Defend the Children

_{Barry Arrington
May 24, 2022

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The madness will not end until we grasp the following truths:

1. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US.

2. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it would be a desirable thing to do, no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns.

3. Evil men will always be able to get a gun.

4. Schools are soft targets full of defenseless people.

5. We can’t hire enough cops to guard all of those people.

6. We need to equip and train school staff who are willing to do so to defend themselves and the children in their care.

7. Don’t tell me it can’t be done. It is being done in Israel.

Fight me. Show me that one of those statements is false.

Comments

"Andrew at 45. I called it didn’t I." BA, You did. Andrewasauber_{May 25, 2022
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I can’t even begin to think about how wrong you are all to be making ideological hay out of such a tragedy
Just the opposite. No one here wants to see anyone die unnecessarily. The hypocrisy (ideological hay) is coming from one side of the political spectrum.jerry_{May 25, 2022
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Andrew at 45. I called it didn't I.Barry Arrington_{May 25, 2022
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VL "Bullshit!" Oh what a stunning rejoinder filled with eloquence, evidence and logic. I stand corrected.Barry Arrington_{May 25, 2022
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"heartlessly blame schools and teachers" VL, I didn't blame teachers. They are often hamstrung by school administration. Andrew VL Running Away = "la la la la I can’t hear you.”asauber_{May 25, 2022
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I'm leaving. Your guys ideology is unconscionable. It's one thing to play fun-and-games about philosophical issues and another to heartlessly blame schools and teachers for what is in fact a totally unjustified love affair with guns and ... I can't even begin to think about how wrong you are all to be making ideological hay out of such a tragedy.Viola Lee_{May 25, 2022
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Yes, Respect for Life is a significant issue here. Leftists don't get it. Sigh. Andrewasauber_{May 25, 2022
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Viola Lee- evolution teaches kids that humans are not exceptional. In Columbine one of the shooters wore a "natural selection" t shirt. And given the mass slaughter wrought by abortions, it is a given that kids notice that, too. Just think if there were 2,000+ dead EACH DAY from school or mass shootings. That's the level of carnage abortion brings to the table. For a society to allow the mass the slaughter of their most vulnerable and then whine about guns, is about as hypocritical as a society can get.ET_{May 25, 2022
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VL, first we do not need to go into a spiral to the gutter on language. Second, it was routine for kids to take guns to school or be a part of shooting clubs in schools in the past, try, go hunting before or after school. Third in the further past older kids were to bring guns as part of defence against raids. The systematic devaluation of our intelligent conduct is a fact as is undermining of sanctity of life. Multiply by huge blood guilt. KFkairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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Barry writes, "The thing that has changed is that American schools affirmatively teach that human life is not exceptional, far less sacred." Bullshit! Same to asuaber.Viola Lee_{May 25, 2022
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BA, Indeed. Why would this poor kid want to go back to THE SCHOOL, of all the places he could go, and kill everyone there? Obviously had a bad experience. The SCHOOL is on the hook, IMO, because they claim to know what they are doing, and are going to produce good kids. Obviously not. Andrewasauber_{May 25, 2022
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People often notice that mass shootings in schools are a new thing that seemed to start with Columbine. What changed? It certainly is not the availability of guns, which have been ubiquitous in the US for centuries. As KF notes, I had occasion to become an expert on Columbine. I viewed all of the videos Eric Harris** made, listened to all of his audiotapes, and read all of the writings he left behind. I deposed his parents and others. Here is my conclusion. The thing that has changed is that American schools affirmatively teach that human life is not exceptional, far less sacred. (See today's EN, which carries a story about a professor pushing this very line). Is it a mere coincidence the killings have increased as life has been devalued? Common sense would suggest it is not. Harris was not stupid. He learned his lesson. His teachers taught him Darwin and Nietzche. On the day of the shootings he wore a shirt with "Natural Selection" emblazoned on it. No, it was not a coincidence. The American education system has sown the wind. We are witnessing it reap the whirlwind. ________ **I focus on Harris. He was the leader. Klebold was a follower.Barry Arrington_{May 25, 2022
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Biden’s reaction has nothing to do with preventing deaths. Just as accusations of racism have nothing to do with race. Nor does any of the other talking points have anything to do with fairness for anyone. Nor does claims of climate extremes have any logic in preventing harm from future climate changes. Nor did public health controls do anything to stop the virus from doing what all viruses do. They are blatant attempts using fear to foster emotional responses to gain control. It’s always from one side of the political spectrum. The interesting thing is how stupid the educated are that support these programs. Don’t they know that their current ability to express opinions will be suppressed too? It’s only a matter of time before the Montagnards kill the Girondists. jerry_{May 25, 2022
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Asauber, that raises, school control, given that parents raising unwelcome issues in board meetings have been subjected to police state actions and abuse of terrorism law. H'mm abuse of terrorism law should be treated as a UCMJ violation with shot at dawn as a possible outcome too if bad enough; the old hebraic principle was, if you used knowing false witness to subject someone to death or the like, then you suffered the fate you intended for the other. Play lawfare, get court martialed in response under UCMJ. KF PS, what of the Schaeffer-Koop domino effect, has the blood guilt of 63 million undermined sanctity of life and contributed to nihilism? What about what Plato had to say in The Laws, Bk X?kairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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KF, I know right? There are a lot of questions here that Gun Control doesn't address. Gun Control is not going to fix bullying in schools, either. Leftists are running most of these schools, and they have pretty much destroyed education in America. Andrewasauber_{May 25, 2022
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ASauber, what about looney control too, as in properly supervised institutionalisation and control to protect the public even if we cannot treat the disease? And, what can be done to treat.? is ritalin a factor in this case? KFkairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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Brain-Dead Zombie Leftists yell Gun Control, like it's the only thing you can do as a reaction. Andrewasauber_{May 25, 2022
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KF has fleshed out and expanded on the basic theme. Progressives talk about "common sense" gun control all the time (it is like a mantra). Well, KF has laid plenty of common sense on ya. What are you going to do with it? I suspect the progressives will run around with their hands on their ears yelling "la la la la I can't hear you." Leftist failure in this area is of a piece with leftist failures everywhere. They approach problems assuming the world is as they wish it were, not as it manifestly is.Barry Arrington_{May 25, 2022
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FH, almost certainly, the shooter did not have, selective fire, intermediate round, high capacity magazine military rifles built around statistics that battlefield shooting is rarely beyond 300 m.In the US M16 family, 5.56 is the standard. He likely had a semi automatic rifle, perhaps with high capacity magazine and the similar .223 intermediate round. If he had an AK, .30 cal x 39 mm. Texas is next door to Mexico with a border largely undefended by policy -- oh building a wall is racist etc -- where a civil war rages. Genuine assault rifles are accessible through the same means by which crack and opioids are. Notice, a border patrol agent quickly stopped the massacre by shooting the murderer, that is highlighting the significance of a good guy with a gun close by. KF PS, there is a reason for the first 10 amendments to the US constitution, note especially 1, 2, 4.kairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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H'mm, late to the exchange. I was not monitoring news but found this just now: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10850557/Active-shooter-loose-Texas-elementary-school-campus-plunged-lockdown.html
At least NINETEEN primary school children shot dead by 'bullied' high school student, 18, who posted photos of rifles on Instagram and went on the rampage 'after an argument with his grandmother about failing to graduate' Nineteen pupils aged between seven and 11 are dead after another mass shooting at an elementary school Xavier Lopez, 10, Uziyah Garcia, nine, Makenna Elrod, 10, Amerie Jo Garcia, 10, Eliahana Torres, 10, and Ellie, whose age and surname were not immediately available, among the dead at Robb Elementary School, Texas Eva Mireles, 44, and Irma Garcia, both teachers, were killed in attack that began around 11.30am Tuesday Salvador Ramos, 18, identified as gunman who shot his grandmother before driving to the school and opening fire, before he was shot dead by a Border Patrol agent a short time later Joe Biden condemned the killings and opened gun control debate, urging voters to 'turn this pain into action' By CHRIS PLEASANCE and GINA MARTINEZ and HARRIET ALEXANDER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM PUBLISHED: 18:44 BST, 24 May 2022 | UPDATED: 09:07 BST, 25 May 2022
Sheer nihilism, and obviously if no guns were to hand he could have rammed a car into a crowd as happened last Christmas, maybe even loading it with ANFO and setting it off as a ghastly finale. He could even have got or made a machete and sharpened it "back and belly" turning it into a sword with a terrible false edge for the back hand stroke. There was a horrific attack on a village in Jamaica in 1959 by a crazed man who was caught, tried and hanged in short order. Of course, hardly anyone in a deep rural village would have had a gun. So, instantly we separate mass murder from the controlling surveillance state and linked firearms confiscation pushes. We need to see what can be done to address the nihilism and to catch the violent deranged ahead of time. As for ghoulish cultural marxist pols waiting to jump on convenient cases and incidents to push their lawless oligarchy, surveillance state and reduction of the public to defenceless, manipulated sheep waiting to be shorn or taken to be served as lunch at will, their selection of convenient cases from pandemics to massacres is all we need to note. So, what can be done? Longtime denizens of UD know my position. 1: Every able bodied person of sound mind is duty bound to uphold and as necessary defend the civil peace of justice, not just armed police and soldiery. Call this the unorganised militia principle. 2: In an age of mass terror and mass murdering nihilists and mad men, artificially disarmed places are soft targets waiting for vultures to pounce, so job 1 is to arm and discipline a civilian marshal corps, under LOCAL control but facing military discipline. 3: Under this, murderous or potentially murderous misuse of weapons, tools, objects or implements is violation of the uniform code of MILITARY justice and faces court martial, complete with shot at dawn. Trial, before officers of the militia/military, chaired by a duly sworn in trained lawyer. 4: Each institutional site should organise a local militia, properly armed and with an oversight watch. Similarly, each public event or space. Integrated with local police especially the Shire Reff, i.e. Sheriff. 5: BA is right on each of his points, and is a world expert on the paradigm massacre, Columbine:
- 1 is notorious and pols playing usurpation games make it even more obvious - 2 is manifest as rightly a gun confiscation push will be seen as a step to lawless oligarchical tyranny and hopeless subjugation under heirs of Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al. See the estimates of how many would have to be killed in the late sixties - 3 is obvious, are you going to track down 150 years of manufacture, every serious machine shop, every garage with tools, etc, not to mention every place one can get charcoal, sulphur, saltpetre [every dung heap], even sugar or sawdust? - 4 is a consequence of feel good disarmament and is sustained by agit prop - 5 is manifest, we need the militia principle - 6 says, form the militia unit and train and arm it - 7 is so, long ago we had a famous picture of a class trip with a supervisory adult with a slung M1 Carbine
6: Now, we need to update arming. For rapid response, 9 mm parabellum pistols, compact or extended to sizes that enhance accuracy. 7: We note, the US Military has gone with the 6.8 x 51 mm cartridge with a stainless head to take 80 to 120 kpsi giving 3000 fps from a 13 + inch barrel or thereabouts. The issue is range and more effective ballistic protection. This is in longer barrels and with smart scopes easy at 800m and feasible up to 1200m. But it carries a significant kick though extension of artillery style mechanisms can tame it. Hot loads like this are also barrel eaters, maybe 15k rounds life, and one needs regular practice. Expensive. 8: I think, pro backup and perhaps, key access points, with armour piercing rounds. Shooting that in crowded spaces with thin walls is a nightmare. But that is where things are being pushed. 9: Consider, armour control, so it is hard to get the sort of armour that would force use of such without very high weight penalty. 10: Despite US opinion, I think the bullpup makes a lot of sense and point to the Tavor. I think, still, 6.5 mm Grendel makes sense as basic load, better sense to me than the .277 fury loaded to 80 kpsi. That's 800 - 1,000 m, and the Creedmoor would give extra long range coverage. I do not favour 5.56 mm. 11: Layered defence. KFkairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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So far almost everyone has ignored my post and simply stuck their opinions about gun control in the combox. VL gave some vague "we oughta do something" platitudes without actually countering any of my points. Come on people. This is life and death we are talking about here. Address the points raised. Perhaps the most vital point is 1. We have hundreds of millions of guns. It does no good for anyone to say "why can't we be more like Canada?" We are not like Canada. We will never be like Canada. Take your head out of the sand and deal with facts as they are. Accept that we will never eliminate access to guns. It is not possible even if it were desirable. And having accepted that stark ineluctable reality, address the remaining points. Wake up. Wishful thinking is not the solution. Barry Arrington_{May 25, 2022
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BobRyan -
The UK has very strict gun laws making it almost impossible to legally own firearms. That does not stop firearms from getting to the people illegally.
And when was the last mass shooting in the UK? Dunblane, wasn't it? So if the purpose is to reduce gun deaths, the laws seem to have worked. Strict gun laws won't stop everyone from owning a gun, but if they stops some, and thus reduces gun deaths significantly, then they will have worked.Bob O'H_{May 25, 2022
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Violent psychopaths commit violence. They tell people exactly what they are going to do and follow through. Every mass shooter is a violent psychopath. Sane people do not commit mass murder. It is long past times to change the laws to make it easier to institutionalize them before they can carry through with violent action.BobRyan_{May 25, 2022
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I'll probably vote with my feet. The way politics is so polarised in the US, the best way for both gun enthusiasts and people like me who'd prefer not to have one nor be killed by one is to live in a state with the preferred legislation regarding firearms ownership and control.Fred Hickson_{May 25, 2022
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Well Fred just vote joe and dem during the midterms, things are moving alone swimmingly under their current guidance don’t you think It’s sooooooo odd that suddenly we get this, monkey poxes, and a leaked overturning of Roe vs Wade just months before the midterm just like Covid and Russia right before the election……AaronS1978_{May 25, 2022
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The Buffalo shooter was taken in for a mental health check and let go. It is extremely difficult to institutionalize anyone against their will. People who shoot up schools or markets are not mentally stable. People who do that are psychopaths. "No matter where one stands on the long-debated question of whether “nothing works” when it comes to criminal rehabilitation,7 there is no doubt that the psychopath has grossly distorted the inquiry. Psychopaths are not only much more likely than non-psychopaths to be imprisoned for committing violent crimes,8 they are also more likely to finagle an early release using the deceptive skills that are part of their pathologic toolbox,9 and then, once released, are much more likely to recidivate, and to recidivate violently.10" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059069/BobRyan_{May 25, 2022
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Just thinking a little more. There are many other countries where gun ownership is very low. What are they missing? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_countryFred Hickson_{May 25, 2022
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Just thinking that an eighteen year old kid can easily buy something over the counter that enables him to rapidly and efficiently kill twenty people is maybe too much.Fred Hickson_{May 25, 2022
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So Fred I was wrong but as you being right solve the actual issue, I miss read a news post again, now did that gun make this kid just fly off the rocker and shoot all those other kids? Have you ever dealt with the border or been to the Arizona Sonoran border My brother and several other buddies of mine have, they’re part of border patrol The people they deal with have real assault weapons, none are owned legally and the drug cartels don’t care to follow your rules Do blanket gun restrictions help with that Do blanket gun restrictions help with the Unabomber and other people like him Do blanket go to restrictions help with Terrorists How about violent criminals You’re being right on one thing and me being wrong doesn’t solve the initial problem You won’t be able to get all the weapons away from everybody that’s so unrealistic, solve why they’re doing it and you’ll do everybody a favor https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1505606/Kongsberg-attack-Norway-bow-and-arrow-man-dead-killed-terror-latest-news-updates-policeAaronS1978_{May 25, 2022
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Oh I stand mistaken How convenient two AR-15 the bane of liberals everywhere……….. I read earlier that it was a handgun now it’s turned into two AR-15 I guess there’s a lot of stories going around but my point still stands and again with an interesting choice given the political craziness over that particular gunAaronS1978_{May 25, 2022
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