Off Topic: “Faith & Healing: Where’s the Evidence?”

_{William Dembski

July 12, 2008

Off Topic}

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Here’s something I wrote for the Baptist Press about faith healer Todd Bentley. Unlike Richard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, James Randi, and the skeptical community in general, I don’t throw out all miraculous healings. Indeed, I think they are far more prevalent than we ordinarily imagine. At the same time, we need to guard against wishful thinking.

Comments

[A] Prayer is effective and community prayer is more effective still. Sometimes, legitimate men of God can, during a public service, mobilize community prayer in a special way. The problem is, of course, that many try to make a living out of it. That is why there are more bad ones than good ones. [B] On the medical front, I would not place all my bets on traditionally trained doctors for a problem such as this. Alternative medicine is a good bet, provided one steers clear of new-age formulations, which are spiritually problematic and medically untested. On the other hand, there is something to be said for putting things in the body that should be there and taking things out of the body that should not be there.StephenB_{July 16, 2008
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It was an open italics tag. I closed it in the first line of #54. Open tags apparently propogate across posts. There might be clues here for the blockquote problem as well. Apologies for inserting such a geeky discussion into the middle of this thread. But at least we are no longer in Italy.Tom MH_{July 16, 2008
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Try this.Tom MH_{July 16, 2008
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Jesus cured a leper and told him not to tell anyone (Matt 8:4) Jesus cured a deaf person and told him not to tell anyone (Mark 7:36) Jesus raised a girl from the dead and told her parents not to tell anyone (Luke 8:56) There's a pattern here. What Todd Bentley is doing is not healing, it's Priestcraft: "preaching false doctrines...for the sake of riches and honor." (Alma 1:16 (Book of Mormon)) Healings by the power of God do occur. I have personal experience of one, which I do not share publicly. ps why is everything in this thread after 43 being italicized?dacook_{July 16, 2008
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The Internet is replete with the breathtaking vulgarity of self-appointed guardians of the faith who are savaging Mr. Bentley, and I will not wish them Godspeed. However in this writing Mr. Dembski appears to characterize the integrity and intent of any number of his fellow believers working at the event - not just my friend Todd - in a manner that suggested he was simply not believing the best about them. I was just appealing for some grace, that's all.dancurant_{July 15, 2008
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"To be blunt, anyone who is taking $ for performing miracles, not to mention seeking fame from the endeavour, is not on God’s errand. Both of those aspects are diametrically opposed to the example of the Son’s ministry." Also, it would seem a given that Mr. Dembski did some further research on Bentley and found some interesting unbiblical ideas emanating from this "prophet." Such as his unbiblical idea that he visited with a female angel - angels don't have genders to my knowledge, but all angels mentioned in scripture have male names. I also viewed several YouTube videos of Bentley "healing" people where he kicked them in the ribs and caused pain, and where he talks of one session where he kicked an old woman in the forehead, stating to her that this is the way she was going to be healed. With tactics like that, perhaps it is fortunate for Mr. Dembski that he did not make it to the stage.CannuckianYankee_{July 15, 2008
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Dear Dr. Dembski, It is indeed painful to experience a betrayal of spiritual trust. the lesson for the children on hypocracy, greed and deception is a useful one. It need not touch their faith, it is simply important to be aware if the need for wisdom and discernment. I would not give up on either faith healing, nor alternative medicine. Autism is not a genetic defect so far as I know. I do think excessive number of vaccinations is a strong suspect, and if it were me I would keep looking for a natural solution, detox, but perhaps you already have.avocationist_{July 14, 2008
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Dancurant wrote: "Or any of many explanations other than the ones you appear to have assumed." Perhaps, as a sheer logical possibility, but not likely. To be blunt, anyone who is taking $ for performing miracles, not to mention seeking fame from the endeavour, is not on God's errand. Both of those aspects are diametrically opposed to the example of the Son's ministry.Eric Anderson_{July 14, 2008
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I actually find the story of your visit to the Todd Bentley meeting somewhat cynical. You make judgements that appear to read minds - How do you know it was all about power, money, and prestige? Sometimes at these meetings the leader feels led to focus on certain classes of infirmities - maybe this was the case when you visited and maybe not, but how do you know? Maybe they planned to stay late to pray for others such as your son but were advised late in the evening that they did not have the authorization. Or any of many explanations other than the ones you appear to have assumed. Most of what you observed could have been construed in a more gracious light. I am of course grieved that your son and everyone else's son was not healed, and as a father I can empathize. And I encourage you to choose to continue to push the Lord on this thing. But to be honest and objective means to allow that what you extrapolated from what you observed could not have been much harsher in its characterization of the intent of the people involved.dancurant_{July 14, 2008
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Tristan @33 Thanks. I was reading the comments and hoping there was someone here who had actually read and remembered all of what it was C.S. Lewis was trying to say. Important distinction there between "miracles of the old creation" and "miracles of the new creation".Jack Golightly_{July 14, 2008
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I greatly appreciated your article Dr. Dembski. I had a daughter with brain cancer. She was barely 2 years old when it was discovered. Within a week of it's being positively diagnosed, she was prononced without hope. They gave her 3 months at most. The neurosurgeons and nurses in the operating room, when they did a biopsy, wept when they saw how far the medulo glastoma had spread in her little head. She lived 6. As a Christian, believing in divine healing, I, like you, could not just give up and watch her be tortured to death by that most heinous ill. I asked many churches to pray. I took her to 'healing meetings'. Several pastors and priests come to my home and pray. Some from hundreds of miles away, without asking a cent and of their own desire. Friends prayed. One church in British Columbia actually fasted for her. But on september 2, 1991, I watched her precious life leave her little beaten body - she was blind, paralysed and her hands twisted up over her wrists. I saw the light go out of her eyes. Before, every morning when she awoke she would sing me Happy Birthday - until she lost her voice. She used to put her own tiny hands on her head and say, "Go away cancer". She was the most servile, loving daughter you could ask for. Quiet and obediant with her beautiful blond hair and simple but subtle sense of wry humour. Yes at 2! Do I still believe in healing? Yes. Do I still believe in a loving God? Yes. Was it hard? Extremely. And often still is 17 years later. It took me 2 months to stop my vehement anger at God, the world, doctors, life... I wanted to die myself the pain was so bad. What helped bring me around out of total frustrated agony was when I asked God to help me. What he showed me was WWI and WWII. He showed me that thousands of good, believing families had sons and daughters, fathers and mothers killed in the most violent ways. Did they not pray too? Were they not in true faith? Could they not claim the same promises as all others who actually did receive healing claimed? Why did they die? I saw how selfish I was. Where were my complaints when other children were dying in hospitals and war fields all around the world? I realised that I understood nothing of God's ways. I realized I understood that only he knew all circumstances and all hearts and all ends. An old Christian woman wrote me after Rachel Ann's death. She said, "God's will holds sway over his promises". The old saints had it right. I then saw, while at some friends dinner, their little 2 year old, fall and hurt her knees on the stairs. Immediately came to mind the standard question, "Why did God allow that?" In that context, suddenly the whole question became foolish to me. Our adult versions of the question are no better. We live in torn and fallen world where death takes us all in the end and suffering is possible because free will exists and rebellion is the norm. I don't understand it all, but now, I don't have to. I still ask questions, but I no longer demand 'logical' answers. I just trust him no matter what. And I have no regrets about it. As Lewis so wisely said, "Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself." – The Problem of Pain Through all this I was discovering the God of Job. "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him" Now I am far better equipped to aid counsel and comfort others in situations of deep suffering and disappontment with God. A book that really helped me was Dr. Diane Komp's 'Windows to heaven' - how children see life in death. I heartily recommend it to all suffering parents of suffering children. ---------------- One more thing - I cannot condone some of the above comments calling Bentely a demonic leader etc.. Do those that say such know him personally? I doubt it. 2nd hand information and ignorance of the heart are always dangerous and lead to bad judgment. Bentley's just barely over 30 and has only been involved with Christianity for a relatively short time, thus he may simply be mistaken and misled himself by others on many things. Being mistaken, even sadly mistaken, does not make one demonic or evil.Borne_{July 14, 2008
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"What do we tell our children? I'm still working on that one." That every genuine good thing has an evil counterfeit. Christ has an anti-Christ. Real scientists that seek what is true through open inquiry have the pretending propogandist that simply wants power and control. Good men and women in medicine have their quack doctors conjuring up unnecessary medicines and procedures. Some prey on greed, others prey on valid needs and suffering. In fact, the counterfeit strengthens the case that the real exists, rather than calls it into doubt. Counterfeit money only has power because the real exists. Quack medicines only sell because real medicine has the power to help people. False prayer and healing only exists because of the power of real prayer and healing. I attended a healing prayer class full of sincere individuals, led buy a volunteer who earned nothing. The leader was motivated because he believes God healed him from alcoholism by taking him back to a vision of a lineage of alcoholism in Ireland, and then released him from its' grip. I asked him if he thought the vision to actually be real, and I got just the answer I was looking for. He told me he had no idea whether the vision was literally true, or just symbolic, but it worked just the same!! Many in the class experienced healing. In most cases the healings were gradual. It did not make the nightly news, but it sure made a difference in their lives. Healings and miracles are commonplace in the developing world. But our elitists avoid the reality of it, it is much to threatening to deal with. I have spoken to far too many people who have visited overseas to doubt its widespread existence. I am currently reading a book about Smith Wigglesworth, one of the greats in early Pentecostalism (late 1800s, early 1900s) (by Stanley Howard Frodsham). The quantity of healings is staggering, if it be true.Ekstasis_{July 14, 2008
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Rick Pearcey editorializes: Dembski Questions Famed Healing Ministry By Rick Pearcey, Monday, July 14, 2008
William A. Dembski of Intelligent Design fame questions the healing ministry of Todd Bentley down in Lakeland, Fla. Such questioning is legitimate, Biblical, humane, and necessary. Humaness, worldview, and discipleship are cut from the single cloth of truth. We await a reply to Demski's question: "Faith and Healing -- Where's the Evidence?" Meanwhile, one way to test the validity of an organization is to examine its methods. Not just the PR methods evidenced on websites with glossy pictures, wondrous bios, and a Herculean list of accomplishments and books, columns, etc., "by" the latest version of "renegade-turned-modern-day-St. Paul." No, sadly, not the methods on display for public view, but the ones kept "in the basement," as it were. That's where, so often, in the dark, the real work is done. In this regard, and in liberating contrast, the Lord's work is meant to be done the Lord's way, across the board, and with application to the nuts and bolts of organizations put forward as "Christian ministries. . . . . "Test everything," says the real Apostle Paul (1 Thess. 5:21). "Testing everything" is key to embracing love and avoiding the cruelty and ugliness of a truncated Christianity and inhumane "ministry." One more thing: If this isn't fixed, it matters little who wins the election. Politics follows culture. Methods matter. It's a warning and a promise."
See full article: Dembski Questions Famed Healing MinistryDLH_{July 14, 2008
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Contentment - Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw37X2snzyYbornagain77_{July 14, 2008
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What a poignant, distressing story. One has to admire the sincerity and humility it took to tell this story, and the positive faith it shows. It goes to show that just as charlatans come in the name of science, so also they come in the name of God. And God permits it—perhaps, in part, so as to drive us to seek all the harder the genuine and learn to reject the false. We face falsity everywhere, in politics, in science, in religion. And this is as true in the institutional church as out among the mavericks. It has ever been so. There was a great lesson in this regard in yesterday’s Torah reading which involves Balaam, a supposed spokesman for God. His problem was greed. He couldn’t curse Israel—God put blessings in his mouth. So he reasoned, “If I can seduce Israel to sin then God will curse them.” It reminds me of the aftermath of World War II. The forces of evil did not defeat us militarily, so they seduced us to sin in the Sixties. The prophets and Jesus himself confronted the priests and religionists in their day and very often in a highly critical and confrontational manner. Were the messiah to come to us today I’m sure many a priest and minister and rabbi would cringe. Would they not kill him again? Or have we changed? One is reminded of the atheist’s dream in Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karam. Jesus returned and was imprisoned and a priest came and asked, “You remember when Satan offered you all the kingdoms of the world? Well, when you left we accepted.” And so it says (1John 4:1), “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” It doesn’t say a few. It says many But how do you explain all this to seven year olds? All I can think of is, keep up the good work. And keep the faith!Rude_{July 13, 2008
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What do we tell our children? Start with the thing about wolves in sheep's clothing.tribune7_{July 13, 2008
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Dr. Dembski, My heart hurts for you. Having grown up in a church and tradition much like Bentley's, I know the show well. I'm sorry that you had to witness it firsthand, though I am sure that you did have a true learning experience. I have personally experienced the healing power of God, not from the touch of a special minister, but from the earnest prayers of my friends and family--all the most normal, yet wonderful, of people. You are in my thoughts and prayers. -Joelthelonliestmonk_{July 13, 2008
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As everyone knows, Theresa of Avila was cannonized as a saint by the Catholic Church. It is reported that she was moving her order from one place to another. During the move she and her Sisters had to cross a river, stepping on one rock at a time. Everyone crossed without incident. St. Theresa, however, lost her footing and fell into the river. Frustrated, she asked Our Lord out loud, "Why me?!" Our Lord responded, "This is the way I treat all my friends." To which she responded, "If this is the way you treat your friends, then it is no wonder you have so few."StephenB_{July 13, 2008
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The best movie/commentary I ever watched about miracles was "Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin. If anyone ever starts watching it, just realize that the whole movie is just a setup for the last 10 minutes. Dr. Dembski - Just to let you know - I've been in a similar situation, so I'm thinking about you and praying for you and your little one. We lost a child to a genetic condition several years ago, which ravaged him while he was alive. I'll believe with you for a miracle, whether that comes from science, the supernatural, or both.johnnyb_{July 13, 2008
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You may, or may not, find this following video helpful Dr. Dembski http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=bb01bb304bea052c63ddbornagain77_{July 13, 2008
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I, like Mats @ 35, was also blest to read your account sir, troubling as it was for you and your family. Perhaps, though, as much as we get to the point of being troubled, the closer we come to the heart of God. ???? ?? ?????? ?? YHWH is close to the broken hearted. One of Christ's greatest miracles, the raising of Lazarus, found him troubled in spirit, to the point that "Jesus wept." The times I've been broken the most deeply are the times that I've seen God's personal interest in me most clearly. (Would that I were broken much more often!!) Best wishes.benkeshet_{July 13, 2008
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No matter what people say, Bill, I think you have shown great humility and great faith. I usually am skeptical of healers who don't take too much time on God's Word and, as I think you said, don't link the miracles to the Message. Supernatural events happen in all religions, but what is important is the message behind the miracle. But anyway, thanks for posting this, Bill. It was a blessing to me. God blessMats_{July 13, 2008
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ICEpowered.com Todd Bentley is leading the largest demonic movement in North America that I've seen in years. Using a perverted form of Christianity, India religions and New Age beliefs he's been sweeping over Florida, getting thousands of people to be 'empowered by the fire' and donate hundreds of thousands of dollars to his "ministry". What's worse is he's specifically targeting the ICE demographic. He purposely tailors his clothing, wearing black shirt, baggy jeans, tattoos and piercings, he prefers grunge to Gucci. His message is aimed to the youth, appealing to the disenfranchisement we often feel with today's church. This hits close to home in even more ways. Lakeland is the center of Bentley's activities in Florida, an area close to Patrick. In fact, the Church of Patrick's own brother, Michael, is apparently being ensnared by Bentley's enticing words, from the leadership on down to Michael's own friends. Lastly, Bentley's home is in BC, here in Canada. This snake is slithering in my backyard. The enemy is getting more and more prevalent in North America as humanitarian spiritualism and it's ilk is becoming the more prevalent belief of many. Further down the road we'll start to see the demonic activity that we see in other European and African countries come home and the culling of believers happen. Fortunately, some churches and Christians have been catching on. Tons of websites and videos are being posted on the net warning believers and churches not to let this false prophet in. Unfortunately, much of the damage has already been done and we need to pray for God to heal people damaged by this movement of the enemy. Insane and unbelievable as his stories and movement is, there's thousands and thousands of people being mislead by this false prophet. Summary: +) Todd was abducted by 'angels' through a ‘portal pillar of fire’, locked down to a operating table, cut open with a buzz saw and stuffed full of white boxes containing ‘wisdom’ and ‘knowledge’ because God said "He didn't have time to prep a vessel". +) Todd was visited by two 'angels', one named Emma, who is eerily similar to the Japanese principality Emma-O "Lord of the Underworld". The other ‘angel’, not named, said it was bringing the "Winds of Change", this ‘angel’ is said to have relation to William Branham's ministry--a heretic and a false prophet who claimed he was the reincarnated Elijah and denied the Trinity. +) Todd says that God said that "the church already knows about Jesus, but they need to know The Angel", when asked about this Todd said that it's the ‘angel’ bringing the "Winds of Change". +) During Todd's 'empowerment' and 'anointing' of people his voice changes; darkening considerably, hissing, growling - classic demonic possession traits. +) When these people are 'anointed' or they get close to Todd they start to convulse and shake uncontrollably. I've seen people touched by the Holy Spirit for 8 years and I've never seen them act the way they do in the videos. It's very similar to the shaking demons do when Jesus casts them out (Mark 1:21-28 = Luke 4:31-37). People look like they're being smacked around, their faces filled not with peace but a mark of confusion. +) In the later stages of his "ministry" Todd seems to be focusing more on the youth, especially the 'hard to reach' punk/metal/goth youth. He shaves his head, gets arms full of tattoos and constantly wears black. He preaches that "if only I was clean shaved and better looking more people would listen to me" - classic youth entrapment statements. Pray that our youth won’t get sucked in. +) His MySpace (http://www.myspace.com/tdbentley) shows thousands of comments made by thousands of youths, adults and leaders saying that they've "brought the fire" back to their churches and the 'angels' have been empowering the church and it's people. He’s also been targeting many of the youth oriented music bands. Pray that these ‘on the edge’ bands in the Christian metal scene--those who preach where most don’t won’t to go--get sucked in. Pray for Todd, pray for those who believe in him and what he’s teaching. Pray that God will clean up his life and fix him up. Be on the lookout for more articles on this topic. Also see an article on Signs and Miracles: article Cool stuff.Patrick_{July 13, 2008
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If I can remember correctly when CS Lewis was drawing the parallel between Miracles of Jesus and what God upholds everyday in nature he had first classified them and was only talking about miracles that did in fact do this. In fact, I have finally managed to find the spot where he talks about it :-) He said the miracles of Jesus could be classified in two ways. The first way gave different classes of miracles such as healing, fertility, perfecting, reversals. The second way cut across the first and was broken into miracles of the "old" creation and the "new" creation. It was miracles of the old creation he saw as "the Divine Man focusing for us what the God of Nature has already done, on a larger scale." The first example he classifies as a miracle of the New Creation (ie not focusing what God already does in nature on a larger scale), was the miracle of walking on water. On an interesting note, he seemed to have placed miracles of "Healing" in the Old Creation section, suggesting that the idea of cancer healing vs genetic changing was well within the scope of the quote. In contrast, things like the resurrection and the class of miracles of "Reversals" fall into the category of the New Creation. However, I am thinking now, while specific miraculous healing might be focusing/reflecting the fact that it is God who heals on a grander scale in nature (and thus be confined to what does actually happen in nature), couldn't there exist restoration of our bodies reminding us that it is God who will finally bring us all into restoration?Tristan_{July 13, 2008
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The other day, when we were talking about the Catholic Eucharist, I stumbled upon this YouTube video about a priest with cancer. He seems to have been healed ... but not of his cancer. He also had a problem with his blood platelet level which prevented him from undergoing normal cancer treatment. A "healing minister" from his church (who I which had been interviewed) suggested that the next time the priest said mass, he should pay for healing. So at the consecration of the Precious Blood, the priest asked simply, "Jesus, I need a transfusion of your blood." I wonder if it is significant that he did not ask for a cure of his cancer, but simply for a cure of his blood platelet problem -- so that he could undergo cancer treatment? During his next visit to the hospital, when they analyzed his blood, the doctor came back and said "you have perfect blood!". As nullasalus says:
I think it is a fundamental mistake to say “God did not heal X, medicine did”
EndoplasmicMessenger_{July 13, 2008
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Interesting posts all. It got me thinking about the difference between divine creation and divine intervention. In some sense, we can say that all events in life are miraculous because of divine creation. But an event that is outside of the "Natural law" (as someone here stated} is divine intervention. Clearly scripture differentiates between the two. "In the beginning God...." is the real catalyst for all events, creative and intervening. It really clarifies for me when Jesus talks about the faith of a mustard seed and the faith to move mountains. That God created everything implies that God can intervene in anything. I read a recent article in Evolution News and Views over at Discovery.org, arguing for faith as the basis for finding cures for many cancers. The article used St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital as an example. St. Jude's (can anyone remember who the founder was, I can't remember - famous entertainer) - anyway, St. Jude's was started as an answer to fervent prayer. As such, St. Jude's provided a framework for cancer research, which resulted in some breakthroughs. Is this then a miracle, or is it merely the result of scientific research alone? Also, does a nation's lack of or diminishing involvement in prayer lead to economic and social deterioration? Is the miraculous involved in sustaining the social and economic stability of nations? The mind boggles.CannuckianYankee_{July 13, 2008
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Actually, I want to amend one thing I said. "In fact, we ourselves are explicitly called on to do God’s work - not by doing miracles, but by helping others, setting up hospitals, searching for cures." I'm not so certain that 'miracles' are things that people don't do. The whole philosophical/theological debate on miracles seems delicate to me, and very often abused by critics. From my perspective, the line between miracle (as in a work of God) and natural efforts of good (trying to heal the sick, feed the hungry, employing science towards these ends, etc) is blurry to say the least. Either way, thanks for the great post, Dr Dembski.nullasalus_{July 12, 2008
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It really annoys the living hell out of me during occasional times when people throw a false dilemma into discussions like this. Either something can be naturally explained, so it's not miraculous or... Something seems like so big a miracle there's no way the laws of physics would even allow it. So therefore it didn't happen. Sure sounds like that argument from ignorance we're always accused of committing. Since we're bringing up religion, here's something interesting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4210369.stm I guess this is what happens when you keep asking questions. Turns out the shroud might not be the medieval fraud people first claimed it was.F2XL_{July 12, 2008
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Excellent points, nullasalus. A wealthy society benefiting from a surplus in medical advances and capabilities can certainly be seen as an extension of God's grace.Apollos_{July 12, 2008
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I think it is a fundamental mistake to say "God did not heal X, medicine did" or even "God did not heal X, nature taking its course did" - even in instances where the medicine was used and worked, or the natural course was predicted by human knowledge and came to pass. Pigeonholing God's will exclusively into events where we don't know what specific mechanism was at work introduces a false dichotomy between God's will and God's creation. I also think it's a mistake for any person to pray for an out and out no-explanation, law-defying appearance of miracle. Is that what a person with cancer truly wants - and is that the only way God interacts with this world? If they undergo a treatment for cancer and it's successful, can they (heck, should they) turn around and say 'Well, looks like I didn't need God after all'? Is it only God's will when we're confused about mechanism? It reminds me of the old joke about the woman praying during a flood. Her neighbors offer to give her a ride to safety, and she refuses because she's sure God will save her. The flood level rises, and some people in a boat come by and offer to give her a rise to safety. Again she declines, because she's sure God will save her. Finally she's on the roof of her house and a helicopter flies by, offering to lift her to safety. She refuses, confident God will save her. Well, she drowns. And when she sees God she asks Him 'Why didn't you save me?' He responds, "What are you talking about? I sent you a car, a boat, and a helicopter." Humor aside, I think the story introduces an important point. God's will is not exclusively "events for which we have no other natural explanation", and the Judeo-Christian God has never been a God who only relies on such. In fact, we ourselves are explicitly called on to do God's work - not by doing miracles, but by helping others, setting up hospitals, searching for cures. This isn't to say we should rule out appeals to the unknown or unexpected when we're desperate. But we should know what we're asking for, and know how God can respond - and know how, ultimately, our will is and should be submissive to God's, and what that entails. (Just how I see things, mind you. Please don't take this as lecturing to anyone here.)nullasalus_{July 12, 2008
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