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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
Let's compare an adult 70kg human at 98.6 F, the same person with a slight fever of 100.4 F, and the same person (at 98.4 F) in 70,000 one cc chunks, immediately following an unfortunate incident with an industrial wood-chipper. For extra credit, convert the difference between the same person at 98.6 F and at 100.4 F into bits of information. EA: Too funny! I hope you don't mind if I keep this one in my back pocket for later use.DNA_Jock
March 23, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: To make it a fair comparison let’s stipulate that both the rat and the compost pile are made up of the same materials in the same quantities. Depends what you mean by materials. If the molecular structure is intact, then they will have similar entropies. The problem with the example is that the molecular structure is bound up with the overall biological organization of the rat. You might compare the entropy of a live rat and a fresh dead rat instead.Zachriel
March 23, 2015
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StephenB: Why don’t you tell us in a reasonable, non-inflammatory way what you think the thermodynamic issue is as it relates to abiogenesis Any theory of abiogenesis must be consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Without a theory to consider, there's no way to evaluate the specifics. Metabolism-first hypotheses propose that life organizes itself as a natural response to the dissipation of energy, but these ideas are still incomplete. Intelligent Designer advocates, on the other hand, often claim the 2nd law of thermodynamics prohibits the spontaneous origin of organization. However, the 2nd law of thermodynamics does not prohibit either organization or order, and there are many naturally organizing phenomena. Tabasco identified the fallacy of the undistributed middle:
1. The 2LoT is a probabilistic argument. 2. ID arguments are also probabilistic arguments. 3. Therefore ID arguments involve the 2LoT.
A common avenue for the Intelligent Design advocate is to then claim that it is intelligence which allows for organization above and beyond the 2nd law of thermodynamics. However, no matter clever you are, you can't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. You're left with deus ex machina.Zachriel
March 23, 2015
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Hey,scordova. How is it going? you said, A warm living human has more entropy than a frozen dead rat. I say, Granted, But I'm not sure how this is relevant. Instead of comparing warm verses frozen why not try comparing a frozen rat verses frozen compost pile. Which one has the most entropy? To make it a fair comparison let's stipulate that both the rat and the compost pile are made up of the same materials in the same quantities. For extra credit compare a frozen rat with a warm but sterile compost pile. thanks in advance peacefifthmonarchyman
March 23, 2015
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H = - SUM pi log pikairosfocus
March 23, 2015
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Oh, Eric, Your statement:
The types of reactions that are and are not thermodynamically favorable under purely natural conditions (remember, no catalysts, no enzymes, no controlled chemical cascades) is a very important issue.
And my two questions:
Pop quiz: can a catalyst change whether a reaction is thermodynamically favorable? Can an enzyme? [Emphasis in original]
were not about whether reactions are “thermodynamically likely”, but rather about whether reactions are “thermodynamically favorable”, and the effect of catalysts and enzymes on this issue. It's not "nit-picking words" to ask for precision in communication. Would you like to have another try at answering the questions?
1) Can a catalyst change whether a reaction is thermodynamically favorable? 2) Can an enzyme?
DNA_Jock
March 23, 2015
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Mung: The second law of thermodynamics is a matter of probability, as are the arguments for intelligent design. There is an abstraction that goes beyond joule per kelvin, something which you never quite seemed either able or willing to grasp.
Wrong! What units do you suggest measuring thermodynamic entropy in, bits? I even provided a conversion factor. 1 Joule/Kelvin = 1 / (1.381 x 10^-23) / ln (2) Bits =1.045 x 10^23 Bits More complexity implies more bits. More bits imply more entropy. Ergo, more complexity implies more entropy, not less! A warm living human has more entropy than a frozen dead rat. Given that fact, it is a ironic then there seems to be an obsession about reducing entropy when it is clear sometimes it is better to increase entropy if one wants a more complex living organism versus a dead frozen lump of chemicals!
You were repeatedly referred to sources which demonstrated the relationship between statistical mechanics and information theory, and given your background it was within your ability to grasp them. but you chose not to.
Wrong, I actually derived the connection of information to statistical mechanics from first principles here and elsewhere, and I even provided links to the derivations above. You're just repeating and promoting a false narrative about me. Why don't try doing an actual entropy estimate and compute the J/K of a warm living human to the J/K of a dead frozen rat. You can then convert the J/K estimate to bits using the above conversion factor. Post a comment of your findings here whether the warm living human has more bits of entropy than the frozen dead rat. You won't do it possibly because: 1. you can't do the derivation 2. you don't want to admit you're wrong and I was right 3. you insist on perpetuating false narratives about me and my grasp of statistical mechanics 4. all of the above Do you think something dead should have more or less entropy than something alive? Provide some calculations to refute my claims and let's settle the issue here, or would you prefer to avoid the issue and focus on making ad hominem attacks against me rather than addressing the OP?scordova
March 23, 2015
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#288 Eric Anderson,
There are just a couple of problems with this idea: (i) no-one has ever witnessed such a thing; (ii) there is little reason to think it would actually work in the real world; and (iii) there are excellent reasons to think it would not work.
Granted (i), why (ii) and (iii)?Piotr
March 23, 2015
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It occurs to me that if I don't spell out the point I made in #297, a lot of UDers won't get it. This argument is invalid:
1. The 2LoT is a probabilistic argument. 2. ID arguments are also probabilistic arguments. 3. Therefore ID arguments involve the 2LoT.
Why? Because 2LoT arguments are only a small percentage of probabilistic arguments. Consider Behe's IC and "Edge of Evolution" arguments. They're obviously probabilistic arguments, but they don't involve the 2LoT -- and Behe is smart enough not to try to link them to the 2LoT. Why make a mistake that Behe is smart enough to avoid?tabasco
March 22, 2015
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Eric:
Thou doth protest too much, methinks.
It's "thou dost". Add archaic grammar to your list of things to learn. But put it further down the list than thermodynamics, please. EA: Thanks, I've corrected it.tabasco
March 22, 2015
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DNA_Jock: Thou dost protest too much, methinks. I can't tell whether you are up in arms about the phrase "thermodynamically favorable" or something else. In OOL, are we looking for reactions that would occur under thermodynamically favorable conditions as they might exist on the early Earth? Of course. That is the whole underpinning of the "metabolism first" proposal. And there is certainly a huge effort in abiogenesis research to find simple pre-biotic catalysts that could kick start the speculative abiogenic processes toward more complex molecules. So, yes, I could have said "no biological catalysts", although that should have been clear from the context. Or are you just nitpicking words? Would you prefer that we speak of reactions that are "thermodynamically likely" under early Earth conditions instead of "thermodynamically favorable" under early Earth conditions? Can a catalyst or an enzyme make a reaction that is thermodynamically unlikely for OOL more likely? Of course. That is the whole point of the extensive abiogenesis search for pre-biotic catalysts.Eric Anderson
March 22, 2015
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Mung,
The second law of thermodynamics is a matter of probability, as are the arguments for intelligent design.
It does not follow that intelligent design arguments are second law arguments. Many IDers make the same bogus argument. KF is a repeat offender.tabasco
March 22, 2015
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Eric @291 writes:
We have a pretty good idea of what the practical result is. [of the chemical interactions]
Well, abiogenesis researchers have a pretty good idea, but Eric evidently does not.
The types of reactions that are and are not thermodynamically favorable under purely natural conditions (remember, no catalysts, no enzymes, no controlled chemical cascades) is a very important issue.
Anyone who writes something this dumb needs to take a basic chemistry course. On the nature of catalysis. Pop quiz: can a catalyst change whether a reaction is thermodynamically favorable? Can an enzyme? Yikes.DNA_Jock
March 22, 2015
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Zachriel: This is getting quite old. I'll tell you what: Why don't you tell us in a reasonable, non-inflammatory way what you think the thermodynamic issue is as it relates to abiogenesis, and I'll post your response as a head post. Note: I am not asking you to answer how abiogenesis occurred or anything like that. I just want to see if you understand the issue under discussion. So please just state, in your own words, what you understand the issue to be.Eric Anderson
March 22, 2015
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REC @219:
Actually, snow flakes fall into about 121 specifications (see ref). Each is a bit different, and therefore also highly improbable. FSCI/O?
Interesting and useful question. I think the answer to your question lies in the misuse of "specification" (at least insofar as it relates to ID). A specification in ID, as you no doubt know, is not just a "category" (reword your sentence with "category" instead of "specification" and it works just as well, probably better). We can categorize all kinds of things in the universe: rocks, streams, mountains, types of elements in a periodic table, and on and on. The existence of a category does not mean we are dealing with a specification in the ID sense, which deals with meaning, purpose, message, function, etc.Eric Anderson
March 22, 2015
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Zachriel:
All the known processes in living organisms are consistent with the known ordering principles of chemistry.
lol. the ordering principles of chemistry? really? Earth to Zachriels.Mung
March 22, 2015
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REC @211:
The ordering principles of biological macromolecules is found latently in their chemical structures. (DNA base pairs, RNA and Proteins fold spontaneously, with favored entropy.” This point has been made repeatedly. What you are doing is arguing the comparison of fishing reels, cars and houses to molecules is stupid. It is. So please stop.
Yes, the primary ordering is determined by the informational content of the DNA base pairs. But the translation and transcription process doesn't just happen by chemistry. There are many mediating and assisting processes that not only maintain the correct order, but which can cut, trim, splice, concatenate, assist in folding, and so on -- something that we are barely scratching the surface of. While you are quite correct that molecules have specific charge qualities that enable bonding, those same qualities can also interfere with desired configurations if not carefully controlled. That is precisely one of the challenges of abiogenesis research: namely, finding a way to coax the desired structures out of the mix. It is most definitely not just downhill chemistry. After all, no-one would expect a well-mixed solution of amino acids to spontaneously form a functional protein, "with favored entropy." So at the very least, we have to say that the DNA base pairs specify a precise order in which the amino acids need to be attached in order to ensure that the correct protein product is produced. (But in reality, it is not even close to that simple. There is much more going on in the cell to get a correct protein product.)Eric Anderson
March 22, 2015
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DNA_Jock @168:
You don’t know what the practical result of those interactions might be, yet you are certain that they wouldn’t help abiogenesis.
We have a pretty good idea of what the practical result is. It is has been under intense and extensive study for decades. The reactions produce some variation of inert matter, sludge, tar, but never -- not once -- anything even close to a self-replicating molecule. And they sure don't help with the host of other issues surrounding abiogenesis either.Eric Anderson
March 22, 2015
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Zachriel @207:
All the known processes in living organisms are consistent with the known ordering principles of chemistry.
Whiffs again on the issue at hand . . .Eric Anderson
March 22, 2015
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Missy @166:
I was getting ahead of that kind of god of the gaps response, once I've seen creationists doing it. But I admit I may be a little biased.
Missy, first of all, thank you for acknowledging that you were jumping the gun and that you may be a little biased. That is quite refreshing. I think you will find that most of the ID proponents who comment here (though, no doubt, with an occasional exception or lapse of judgment) are interested in the science and focus on the evidence, rather than throwing up their hands and saying "we don't know, so God did it". Thank you for being willing to see beyond the caricatures that you may have run across on other sites. If you are willing to have your views challenged and learn alongside us, I, for one, welcome your continued participation.Eric Anderson
March 22, 2015
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Piotr @160:
I am not qualified to discuss the OOL scenarios in any detail, but once we have a viable replication process going (in a prebiotic environment it wouldn’t have had to be anything fancy), the emergence and fine-tuning of new “functional” features (visible to selection and promoted by it) is not only possible but pretty well inevitable, no matter how “improbable” they seem to be.
Yes, as I said, that is the theory. The idea is pretty simple. But the devil is, as they say, in the details. The effort to import Darwinian evolution into the pre-biotic, molecular realm is important to the materialist creation story because Darwinian variation+selection is thought to be ultra powerful and nearly limitless in capability. Surely if we can get some kind of pre-biotic self-replicator going, then eventually wonderful things will happen -- even life. At least that is the theory. There are just a couple of problems with this idea: (i) no-one has ever witnessed such a thing; (ii) there is little reason to think it would actually work in the real world; and (iii) there are excellent reasons to think it would not work.
Thermodynamic considerations are important in understanding why (as Boltzmann probably saw, judging from his lectures).
Agreed. The types of reactions that are and are not thermodynamically favorable under purely natural conditions (remember, no catalysts, no enzymes, no controlled chemical cascades) is a very important issue. An issue that many abiogenesis critics have been pointing out, and one that too many abiogenesis proponents seem fiercely opposed to even considering.Eric Anderson
March 22, 2015
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scordova:
I don’t participate here much anymore. My dissent and disagreement with other ID proponents and creationists isn’t exactly welcome.
Poor you, the unrepentant hypocrite. You systematically suppressed dissent in the threads you authored here at UD. Whine less. The second law of thermodynamics is a matter of probability, as are the arguments for intelligent design. There is an abstraction that goes beyond joule per kelvin, something which you never quite seemed either able or willing to grasp. You were repeatedly referred to sources which demonstrated the relationship between statistical mechanics and information theory, and given your background it was within your ability to grasp them. but you chose not to. Instead, you shot the messenger. Oh well.Mung
March 22, 2015
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to interested lurkers, This whole subject was address in OP quote: Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy. Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. end quote: I can't think of a better example of "misunderstanding the argument" than expecting thermodynamic compensation for informational or organizational entropy. I can't think of a better example of ignoring the arguments of others than to act like the OP did not exist. and I can't think of a better example of a knee jerk response than to label an argument you clearly don't understand with a pejorative name and dismissing it out of hand. I would hope that critics would at least try to understand what is being said. That is demonstrability not the case peacefifthmonarchyman
March 22, 2015
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5mm, The "Compensation argument" is central to any understanding of 2LoT. Thank you for confirming that you are talking about the CLoT. Which, fyi, is unrelated to 2LoT. And wrong.DNA_Jock
March 22, 2015
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DNA_JOCK says. How much ice would I need to melt to compensate for the informational content of the human genome? I say, As I said in 194 and again in 274 Again with the compensation argument. geez Demonstrating once again that the critics are so regimented and knee jerk in their thinking that they are unable to even comprehend what the actual discussion is about? I’m not sure what it will take to get past this. But until we do real discussion will continue to elude us you can have the last word peacefifthmonarchyman
March 22, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman, Since you have found in Wikipedia the connection between "informational entropy" and thermal entropy, perhaps YOU would like to calculate the trade-off. Here's a simple way to illustrate it : How much ice would I need to melt to compensate for the informational content of the human genome?DNA_Jock
March 22, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: However thermodynamic entropy and information entropy are both “apples”. No more than apples are arithmetic just because you can count apples. Thermodynamic entropy is a property of the physical world. You measure thermodynamic entropy with a calorimeter. Information entropy is an abstraction. fifthmonarchyman: At a multidisciplinary level, however, connections can be made between thermodynamic and informational entropy, although it took many years in the development of the theories of statistical mechanics and information theory to make the relationship fully apparent. Yes, statistical thermodynamics is an *application* of the mathematics of information entropy, just like counting apples is an application of arithmetic. But apples are not numbers. If you were correct, then the thermodynamic entropy of twenty copper pennies (33.2 J mol-1 K-1) would depend on whether they were heads up or tails up. It doesn't.Zachriel
March 22, 2015
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zac says, You are mixing apples and oranges. I say, No that is what your side is doing when you bring up compensation arguments. However thermodynamic entropy and information entropy are both "apples". from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_%28information_theory%29#Relationship_to_thermodynamic_entropy quote: At an everyday practical level the links between information entropy and thermodynamic entropy are not evident....... At a multidisciplinary level, however, connections can be made between thermodynamic and informational entropy, although it took many years in the development of the theories of statistical mechanics and information theory to make the relationship fully apparent. end quote: peacefifthmonarchyman
March 22, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: 1)It would take infinite information to name all individual digits of Pi. That means it’s entropy is very (infinitely) low. Thermodynamic entropy for pi is undefined. It's informational entropy is low, not because it takes an infinite amount of time to transmit, but because it can be transmitted with a few bits of information. fifthmonarchyman: 2) At the same time Pi is a subset of all possible numbers. A set which has very high (infinite) entropy. Thermodynamic entropy for the set of all possible numbers is undefined. Indeed, the set of all possible numbers is undefined. Did you mean the set of real numbers? fifthmonarchyman: Since we have this readily available external “sink” please give a satisfactory compensation argument for the existence of Pi. Thermodynamic entropy for pi is undefined. However, thermodynamic entropy is defined for a penny. The standard molar entropy is 33.2 J mol-1 K-1, a mole being about 20 copper pennies. fifthmonarchyman: Now suppose I was looking at trended moisture data from an industrial process and the number sequence matched the digits of Pi. From standpoint of information theory it is reasonable to conclude that the 2nd law renders such an event highly unlikely. Thermodynamic entropy for pi is undefined. You are mixing apples and oranges. Again, calculate the standard entropy of a penny to understand why it has nothing to do with whether the coin is heads up or tails up.Zachriel
March 22, 2015
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zac says, One way to move forward would be to calculate actual values. I say, OK Ive got a second to kill. 1)It would take infinite information to name all individual digits of Pi. That means it's entropy is very (infinitely) low. 2) At the same time Pi is a subset of all possible numbers. A set which has very high (infinite) entropy. Since we have this readily available external “sink” please give a satisfactory compensation argument for the existence of Pi. something on the order of infinite positive entropy yields zero entropy. If you can't or if such an argument seems nonsensical then please acknowledge that compensation arguments are completely beside the point when we are talking about information. So we can move on. Now suppose I was looking at trended moisture data from an industrial process and the number sequence matched the digits of Pi. From standpoint of information theory it is reasonable to conclude that the 2nd law renders such an event highly unlikely. Would you agree? peacefifthmonarchyman
March 22, 2015
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