We don’t call it “water energy” do we? Or a “water gradient.” In what sense is energy stored in protons?
How in the world could natural processes have “discovered” by trial and error that a proton gradient could be turned into another useful form of energy?
For cells that lack mitochondria, where is the proton gradient created?
Hehe. I imagine many of us have that one in our list. 😉
Mung,
Yes, I believe so.
It’s stored in the gradient itself, which is defined as a higher concentration of protons on one side of a membrane than the other. I’m picturing two air tanks, one pressurized and the other not, both connected together. The transfer of air from one to the other could be harnessed and converted to mechanical energy. From there converting to other forms would be straightforward.
I think your water wheel is an appropriate metaphor. In order to keep it running, some process needs to bring water from the bottom back to the top. This is apparently what occurs in biological systems. See the quote I provided from your video at #8, which occurs around the three minute mark.
This video might provide some insights, but I haven’t had a chance to watch it yet.
I take it that “natural selection” is not a sufficient explanation for you then. In fact, to me it doesn’t seem necessary nor does it seem sufficient for the generation of biological novelty.
BA77@10, thanks for the links. I’ll spend some time with them when I get the chance. 🙂
BA posted this inaccuracy:
Not on this planet it isn’t. Photosynthesis is impossible in the abyssal hot smoker ecologies. Not so absolutely vital for “higher life”, apparently.
BA77’s video link from #10 is a good one, and explains how the proton gradient is maintained in the context of photosynthesis system.
Yes, my grandfather repaired antique clocks of which I still have a couple that are weight driven. Much the same concepts I think. We’re not talking about energy in the matter that makes up the weight as being what provides the energy needed by the clock. It’s not “metal energy” or even “stone energy.”
Once the weight reaches the base of the clock it has to be wound to bring the weight back up.
I would think that in order for there to be a proton gradient the protons can’t be allowed to just diffuse through the membrane.
So at a minimum we need the conditions for a proton gradient and then the means to make use of it.
Cells just got lucky in the makeup of their membranes? Cells that had a membrane that could allow for a proton gradient were more likely to replicate than those that didn’t? Assuming they could replicate at all without ATP.
I guess it’s possible that there is diffusion but that it’s finely tuned in some way to allow for a gradient. But what are the odds of that? 😉
Proton Pump
So it all comes back to the cell membrane, my favorite topic, haha. Imagine that.
Solute Movement
NDSU Virtual Cell Animation Collection
HT: ba77
Thanks for that. I was just looking at the NDSU channel on Youtube. Particularly, the video for the lac operon in E. coli, which codes for three proteins, one of which, permease, is specifically purposed for binding to the membrane and aiding the importation of lactose.
It’s really quite remarkable. The expression of the lac operon is inducible by the presence of lactose, which can, in small quantities, enter the cell and bind to a repressor protein on the lac operon, triggering gene expression and the production of the proteins responsible for processing lactose, including the permease, which imports the lactose into the membrane.
It’s a signalling mechanism, in which the substance to be processed becomes a chemical trigger for the expression of genes which code for the proteins that import and process the lactose.
That’s evolution. It’s synonymous with magic. Of course, one must be able to imagine that there existed simpler structures which could also replicate, right on down to some enigmatic and indiscernible self-organization principle. In other words, we know evolution occurred, so we just need to discover the way in which it was brought about through unguided processes. Science is working on it. Much research is being done. :p
If permease is any indication, the function of the membrane to regulate materials transport is highly dependent on enzymes which perform the task. This would also implicate signalling mechanisms for gene expression. Imagining some simple membrane enclosing some RNAs doesn’t even qualify as good imaginative fiction.
Heh. Solute Movement:
Not even good imaginative science fiction?
Lol. Especially not. Not when the real story is so
xxxxutterly remarkable.Truth is stranger than … evolution.
Thanks for those links Mung: Proton Pump, Permeability Barrier, and Solute Movement.
Permeability Barrier:
The transport proteins use the energy from ATP hydrolysis to power their activity.
From Proton Pump:
So the proton pumps push the protons back across the membrane, to maintain the gradient. I’m not yet sure what powers the pumps. I wonder if it’s ATP.
Folks: Interesting onward comments and a useful vid. I wonder what Darwin et al would have made of the discovery of a rechargeable battery molecule in the heart of a lot of cell based life manufactured using an enzyme that is to all intents and purposes a complex reversible, electric motor driven rotary process unit. KF
The second animation has been added to the OP, thanks. KF
KF, yes, well worth adding that one.
Of course, Darwin, et al, could not have imagined the technological sophistication of this protoplasm. There is simply no reason to ascribe creative power to a putative “selective” force when that which needs to be explained, a massively complex system capable of replication with variation, must by necessity precede it.
Chance Ratcliff posted this:
What is your explanation for the “massively complex system”?
Chance:
I think it depends on the pump.
Wikipedia:
Oh, and lest we forget. The membrane is also impermeable to ATP. So if we’re talking mitochondria, there has to be a channel to get the ATP out of the mitochondrion.
Mung,
On further reflection this makes perfect sense. It couldn’t be the case that every mechanism for charging the gradient uses ATP. However I’m reminded that ATP synthase is itself a proton pump that runs on ATP (it’s dual purposed).
Isn’t evolution grand?
KF, with regard to my comment at #27, I will try to be more aware to your sensitivities when I post on your threads in the future. It was not my intention to be disrespectful.
Might I ask however that you revise your edit to the contents in such a way as to avoid doing violence to the meaning of it? Allow me to make the following suggestion:
CR: Pardon, note adjustment. The problem is not merely sensibilities, if we leave known broken windows lying around here at UD — on track record — it invites vandals who hardly need an excuse to carry on in ways that have to be seen to be believed then demand to know why you object to their behaviour when you tolerate XXXXXXXXX when s/he falls off the wagon. KF
KF, thanks much. Understood.
ATP Synthase Gradient: The Movie
ATP Synthase – RCSB PDB-101
ATP Synthase
There is an entire family of the things!
The ATPase Family
And of course, this gets us back to the subject of Hydrogen and thence to Fine-Tuning of the Cosmos for Life.
A teleological idea. 🙂
What a great read. More quotes:
Each motor is also a generator, and so each part plays its role depending upon the context: generating ATP or pumping ions back across the membrane.
If ATP and thus ATP synthase is required for all major cellular processes to run, hence replication, then by necessity, this enzyme antedates Darwinian evolution. This means we need a non-Darwinian process capable of building such motors to explain this in a materialistic framework. However we’re told that it’s the very power of Darwinian evolution which explains the building such structures. If non-Darwinian processes can build them, then Darwinian processes are superfluous, are they not? Shouldn’t Occam’s razor apply here?
This seems fundamentally perplexing. We find, if naturalism is true, that there is a non-Darwinian process for generating biological nanotechnology. Why is Darwinian evolution required in order to do the same? Are there indeed twin forces, unrelated, neither elucidated, which perform the same or similar tasks of protein engineering?
Can someone disabuse me of my confusion?
But doesn’t that demonstrate that they are all related in evolutionary history, hence evolution is true? What other unguided options exist???
Ah yes, the unguided miracle!
Now if that doesn’t require a leap of wishful thinking I don’t know what does.
So many AAA ATPases
Will it never end!?!?
Folks:
There is the usual just so first there was something else then there was a cobbling together story:
What is going on yet again, is the imposition of the a priori evolutionary materialist framework. On that f/w, the gaps are filled with vague just so narratives and promissory notes, “good enough” to keep going on the presumed credit in the system as a whole. Lewontinian a priori materialism, anyone?
To which I say, a system based on a towering pile of IOU’s leading a boom is building up to a bust!
Let’s not forget Menuge’s challenges C1 – 5 for origin of any IC system (presented for the flagellum but applicable far more broadly) and what this implies about such lash-up narratives:
Until we see these five criteria addressed on empirical evidence, we should not take the credit of such IOU’s at all, as in rubbery documents tend to bounce.
KF
Yup. If we just take this subunit here, and this one here, and this one here, and jostle them about vigorously, voila!
ATP Synthase!
And the science that backs up this wild speculation is…?
So we have this motor part here, and it was managing quite fine without this stator, and we have this cell here, and it was managing just fine without the ATP generated by an as yet non-existence ATP Synthase, and we have this membrane here, and this proton gradient…
I can no longer say evolutionists believe in magic. Even magic has a magician.
We find similar parts in other machines.
That would make a good tagline.
And there is more:
They forget to mention how evolutiondidit. =P
CR: The key issues are in the C1 – 5 factors. Adapting things from one purpose to another is not a simple business, especially in a context of automated self assembly. KF
Bioenergetic Processes of Cyanobacteria
Check out Chapter 10.
ATP Synthase: Structure, Function and Regulation of a Complex Machine
An entire chapter. 🙂
ATP Synthase heaven!