On Orange Gods and the One Apple God

_{Barry Arrington

October 19, 2014

Off Topic}

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This morning a friend said she had recently heard an atheist make the “I am atheistic about just one more god than you are” argument. Ricky Gervais makes the argument this way:

So next time someone tells me they believe in God, I’ll say “Oh which one? Zeus? Hades? Jupiter? Mars? Odin? Thor? Krishna? Vishnu? Ra?…” If they say “Just God. I only believe in the one God,” I’ll point out that they are nearly as atheistic as me. I don’t believe in 2,870 gods, and they don’t believe in 2,869.

Like many things the new atheists say, the argument has a kind of first blush plausibility but does not hold up on even a moment’s reflection. As David Bentley Hart explains in The Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss, Gervais has made a glaring category error by lumping the God of the three great monotheistic faiths in with other “gods”:

according to the classical metaphysical traditions of both the East and West, God is the unconditioned cause of reality – of absolutely everything that is – from the beginning to the end of time. Understood in this way, one can’t even say that God “exists” in the sense that my car or Mount Everest or electrons exist. God is what grounds the existence of every contingent thing, making it possible, sustaining it through time, unifying it, giving it actuality. God is the condition of the possibility of anything existing at all.

Properly understood, the God of the monotheistic faiths is not like the gods in the Greek, Norse or Indian pantheons – contingent creatures all. He is pure being that is the source of all being. He is the necessary being, and by definition there can be only one necessary being. The necessary being cannot be compared to contingent beings. To lump the God of the monotheistic faiths in with Odin demonstrates that you understand neither God nor Odin.

Think of it this way. Gervais says in essense: “There are a bunch of oranges, and I disbelieve in all of the oranges without exception. You are little different from me because you admit that you also disbelieve in all of the oranges, except for that last little orange that you irrationally insist on clinging to.” No, Ricky, just like you I disbelieve in all of the oranges without exception. But I do believe in an apple. Why should I stop believing in an apple just because I don’t believe in oranges?

Comments

Turbokid wrote:
Dionisio, so you don’t believe that Allah is the same God as Jesus Christ?
Assertion: Your statement demonstrates ignorance of Islam and Christianity. Support: 1. According to the Qur'an, Isa (Jesus) Ibn Maryam (the son of Mary) is a Messenger of Allah and al-Masih (the Messiah) to guide the Children of Israel. As a Prophet of Allah, he is therefore not Allah. 2. According to the B'rit Chadashah, the new covenant, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." He also said, "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." 3. Dionisio is a Christian, so he believes in 2. -QQuerius_{October 19, 2014
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Turbokid, that's an interesting question. Thank you for asking it. What exactly do you want to know? Why do you want to know? Are you interested in looking for the ultimate absolute truth? I'm not a reliable source of information on any subject. But I definitely can enjoy sharing what I know and what I believe in. Have you read the Bible? Both Old and New Testaments? I believe there's only one God and He loves you and wants to have a personal relationship with you. Why do I say this? Because I believe God loves me, He has proved it to me exceedingly. Also I believe you are much better than I am.Dionisio_{October 19, 2014
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Distinguished professor Stephen Hawking allegedly said that 'heaven is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark' Professor John Lennox commented: 'atheism is a fairy tale for those afraid of the Light' :)Dionisio_{October 19, 2014
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Turbokid- Do you have reading comprehension issues?Joe_{October 19, 2014
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Dionisio, so you don't believe that Allah is the same God as Jesus Christ?Turbokid_{October 19, 2014
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Ok, here it goes again: сказки Let's see if it shows up right this time. Please, forgive my clumsiness. :)Dionisio_{October 19, 2014
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I don’t believe in 2,870 gods, and they don’t believe in 2,869.
Actually, this guy is way way off in his numbers. In Japan they have a phrase meaning 8 million gods. This is part of Shintoism, so he is just a little misguided. And that is before counting all the gods of other countries in the world. The whole idea of the atheist rejecting just one more god than Christians do is also logically unsound. Just because 9 out of 10 hamburgers are burnt does not automatically mean the 10 unopened hamburger is also burnt. It is an unscientific statement. Plus it ignores all the evidence of God and the experience of millions of people. The other gods have no such support. It truly is apples and oranges, but that will never convince people who don't want to believe in God.tjguy_{October 19, 2014
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Barry, Please, can you remove posts 18 and 19? Thank you.Dionisio_{October 19, 2014
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??????Dionisio_{October 19, 2014
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Sorry, the Russian word did not show up right in Cyrillic alphabet. It sounds something like 'skazki'Dionisio_{October 19, 2014
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For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
[1 Timothy 2:5-6 (ESV)] That's VERITAS, regardless of whether we like it or not. Everything else falls into a popular literary category known in Polish language as 'bajki' and in Russian language '??????'Dionisio_{October 19, 2014
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"Every man who knocks on the door of a brothel is looking for God," - Chestertonringo_{October 19, 2014
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Many of the arguments made my atheist are really great arguments to support that their must be a God. If God has created man in his own image then it makes sense that deep inside all of us is this yearning to find that something greater than ourselves; a higher power or a creator God of some sort. Even those who say they do not have a higher power are they themselves their higher power. But that is a big mistake! That is why you see so many of these professors (or sometimes called "intellectual predators") that insist they are the "giver of knowledge" and that they are "all knowing". We all do this in some way or another. There is power in knowledge and the temptation to create our own kingdoms and live on our own thrones (the university) is almost addictive in some sense.ringo_{October 19, 2014
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So the God of Islam is the same as the God of Christianity is the same as the Jewish God?
Yes the God of Abraham is the God of all three of those religions. And Abraham is the patriarch of all three of those religions.Joe_{October 19, 2014
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CalvinsBulldog:
The God of the Bible is not “all-compassionate”, and I would argue the same is true for the God of Islam, although the Qu’ran uses that description of Allah.
Neither is he all powerful and all knowing. He did not know man was going to fail. He also showed regrets on occasion and had to look back at his creation before deciding that it was very good, although not perfect. On another tangent, the old testament God, Yahweh, did acknowledge the existence of many other gods. In fact, it is reported that, at one point, the nations of the world were a free for all. Different gods chose different nations and Yahweh "chose Israel as his portion". Some of the other gods apparently were complete a-holes requiring regular human sacrifices. We even read that Yahweh was jealous of the other gods when Israel started behaving like a "whore", i.e., worshiping Assyrian and other Gods. Just saying.Mapou_{October 19, 2014
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turbokid, Fear has its benefits. Even a Darwinist would agree. Ok to cry too. Just a little though, not too much. Wimp.ppolish_{October 19, 2014
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"Why would anyone fear an eternity of torment if the God is all-compassionate?" The God of the Bible is not "all-compassionate", and I would argue the same is true for the God of Islam, although the Qu'ran uses that description of Allah. The term "all compassionate" suggests that all other characteristics of God are irrelevant, or are subsumed by compassion. But God has revealed himself to possess perfection in a range of characteristics, none of which destroy any of the others. Together, this perfection and purity takes the word "holy".CalvinsBulldog_{October 19, 2014
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This is like astronomers finding a pile of sophisticated machinery on Mars... They don't know who made it... So... they must come to the "obvious conclusion" all Darwinist MUST come to... It is their 11th commandment; we don't who did it so it either evolved or by some lucky accident came into existence... Evidence=0, experimental evidence-1 or less... These people continue lying to themselves.... for what...?Quest_{October 19, 2014
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Why would anyone fear an eternity of torment if the God is all-compassionate?Turbokid_{October 19, 2014
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@ Turbokid #5: Yes. What differs is our respective perceptions of its nature. All three agree on his omniscience, omnipotence and all-compassionate nature; although embittered atheists who fear being condemned to an eternity of torment, but love their sex lives that bit more, tend to disagree. Being the fallen creature that man is, religious cultures are not exempt from degeneration. On the contrary. However, the Catholic Church for all that it has at various times been the poster-child for such degeneracy, has always, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, been able to renew and purify itself; perhaps never more so than today.Axel_{October 19, 2014
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'Like many things the new atheists say, the argument has a kind of first blush plausibility but does not hold up on even a moment’s reflection.' - homerj1 Their ingenuousness is sometimes breathtaking, even by their own riotous standards, homerj1. The barmy 'concept' of 'convergent' evolution doesn't even hold up at first blush. It's just designating it with a superficially- descriptive name, without investing it with the remotest hint of an explanation.Axel_{October 19, 2014
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So the God of Islam is the same as the God of Christianity is the same as the Jewish God?Turbokid_{October 19, 2014
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In most Religions, "after life" is an evolved form. Higher level of Being. A Soul. Atheists don't understand Evolution?ppolish_{October 19, 2014
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Choosing a Religion is an important choice. Inspired choice. Intelligent choice. Choosing one is very different from not choosing. You have to play to win. Odds are pretty good, payoff is pretty good too. Not choosing (Atheist) is loser from the get go.ppolish_{October 19, 2014
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Surprisingly, the bible does acknowledge that there are literally 1000s upon 1000s of other gods. Not all are of an intelligent entity variety.For example: Philippians 3:19 James Version (KJV) 19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things." This opens the door for acknowledging Darwin, Evolution, Atheism, etc as gods. Of course the bible only speaks of one true God. Still, their stupid asinine cleverness isn't so novel nor a modern day intellectual argument after all. It's all be done and tried 1000s of years ago and failed even then.DavidD_{October 19, 2014
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Ugh. Such poor logic. It shows how desperately they want to rebel against God. Romans 1 poster children. I just respond, "Yes, and a bachelor is virtually identical to a married man with respect to matrimony. He has just married one less person."homerj1_{October 19, 2014
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