Defend the Children

_{Barry Arrington
May 24, 2022

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The madness will not end until we grasp the following truths:

1. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US.

2. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it would be a desirable thing to do, no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns.

3. Evil men will always be able to get a gun.

4. Schools are soft targets full of defenseless people.

5. We can’t hire enough cops to guard all of those people.

6. We need to equip and train school staff who are willing to do so to defend themselves and the children in their care.

7. Don’t tell me it can’t be done. It is being done in Israel.

Fight me. Show me that one of those statements is false.

Comments

"Why bring up abortion?" Relatd, It needs to be brought up until it is abolished. It's the leading indicator that we are living in a Culture of Death. Human life has been devalued. We need to restore a Culture of Life. Andrewasauber_{May 25, 2022
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Dogdoc at 106, Where is your research? Where is your evidence that anyone 'loves guns'? Do you know why most people own guns? Research, not speculation please. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/relatd_{May 25, 2022
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KF at 102, So it's the government's fault? That's it? And what we in the U.S. have to look forward to is more of the same? Not helpful - at all. Why bring up abortion? Jane Roe was Norma McCorvey in Roe v. Wade. She never got an abortion. So what was she doing there? She became actively pro-life.relatd_{May 25, 2022
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Barry is clearly right that we are well past a point of no return regarding gun ownership. At this point, any attempt to disarm the populace will not only fail, it will result in increasing the proportion of bad actors among gun owners. That doesn't mean that the prevalence of firearms in the U.S. isn't an obvious reason for our disproportionate gun violence, it just means we can't solve the problem by taking away guns. Some claim that "mental illness" in the U.S. is primarily responsible, but I'm not aware of any studies revealing the frequency of mental illness here is greater than in other countries. Others claim that turning away from religion, or embracing evolutionary theory, plays a crucial role in increasing gun violence, but that just doesn't comport with evidence from other countries who are experiencing increasing secularization without a commensurate upswing in gun violence. I agree with those who have focused on our attitude toward guns. Hollywood movies, video games, and music videos all glamorize gun violence. People fetishize guns, especially those that are similar to military weapons designed to kill people efficiently. There are gun-oriented websites and magazines with women in bikinis posing with deadly weapons, which is bizarre. Recently, our elected politicians even sent out holiday cards with all of the family members holding these weapons! Rather than focus on how much fun it is to own and use these weapons, and glamorize them in our entertainment, we should be thinking about how to change our relationship to them. It should not be cool or socially acceptable to "love guns".dogdoc_{May 25, 2022
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AS, more details:
Officers from multiple agencies responded to the school, among them both on- and off-duty Border Patrol agents. It was one of those agents, the Associated Press reported, who rushed into the school, found the shooter barricaded in a classroom, and fatally shot him. The agent was wounded in the gunfire and has since been released from the hospital. The AP also said that investigators told CNN all the fatalities were in the same 4th grade classroom.
KFkairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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LCD: You said morality is subjective . Do the math.
And how has that objective mirality been working out?JHolo_{May 25, 2022
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Some food for thought from https://www.sandyhookpromise.org/blog/gun-violence/16-facts-about-gun-violence-and-school-shootings/ Each day 12 children die from gun violence in America. Another 32 are shot and injured.1 Guns are the leading cause of death among American children and teens. 1 out of 10 gun deaths are age 19 or younger.2 The U.S. has had 2,032 school shootings since 1970 and these numbers are increasing. Alarmingly, 948 school shootings have taken place since the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School in December 2012. In 4 out of 5 school shootings, at least one other person had knowledge of the attacker’s plan but failed to report it. About 1 out of 5 gay and lesbian youth have been threatened or injured with a weapon on school property. The majority of individuals with diagnosed mental illness do not engage in violence against others.
JHolo_{May 25, 2022
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Folks, if it weren't so sad (and likely a harbinger), it would be amusing. The US is a state where, 50 years ago, a panel of the most highly qualified and vetted Government officials established under colour of rights the slaughter of 63 million of your living posterity in the womb and every attempt to stop the slaughter has been attacked ruthlessly. If that does not wake you up to how dangerous, reckless and ruthless the Government and establishment are, nothing will. We are now in a day where the frontiers are closed, there is nowhere to go to get away from the out of control state. Under those circumstances it is a very reasonable stance for people to take steps under what freedoms they have left to defend themselves. And 10,000 rounds is about two years of practice or a month or so of fighting in a situation where if the balloon goes up, restocking is going to be a problem for years on end. So, it may be an ugly picture but the situation is far uglier. Well do I remember coming around an aisle in a supermarket with wife and child, only to see a police man IIRC in flack coat and with an M16 [I think full auto] in his supermarket trolley coming the other way. That is where that society was, and 20 years before the police, armed with police 38 revolvers and 303 WW1 vintage rifles were suddenly outgunned; it was C19 meet C20. I recall studying one night at that earlier time to hear pi pi, tatatatatat. Then tat tat. (More like pop.) A police officer had been ambushed in a rum shop. He got off two rounds with his service revolver before being cut down with ten rounds per second M16 fire. You do not want to go there. KFkairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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Really? “He was engaged by an Uvalde ISD police officer who works here at the school,” Estrada told CNN. “And then after that, he was engaged by two other officers from the Uvalde Police Department.” The officers did not pursue the suspect into the school. “At that point as he made entry he began shooting children, teachers, anybody that was in his way he was shooting people that were in front of him,” Texas Department of Public Safety Lt. Chris Olivares told KPRC." https://www.crimeonline.com/2022/05/25/police-engaged-shooter-outside-elementary-school-before-he-killed-19-students-inside-state-police/ Andrewasauber_{May 25, 2022
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Maybe JVL can point us to some elegant math that solves violence. Andrewasauber_{May 25, 2022
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JVL, "change their stance"? About what? The right to bear arms? A massive sweep for illegal weapons? Even though you no longer live in the U.S., the 'it's not my problem' approach is not helpful. So, to all reading - no practical ideas? If you don't trust the government to stop or reduce the occurrence of this sort of thing, then what are the practical steps?relatd_{May 25, 2022
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Relatd:You’ve offered no clue about the ‘top-tier’ countries and why things are different there. Should I take out a calculator to solve this problem? That's right, I haven't. It's up to the people with the problem to solve the problem. It's not up to someone from the outside to dictate what they should do. I thought you would appreciate that. I was just pointing out the different perspectives and situations. You guys do what you can do. It's not my call. Why does anyone need an AK-47 and 10,000 rounds of ammunition? I agree but I'm not part of the problem or part of the possible solution. It's up to the people of the US to find a way to deal with the situation. If they choose to change their stance.JVL_{May 25, 2022
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Viola Lee I’m leaving. Your guys ideology is unconscionable. It’s one thing to play fun-and-games about philosophical issues and another to heartlessly blame schools and teachers for what is in fact a totally unjustified love affair with guns and … I can’t even begin to think about how wrong you are all to be making ideological hay out of such a tragedy.
You said morality is subjective . Do the math.Lieutenant Commander Data_{May 25, 2022
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JVL at 93, You've offered no clue about the 'top-tier' countries and why things are different there. Should I take out a calculator to solve this problem? President Obama was motivated to solve this problem. The end result was persons unknown buying as much 'about to be banned' weapons and ammo as they could, to the point where even gun shows and private dealers ran out of both. Why does anyone need an AK-47 and 10,000 rounds of ammunition? All rifles need regular maintenance.relatd_{May 25, 2022
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Barry @ 71 - is that a "no"? Are you not going to defend your statement?Bob O'H_{May 25, 2022
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BA/62
[A]s if guns were not widely available for centuries before mass shootings at schools became a thing. Get a clue Chuck. Availability of guns is not the variable that changed. Focusing on the variable that did not change to explain the change is stupid. Try again.
Actually, the availability of guns--and more importantly, firepower and effectiveness--has changed dramatically "over the centuries" as you put it. Firearms have been around circa 1400 AD. Automatic effective field weapons (gat's, sten's, BAR's, etc.) have only been around since just prior to WW I and high-capacity civilian firearms for only a few years, post-Vietnam. There is a significant difference between a matchlock muzzle loader and an M16 (AR) with a 30-round clip. You actually have to be an excellent marksman to hit something with a muzzle loader. Any clown can pull the trigger of an AR or a Glock, and, sadly, just about any clown can get his hands on one these days.chuckdarwin_{May 25, 2022
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Relatd: What was the point of all that? You’ve offered nothing. I don't know what the answer is. I don't live in the US anymore; I'm not going to move back. It's up to the people in the US to solve the problem. But, from an outside of the US perspective: there's a problem you should be able to solve. The rest of the top-tier countries don't have this problem.JVL_{May 25, 2022
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JVL, What was the point of all that? You've offered nothing.relatd_{May 25, 2022
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What is different about the US when it comes to mass shootings? The US does have a high rate of legal gun ownership but, as was pointed out, many of those gun owners never brandish their weapon in anger thankfully. Many are responsible firearms owners who make sure their weapons are securely locked away when they're not hunting or target shooting. The US is far from the only country where some of its residents feel threatened or at risk. Maybe some countries (like Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, etc) are not accurately represented in the statistics but certainly amongst the top-tier, first-world countries the US death rate due to gun fire is chart topping. I heard today, but I have not verified, that the leading cause of death in the US for primary school children in 2019 was gunfire. IF that is true that is sickening. IF that is true. The US is not the only country which, relatively recently, has a strong memory of something like the 'wild west' where the gun was the law. But, again, amongst the first-world countries perhaps it is much younger. (Caveat here, Italy and Germany and some other European countries are fairly 'young' in their current incarnations but effectively have existed as cultural entities for many centuries.) What is it about America that means this keeps happening again and again and again? Every year. Understanding the 'cause' or underlying effects would help solve the problem. I'd hate for schools to become armed fortresses. I'd hate the US to revert to Deadwood. So, what's the solution? Something that everyone can agree on is good. A multi-prong approach would be good. But no one wants it to go on. But it does.JVL_{May 25, 2022
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PPPS, I think we need to ponder Plato's ship of state.kairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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A side note. This sort of thing usually attracts agitators who will use this incident to support things other than practical solutions. A 9mm semi-automatic pistol could have been used with the same effect. No one needs an AK-47.relatd_{May 25, 2022
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BA, there is a 78 year old well known proper definition tracing to the STG 44, 1944 -- Sturm Gewehr. A rifle with select fire including full automatic, firing an intermediate cartridge to get 300 m of effective, aimed fire range. the intermediate cartridges allow ready control of the weapon while firing on automatic -- they tend to ride up -- and with high capacity to support automatic fire during infantry assaults. A typical context is that one element establishes a fire base which by dominating the enemy pins them down while a maneuver element goes to a flank to take out the position. The current AR 15 -- Armalite Rifle, which has neither a burst mode nor full auto mode, is not an assault rifle [it is marginal for reasonable sized game but is popular given low recoil and 50 years of refinement of an originally flawed design], and there is no coherent and sensible definition of the made up agit prop and lawfare term "assault weapon." Currently, they are trying to get a more powerful round while managing recoil to bridge to 800 m typical, and with good soldiers 1200 m would be feasible. The Russian AK47 -- Automat Kalashnikov -- and derivatives are far closer to the original STG 44, but are designed for much the same purpose. So called "high power" rifles, fire rounds that are designed to reach 800m, but their recoil is such that they are not good for full auto mode, as the US learned with the M14 fiasco. they should have standardised on the .280 British and the EM2 or FAL. The EM2 was a bullpup, wich offers compactness while having a full length barrel. They insisted on the 7.62 x 51 mm and learned a hard lesson. KF PS, the slander agit prop and lawfare games we see are red flags that we are dealing with the fundamentally lawless. PPS, The old SMLE, c 1907 fired a much more powerful round, the .303 Mark VIIkairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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BA at 84, We're going to talk about defining 'assault rifle'? For what reason? The first true assault rifle appeared during World War II. It was designed to be most effective - most lethal - at a certain range. It was very effective. It had what is called a banana clip so soldiers in the field could engage multiple targets. I watched the incident at Waco as it happened. Yes, certain people could have been arrested, resulting in less loss of life. I doubt the Branch Davidians had the surveillance and monitoring equipment available to the FBI and military. Why bring up the Founders? They fought with equal weapons against a similarly equipped enemy. And today, what language are we speaking? American? No, it's English. Not the Queen's English but English. I am offering a practical view of a situation where heavily armed survivalists cannot outmaneuver any force sent against them by using firepower alone. Their will to fight for what they see as a good cause means they won't see it coming. A lot of technology has been developed between 1776 and today.relatd_{May 25, 2022
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BA: Here is my conclusion. The thing that has changed is that American schools affirmatively teach that human life is not exceptional, far less sacred.
Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, most European and Scandinavian schools are far more secular than those in the US, and have much higher rates of atheism. And yet they do not have anywhere near the number per capita of mass shootings and school shootings that the US does.JHolo_{May 25, 2022
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FH, slander. The short term solution on the table is comparable to that of Israel, target hardening through the organised militia set up as civilian marshals in coordination with the Sheriffs.And under UCMJ. As in abuse a weapon or potential weapon like a car or knife for terrorism or mass murder and face a court martial. Play willful lawfare games against the innocent and also face court martial. For that matter, the defamation law in the US needs to be drastically reformed in defencxe of innocent reputation. That you chose to twist that into falsehood is telling. You have no real solution but wish to promote further state control on any convenient incident or excuse. If you are willing to slander at this level of control, what would you support at higher levels were ability to defend freedom removed? The past 120 years is replete with sad cases in point on where that leads. KFkairosfocus_{May 25, 2022
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Related, by all means give us a definition of "assault rifle" that does not sweep in every semiautomatic rifle. It would be interesting if you were able to succeed when literally hundreds of bill drafters have failed. Also, your Waco example was ill chosen. In that case the government wound up burning to death dizens of innocent women and children when they could have arrested their target easily at any time when he left the compound, which he regularly did. Finally, the founders faced and defeated the mightiest army in the world in a revolution that was touched off when citizens resisted government agents confiscation of firearms at Lexington and Concord. I am glad theyhad the resolve to do so and did not give in to the counsel of despair such as that you offer.Barry Arrington_{May 25, 2022
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I have watched the U.S. deteriorate as a civilized society. Politeness, kindness and general good behavior were the norm. There was no 'perfect' time but I have seen much better. A period of time where being a good citizen meant personal action, and commitment, from individuals for the good of themselves and their neighbors. I liked most of my neighbors. The few oddballs were left alone. That is the kind of decision each of us should make.relatd_{May 25, 2022
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Barry, I apologize for not addressing your points, but here are my thoughts: It is possible that easy access to firearms has contributed to mass killings in America. I don't know the answer to that, but I believe we must acknowledge the possibility. However, what is NOT acknowledged by those opposed to private firearm ownership is the check on tyranny it provides. As horrific as mass murders by private individuals are, exponentially more horrific are the mass murders committed by governments throughout history. Looking back at the 20th century alone, there were tens (hundreds?) of millions of individuals murdered by tyrants. The Founders of our nation recognized the danger of allowing tyrants to act unfettered, and they provided a safeguard by enacting the 2nd Amendment. Yes, firearm availability in a free society comes with consequences. Sometimes, those consequences are awful. The freedom to move about comes with consequences--tens of thousands of Americans die in transportation related accidents annually because of that. The freedom of speech can create tension and conflict, which, again, results in death and destruction. However, we live in a nation where costs have been weighed and balanced; there are no utopias, and we must face the risks via a mature, rational decision-making process. I think our Founders chose the wisest course they possibly could, and it would be foolhardy and tragic to abandon those ideals.OldArmy94_{May 25, 2022
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Andrew at 60, Brandishing a gun while leaning against an expensive and flashy car, and with scantily clad girls in the background, thugs posing as musicians (yes, it is 'only' an act for some), disrespect women, and the jewelry hanging around their neck exposes their motivation.relatd_{May 25, 2022
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In general, I am not against people owning firearms for protection against muggers and burglars. For defending their families from break-ins. And for other legitimate kinds of self-defense. I dislike politics but when President Obama attempted to ban certain types of weapons and ammunition, here is what happened. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/docs/wh_now_is_the_time_full.pdf And from gun store owners: https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6209255&page=1relatd_{May 25, 2022
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