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ID Foundations, 17: Stephen C. Meyer’s summary of the positive inductive logic case for design as best explanation of the FSCO/I* in DNA

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(Prev. : No 16
F/N: 17a, here)

*NB: For those new to UD, FSCO/I means: Functionally Specific Complex Organisation and/or associated Information

From time to time, we need to refocus our attention on foundational issues relating to the positive case for inferring design as best explanation for certain phenomena connected to origins of the cosmos, life and body plans. It is therefore worth the while to excerpt an addition I just made to the IOSE Introduction and Summary page, HT CR, by way of an excerpt from Meyer’s reply to Falk’s hostile review of Signature in the Cell.

In addition, given all too commonly seen basic problems with first principles of right reasoning among objectors to design theory [–> cf. here and here at UD recently . . . ], it will help to add immediately following remarks from the IOSE, on Newton’s four rules of inductive, scientific reasoning, and Avi Sion’s observations on inductive logic.

I trust the below will therefore help to correct many of the widely circulated strawman caricatures of the core reasoning and warrant behind the theory of intelligent design and its pivotal design inference. At least, for those willing to heed duties of care to accuracy, truth, fairness and responsible comment:

________________

>> ID thinker Stephen Meyer argues in his response to a hostile review of his key 2009 Design Theory book, Signature in the Cell:

The central argument of my book is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . .  In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion]  Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . . .

The central problem facing origin-of-life researchers is neither the synthesis of pre-biotic building blocks (which Sutherland’s work addresses) or even the synthesis of a self-replicating RNA molecule (the plausibility of which Joyce and Tracey’s work seeks to establish, albeit unsuccessfully . . . [[Meyer gives details in the linked page]). Instead, the fundamental problem is getting the chemical building blocks to arrange themselves into the large information-bearing molecules (whether DNA or RNA) . . . .

For nearly sixty years origin-of-life researchers have attempted to use pre-biotic simulation experiments to find a plausible pathway by which life might have arisen from simpler non-living chemicals, thereby providing support for chemical evolutionary theory.  While these experiments have occasionally yielded interesting insights about the conditions under which certain reactions will or won’t produce the various small molecule constituents of larger bio-macromolecules, they have shed no light on how the information in these larger macromolecules (particularly in DNA and RNA) could have arisen.  Nor should this be surprising in light of what we have long known about the chemical structure of DNA and RNA.  As I show in Signature in the Cell, the chemical structures of DNA and RNA allow them to store information precisely because chemical affinities between their smaller molecular subunits do not determine the specific arrangements of the bases in the DNA and RNA molecules.  Instead, the same type of chemical bond (an N-glycosidic bond) forms between the backbone and each one of the four bases, allowing any one of the bases to attach at any site along the backbone, in turn allowing an innumerable variety of different sequences.  This chemical indeterminacy is precisely what permits DNA and RNA to function as information carriers.  It also dooms attempts to account for the origin of the information—the precise sequencing of the bases—in these molecules as the result of deterministic chemical interactions . . . .

[[W]e now have a wealth of experience showing that what I call specified or functional information (especially if encoded in digital form) does not arise from purely physical or chemical antecedents [[–> i.e. by blind, undirected forces of chance and necessity].  Indeed, the ribozyme engineering and pre-biotic simulation experiments that Professor Falk commends to my attention actually lend additional inductive support to this generalization.  On the other hand, we do know of a cause—a type of cause—that has demonstrated the power to produce functionally-specified information.  That cause is intelligence or conscious rational deliberation.  As the pioneering information theorist Henry Quastler once observed, “the creation of information is habitually associated with conscious activity.” And, of course, he was right. Whenever we find information—whether embedded in a radio signal, carved in a stone monument, written in a book or etched on a magnetic disc—and we trace it back to its source, invariably we come to mind, not merely a material process.  Thus, the discovery of functionally specified, digitally encoded information along the spine of DNA, provides compelling positive evidence of the activity of a prior designing intelligence.  This conclusion is not based upon what we don’t know.  It is based upon what we do know from our uniform experience about the cause and effect structure of the world—specifically, what we know about what does, and does not, have the power to produce large amounts of specified information . . . .

[[In conclusion,] it needs to be noted that the [[now commonly asserted and imposed limiting rule on scientific knowledge, the] principle of methodological naturalism [[ that scientific explanations may only infer to “natural[[istic] causes”] is an arbitrary philosophical assumption, not a principle that can be established or justified by scientific observation itself.  Others of us, having long ago seen the pattern in pre-biotic simulation experiments, to say nothing of the clear testimony of thousands of years of human experience, have decided to move on.  We see in the information-rich structure of life a clear indicator of intelligent activity and have begun to investigate living systems accordingly. If, by Professor Falk’s definition, that makes us philosophers rather than scientists, then so be it.  But I suspect that the shoe is now, instead, firmly on the other foot. [[Meyer, Stephen C: Response to Darrel Falk’s Review of Signature in the Cell, SITC web site, 2009. (Emphases and parentheses added.)]

Thus, in the context of a pivotal example — the functionally specific, complex information stored in the well-known genetic code — we see laid out the inductive logic and empirical basis for design theory as a legitimate (albeit obviously controversial) scientific investigation and conclusion.

It is worth the pause to (courtesy the US NIH) lay out a diagram of what is at stake here:

Fig I.0: DNA as a stored code exhibiting functionally specific complex digital information (HT: NIH)

In this context — to understand the kind of scientific reasoning involved and its history, it is also worth pausing to excerpt Newton’s Rules of [[Inductive] Reasoning in [[Natural] Philosophy which he used to introduce the Universal Law of Gravitation. In turn, this — then controversial (action at a distance? why? . . . ) — law was in effect generalised from the falling of apples on Earth and the deduced rule that also explained the orbital force of the Moon, and thence Kepler’s mathematically stated empirical laws of planetary motion. So, Newton needed to render plausible how he projected universality:

Rule I [[–> adequacy and simplicity]

We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true [[–> it is probably best to take this liberally as meaning “potentially and plausibly true”] and sufficient to explain their appearances.

To this purpose the philosophers say that Nature does nothing in vain, and more is in vain when less will serve; for Nature is pleased with simplicity, and affects not the pomp of superfluous causes.

Rule II [[–> uniformity of causes: “like forces cause like effects”]

Therefore to the same natural effects we must, as far as possible, assign the same causes.

As to respiration in a man and in a beast; the descent of stones in Europe and in America; the light of our culinary fire and of the sun; the reflection of light in the earth, and in the planets.

Rule III [[–> confident universality]

The qualities of bodies, which admit neither intensification nor remission of degrees, and which are found to belong to all bodies within the reach of our experiments, are to be esteemed the universal qualities of all bodies whatsoever.

For since the qualities of bodies are only known to us by experiments, we are to hold for universal all such as universally agree with experiments; and such as are not liable to diminution can never be quite taken away. We are certainly not to relinquish the evidence of experiments for the sake of dreams and vain fictions of our own devising; nor are we to recede from the analogy of Nature, which is wont to be simple, and always consonant to [398/399] itself . . . .

Rule IV [[–> provisionality and primacy of induction]

In experimental philosophy we are to look upon propositions inferred by general induction from phenomena as accurately or very nearly true, notwithstanding any contrary hypotheses that may be imagined, till such time as other phenomena occur, by which they may either be made more accurate, or liable to exceptions.

This rule we must follow, that the arguments of induction may not be evaded by [[speculative] hypotheses.

In effect Newton advocated for provisional, empirically tested, reliable and adequate inductive principles resting on “simple” summaries or explanatory constructs.  These were to be as accurate to reality as we experience it, as we can get it, i.e. a scientific theory seeks to be true to our world, provisional though it must be. They rest on induction from patterns of observed phenomena and through Rule II — on “like causes like” — were to be confidently projected to cases where we do not observe directly, subject to correction on further observations, not impositions of speculative metaphysical notions.

Since inductive reasoning that leads to provisionally inferred general patterns itself is now being deemed suspect in some quarters, it may help to note as follows from Avi Sion, on what he descriptively calls the principle of universality:

We might . . . ask – can there be a world without any ‘uniformities’? A world of universal difference, with no two things the same in any respect whatever is unthinkable. Why? Because to so characterize the world would itself be an appeal to uniformity. A uniformly non-uniform world is a contradiction in terms.

Therefore, we must admit some uniformity to exist in the world.

The world need not be uniform throughout, for the principle of uniformity to apply. It suffices that some uniformity occurs.

Given this degree of uniformity, however small, we logically can and must talk about generalization and particularization. There happens to be some ‘uniformities’; therefore, we have to take them into consideration in our construction of knowledge. The principle of uniformity is thus not a wacky notion, as Hume seems to imply . . . .

The uniformity principle is not a generalization of generalization; it is not a statement guilty of circularity, as some critics contend. So what is it? Simply this: when we come upon some uniformity in our experience or thought, we may readily assume that uniformity to continue onward until and unless we find some evidence or reason that sets a limit to it. Why? Because in such case the assumption of uniformity already has a basis, whereas the contrary assumption of difference has not or not yet been found to have any. The generalization has some justification; whereas the particularization has none at all, it is an arbitrary assertion.

It cannot be argued that we may equally assume the contrary assumption (i.e. the proposed particularization) on the basis that in past events of induction other contrary assumptions have turned out to be true (i.e. for which experiences or reasons have indeed been adduced) – for the simple reason that such a generalization from diverse past inductions is formally excluded by the fact that we know of many cases [[of inferred generalisations; try: “we can make mistakes in inductive generalisation . . . “] that have not been found worthy of particularization to date . . . .

If we follow such sober inductive logic, devoid of irrational acts, we can be confident to have the best available conclusions in the present context of knowledge. We generalize when the facts allow it, and particularize when the facts necessitate it. We do not particularize out of context, or generalize against the evidence or when this would give rise to contradictions . . .[[Logical and Spiritual Reflections, BK I Hume’s Problems with Induction, Ch 2 The principle of induction.]>>

_________________

In short, there is a definite positive case for design, and it pivots on what I have descriptively termed functionally specific complex organisation and associated information (FSCO/I) — and no, the concept is plainly not just an idiosyncratic notion of a no-account bloggist, but has demonstrable roots tracing to OOL researchers such as Wicken, Orgel and Hoyle across the 1970’s and into the early 1980’s; i.e. before design theory surfaced in response to such findings (another strawman bites  the dust . . . ) — and its only known causally adequate source.

In addition, that design inference can be summarised in a flowchart of the scientific investigatory procedure, as for instance was discussed as the very first post in the ID Foundations series at UD, over two years ago:

The per aspect explanatory filter that shows how design may be inferred on empirically tested, reliable sign

The result of this can also be summarised in a quantitative expression, as has been repeatedly highlighted, here again excerpting IOSE:

xix: Later on (2005), Dembski provided a slightly more complex formula, that we can quote and simplify, showing that it boils down to a “bits from a zone of interest [[in a wider field of possibilities] beyond a reasonable threshold of complexity” metric:

χ = – log2[10^120 ·ϕS(T)·P(T|H)].

–> χ is “chi” and ϕ is “phi”

xx: To simplify and build a more “practical” mathematical model, we note that information theory researchers Shannon and Hartley showed us how to measure information by changing probability into a log measure that allows pieces of information to add up naturally:

Ip = – log p, in bits if the base is 2. That is where the now familiar unit, the bit, comes from. Where we may observe from say — as just one of many examples of a standard result — Principles of Comm Systems, 2nd edn, Taub and Schilling (McGraw Hill, 1986), p. 512, Sect. 13.2:

Let us consider a communication system in which the allowable messages are m1, m2, . . ., with probabilities of occurrence p1, p2, . . . . Of course p1 + p2 + . . . = 1. Let the transmitter select message mk of probability pk; let us further assume that the receiver has correctly identified the message [[–> My nb: i.e. the a posteriori probability in my online discussion here is 1]. Then we shall say, by way of definition of the term information, that the system has communicated an amount of information Ik given by

I_k = (def) log_2  1/p_k   (13.2-1)

xxi: So, since 10^120 ~ 2^398, we may “boil down” the Dembski metric using some algebra — i.e. substituting and simplifying the three terms in order — as log(p*q*r) = log(p) + log(q ) + log(r) and log(1/p) = – log (p):

Chi = – log2(2^398 * D2 * p), in bits,  and where also D2 = ϕS(T)
Chi = Ip – (398 + K2), where now: log2 (D2 ) = K
That is, chi is a metric of bits from a zone of interest, beyond a threshold of “sufficient complexity to not plausibly be the result of chance,”  (398 + K2).  So,
(a) since (398 + K2) tends to at most 500 bits on the gamut of our solar system [[our practical universe, for chemical interactions! ( . . . if you want , 1,000 bits would be a limit for the observable cosmos)] and
(b) as we can define and introduce a dummy variable for specificity, S, where
(c) S = 1 or 0 according as the observed configuration, E, is on objective analysis specific to a narrow and independently describable zone of interest, T:

Chi =  Ip*S – 500, in bits beyond a “complex enough” threshold

  • NB: If S = 0, this locks us at Chi = – 500; and, if Ip is less than 500 bits, Chi will be negative even if S is positive.
  • E.g.: a string of 501 coins tossed at random will have S = 0, but if the coins are arranged to spell out a message in English using the ASCII code [[notice independent specification of a narrow zone of possible configurations, T], Chi will — unsurprisingly — be positive.
  • S goes to 1 when we have objective grounds — to be explained case by case — to assign that value.
  • That is, we need to justify why we think the observed cases E come from a narrow zone of interest, T, that is independently describable, not just a list of members E1, E2, E3 . . . ; in short, we must have a reasonable criterion that allows us to build or recognise cases Ei from T, without resorting to an arbitrary list.
  • A string at random is a list with one member, but if we pick it as a password, it is now a zone with one member.  (Where also, a lottery, is a sort of inverse password game where we pay for the privilege; and where the complexity has to be carefully managed to make it winnable. )
  • An obvious example of such a zone T, is code symbol strings of a given length that work in a programme or communicate meaningful statements in a language based on its grammar, vocabulary etc. This paragraph is a case in point, which can be contrasted with typical random strings ( . . . 68gsdesnmyw . . . ) or repetitive ones ( . . . ftftftft . . . ); where we can also see by this case how such a case can enfold random and repetitive sub-strings.
  • Arguably — and of course this is hotly disputed — DNA protein and regulatory codes are another. Design theorists argue that the only observed adequate cause for such is a process of intelligently directed configuration, i.e. of  design, so we are justified in taking such a case as a reliable sign of such a cause having been at work. (Thus, the sign then counts as evidence pointing to a perhaps otherwise unknown designer having been at work.)
  • So also, to overthrow the design inference, a valid counter example would be needed, a case where blind mechanical necessity and/or blind chance produces such functionally specific, complex information. (Points xiv – xvi above outline why that will be hard indeed to come up with. There are literally billions of cases where FSCI is observed to come from design.)

xxii: So, we have some reason to suggest that if something, E, is based on specific information describable in a way that does not just quote E and requires at least 500 specific bits to store the specific information, then the most reasonable explanation for the cause of E is that it was designed. The metric may be directly applied to biological cases:

Using Durston’s Fits values — functionally specific bits — from his Table 1, to quantify I, so also  accepting functionality on specific sequences as showing specificity giving S = 1, we may apply the simplified Chi_500 metric of bits beyond the threshold:
RecA: 242 AA, 832 fits, Chi: 332 bits beyond
SecY: 342 AA, 688 fits, Chi: 188 bits beyond
Corona S2: 445 AA, 1285 fits, Chi: 785 bits beyond

xxiii: And, this raises the controversial question that biological examples such as DNA — which in a living cell is much more complex than 500 bits — may be designed to carry out particular functions in the cell and the wider organism.

So, there is no good reason to pretend that there is no positive or cogent case that has been advanced for design theory, or that FSCO/I — however summarised — is not a key aspect of such a case, or that there is no proper way to quantify the case or express it as an operational scientific procedure.

And of course, lurking in the background is the now over six months old unanswered 6,000 word free- kick- at- goal Darwinist essay challenge on OOL and origin of major body plans.

However, with these now in play, let us hope (against all signs from the habitual patterns we have seen) that  a more positive discussion on the merits can now ensue. END

Comments
Box, re: 36:
What if we were to find a 700 million years old abandoned spaceship. In this spaceship are, amongst other things, computers, libraries, furnished rooms with pictures on the wall of this and many other solar systems. Will science infer design? Or is the only valid scientific response to the question of origins: “We don’t know”?
Very clever. But it is an entirely different question. An atheist who rejects the possibility of non-embodied intelligence would have no trouble attributing the artifacts you describe to an ancient, embodied, alien race. If one takes that "out" with respect to OOL, however, it only pushes back the question, because eventually life, complete with FSCI, must have arisen absent an alien, embodied designer. And then the question of the ultimate design of life turns on acceptance of the possibility of non-embodied intelligence, a metaphysical, not a scientific, question.Bruce David
April 8, 2013
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@Bruce David What if we were to find a 700 million years old abandoned spaceship. In this spaceship are, amongst other things, computers, libraries, furnished rooms with pictures on the wall of this and many other solar systems. Will science infer design? Or is the only valid scientific response to the question of origins: “We don’t know”?Box
April 8, 2013
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KF:
And the point is, humans don’t exhaust the list of credibly possible designers. KF
I disagree. The point is whether or not the statement "humans physically embodied beings don’t exhaust the list of credibly possible designers." is properly a scientific statement. I claim it is not. Rather, it is properly a metaphysical statement, one that must be answered before one accepts or rejects Meyers' reasoning.Bruce David
April 8, 2013
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BD: I think uniformity is more relevant. And the point is, humans don't exhaust the list of credibly possible designers. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2013
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KF, re. #32:
BD: Do you have reason to believe that humans as we observe exhaust the class of possible intelligent agents? If not, your suggestion falls apart. KF
Did you actually read what I wrote? The question I am posing is not whether the inference to design is warranted. Rather, it is whether the inference is valid under Uniformitarianism, as Stephen Meyer claims. The answer does not hinge on whether I believe "that humans as we observe exhaust the class of possible intelligent agents". It hinges on whether or not that is a valid scientific conclusion. And I submit that an atheist who held that human intelligence is entirely explained by our (material) brains could argue validly that we have no evidence whatsoever that any creature with a similar brain existed at that time, and even if one did, the problem of accounting for FCSI would simply be pushed back to explaining the origin of that brain. Therefore, my hypothetical atheist would say, the action of an intelligent agent is not a valid explanation for the the origin and subsequent evolution of life, based on Uniformitariansim, and (since my hypothetical atheist possesses intellectual integrity) therefore the only valid scientific response to the question of origins is "We don't know." The acceptance of the possibility of the existence of disembodied intelligence(s) capable of affecting the physical universe is a prerequisite for accepting the action of an intelligent agent as the "best explanation" for the existence of FSCI in living things. But, I submit, this is not a scientific premise; it is a metaphysical one.Bruce David
April 8, 2013
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BD: Do you have reason to believe that humans as we observe exhaust the class of possible intelligent agents? If not, your suggestion falls apart. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2013
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Bruce David @30, I think you are asking good questions. I don't think there's necessarily an infinite regress problem. Unless you're actually trying to make the leap to theism, then I'm not sure infinite regress applies. It may "push the problem back" to discover that aliens seeded life on this planet, but it would be no less true that aliens seeded life on this planet regardless of whether you could explain the aliens by material or intelligent or supernatural causes.Chance Ratcliff
April 7, 2013
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Eric, re. 29:
Keep in mind that the historical sciences are about inferring the best explanation. We know for a fact that at least one type of intelligent agent can and does regularly account for CSI. So if the other known causes (purely natural causes) do not, then we are still perfectly justified in concluding that the “best” explanation for discovered CSI is that some kind of intelligent agency was involved.
Well, it's a good point, and one I can't really argue with too strongly, since I agree with the conclusion myself. :) But I imagine a convinced atheist would counter that the one "type" of intelligent agent we know of is intelligent by virtue of this material brain that they (we) possess, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that any other beings with similarly capable brains would have been around at that time, unless of course they were members of an alien race. But then of course we have the familiar infinite regress problem---we have to explain how the FSCI in their brains came about, etc. And being a materialist, he or she would reject out of hand the possibility of any kind of disembodied intelligence. So I imagine that he or she would say that an intelligent agent is not the best explanation at all, and, were they honest, would have to conclude that there is no viable explanation for the origin of life and its subsequent development, i.e. we do not know.Bruce David
April 7, 2013
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Thanks, David. Couple of thoughts: I understand your concern that referring to humans as intelligent agents includes an implication that there may be entities other than humans in the category of "intelligent agents." Certainly many people think there are other intelligent agents, whether one is thinking of God, aliens, or even some animals with a certain capacity of intelligence (I think it is UB who talks about beavers building dams; I'm not yet convinced about his example, but it is there, for whatever it is worth). So the question is whether "intelligent agents" is a legitimate category. Meyer is not arguing that humans had anything to do with the origin of life, of course; rather he is referring to categories of cause. And uniformitarianism applies every bit as much to natural forces as it does to intelligent agents. So even if we take the extremely strict view that uniformitarianism can apply intelligence only to humans, and even if we assume humans were not around at the time,* we can still apply uniformitarianism to natural forces and conclude that they were not responsible for OOL. In that case, I presume you would state that from a scientific standpoint we must conclude that we do not know. However, we need not do any such thing. Keep in mind that the historical sciences are about inferring the best explanation. We know for a fact that at least one type of intelligent agent can and does regularly account for CSI. So if the other known causes (purely natural causes) do not, then we are still perfectly justified in concluding that the "best" explanation for discovered CSI is that some kind of intelligent agency was involved. No, it is not a deduction. No, we may not have independent corroborating evidence of another sample of intelligent agents (as I mentioned, this is disputable, but let's for a moment say this is the case for argument's sake). But intelligent agency is still the "best" explanation and we are perfectly justified in concluding that this is the case. Now someone can still take a selectively hyperskeptical stance and say, "Yes, but we don't know that there are other types of intelligent agents." Fine. We all get that. We don't have to know. That is why it is an inference. So it would seem there is little justification for taking an ultra-strict reading of uniformitarianism and claiming that it can apply only to humans. Uniformitarianism is about classes of causes -- whether natural or intelligently caused. And it is indeed the case that we know of the bounds (both temporal and spatial) of intelligent agents by discovering their artifacts. ----- * I hesitate to mention this footnote because I don't take it too seriously myself and don't want to get off in the weeds, but your contention that we "know for certain" humans were not around at the time is itself a bit questionable, at least if we are going to take an ultra-strict approach to definitions, like you are doing with uniformitarianism. First, there is the fun idea of time travel -- you know, Captain Picard traveling back in time to the formation of first life and himself being responsible for preventing or allowing it (great episode, by the way). Absurd; unrealistic? Sure. But time travel with its paradoxes is probably no more outrageous than the multiverse or whatever other materialist explanation is often proposed with a straight face. Second, on a more serious note, your definition of "humans" is based on an understanding that is in substance something like: "hominids similar to homo sapiens and its immediate predecessors who lived on planet Earth, no earlier than x million years ago." While most might agree with that kind of definition as a practical matter, in the current context it actually becomes somewhat circular. After all, your primary concern seems to be solely one of *when* designers are known to exist. Yet the designers you admit exist are simply defined as not existing at the time of the event in question. In contrast, one could certainly take a more expansive definition, say: "any intelligent hominid-like creature existing at any time on any planet anywhere in the galaxy." Suddenly it is less clear that "we know for a fact" that they didn't exist at the time of OOL on the earth. It bears repeating: The chain of discovery does not demand that we have to know an intelligent agent, such as humans, existed at a particular place and time and then we get to discover their artifacts. Rather, it is precisely because of the artifacts left behind that we know when and where intelligent agents, including humans, have been present.Eric Anderson
April 7, 2013
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Eric, re. #26:
Before responding in more detail I just want to make sure I’m understanding you. Are you saying that (according your strict understanding of uniformitarianism): 1. We can’t infer design in biology because we don’t have present evidence of humans being capable of designing biological systems? or 2. We can’t infer design in biology because we don’t know that humans were around at the time in question?
Actually, it's a stronger version of number 2: To say that our "consistent and uniform experience" tells us that an intelligent agent is always the cause of FSCI hides the fact that our experience is always that a human being is such a cause. It's not that we "don’t know that humans were around at the time in question". Rather it's that we know for certain that they were not. The cause of FSCI that we observe in the present era (a human being) simply did not exist during most of the time in which life originated and diversified. Therefore we cannot attribute the cause of the FSCI that we observe in living organisms to any presently known and experienced cause at all, and Uniformitarianism does not apply.
Incidentally, I do hope you also can see that even if uniformitarianism is rejected as a basis for the design inference it does not mean that a conclusion of design is extra-scientific.
I disagree with you here, because Meyer puts forward Uniformitarianism as the scientific method used in the historical sciences, and I know of no other. So if Uniformitarianism fails, then the only scientific method that applies in this case fails, and any conclusions we draw, while they may be quite valid (and I in fact believe that they are), fall outside the purview of science proper even though they are based on scientific understanding.
Meyer points to uniformitarianism as a rational basis for considering design as a live possibility; he has certainly never argued that the specific designers we see today were the same designers that existed at the time life was first created, so he hasn’t invoked uniformitarianism in that sense.
No he doesn't so argue, but my contention is that his formulation obscures the issue. He generalizes "human being" to "intelligent agent" and argues that we observe FSCI being produced by "intelligent agents" rather than human beings, which allows him to claim that Uniformitarianism applies, where in my view it does not. Don't get me wrong. I have a very high regard for Stephen Meyer. I just think he is mistaken in this particular attempt to apply historical scientific method. I would love to have the opportunity to discuss this point with him in person.Bruce David
April 6, 2013
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I also have a problem with this inference a tad bit also(conceding with Bruce). I think SETI is the only good example of the sciences using the inference in way in which Meyer's uses it. I don't think using human designed objects to posit that humans existed early than thought is a justification for Meyer's inference though. We know the kind of objects primitive humans designed because we know first that humans designed them, therefore if we see those kind of objects further back in history, it's reasonable that the age is pushed back. However, if we found an Ipad in the same layer that we find such designed objects (from primitive humans) we wouldn't assume that Apple is older than they say they are! I think it would be rightly assumed that someone probably buried it there. It seems the extrapolation stops at some point with reference to dating human beings. I happen to disagree that the inference is unwarranted, I would say, if anything, it's on the weak side, BUT I think once we start to see more benefits and innovation come from the science through the design paradigm, I think that will strength the argument without needing to strengthen the inference itself.ForJah
April 6, 2013
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Bruce: Before responding in more detail I just want to make sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying that (according your strict understanding of uniformitarianism): 1. We can't infer design in biology because we don't have present evidence of humans being capable of designing biological systems? or 2. We can't infer design in biology because we don't know that humans were around at the time in question? ----- Incidentally, I do hope you also can see that even if uniformitarianism is rejected as a basis for the design inference it does not mean that a conclusion of design is extra-scientific. All it would mean is that you are rejecting uniformitarianism as a basis for the inference. Meyer points to uniformitarianism as a rational basis for considering design as a live possibility; he has certainly never argued that the specific designers we see today were the same designers that existed at the time life was first created, so he hasn't invoked uniformitarianism in that sense. Further, there are multiple lines of evidence for design, so even if one takes a very narrow view of uniformitarianism and rejects Meyer's uniformitarianism discussion, that does not mean that the whole design inference just collapses into something 'extra-scientific.'Eric Anderson
April 6, 2013
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Hi Box, Re. #24: It's an impression I have from reading several of his books and numerous papers by him. I can't recall ever reading anything by him that affirms ID, and I can recall several statements that seemed to me pretty clearly to indicate that his stance was not only agnosticism with respect to the existence of God, but also with respect to origins. Unfortunately, I didn't take notes, so I can't give you a reference. If you or anyone else has any direct evidence on this question one way or the other I would welcome it.Bruce David
April 6, 2013
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Bruce David #11: 'Therefore, the only valid scientific conclusion from the facts as they stand is that the the cause of the origin of life and all of its subsequent development is unknown. This is David Berlinski’s position, I believe.'
Hello David, can you substantiate your notion that this is Berlinski's position?Box
April 6, 2013
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Joe, re. #21:
The inference of design is a necessary one if we have any hope of understanding it.
I agree. However, there are people in the world who are perfectly comfortable with not knowing and having no real hope of ever knowing, like David Berlinski and my brother. It's not an intellectual position I would adopt, but I believe that it is a perfectly valid one none the less.Bruce David
April 6, 2013
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/satire (There, fixed it. KF.)
Satire: a "nice" word for scorn and ridicule.Mung
April 6, 2013
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Bruce, The inference of design is a necessary one if we have any hope of understanding it. Is Stonehenge better understood as an artifact or as a natural formation? Does it make a difference how we investigate Stonehenge if it was by design or nature, operating freely? For me, to infer design means there is more to us than just matter, energy and any emergence from their interactions. Yet we won't look for anything else if we don't first infer design, which means we will never understand our existence. And we are destined to be buffoons who believe we are related to baboons. And what if these people who wish this upon us are actually the problem. Science should be about finding out the reality behind our existence. There can be only one. We can not be neither afraid nor limited in our search to find that reality.Joe
April 6, 2013
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Joe, KF, Chance, and Eric: What I am saying is that in the case of living systems, the conclusions, "I don't know", and "They were designed" are equally valid, and I point to David Berlinski as an example of someone who takes the former position. Furthermore, I am asserting that the conclusion of design on the basis of Uniformitarianism, as Stephen Meyer argues, is a flawed use of that principle, because the basis of Uniformitarianism is that causes known in the present to produce a given phenomenon can only reasonably be invoked to explain past events if there is also a scientific reason to believe that such causes could also have been in operation at that time. Since every single observed instance of the causality of an intelligent agent to produce FSCI in the present era is a human being, there is no scientific warrant for positing the possibility of such a cause in the pre-Cambrian. I am not saying that the conclusion of design is unwarranted. I obviously don't believe that or I wouldn't be an ID supporter myself. I am saying, however, that it is not warranted by Uniformitarianism, and thus it is not properly a conclusion that can be drawn within the operating principles of science itself. The only scientifically warranted conclusion is that we don't know. The conclusion of design is extra-scientific, if you will.Bruce David
April 6, 2013
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Bruce David: Thanks for your openness and sharing your concerns. Couple of things immediately jump out at me. The design inference is just that, an inference, not a deduction. I think you may be conflating "scientific" with "deductive." No major design proponent has argued that the design inference is a deduction, so taking the view that the argument fails because it is not deductive, is itself a fallacy. The design inference is an inference to the best explanation, which is the standard approach in historical science. Further, per the anti-design position you quoted we would never be able to infer the existence of a designer unless we already knew for a fact that a designer was around at the time. That is teetering close to a circularity. More importantly, under such a position undertakings like SETI would be inherently unscientific. Also, it would not be possible for archaeologists to ever conclude that civilizations existed earlier than they had previously thought. Yet such discoveries have happened many times and have pushed back or adjusted the dates. And it is precisely the discovery of designed artifacts that caused scientists to revise their understanding of whether there were designers around at the relevant time, not the other way around. There is a world of evidence and everyday experience that demonstrates we can objectively recognize designed artifacts independent of any prior knowledge of the designer. Please don't get taken in by the facile anti-design talking point that we can only infer design if we already know that there was a designer, which in essence is tantamount to saying that we can only conclude that there was a designer if we already know that there was a designer. Such is a completely pointless objection and also goes against the tremendous weight of our regular experience, as well as our current knowledge of cause and effect.Eric Anderson
April 6, 2013
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Lol Joe @16, thanks for the support. :DChance Ratcliff
April 6, 2013
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BD:
to be able to draw the inference legitimately that the first cell was designed, there must be some reason to believe that an entity or entities capable of such a design existed [were possible . . . as opposed to IM-possible] at that time.
In short, absent reason to see that potential designers were impossible, the known, tested, found reliable signs that certain objects etc were designed, is empirical evidence that makes it reasonable to accept that such designers existed then and there. Indeed, it is more and more apparent to me that one reason for objections to design inferences, is that some objectors are uncomfortable with or hostile to some candidate designers. But such does not justify them in begging questions and improperly and inconsistently dismissing relevant evidence and reasoning. And that is before we get to the fact of beavers as evidence that non-human designers are very possible. Not to mention how evident fine tuning of the observed cosmos raises the serious possibility of a designer beyond the material cosmos capable of building a cosmos. KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2013
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We don’t infer design because there are designers known to have been present, we know that they existed because of the artifacts left behind.
Read it. Know it. Live it.Joe
April 6, 2013
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BD:
But what would you say if somehow Stonehenge could be accurately dated to be 100M years old, before there were any humans alive on the planet? Would you still believe that Stonehenge was designed? Or would your conclusion more likely be that it was the result of some remarkable natural occurrence or that its existence is simply one of those unexplained mysteries?
Mother nature doesn't magically gain the ability to do something just because we are trapped inside a box (can't think outside of it). My conclusion would be that the structure was designed and it is evidence that some designing agency was around at that time.Joe
April 6, 2013
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Bruce @13, What if a stone inscription, perhaps a pictograph, was accurately dated to be 100M years old. Would that be any less an indicator of design? The design inference is based upon features of the object in question. Having a 100M year old designed object implicates the presence of a designer. Finding such indicia on another planet would inform us that intelligent life exists or existed on that planet. We would not make an a priori determination that no life existed on the planet, therefore the object could not be designed. It works the other way around. Artifacts are evidence of intelligence. We don't infer design because there are designers known to have been present, we know that they existed because of the artifacts left behind.Chance Ratcliff
April 6, 2013
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Joe, re. #12:
And the design is such evidence. If there were nothing else but Stonehenge we would rightly infer some designers were around to build it.
But what would you say if somehow Stonehenge could be accurately dated to be 100M years old, before there were any humans alive on the planet? Would you still believe that Stonehenge was designed? Or would your conclusion more likely be that it was the result of some remarkable natural occurrence or that its existence is simply one of those unexplained mysteries?Bruce David
April 6, 2013
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BD:
The flaw is this? to be able to draw the inference legitimately that the first cell was designed, there must be some reason to believe that an entity or entities capable of such a design existed at that time.
And the design is such evidence. If there were nothing else but Stonehenge we would rightly infer some designers were around to build it.
The only direct experience we have of intelligent agents is that they are all human beings, and clearly no human beings existed on earth during the pre-Cambrian. Therefore, the only valid scientific conclusion from the facts as they stand is that the the cause of the origin of life and all of its subsequent development is unknown.
That would be the thing to do- say it is unknown. However what we get is "We don't know but we know it wasn't designed (wink, wink)". It would be very acceptable if we left out the philosophical crap out of it (ie materialism, naturalism, evolutionism) and just presented the evidence along with valid options as to how that evidence came to be the way it is. Then discuss, formulate hypotheses and test them.Joe
April 6, 2013
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Let me say first, so everyone knows where I stand, that I am completely convinced that all biological organisms that now exist or have existed on this planet were designed and engineered. That said, I think that there is a flaw in Meyer's application of the principle of uniformitarianism, as well as Dembski's design inference, to living things. The flaw is this? to be able to draw the inference legitimately that the first cell was designed, there must be some reason to believe that an entity or entities capable of such a design existed at that time. The only direct experience we have of intelligent agents is that they are all human beings, and clearly no human beings existed on earth during the pre-Cambrian. Therefore, the only valid scientific conclusion from the facts as they stand is that the the cause of the origin of life and all of its subsequent development is unknown. This is David Berlinski's position, I believe. Now, if one has some extra-scientific reason to believe that there was an intelligence in existence at that time capable of the kind of engineering evidenced by living organisms---such as God, for example---then the conclusion that they were designed is warranted. So I submit that there are only two possible responses that an atheist with intellectual integrity can make to the scientific facts as currently known---either "I don't know how life originated and evolved", or "Well, there must be a God after all." (As Antony Flew famously concluded.) But this latter alternative is not strictly a scientific conclusion. It is rather a metaphysical conclusion based on scientific evidence.Bruce David
April 6, 2013
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F/N: I have added a footnote here, on conservation of info and related concepts. KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2013
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DIEB: Thank you for stimulating me to see that I do have power to release comments from mod in threads I own (the menu is hidden . . . another WP bug/feature). Forgive consequential delays. Now, on abbreviations, FSCO/I is as headlined. HT is the common bloggist "hat tip" where CR is a commenter whose comment is linked. IOSE is a linked draft independent origins science education course. Maybe, Niwrad will be able to release the comment in "his" thread? (I cannot see the comment in the thread, and will not comment on it until it comes up.) KF (Thread owner)kairosfocus
April 5, 2013
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KF, obviously you have already read my comment above from yesterday, and probably even this one in another thread. So why are both still in moderation?DiEb
April 4, 2013
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