BA77’s Off Topic Thread, Volume 5 — Aerobatic Ballet, what ID has done for me, Cyd Charisse, Tango jealousy, Butterfly

_{Salvador Cordova

July 21, 2014

Off Topic}

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This is a thread for UD commenters to speak their mind. Please keep it civil.

Off topic #1
If I could be a ballet dancer, I’d be this man:

[youtube VQKfvwoKc6w]

Off topic #2
It’s no secret I’m rather chummy with agnostics, atheists, free-thinkers and academics, and even some of the less reputable elements of society (professional gamblers). My love of the arts and drama often touches on realms the church sometimes frowns on. The irony is I’m a right wing conservative young earth creationist. Why is this so?

First I wasn’t always a YEC. I was raised in a Roman Catholic home, my lifestyle was worldly and I found church often boring and suffocating, and this persisted to some extent even after I became a Protestant.

I found more solace in music, the performing arts, drama and science than I did from the majority of sermons (often more like nagging and bullying sessions). There are very few pastors I can say that I look forward to listening to on Sunday morning…

Many of my mentors were Darwinists (the physicists, engineers, mathematicians, chemists) in academia and to this day I look at their intellectual accomplishments with awe.

For a season in my life, the home TV would be tuned into a mix of NFL Football, figure skating and classical music concerts. More recently, I’ve watched the history channel and all the retelling of great battles of the past.

I used to enjoy the thrill of flying airplanes. Flying upside down and going weightless and then getting squashed into my seat in a high G maneuver. I loved hang gliding until I broke my arm in a crash in Carolina and was hauled off in an ambulance. But even then, to me, that was living life….and I often confess these things were often more enjoyable than much of the church service experience.

Added to that, I’ve often been utterly disappointed in behavior of the clergy and laity. I’ve endured seeing pastor after pastor fall from grace — adulterous affairs, theft and abuse of donations, lies, family abuse, outright charlatanry, etc.

Some years ago Bill Gothard used to be widely praised in evangelical circles. I always suspected he was a rat. Now it turns out, he used to send his young staff to his brother Steve at an expensive resort built on charitable donations. The resort had an airport and was used for a Leer jet paid by for by charitable donations as well. Steve Gothard basically made sex slaves of the girls that his brother Bill sent his way. Bill didn’t stop the abuse of women despite knowing about it, and by all measures looked like a willing accomplice. Bill was noted for promoting the notion of obedience to leaders. He and brother Steve obviously used their teachings for their own ends. See what has been swept under the carpet by the Evangelical Community:
Gotherd 1980’s Scandal

I’ve hung around atheist circles because vicariously they express my frustrations with my own church family — the bad behavior, lack of critical thinking, often blind uninformed obedience…

What has kept me believing, and why have I stayed in the church? 2 reasons. Number 1: atheism and agnosticism offers no genuine hope of eternal life or an eternally better world. My favorite Agnostic/Atheist Bertrand Russell ironically gave me reason to search for answers outside of agnosticism and atheism:

Such, in outline, but even more purposeless, more void of meaning, is the world which Science presents for our belief. Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins — all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand.

No matter how much science and technology there is, it will be destroyed as the universe dies out….

Sometimes in the midst of anxiety over the world’s troubles, I find it natural to call out for God’s help in prayer, and when there are moments that I feel I’ve caught a break in life I didn’t deserve, I can’t help but offer thanks. I think I have indeed seen miracles.

Number 2, the circumstantial evidence points to the historical claims of the Bible as more authentic than it is given credit for — the major points: creation of life, Noah’s flood, resurrection of Jesus. And if these things are historically true, it is reasonable they are also theologically true.

For sure, there are formal uncertainties in the proof of beliefs we hold dear. Could there be no God and is the multiverse the answer to problem of OOL? My reply — is it rational to wager one’s soul on the idea of multiverse? In light of what little evidences we have in hand for certain beliefs but in view of the potential payoffs, Pascal was most certainly right in his wager.

Despite my frustration with the church and despite my obviously being enamored with the compelling beauty and drama in a world that is passing away, it seems obvious there is design in the universe by some Intelligence far beyond human comprehension, and Intelligence capable of observing and knowing details of every molecule in the universe….

I’ve embraced Christianity reluctantly after nearly leaving it many years ago. Darwinists have actually strengthened my convictions after many years of debating them. In a strange sort of way, I thank God for them because they have helped me critically examine the case for ID and creation, and as a result, I’m more convinced now of God’s design and miraculous work than ever.

I still have attachment to the material world and all its passing beauty and drama and the illusion that all is well and will evolve to a better state. I’ve always been tempted to leave the church and just try to live it up, but I know utopia cannot be found in this life, and the longing to return to the Garden of Eden through human means cannot be met…

The evil in the world is sobering, but ID has been a source of hope that the can be ultimate meaning after all.

What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

Apostle Paul

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Off Topic #3

Cyd Charisse is a miracle. She was crippled by polio when young, but you can see for yourself how she turned out. As far as I can tell, relative to Hollywood culture, she lived a clean life and was a life-long practicing Methodist (she probably couldn’t have been a Baptist given the prohibitions against dancing). She is a work of art!

[youtube wDHwJrbrp0Y]

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Off topic #4

I normally don’t like Tango music, but here is the best Tango, “Tango Tzigane” aka “Tango Jealousy”. It is an incredible mix of Argentine Tango form composed by Danish violinist Jacob Gade during the roaring 1920’s for virtuoso classical violin. The composition conveys so well the mood of the roaring 20’s almost utopian view of the world. He became rich on that one composition and retired.

[youtube KXObdWBr7os]
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Off Topic #5 rated PG-13, maybe R.

The winner of supposedly family friendly “Ukraine’s got talent” was pole dancer Anastasia Sokolova. 😯 You can google here “Ukraine’s got talent” performance. I found Sokolova’s performance while googling “acrobatic dance”.

Pole dancing is generally lewd, Jenyne Butterfly (who performed on the Ellen DeGeneres show) and Anastasia Sokolova (performed on “Ukraine’s got talent”) added some class to this dance form (still a tad lewd, but wow,the athletic ability of Sokolova and Butterfly is incredible). Most of the screaming cheers for Jenyne Buttefly were coming from women! Jenyne almost defies gravity!

I won’t link to their performances (it’s probably PG-13 or R rated), but I will link to this acrobatic dance routine from “Ukraine’s got Talent”:
[youtube l9ihPrEbI8Y]

Off Topic #6
And not to be out done, the 5 most shocking from Britain’s Got Talent:
[youtube iNGS9lF1a54]

Comments

OT Molecular Basis for Coordinating Transcription Termination with Noncoding RNA Degradation DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.molcel.2014.05.031 The Nrd1-Nab3-Sen1 (NNS) complex is essential for controlling pervasive transcription and generating sn/snoRNAs in S. cerevisiae. The NNS complex terminates transcription of noncoding RNA genes and promotes exosome-dependent processing/degradation of the released transcripts. The Trf4-Air2-Mtr4 (TRAMP) complex polyadenylates NNS target RNAs and favors their degradation. NNS-dependent termination and degradation are coupled, but the mechanism underlying this coupling remains enigmatic. Here we provide structural and functional evidence demonstrating that the same domain of Nrd1p interacts with RNA polymerase II and Trf4p in a mutually exclusive manner, thus defining two alternative forms of the NNS complex, one involved in termination and the other in degradation. We show that the Nrd1-Trf4 interaction is required for optimal exosome activity in vivo and for the stimulation of polyadenylation of NNS targets by TRAMP in vitro. We propose that transcription termination and RNA degradation are coordinated by switching between two alternative partners of the NNS complex. http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/abstract/S1097-2765(14)00532-2?elsca1=etoc&elsca2=email&elsca3=1097-2765_20140807_55_3_&elsca4=Cell%20PressDionisio_{August 8, 2014
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OT Noncoding Transcription by Alternative RNA Polymerases Dynamically Regulates an Auxin-Driven Chromatin Loop DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.molcel.2014.06.011 The eukaryotic epigenome is shaped by the genome topology in three-dimensional space. Dynamic reversible variations in this epigenome structure directly influence the transcriptional responses to developmental cues. Here, we show that the Arabidopsis long intergenic noncoding RNA (lincRNA) APOLO is transcribed by RNA polymerases II and V in response to auxin, a phytohormone controlling numerous facets of plant development. This dual APOLO transcription regulates the formation of a chromatin loop encompassing the promoter of its neighboring gene PID, a key regulator of polar auxin transport. Altering APOLO expression affects chromatin loop formation, whereas RNA-dependent DNA methylation, active DNA demethylation, and Polycomb complexes control loop dynamics. This dynamic chromatin topology determines PID expression patterns. Hence, the dual transcription of a lincRNA influences local chromatin topology and directs dynamic auxin-controlled developmental outputs on neighboring genes. This mechanism likely underscores the adaptive success of plants in diverse environments and may be widespread in eukaryotes. http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/abstract/S1097-2765(14)00493-6?elsca1=etoc&elsca2=email&elsca3=1097-2765_20140807_55_3_&elsca4=Cell%20PressDionisio_{August 8, 2014
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OT A Long Noncoding RNA Transcriptional Regulatory Circuit Drives Thermogenic Adipocyte Differentiation DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.molcel.2014.06.004 Brown and beige/brite fats generate heat via uncoupled respiration to defend against cold. The total mass and activity of thermogenic adipose tissues are also tightly linked to systemic energy and nutrient homeostasis. Despite originating from distinct progenitors, brown and beige adipocytes acquire remarkably similar molecular and metabolic characteristics during differentiation through the action of a network of transcription factors and cofactors. How this regulatory network interfaces with long noncoding RNAs (lncRNAs), an emerging class of developmental regulators, remains largely unexplored. Here, we globally profiled lncRNA gene expression during thermogenic adipocyte formation and identified Brown fat lncRNA 1 (Blnc1) as a nuclear lncRNA that promotes brown and beige adipocyte differentiation and function. Blnc1 forms a ribonucleoprotein complex with transcription factor EBF2 to stimulate the thermogenic gene program. Further, Blnc1 itself is a target of EBF2, thereby forming a feedforward regulatory loop to drive adipogenesis toward thermogenic phenotype. http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/abstract/S1097-2765(14)00486-9?elsca1=etoc&elsca2=email&elsca3=1097-2765_20140807_55_3_&elsca4=Cell%20PressDionisio_{August 8, 2014
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What is so special about the human brain? I may not agree with all that was said in this presentation, but thought it was kind of interesting anyway. http://www.ted.com/talks/suzana_herculano_houzel_what_is_so_special_about_the_human_brain/transcriptDionisio_{August 3, 2014
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In response to the question, "What is energy?" Manfred Eigen answers that we don't know. (See my post @ 36.) In the next section he takes up the question, What is Mass? And guess what? (see also my post @ 55.
Because this correspondence between mass and energy is reciprocal, i.e., each bit of energy is equivalent to a certain amount of mass, the conservation law applies to mass-energy, rather than to energy or mass alone. - p. 8
then:
What about the question in the title of this section? Is mass just some condensed form of energy? This certainly is an important insight, but not an answer to the question which would become identical with that asked in the first section. Obviously, the phrase "what is" makes little sense as long as we are dealing with first principles or elementary, i.e. non-derivable, properties. On the other hand, the question "What is entropy?" has a clear answer, since entropy is a quantity that is based on a definition, both in phenomenological and in statistical terms (see Chapter 2). Nevertheless, most people feel far more comfortable dealing with energy than with entropy. - p. 20
I get the sense we no more know what mass is than we know what energy is. This sense is only strengthened upon reading how Eigen closes out this section:
Our mind does not inherit any a priori knowledge. It has to adapt to experience and observation, which are consciously reflected and embodied into a consistent scheme. Talking about what we observe and experience is helpful in creating "understanding". It reminds me of a critical remark made by Bertrand Russell in his foreward to Ludwig Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, which concludes with the categorical statement: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." Russell's plain reaction to this conclusion was: "What causes hesitation is the fact that, after all, Mr Wittgenstein manages to say a good deal about what cannot be said."
As a final remark, one can only hope that his belief that "Our mind does not inherit any a priori knowledge," was not known to him a priori.Mung_{August 2, 2014
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lncRNAs Demonstrate Protein Coding Functions
Researchers from the Case Western Reserve School of Medicine say they have not only identified thousands of novel long noncoding ribonucleic acid (lncRNA) transcripts but also discovered that, contrary to popular belief, some of them actually do direct the synthesis of proteins in cells. They published their study (“Translation of Small Open Reading Frames within Unannotated RNA Transcripts in Saccharomyces cerevisiae”) in Cell Reports. Previously, lncRNAs were thought to lack the information and capacity to encode for proteins, distinguishing them from the messenger RNAs that are expressed from known genes and act primarily as templates for the synthesis of proteins. Yet this team demonstrated that a subset of these lncRNAs is engaged by the translation machinery and can function to produce protein products. Read more on this here: http://www.genengnews.com/keywordsandtools/print/4/35277/
BTW, should we alert News about the above highlighted expressions that could be considered for trademarking too ? ;-) contrary to popular belief, [...] Previously, [...] were thought to [...]Dionisio_{August 2, 2014
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Long Noncoding RNA Regulating Apoptosis Discovered This RNA molecule known as INXS, doesn't seem to contain instructions for the production of a protein, but modulates the action of an important gene that impacts apoptosis. IOW, it plays a regulatory role. See more on this here: http://www.genengnews.com/keywordsandtools/print/4/35591/Dionisio_{August 2, 2014
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Speaking of the Higgs boson:
Excitingly, the Higgs boson was observed experimentally just as this book was in press. Even though it may not tell us what mass "is", it may tell us in more detail "how" mass is related to energy. - Manfred Eigen
What's a materialist to think?Mung_{August 1, 2014
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Peter . . . rock. The name “Peter” is a play on the Greek word for “rock” (petra). There are four leading interpretations of this play on words: (a) Peter’s confession that Jesus is “the Christ” (v. 16) is the rock upon which the church is built; (b) Jesus Himself is the rock, as Peter later testifies (1 Pet. 2:5–8); (c) Peter, as the representative apostle, is a foundation in the church (Eph. 2:20); (d) Peter represents by his confession the type of person on which the true church will be built. The first and second possibilities are often defended by pointing out that Peter’s name is petros and the rock is petra. But this linguistic difference is not significant for this context. The second possibility is unlikely because Jesus describes Himself in this passage as not the foundation but the builder of the church. If it had not been for the abuse of this passage by the Roman Catholic Church, it is unlikely that any doubt would have arisen that the reference is to Peter. But the foundational rock is Peter as a representative apostle (v. 15) whose confession of Christ has been revealed to him by the Father. As Peter himself later declares (1 Pet. 2:4–8), all believers have become “living stones” by virtue of their association with Christ, with the apostles as the foundation (Eph. 2:20, 21; Rev. 21:14). When Peter says that Jesus must not go to the cross, he is not called a foundation rock, but a stumbling block (v. 23). gates of hell. In the Old Testament and other literature the “gates of Sheol” or the “gates of death” are equivalent to “death.” “The gates of hell” may also be a reference to “death.” [Reformation Study Bible by Ligonier Ministries]Dionisio_{August 1, 2014
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Follow-up to #49 flesh . . . has not revealed this. Recognition of who Jesus is must come from God.Dionisio_{August 1, 2014
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Follow-up to #49 [Reformation Study Bible by Ligonier Ministries] the Son of the living God. The meaning of the title “Son of God” is different from that of pagan literature. In the Old Testament, the anointed king was called a “son” of God (2 Sam. 7:14; Ps. 2:7). Israel as a whole is also God’s “son” (Ex. 4:22), and Jesus fulfills this status of Israel (2:15). As applied to Jesus, the title reflects Jesus’ unique relation to the Father (11:27; 21:38). He is acknowledged by the Father as “my beloved Son” (3:17; 17:5). Peter’s understanding was given to him from above, going beyond what he could have discerned on his own.Dionisio_{August 1, 2014
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Follow-up to #49 anointed. Numerous objects and persons were subject to religious anointing in ancient Israel (Ex. 30:22–33), but it was the king ultimately who had the title of the “Lord’s anointed” or simply “the anointed.” Persons chosen for divine service were anointed to signify that this was their calling, that they were authorized to perform it, and that God would give them the help they needed. References to the king as the Lord’s anointed are prevalent in the books of Samuel (v. 35; 12:3, 5; 16:6; 24:6) and Psalms (Ps. 2:2; 18:50). The present passage is the first reference to a king of Israel as God’s “anointed,” though the idea of anointing a king is found already in Jotham’s fable (Judg. 9:8, 15). The English word “messiah” represents the Hebrew word meaning “anointed.” In the New Testament, “Christ” represents the Greek word Christos, also meaning “anointed.”Dionisio_{August 1, 2014
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Axel, Thank you for sharing that interesting information.Dionisio_{August 1, 2014
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OT Matthew 16:13-20
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.
[Reformation Study Bible by Ligonier Ministries] Caesarea Philippi. A small town at the foot of Mount Hermon, about twenty-five miles north of Galilee. who do you say that I am. The “you” is plural; Peter answers on behalf of the Twelve. Christ. Peter declares that Jesus is the Messiah and King prophesied in the Old Testament Christ. This title comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning “anointed.” “Messiah” represents the Hebrew word for “anointed”; 1 Samuel 2:10 (ESV)
The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; against them He will thunder in heaven. The Lord will judge the ends of the earth; He will give strength to His king and exalt the horn of His anointed.”
In the Old Testament, anointing with oil could be performed for the office of prophet, priest, or king (Ex. 29:7; 1 Sam. 16:13; 1 Kin. 19:16). The Old Testament promises the coming of the righteous Servant of the Lord (Is. 42:1–9), who will be a prophet like Moses (Deut. 18:18, 19), a priest like Melchizedek (Ps. 110:4), and a king like David, the Lord’s anointed (Is. 55:3–5; Jer. 30:9; Ezek. 34:24; Hos. 3:5; Zech. 12:8). Matthew reveals that Jesus is the Christ, the promised King and Deliverer.Dionisio_{August 1, 2014
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Dionisio, I believe you are based in the US, but there was a wonderful TV documentary, here, in the UK, on the subject of the Polish pilots based here, during WWII. Apparently their record of 'kills' was absolutely phenomenal. Very courageous and, of course, highly motivated. They just flew straight at the German planes. Straight at them. Nor did they wait for orders, when when they heard the sound of enemy planes, but raced of to their planes to see them off. That motivation also made them the perfect match for the task of finishing off the capture of Monte Cassino, defeating and capturing the remaining German paras. It was a very dangerous job. I once got into conversation with an elderly Polish cafe-proprietor in Reading, and he told me he used to listen to what the returning pilots were saying in the canteen about the quirks of the particular aircraft they'd been flying, and he said it saved his life on more than one occasion, as they could be called upon to fly different types of planes that they'd never flown before. I expect your familiar with Private Voytek, the Polish bear extraordinaire? https://www.google.co.uk/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=WxzcU-qACMLH8gf_74KgCA&gws_rd=ssl#q=polish+army+bear+ww2Axel_{August 1, 2014
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70th anniversary: WWII - 1st Aug. 1944 : Following the sustained attack by the Red Army on German Nazi troops the Polish Home army begin the battle to liberate Warsaw from German control. The home army had been fighting the German invasion as an underground movement up to this day, but with the German troops already reeling from Russian attacks the Poles came out into the open to regain control for their beloved country.Dionisio_{August 1, 2014
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How about that, esteemed Mung!Axel_{August 1, 2014
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Salvatore, don't take it personally. You've probably been to more parties in a month than Ive ever been to, but in any case, it was intended as a metaphor. StephenB, your #12 'If we are all members of the body of Christ, death does not separate us.' 'I am the resurrection and the life; He who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.' Here, I believe Jesus first referred to our physical death, and then pointed out, that our spirit is unaffected by it - just as attested by people who have suffered an NDE. You know.. It was a while before they realised they had 'died', and weren't too unhappy about it, since they usually felt no pain, but, rather, a great feeling of love and happiness. It baffled me for a long time. It seems that Jesus didn't always want to make it easy for us to understand his words. In his Gospel teachings, he was not presenting us with a kind of washing-machine manual, but, rather wanted us to understand that there was worldly wisdom that was 'easy meat' for the analytical intelligence to understand, and could be expressed with crystal clarity*; and then there was the spiritual wisdom he was intent on imparting, which was another kettle of fish, since it CHALLENGES us. We must WANT to understand it with all our heart. It's not of ordinary importance. When he spoke about eating his body and blood, and some of his followers left him from then on, he had challenged the strength and commitment, of their faith in him. Those followers of his who remained, one would imagine, must have been just as baffled as to what he was talking about, but they had the faith to 'stick around' and try to find out what he did mean.Axel_{August 1, 2014
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The Kingdom of God is a Party: God's Radical Plan for His FamilyMung_{August 1, 2014
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Of course, if you prefer to view your God as a stern, autocratic monolith... well, ain't nobody kin stop yer. But I prefer a rough-house! A party kind of God.Axel_{August 1, 2014
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Wonderful to see this discussion you've generated, Salvatore. I'm not sure any of you really get it. It's all about family. Above all, the frail, passible, human family of Jesus, Mary and Joseph, and those dreadful adopted kids, mankind. Think of the suffering Mary must have undergone, above all, during Jesus' Passion and at the foot of the cross. The human bond with one's mother is very strong and important, and I suspect that the telepathic bond between Jesus and Mary all their lives would have been particularly strong, because they were so spiritual. So, the idea that God would want us to rather discount her importance in his providential dispensation, as if she were little more than a 'broodmare', is unthinkable. 'All generations will call me blessed.' When was the last time you all called her blessed? On the contrary, I absolutely believe the little rosary meditation concerning her coronation in heaven, evoking the absolute joy and jubilation of the very angels in heaven when she was crowned there. All her internalised glory, externalised and transfigured to reflect the reality of her stature. She must be a sight of stunning beauty. 'Who is she that cometh forth, as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army in battle array.' Having grown up a Protestant/agnostic, until regaining the fulness of my faith the age of 20, to this day, the Salve Regina strikes me as making the most outrageous claims about Our Lady, that really are surely proper to God alone (not that it bugged me greatly) - in spite of the fact I loved the prayer and its beauty, and even having had it 'from her lips my ears' (if that's not an idolatrous adaptation!) that she wants me to pray it. And its only recently I've realised that God did appoint her to mediate all his graces, not as a tribute to her, not even as a tribute to Himself... but as a tribute to US, to man. He wants us to understand that the titles, 'other Christs', 'first-born sons', were not bestowed on us, in a fit of absent-mindedness. This true vine, with Christ as our head is God, and we're part of it. We're really heading for life within the family life of the Most Holy Trinity, itself. I can't help chuckling to myself every now and again, when I read the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, because I noticed that, as in other Catholic liturgical texts, we don't only ask Mary to pray for us, the prayers further, invariably conclude, one version or other of the words: 'Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God for ever and ever. Amen.' So we really go round the houses. Likewise, to the saints, sometimes Mary and the saints, but always concluding with the petitioning of God, in person(s). And I absolutely love praying to the Holy Souls, people I've loved and lost, family members and friends, who maybe have got their wedding garments a little grubby at some time or other. People like me, and perhaps you. To tell the truth, it all reminds me a bit of the song, 'If you're Irish, come into the parlour..' I love it. Barmy. Quite barmy, particularly, to English sensibilities, but not so much to Jewish, Latin and Celtic sensiblites, I suspect. But I love it, and I don't know if it's because I'm three parts Celt, or because I think like a Londoner, and opposites attract. And I've always loved the Irish. And I don't think it's a coincidence that the Italians and the Jews are known for being great family types. Of course, it would be a generalisation, but I think there's noticeable truth in it just the same.Axel_{August 1, 2014
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Hi BA77, Glad you liked that link.Dionisio_{August 1, 2014
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in storm over stupid tweets: blame it on the selfish gene? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10998498/Richard-Dawkins-in-storm-over-mild-date-rape-tweets.htmlDionisio_{August 1, 2014
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Nice find Dionisio: The Higgs Paradox: A Phenomenal Finding Leads To Many More Questions - June 23rd, 2014 | by Michael Keller Excerpt: Discovering the Higgs boson plugs a large hole in the standard model, the highly tested theory that shows all matter is made of a number of elementary particles that interact through four fundamental forces—strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravitational forces. Together, these comprise everything we currently understand about matter. "The standard model provides a consistent explanation of the subatomic world," said Jonathan Bagger,,, "The Higgs boson is at the center of the model. It’s the linchpin. But there’s plenty of the universe that the standard model doesn’t address." In fact, all of the stuff that the standard model explains represents only 4.9 percent of the universe. Dark matter, which physicists and astronomers can’t actually detect with their instruments, makes up 26.8 percent of the universe, and a whopping 68.3 percent is composed of dark energy, a hypothesized form of energy that is also currently undetectable.,,, (Moreover),The Higgs particle itself is outside the (standard) model. When its mass is plugged in, Bagger says, the picture goes wonky and the math says that quantum fluctuations over time should destroy the universe. “There are several options to fix the math, but none of them are within the standard model,” he says. http://txchnologist.com/post/89670815165/the-higgs-paradox-a-phenomenal-finding-leads-to-manybornagain77_{August 1, 2014
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OT The Higgs Paradox: A Phenomenal Finding Leads To Many More Questions http://txchnologist.com/post/89670815165/the-higgs-paradox-a-phenomenal-finding-leads-to-manyDionisio_{August 1, 2014
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Thanks Mung, those quotes remind me to pre-order my copy of: Being as Communion - Dembski http://www.beingascommunion.com/purchase/ Conversations with William Dembski--The Thesis of Being as Communion - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYAsaU9IvnI&list=PLR8eQzfCOiS3WgNO1msnYMpK-3cezgIzzbornagain77_{August 1, 2014
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hi BA77, I have some new quotes for you:
Similarly, when matter advanced to animation it had to start with a convergence of entropy to specify information that carries meaning. Energy and information are the two irreducible prerequisites of our existence. - Manfred Eigen

Mass-energy is "everything" that constitutes the physical structure of our universe. However, when asked what "that stuff", which manifests itself in such diverse and mutually intertransformable appearances, really is, science replies with an embarrassed silence. We know how to measure it, but we simply do not know what it is. To quote Richard Feynman, from his legendary The Feynman Lectures on Physics: "It is important to realize that in physics, today, we have no knowledge of what energy is." - Manfred Eigen

Hence, what we can say so far is: we do not know what energy is. It must be "something" of a universal nature that appears in material and non-material forms and has the propensity to distribute itself among all states that are accessible without losing or gaining one iota; the amount of energy is perfectly accountable for. - Manfred Eigen
Mung_{August 1, 2014
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yes, that scripture and Joshua 24:15 and others paint a clear picture that man has the ability to choose. I am not sure if we have libertarian free will, but where it counts, the ability to choose life over death seems quite clear to me. There are some Calvinists who hold tight to double predestination. But some are squeamish and have fallen back to single predestination. However, it is not that easy to escape the logical conclusions of Calvinism. But that delayed choice experiment is so profound and quite the nail in the coffin of Calvinism (at least to me)that i cant stop thinking about it. On a side note, I have learned more about evolution from reading your posts then i have in the last couple decades of my life. Sometimes the b*tch slapping of your opponents was so hard that i would have expected them to be knocked back a few rungs on the evolutionarily ladder had evolution by natural selection been true. Thanks for indulging me. I am not sure if I will post again since most of the stuff on this site is over my head, but i do look forward to reading your posts. Take care, Mr. CheeseMr. Cheese_{July 31, 2014
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Mr. Cheese, to say free will is 'non-existent', as you have done, because of God's foreknowledge, is far too strong of a claim to make. Off the top of my head, there are at least two instances that I know of in the bible that God gave man a free choice. One was In the Garden, of course, and the other was here: Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. Now did God allow them an entirely free choice in that instance or not? Since God is omniscient, and we are not, only He is qualified to know if the decision was entirely unforced. We are not in a position to make the judgment. As I said earlier: "The downfall for Calvinists is that foreknowledge and coercion/determinism are not identical things. Thus free will, in a strict sense, cannot logically be ruled out by (God's) foreknowledge. It’s that simple." Moreover, with absolutely no free will, (determinism in the strict sense), you have the little problem of God consigning people to hell for no reason at all since they had never had any choice in the matter. Not an easy dilemma for Calvinists to escape from to put it mildly (although I'm sure, from the few I have met, some have tried). Of related note, this might interest you: Here is a first person account of the split-brain experiment in which the person in the experiment testifies to being 'one' person even though he had lost control of his body: Excerpt: BTW, with regards to your citation of the split-brain experiments (and people who suffer from that due to injury, etc). I was involved in one of those split-brain experiments myself. (Which is possible by temporarily numbing the corpus callosum.) And believe me, it was the damnedest thing. The thing is, even though different parts of my brain were acting as if they had no knowledge of “each other”, behind it all was still “me”, consciously experiencing the strange disconnection. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/holy-rollers-pascals-wager-if-id-is-wrong-it-was-an-honest-mistake/#comment-460565 and In the following videos, although the girl in the videos was written off as hopelessly retarded by everyone who saw her, reveal that there was/is indeed a gentle intelligence, a “me”, a “soul’, within the girl that was/is trapped within her body. And that that “me” was/is unable to express herself properly to others because of her neurological disorder. Severely Handicapped Girl Suddenly Expresses Intelligence At Age 11 – very moving video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNZVV4Ciccg Carly’s Café – Experience Autism Through Carly’s Eyes – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmDGvquzn2k Thus in split brain experiments and autism, we have evidence that a soul exist apart from the body and that the person's free will can be disobeyed. Some of those split brain cases were really weird to learn about.bornagain77_{July 31, 2014
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Ba77: But, you are not God Mr. Cleese. You'll get no argument from me. So what is it about God sharing his foreknowledge with you that fixes the event but not sharing it does not? Him sharing his foreknowledge removes the veil and shows you reality as he sees it, that your free will is non-existent. But when he does not show you, can we not conclude your free will is an illusion? See through a glass dimly? Once again, I believe this position has been crushed by the experiment. I only persure this line of questioning because I do not believe that the Calvinist's position is as weak as you stated above. According to the Internet encyclopedia of philosophy. This falls under epistemic determinism: "If a proposition about some future action you undertake is known (in advance), then (when the time comes) you must undertake that action, that action must occur, you are powerless to prevent yourself from undertaking that action." God knows all future actions. If you grow weary of my questions, I understand. But I am grateful for you taking the time to answer them.Mr. Cheese_{July 31, 2014
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