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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
fifthmonarchyman: I’m not sure what it will take to get past this. But until we do real discussion will continue to elude us One way to move forward would be to calculate actual values. How many arrangements are there of 20 pennies? 2^20 or about 10^6. How many microstates are there in 20 copper pennies? It's not 10^24, but about 10^(10^24), or 10^1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Indeed, you can consider just the microstates of a tiny sliver of the coin, such as the hair in Lincoln's nostril, and have a number so large as to defy comprehension. That's at standard temperature and pressure. If the temperature is other than 298°K, then the value will be different. Just holding the penny in your hand will increase the number of available microstates by a number dwarfing anything to do with the number of heads and tails.Zachriel
March 22, 2015
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Again with the compensation argument. geez
Your response to standard physics is "geez"? Talk of kneejerk reactions...Piotr
March 22, 2015
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The low-entropy you are referring to is not an organized system.
I refer generally to systems capable of lowering their entropy. According to which law of physics are such systems (including life) impossible without Intelligent Desing? CLOT (the Creationist Law of Thermodynamics)? What exactly does it say, in quantifiable terms?Piotr
March 22, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: I’m not sure what it will take to get past this. But until we do real discussion will continue to elude us By explaining why the export of entropy is not an important consideration on a thread about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, or acknowledging its importance while explaining why it doesn't apply, or something other than handwaving. Perhaps you could calculate the entropy of a couple of examples as part of your explanation.Zachriel
March 22, 2015
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Piotr says, An open system can easily reach an extremely “improbable” (low-entropy) state if it has access to a source of free energy (“free” in the thermodynamic sense), and to an external “sink” where enough entropy can be deposited. I said way back in 194...... Again with the compensation argument. geez Demonstrating once again that the critics are so regimented and knee jerk in their thinking that they are unable to even comprehend what the actual discussion is about? I’m not sure what it will take to get past this. But until we do real discussion will continue to elude us you can have the last word peacefifthmonarchyman
March 22, 2015
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Box: It is widely recognized that in an organized system entropy is very low. A crystal generally has even lower entropy. Also, entropy is an extensive property.Zachriel
March 22, 2015
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Piotr: 2LOT says zilch about “organisation” and “specification”.
Yes we know ... However this is irrelevant to the argument. It is widely recognized that in an organized system entropy is very low.
Piotr: An open system can easily reach an extremely “improbable” (low-entropy) state if (...)
Yes we know ... However this is irrelevant to the argument. The low-entropy you are referring to is not an organized system. You can keep your snow crystals we don't want them.Box
March 22, 2015
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Box and fifthmonarchyman, 2LOT says zilch about "organisation" and "specification". It is not about macroscopic order either. Do you think you reduce the entropy of your hair when you comb it? Anyway: An open system can easily reach an extremely "improbable" (low-entropy) state if it has access to a source of free energy ("free" in the thermodynamic sense), and to an external "sink" where enough entropy can be deposited.Piotr
March 22, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Do you see the equivalence???? They are not equal. Statistical thermodynamics is an *application* of information theory to microstates.Zachriel
March 22, 2015
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zac says In information theory, a random number has high entropy, while a known constant has low entropy. In thermodynamics, a system with low entropy has few available microstates. I say, Do you see the equivalence???? peacefifthmonarchyman
March 22, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: A system does not become less specified as it’s entropy increases. Typically it does, at least in terms of thermodynamics. If its entropy increases, the microstates have more degrees of freedom, that is, are less specified. Generally a system is considered as being in equilibrium, meaning it continues to import energy, perform work, and export entropy. An engine. fifthmonarchyman: Do you actually mean to say that “all heads in 500 flips of a fair coin” has the same entropy as a random normal distribution in the results? The same *thermodynamic* entropy. Go ahead: count the microstates. fifthmonarchyman: Do you believe that a system’s microstate is unrelated to it’s macro order? If the objects are at thermal equilibrium, such as coins would normally be, their arrangement doesn't matter. It would matter if they are not at thermal equilibrium, then the temperature gradient determines heat flow. fifthmonarchyman: 1)In ID When we say a system is highly specified we mean that all of the relevant information can be given in a short description. (Pi for 3.14….. for example) Sure. In thermodynamics, it is determined by the number of available microstates. fifthmonarchyman: 2) when we say a system has low entropy we mean that a lot of information is required to describe the exact state of the system.(ie The information required to name the individual digits of Pi is infinite) In information theory, a random number has high entropy, while a known constant has low entropy. In thermodynamics, a system with low entropy has few available microstates.Zachriel
March 22, 2015
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To recap 1)In ID When we say a system is highly specified we mean that all of the relevant information can be given in a short description. (Pi for 3.14..... for example) 2) when we say a system has low entropy we mean that a lot of information is required to describe the exact state of the system.(ie The information required to name the individual digits of Pi is infinite) The paradoxical tension between those two statements is the heart of the ID argument. peacefifthmonarchyman
March 22, 2015
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zac says, if we use that definition, it refers to microstates, not macroscopic order. I say, Do you believe that a system's microstate is unrelated to it's macro order? peacefifthmonarchyman
March 22, 2015
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Piotr says The combined system — an organism plus the world around it — increases its entropy even if the organism becomes more “ordered” (“specified”, “organised”, etc.). I say, Apparently you also are confusing what it means for a system to be "specified". A system in thermodynamic equilibrium can be easily specified. A system does not become less specified as it's entropy increases. I have come to realize that the source of of much of the communication difficulty surrounding these discussions has to deal with that one term "specification". zac says. The entropy of coins are the same regardless of whether they are all heads up or not. I say, Do you actually mean to say that “all heads in 500 flips of a fair coin” has the same entropy as a random normal distribution in the results? If so I think this is another point of misunderstanding between us. Surely you know that entropy is about more than heat. peacefifthmonarchyman
March 22, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Thermodynamics doesn’t determine the form of a snowflake either. That's right! The creation of snowflakes and the flipping of coins are consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but mere consistency is not an explanation for the particular patterns. fifthmonarchyman: The second law is not about what thermodynamics does it’s about the entropic constraints that are placed on systems. Right again! The 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn't determine the shape of a snowflake or the pattern of heads and tails. It just says that work is required to reorder the molecules of water or the faces of the coins. fifthmonarchyman: What we have in your description is a unexpected system with low entropy and low probability. The entropy of coins are the same regardless of whether they are all heads up or not. The entropy of a snowflake, however, is much lower than the same water molecules in liquid form. Timaeus: Entropy is a measure of the degree of disorder of a system. The greater the disorder, the greater the amount of entropy. The use of order/disorder can be confusing, but if we use that definition, it refers to microstates, not macroscopic order. A deck of playing cards has the thermodynamic entropy whether sorted or shuffled. If you think differently, think of the difference in energy available for work. Box: However the claim put forward by Sewell and others is that the 2LOT implies a tendency away from ORGANIZATION – which is distinct from plain old bottom-up order. The organization in life is bottom-up, the global structure evolving from preferential attachment. Box: Under the 2LOT natural forces turn spaceships, TV sets, and computers into a pile of rubble but not vice-versa. The laws of thermodynamics say that work can turn rubble into ordered structures.Zachriel
March 22, 2015
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Piotr: Still, it doesn’t mean that 2LOT prevents the spontaneous emergence of order.
Yes we know ... The 2LOT does not in any way prevent the kind of order that can be explained bottom-up - e.g. snow: the ordering principle of crystals is latently in the structure of the chemical elements. However the claim put forward by Sewell and others is that the 2LOT implies a tendency away from ORGANIZATION - which is distinct from plain old bottom-up order. Under the 2LOT natural forces turn spaceships, TV sets, and computers into a pile of rubble but not vice-versa.Box
March 22, 2015
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“Entropy is a measure of the degree of disorder of a system. The greater the disorder, the greater the amount of entropy.”
This must be their Physics for Blondes course. Even the Wikipedia article on entropy begins:
In thermodynamics, entropy (usual symbol S) is a measure of the number of specific ways in which a thermodynamic system may be arranged, commonly misunderstood as a measure of disorder.
OK, entropy may be understood (somewhat naively) as a measure of disorder in many typical situations. Let's accept that for the sake of the argument. Still, it doesn't mean that 2LOT prevents the spontaneous emergence of order. Living things produce a lot of entropy and export it to their surroundings (as waste heat and low-free-energy molecules) -- always enough to compensate for its local lowering, plus a lot more for good measure. The combined system -- an organism plus the world around it -- increases its entropy even if the organism becomes more "ordered" ("specified", "organised", etc.). I don't know how many times it has been stated and paraphrased here. Anyone who still doesn't get it is beyond help.Piotr
March 22, 2015
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keith s (66): I am not one of those who thinks that the second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible. However, I am surprised at the dogmatism with which people offer definitions. For example, your source says: "Entropy is not a measure of disorder." But here is a definition from an Ohio State physics textbook: "Entropy is a measure of the degree of disorder of a system. The greater the disorder, the greater the amount of entropy." And I could find many other scientific books and articles that employ a similar definition (which incidentally was the one I was taught in chemistry). We had this discussion two or three years ago with Elizabeth Liddle. Amidst the back and forth regarding Sewell, Elizabeth offered what to her were decisive definitions of entropy and of the second law. At the time I could pull up standard reference works which had definitions different from hers, but she didn't seem interested in hearing them. *Her* definitions were the only ones that "scientists" used. It seems to me that when qualified scientific authors give different definitions of terms, the proper way to proceed is not to say: "That's not entropy; this is" or "That's not the second law, this is"; but to carefully study why the different authors are defining and formulating terms in different ways, and to present a nuanced discussion such as: "Well, if you define entropy in that way, as many scientists do, then you might logically conclude X; however, when you realize the context in which those scientists intend that definition, a context quite different from our current discussion, you will realize that X does not follow. For our current discussion, the best definition of entropy would be the one employed by many other scientists, i.e., ... and from that definition one could not conclude X." This seems to me to be a better way of discussion than: "your definition is wrong and mine is right."Timaeus
March 22, 2015
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zac says, Thermodynamics doesn’t determine the pattern of heads or tails on a fair coin. I say, Thermodynamics doesn’t determine the form of a snowflake either. The second law is not about what thermodynamics does it's about the entropic constraints that are placed on systems. In short the second law says that entropy increases. What we have in your description is a unexpected system with low entropy and low probability. How did it happen? Please provide a satisfactory "compensation argument" like you did for snowflakes If you can't please admit that compensation arguments are beside the point when it comes to things like OOL and evolution. Then finally you would be ready to have a real discussion about ID and the second law. The problem is there is no one left who is interested in having that discussion with you. You ran them all off with your snowflake red herring. peacefifthmonarchyman
March 21, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: So give us a satisfying “compensation argument” for how this event happened like you did with snowflakes with out appealing to design. Thermodynamics doesn't determine the pattern of heads or tails on a fair coin. However, it does take work to flip the coins.Zachriel
March 21, 2015
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Zac said, You can pad out the description if you like, “all heads in 500 flips of a fair coin”. ETA: Or 90% heads in 500 flips of a fair coin. I say, Now we have a highly specified event with low entropy. That is what CJYman was talking about about 100 comments ago. So give us a satisfying "compensation argument" for how this event happened like you did with snowflakes with out appealing to design.fifthmonarchyman
March 21, 2015
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Materialism cannot account for water nor snowflakes...Joe
March 21, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Sure but that is not the issue. Of course it's the issue. A snowflake has a much lower thermodynamic entropy compared to the water from which it was formed. fifthmonarchyman: A hydrogen atom is much more highly specified and much lower entropy than undifferentiated matter. The entropy of a hydrogen atom depends on its thermal characteristics, and can vary widely. Generally, hydrogen has *higher* entropy as a free atom than when in molecular form. fifthmonarchyman: A snowstorm is well within the norm of the standard entropic variation we see in the atomphspre of earth. Yes. Now you got it! Entropy can decrease locally as long as entropy is exported. fifthmonarchyman: “All heads” is simply not a highly specified event. You can pad out the description if you like, "all heads in 500 flips of a fair coin". ETA: Or 90% heads in 500 flips of a fair coin. fifthmonarchyman: It is like saying “snowstorm” or “wood pile” or “chunk of quartz”. Each and every snowflake has a much lower entropy, and a much higher degree of specification, than the liquid water from which is it formed. fifthmonarchyman: There is nothing in the specification that marks the event as improbable in the slightest. It's only improbable when using a fallacious notion of thermodynamics.Zachriel
March 21, 2015
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Zac said, A snowstorm is much more highly specified and much lower entropy than undifferentiated matter. I say, Sure but that is not the issue. A hydrogen atom is much more highly specified and much lower entropy than undifferentiated matter. In fact matter with any differentiation at all is much more highly specified and much lower entropy than undifferentiated matter. geez A snowstorm is well within the norm of the standard entropic variation we see in the atomphspre of earth. We know that because snowstorms happen all the time. Hence it is not beyond the equilibrium that CJYman was talking about when he brought the topic up way back in comment 173. IOW this entire exercise was simply a waste of time. Now CJY man has moved on and absolutely no productive conversation has taken place. Perhaps that was your goal all along. Throw out a total red herring and hope that your opponents will ware themselves out demonstrating what should have been obvious from the get go. you say, Compensation is not an explanation for all heads. I say, Sure it is if we are only dealing with 5 coin tosses. That is the point. "All heads" is simply not a highly specified event. It is like saying "snowstorm" or "wood pile" or "chunk of quartz". There is nothing in the specification that marks the event as improbable in the slightest. Of course you know this but apparently you want to keep the red hearing out there long enough so that you won't have to have an actual discussion of evolution or the OOL and the second law. Oh well it is your loss. The world will continue to move on with out you. peacefifthmonarchyman
March 20, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: 1) A snowstorm is not highly specified or particularity low in entropy. 2) The July 4th 1945 Havana Cuba blizzard is highly specified and low entropy. A snowstorm is much more highly specified and much lower entropy than undifferentiated matter. fifthmonarchyman: If I asked how snowstorm “1? happened your compensation argument would be sufficient. Compensation is not an explanation of snowstorms. See #221. fifthmonarchyman: If I found a pile of coins all heads up your compensation argument would be a sufficient explanation. Compensation is not an explanation for all heads.Zachriel
March 20, 2015
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Zac says, The difference is the description, not the event. I say, Correct, What we mean when we say an event is highly specified is that a short description will compress it with out losing any relevant information. Your descriptions are not detailed specifications but merely a restatement of the general pattern in question. in other words 1) A snowstorm is not highly specified or particularity low in entropy. 2) The July 4th 1945 Havana Cuba blizzard is highly specified and low entropy. I hope you see that there is a huge difference even though it's possible that both descriptions are of the same event. If I asked how snowstorm "1" happened your compensation argument would be sufficient. On the other hand snowstorm "2" apparently violates the second law. Get it?? by the same token If I found a pile of coins all heads up your compensation argument would be a sufficient explanation. on the other hand If I flipped 200 coins and the middle 100 all landed heads up while the first and last 50 assumed a normal distribution I would think it thermodynamically odd. Hope that helps peacefifthmonarchyman
March 20, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: We are talking about objects that are highly specified. ffm: "If an object is highly specified it means I will know it quickly when it see it." fifthmonarchyman: It’s not the rigidity of the pattern that makes “all heads” a specified pattern it’s the shortness of the description. Description: "Snowflake" Description: "In a million throws, 90% heads". fifthmonarchyman: “coin flipped 100 times all heads” is a highly specified event. “coin flip one time heads coin flip one time heads coin flip one time heads coin flip one time heads etc etc etc…..” is not a highly specified event. They describe the same event. The difference is the description, not the event.Zachriel
March 20, 2015
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zac says, Out of all possible arrangements of water molecules, only a tiny proportion meet the specification of a snowflake. I say, I agree but that is not at issue. We are talking about objects that are highly specified. As REC has pointed out snowflakes can come in least 120 different forms anyone of which can be called a snowflake. The form of individual snowflakes can be practically infinite. Yet on my window all of them are basically interchangeably called snow. you say, A rigid pattern can be a specification, like all heads when flipping coins. I say, It's not the rigidity of the pattern that makes "all heads" a specified pattern it's the shortness of the description. "coin flipped 100 times all heads" is a highly specified event. "coin flip one time heads coin flip one time heads coin flip one time heads coin flip one time heads etc etc etc....." is not a highly specified event. Hope you can see the difference peacefifthmonarchyman
March 20, 2015
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11:38 AM
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fifthmonarchyman: You are confused about the meaning of term specified it does not mean contrived or beautiful or conforming to a rigid pattern it means Out of all possible arrangements of water molecules, only a tiny proportion meet the specification of a snowflake. A rigid pattern can be a specification, like all heads when flipping coins. fifthmonarchyman: If an object is highly specified it means I will know it quickly when it see it. Snowflake http://www.its.caltech.edu/~ph76a/wallpaper/a1152by864.jpg It's a lot of work arranging all those molecules into hexagons.Zachriel
March 20, 2015
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11:10 AM
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Zac says, Snowflakes are highly specified. Not only are the molecules arranged in a very specific pattern, but if it were a large object, it would look to be a beautiful and highly contrived tapestry. I say, You are confused about the meaning of term specified it does not mean contrived or beautiful or conforming to a rigid pattern it means ...... from here http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/specify quote: specify : to name or mention (someone or something) exactly and clearly : to be specific about (something).... end quote: Something is specified when it has special meaning to the observer. Like a reverse tornado a refilled cup or an English phrase in a snowflake cluster. Specification is the equivalent of non lossy data compression. If an object is highly specified it means I will know it quickly when it see it. Pi is the specification of the data string 3.14... hope that helps Random snowflakes or quartz chunks are not generally specified before the fact in in any meaningful sense. peacefifthmonarchyman
March 20, 2015
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