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Thinking Upside Down – The Abiogenesis Paradigm

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Not too many months ago I ran across Richard Dawkins’ statement that life got its start when, somehow, on the early Earth a self-replicating molecule formed.  I nearly fell out of my chair laughing.  I had read the quote before, and he has repeated the idea in various writings and interviews, but after having studied the issues with abiogenesis in a bit more detail, in particular the concept of a self-replicating molecule to kick off the origin of life, the idea struck me as particularly preposterous.

In this post, I want to follow up on the other recent thread regarding abiogenesis.  This time, however, I want to focus on the matter of self-replication.

The Abiogenesis Paradigm

As mentioned, the idea of a self-replicating molecule is central to most abiogenesis storylines.  Dawkins is not unique in this view, but I offer one of his quotes so that the reader can understand the general thrust.  In a 2012 COSMOS interview, Dawkins said:

Heather Catchpole: Have you put any thought into the beginning of life and into what kicked that off?

Dawkins: Not personally.  I mean, it’s increasingly clear that the big step that had to be taken – and it was probably a step that involved a large element of luck – was the origin of the first accurately self-replicating molecule.  Colloquially, you could say the first gene.  Which probably was not DNA, it might have been RNA.

That’s the step that must have been taken in the origin of life, and that’s what people are working on all around the world.  It’s hard to work on it because it happened a very long time ago under very different conditions, and it is a problem in chemistry rather than biology, it is pre-biology.

But the event in chemistry that must have taken place was the spontaneous arising of a self-replicating molecule.  That’s how I stated it in The Selfish Gene and that hasn’t changed, but people are now actively working on various theories of how that might have happened.  I’m not working on that.

Dawkins is of course not alone.  The search for a self-replicating molecule is the Holy Grail of origin of life research.  Indeed, you can take it to the bank that if a simple self-replicating molecule is ever discovered materialists will all but proclaim that the problem of life’s origin has been essentially solved.

The reason the elusive self-replicating molecule is so critical is that all honest researchers, even those committed to a materialist paradigm who dare not consider the possibility of design, acknowledge that there can be no evolution without a self-replicating entity.*  Once a self-replicating entity appears on the scene, however, the magic of natural selection can take over and then . . . watch out! . . . anything is possible.

Not that there is any good evidence, mind you, that natural selection can produce the kinds of systems we see in living organisms, much less the coding, protocols, and information-rich aspects.  But the vision of natural selection having near-mystical powers of creation has taken such hold on the evolutionary imagination that many individuals mistakenly believe with the magic wand of natural selection, “all things are possible.”  Stated another way, it is not that there is good evidence a self-replicating molecule can give rise to complex life; it is just that once natural selection kicks in, the idea becomes more believable to many people.

But back to those first steps of life’s origin . . .

Most criticisms of abiogenesis have focused on specific evidentiary details: the reducing atmosphere, energy sources, the difficulty of forming polymers in the primordial soup, the existence of the necessary nucleotides or amino acids at the right place and time, homochiralty, interfering cross reactions, the rise of coding and information-rich molecules, and so on.  Together these constitute a devastating indictment of the abiogenesis paradigm and give us ample reason to doubt the materialistic creation story.

However, much less time has been spent – and I want to focus on this today – on the issue of self-replication.  Indeed, even many critics of abiogenesis have skirted the issue or seem to have implicitly bought into the idea that a self-replicating molecule may indeed arise early on in the process.

In short, under the abiogenesis paradigm, the process is as follows:

chemical reactions -> self-replicating molecule -> natural selection kicks in -> eons pass -> life as we know it

This approach puts self-replication at the beginning of the creative story, the opening curtain if you will, in the long and complicated drama that is the history of life on Earth.  Under this paradigm, self-replication is viewed as the very first stage, the kicking-off point, the starting rung of the ladder of life.  Rather than having a living organism and then endowing that organism with an additional ability of self-replication, the materialistic paradigm makes self-replication the first ability.  Self-replication becomes the initial characteristic of an organism, the characteristic from which all others flow.

Let me say that again: Under the materialistic abiogenesis story, self-replication is the first characteristic of an organism to arise, the characteristic from which all additional characteristics then arise.  Characteristics like homeostasis, the genetic code, molecular machines, control mechanisms, the ability to locate, process and utilize materials from the environment, and so on.

The First Step of Life

This view of self-replication as the starting point, the initiator, the first step toward all other biological characteristics is not only questionable, it is completely backwards.  The abiogenesis story is upside-down.  Unfortunately, a failure to think through what is actually required for self-replication, the engineering and programming realities, gives rise to muddled thinking.  But for the magic wand of natural selection to kick in, self-replication must have been the first key step, the thinking goes.  This is why Dawkins would say: “it’s increasingly clear that the big step that had to be taken . . . was the origin of the first accurately self-replicating molecule.”

This insistence on a materialistic origin of life, coupled with the hypnotic trance of the limitless power of natural selection, thus leads the materialist to draw a conclusion that is not only unsupported, but that is diametrically opposed to the physical, chemical and engineering realities we see in the world around us.

The Realities of Self-Replication

A number of researchers have considered what might be involved in getting a self-replicating organism.  I have developed a tentative list of my own, but rather than lengthening this already too-lengthy essay, I will instead refer readers to the thought-provoking materials provided by InVivoVeritas.

In order to help us understand what is involved in self-replication, let us step back for a moment from the dizzying complexity of the living cell and consider what would be involved in building the simplest self-replicating machine possible with our existing technological understanding.

Self-replication has been the topic of much discussion in science fiction literature and movies, ranging from the large and powerful Terminator-style robots to small but deadly nanites.  However, in actual practice, creating a self-replicating machine is not so simple.

Some might be tempted to point to a software program that can copy itself, but such programs are not self-replicating in any substantive sense.  The software program only exists and runs on a carefully-designed and functional piece of hardware that is certainly not replicated in the process.  Furthermore, there is generally an operating system, as well as several additional pieces of software in the form of drivers, compilers, interfaces, middleware programs, and so on.  The most that can be said for such “self-replicating” programs is that a carefully-designed combination of hardware and software can produce a copy of a portion of the software.

No, true self-replication is a more onerous task.  Once we consider the task of actually instantiating a self-replicating machine in physical, three-dimensional space, the challenges become a bit more obvious.

Let’s take a real-world example of attempts to create a self-replicating machine.  To help us get a concrete idea of what is involved let’s look at the relatively-simple consumer-level 3D printers.

3D Printing

A considerable amount of effort has been dedicated toward the goal of self-replication and some modest gains have been made.  One of the most exciting technologies to emerge in recent years is 3D printing.  The ability of a machine to create various parts in three-dimensional space has set us on the path to the first realistic opportunity in human history to create a self-replicating machine.

I became interested in 3D printing years ago and have followed the development of the industry off and on ever since.  Recently the technology has become cheap enough that 3D printers have moved, if not into the world of the everyday consumer, then certainly into the world of the hobbyist and the technology enthusiast.  Popular consumer-level makers include MakerBot, FlashForge, 3DSystems, and others.

Today 3D printers range from personal machines costing a few hundred dollars that do rough prints in a single material to high-end professional printers costing many thousands of dollars boasting tolerances of less than one-tenth of a millimeter and printing in multiple materials.  Numerous 3D technologies also exist, from material extrusion (the most common technology for consumer and prosumer printers), light photopolymerization, powder bed fusion, ultrasonic additive, laser-induced, electron beam melting, and more.

Despite my interest in this area, I have not yet taken the plunge to buy my own printer.  I am guessing that within the next 12-18 months I will probably be willing to lay down some silver to acquire my own printer.  However, in the meantime our local library received a grant last year to educate patrons on the technology of 3D printers, so I took advantage of the opportunity to design and print a simple stand for one of my 5x5x5 cubes.

Printed - 2013-10-15 15.13.54_001

 

Printed-2013-10-15 15.13.03_001

 

This is an exciting and explosive technology that promises to fundamentally alter the landscape of design and prototyping activities, and, to a lesser though still meaningful extent, actual manufacturing processes.

A Self-Replicating 3D Printer?

One of the more interesting projects in the 3D printing world is the RepRap Project, an open-source project that seeks to create a self-replicating 3D printer.  A number of people have been involved in this project and have done tremendous work in moving it forward, with significant strides made.  As of this writing, many of the parts for a RepRap printer can be printed on the printer itself to reasonable tolerances, enabling a hobbyist to use those parts in the construction of a new printer.

RepRap 1.0 - Darwin
RepRap 1.0 – Darwin

As is often the case with groundbreaking new technologies, however, the excitement of future high-flying potential tends to intrude on assessments of the present on-the-ground realities.  For example, the RepRap website touts the machine as “humanity’s first general-purpose self-replicating manufacturing machine.”

At first blush, the uninitiated may look at projects like RepRap and think, “Wow!  We are almost there in terms of creating a self-replicating machine.”  But a closer look is warranted.

Another very interesting printer, the Kickstarter-backed BI V2.0, received breathless attention in late 2013, with myriad headlines touting “The World’s First Self-Replicating 3D Printer!”  This isn’t just sloppy newswire enthusiasm; even the official project website touts BI V2.0 as “A self-replicating, high precision 3D Printer.”

However, notwithstanding my enthusiasm for 3D printing technology and the long-term potential, such statements are overly-optimistic to the point of deception.  Neither RepRap nor BI V2.0 are self-replicating.

Not in theory or in practice.

Not even close.

Not even in the ballpark.

Don’t get me wrong.  I love this technology.  I’ve followed RepRap closely and consider it a fantastic idea and an excellent open-source project.  I also seriously considered contributing funds to the BI V2.0 Kickstarter project last year.

But despite the efforts that have been made to date, a human-designed self-replicating machine is a long way off.  We’re just scratching the surface.

So Close and Yet So Far

Although these printers do an impressive job of printing some of the parts needed for their construction, even a cursory look at the printer reveals that it is not even close to being able to print all its parts.

The printer itself must initially be set up and programmed with the right parameters, it must be fed the material for extrusion.  Even after parts are printed, they must be carefully removed from the bed by the user and, in many cases, cleaned up and sanded in order to finalize the usable parts.

In addition, notwithstanding the considerable effort expended to make as many parts as possible printable on the self-same machine, many other parts are simply not able to be printed by the printer.  The metal support rods that provide critical rigidity to the frame must be purchased separately.  More daunting still, the printer requires a circuit board, cabling, control switches and the like in order to function.  The printer at this stage is not even close to being able to produce all those parts.

BI V2.0
BI V2.0 (Click for closer look)

Yet there is another aspect that goes beyond the parts themselves.  Even if the printer had the capability of printing in multiple materials at the sub-micron level – even if the printer could print virtually every single part used in the construction of the printer, something which at this stage is but a distant dream – it would still not have the ability to assemble itself at all.

As we delve into the issue more deeply and more carefully, we realize that in order for a machine to be truly self-replicating, it must not only be able to produce all the necessary parts, but it must have a means to assemble those parts – in actual, physical, three-dimensional space.  In order to do that, the printer would not only have to be a printer of parts, but would need to have carefully-controlled and sophisticated robotic assembly systems.  For example, it would need an assembly arm to pick up the printed pieces, analyze them for completeness and quality, rotate them into the right position, and place them in the correct location.  In reality, this would likely require more than one assembly arm/mechanism.

And as soon as we introduce this new assembly arm/mechanism into the printer, then we have a whole additional set of machine parts that themselves have to be incorporated into the printer design, specified, coded, printed and assembled.  Indeed, the entire printer would need to be radically re-engineered in order for it to successfully assemble itself.

Furthermore, it is unclear how this printer could even accomplish this task without some significant re-engineering.  Remember, the printer is occupying a physical three-dimensional space.  The best it can do is assemble a copy right next to itself, with the far side of the copy some 12-24 inches away.  Thus any assembly mechanism would have to be able to reach outside of the box – outside of itself – in order to reproduce itself.

Assembling outside of itself might work on a clean tabletop with no other interference, but is of course unworkable in the fluid and watery biological environment.  So the cell uses an ingenious approach whereby the new outside housing/membrane is the last thing to be completed.  The cell essentially constructs a copy of itself within itself, using its own cell membrane to form the protective environment for construction, and then divides by drawing the cell membrane inward between the original and the copy, eventually sealing off the gap and releasing the now-completed copy into the larger environment.  It would be as though our printer, seen as a cube-like structure, were to remove one wall, extend its own frame to encompass a space the size of two printers, construct the internal components in that open space, and then rebuild two walls between the identical sections in order to release the completed copy.

Let us not forget that a truly autonomous self-replicating entity would also need to be able to locate and make use of its own materials and would need to be able to generate its own power from raw resources.  No convenient electrical cord plugged into the wall, please, nor any careful feeding of the printer filament by a user.  And for long-term successful replication over more than just a few generations, it would be critical to have various feedback and quality control mechanisms, error correction and the like.

The above is but the barest outline of what would be involved in building a truly self-replicating entity.  But as we think through some of these details (an activity that is, unfortunately, too often skipped by abiogenesis enthusiasts), we begin to get an inkling as to the scale of the problem.

We must remember, too, that every time we include a new part or an additional mechanism to assist with the self-replication process, that part or mechanism must too be replicated, requiring additional instruction sets, perhaps a reworking of the machine’s physical layout, and additional information about this new part or mechanism – how it is to be constructed, how it is to be assembled, how it is to function.

Indeed, every single time we add a new part, or in the vernacular of the materialistic evolution story, every time the nascent organism “evolves” a new function, that new function requires not only a careful integration into the whole, but the instruction set to implement and reproduce that new part.

The same principle holds in the biochemical world.  Let’s assume, through some miracle, that we discover a self-replicating molecule.  When that molecule “evolves” something additional, say a side strand polymer or a molecular complex, the self-replication process that formerly faithfully reproduced the simple molecule may no longer be up to the task.  The self-replication ability has to be re-worked, re-gained, re-programmed with every meaningful additional change or improvement to the nascent life form.

Self-replication needs to be seen for what it is: an additional, added capability beyond what is necessary for an organism to carry out its daily life functions.  It is simply true, a basic logical fact, that it is more challenging and complicated and difficult and sophisticated to design a machine that does X and self-replicates, than to design a machine that just does X.

The Big Picture

Self-replication is not a one-time origin of life problem.  Nor is it an occasional challenge at important junctures of the long evolutionary history of life.  At every stage of the evolution from a simple self-replicating molecule up to the most detailed and complex organism of the Earth – at every stage of the process, the ability to properly self-replicate has to, in essence, be reacquired.  This is almost never discussed openly and is rarely recognized for the massive conceptual problem that it is.

Thus self-replication, rather than being a basic kick-starting point at the beginning of the long road of evolution, instead itself lies at the end of an extremely complicated, sophisticated and specified design process.  Furthermore, every time something is added to assist in the self-replication process, the very adding requires a re-working of the self-replication process itself.

Don’t misunderstand.  This is not an infinite regress.  The self-replication process can be engineered and can be overcome.  But we do start to sense the scale of the problem.

Implications for the Abiogenesis Story

The materialist creation story, which places self-replication at the beginning of the evolutionary process is little more than a naïve just-so story, one that flies in the face of what we understand, not only of chemistry and physics in getting to the self-replicating molecule in the first place, but in the face of our engineering understanding of what is required for self-replication to function in the real world.

As a result, it is not just that abiogenesis is incomplete, with details remaining to be filled in.  It is not just that abiogenesis relies on numerous disputable physical and chemical factors from the reducing atmosphere to the primordial soup to the right energy source to the formation of information-rich molecules.  It is not just that abiogenesis is incomplete knowledge.  The abiogenesis paradigm, with its placement of self-replication as the first stage of development, is not just wrong due to various evidentiary details.  It is fundamentally flawed at a conceptual level.

I keep repeating this, because I want to be clear that this is not simply another in the long line of evidentiary critiques of this-or-that chemical or natural obstacle to abiogenesis.  This is a fundamental, central, irretrievable, conceptual problem with the idea.  A conceptual problem which separates abiogenesis from the realities of the physical world by such a deep and abiding chasm, that the concept of abiogenesis becomes not just mistaken, but actually anathema to knowledge.  It functions as a kind of anti-knowledge.  It is not just that, in accepting abiogenesis, one has learned something inaccurate or incomplete.  Rather, an individual’s view of the world and understanding of the science is actually worse off for ever having taken it seriously.

Conclusion

The abiogenesis paradigm – with self-replication as the starting point, the initial characteristic, of life – stands in stark contrast to physical, chemical and engineering realities.  Self-replication – the ability to timely and faithfully and accurately reproduce one’s own kind – far from being the first step, in fact lies at the end of a complex, carefully-coordinated, precisely-modulated, exquisitely-orchestrated, functionally-specified, information-driven process.  Speaking more poetically, self-replication – this remarkable ability to multiply and fill the Earth – is a creative end, the culmination of an organism’s existence, not its beginning.

The abiogenesis paradigm, attempts to stand this edifice on its head.  And without a sure foundation to stand on, the materialistic creation story crumbles.  Abiogenesis is not simply an incomplete paradigm.  It is fundamentally flawed.  As long as we insist on clinging to the outdated abiogenesis paradigm, one that is diametrically opposed to both the evidence and our real-world experience, we will never come to understand the beautiful and deep mystery that is life’s origin.

—–

* This insistence on self-replication being a critical aspect of evolution is not, in fact, correct.  However, that is a detailed topic that will have to wait for another day.

Comments
franklin and gpuccio: Terribly-worded question. My bad. Thanks for your thoughts. Of course there are many molecules that can perform different functions in organic systems (with the function depending on the particular organized system it is involved with). What I was really trying to drive at is whether a simple molecule outside of the organic context -- by itself, without being involved in a particular system -- can have multiple functions. Maybe "function" isn't even the right word; it is really just a question of which chemical act it can perform. For example, molecules can be sometimes classed as to whether they have the ability to bind, to catalyze, or to split some other molecule or reaction. What I was wondering is whether, at that very basic level, there are very many molecules that do more than one of these tasks. Can a molecule be both a binder and a cleaver, for example? If so, how common is this? I'm still not describing this very well, and maybe there isn't a clean distinction or way to view it. Maybe it just depends on the actual physical/chemical context the molecule is in? In which case we're back to having to look at particular cases.Eric Anderson
April 10, 2014
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Sal:
There are many self-replicators in nature, like crystals.
Nonsense. :) Crystals do not self-replicate. Crystals form when a precipitate distills out of a solution. And it occurs by pure dint of elemental chemistry plus gravity. An existing crystal, by getting larger when more precipitate distills onto the existing crystal, is not replicating itself. It makes no more sense to say that a crystal is self-replicating because more precipitate adheres to it, than it does to say that a puddle is "self-replicating" when it rains and the puddle grows larger, or to claim that a sand dune is "self-replicating" when more sand falls out of the blowing wind and makes the dune larger. Or the dust on my bookshelf is "self-replicating" because more of it has settled there over time. None of these processes -- processes, yes, by which a mass of collective particles can grow in size -- have anything to do with self-replication. Furthermore, all naturally occurring chemicals are "self-ordering" at the basic level. That does not mean they are self-replicating. ---- I of course agree with your larger point about the distinction between what we see in life and elsewhere in the natural world. Your question is excellent:
. . . how parts that would normally not organize when left to themselves end up in an organized state where they are interdependent and are able to replicate similar interdependent structures.
Eric Anderson
April 10, 2014
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Eric: The answer is yes, but there are different aspects that must be considered. For example, complex multi-domain proteins have many functions (each domain has usually one or more different biochemical function), which usually are part of a global meta-function. Enzymes have usually the main function of catalyzing a specific reaction, but they can have other functions too. A special case is that of molecules which act as transmitters of signals, for example peptidic hormones like insulin, and intracellular signal pathways. Hormones which bind to membrane receptors activate a signal which is in many ways transmitted to the nucleus. That signal can have different meanings in different cells, and activate different responses, even if the hormone is the same. The same is true of the pathways which transmit the signal from the membrane to the nucleus. The same pathway can generate different responses in different cells, or even according to the modulation of other signals and pathways. It is a system which is very similar to a neural system.gpuccio
April 10, 2014
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In other words, is it common for a single molecule to perform more than one activity/function?
well, yes it is common.
Do we know of any specific examples, or perhaps any wild guesses as to how many molecules can perform more than one function?
yes, there is no need to make any wild guesses when a bit of study of biochemistry (some very basic at that) provides the answer. For example: Hemoglobin, nitric oxide, sodium, and epinephrine as a four quick examples. Funny that you ask such a question.franklin
April 10, 2014
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Self replication isn't in and of itself the most important distinction for life. There are many self-replicators in nature, like crystals. The sort of self-replication in life isn't spontaneous, and isn't the expected outcome -- that's what makes life special. When I first studied the question in detail, I have to admit I thought there was a chance the problem was getting solved by things like the ghadiri peptide, which was an autocatylic reaction. Even the arguments for self-ordered crystals was compelling for a few minutes. Robert Hazen, Harold Morowitz and others advocate self-ordering properties of chemicals. But those explanations fail because the chemical properties of the molecules of life actually have slightly self-disordering and self-disorganizing qualities outside of organisms. Perhaps to illustrate with a house of cards. Cards left to themselves on a table subject to perturbation (wind, earthquakes, or other distrubances) will tend to remain un-organized. However they can be made to become a delicate structure of interdependent parts (cards) that make the whole (house of cards) possible. The OOL question is how parts that would normally not organize when left to themselves end up in an organized state where they are interdependent and are able to replicate similar interdependent structures.scordova
April 10, 2014
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Question for anyone who might know: How many "functions" does a single molecule typically have? For example, a molecule might assist with binding, it might be a catalyst, it might be a receptor, it might be a transporter, etc. Other molecules might be relatively inert on their own. In other words, is it common for a single molecule to perform more than one activity/function? Do we know of any specific examples, or perhaps any wild guesses as to how many molecules can perform more than one function? Thanks,Eric Anderson
April 10, 2014
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Eric: I am always willing to concede, when I know that I win anyway! That makes me look more openminded :)gpuccio
April 10, 2014
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Mung: That is a great page you linked to regarding diffusion, osmosis and movement across a membrane. Great stuff to think about. A bit of reflection is adequate to realize that even "simple" stuff like a passive membrane letting materials in by diffusion/osmosis, is not a "simple" matter. For example:
Movement of water into a cell can put pressure on plasma membrane. Animal cells will expand and may burst. Some cells, such as Paramecium have organelles called contractile vacuoles which are basically little pumps which pump excess water out of cell.
Sheesh, now we need pumps too, just to keep from blowing ourselves up! Lots to think about.Eric Anderson
April 9, 2014
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not reallyMung
April 9, 2014
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Eric:
I also want to put some pressure on the abiogenesis story by challenging the most basic and foundational assertion about how life came about: the formation of a simple self-replicating molecule in early Earth conditions. Many people (like you have done on this thread) are willing to grant the existence of self-replicating molecules. I am not. Not until I actually see one.
Oh my, you must have missed this thread, in which numerous examples of self-replicating molecules were presented for our inspection.Mung
April 9, 2014
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gpuccio@26: You are most welcome sir! The greatest barrier to the origin of life is, well, the barrier. :) If it's outside the barrier, how does it get in? If it's inside the barrier, how does it get out? If we have RNA or some other medium that might serve as a repository for the stored representation of information inside the membrane, where do the materials come from? What is the simplest scheme under which particles might move cross a membrane (in either direction) and what are the limits upon which particles may or may not pass across the barrier by such means? How do we assemble those materials into RNA/DNA? How do we get from diffusion, etc, to transport and pumps!? Diffusion, Osmosis, and Movement Across a Membrane In my humble opinion, this is a great untapped resource of ID exploration. But you are so right dear friend:
Establishing a separation between an inner environment and an outer environment, and generating definite differences between the two.
But I think the problem is so much greater than most people realize. They have no idea of the complexity of cell membranes, nor what it would take to get from some "primitive" membrane to what we have today. cheersMung
April 9, 2014
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"If you don’t have a system that is capable of Darwinian evolution, then it’s hard to make an argument that it’s a living system.” Does that mean that Coelacanths (and other "living fossils" are not living systems?johnp
April 9, 2014
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Sal, thanks for the kind comments. Lots of good discussion on various threads the last few days! EricEric Anderson
April 9, 2014
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gpuccio @28: Thanks for your comments. I understand you are willing to grant, for purposes of discussion, that the examples rna has referred to are "self-replicating." It is also true, that the most challenging issues for abiogenesis have to do with information content and control. I like your phrase: "a self replicating molecule which can be an useful first actor in an OOL scenario." That said, the examples rna has given (and every example I have seen thus far to date) are not self-replicating. They are simple downhill chemical reactions that were set up and made possible by an intelligent lab technician. We should not call them self-replicating molecules, because they aren't. Not in any meaningful sense of the word. It doesn't matter what the paper titles or headlines say. We should not concede that self-replicating molecules can and do exist until we are actually shown such a thing. There are numerous, insurmountable problems with abiogenesis. My primary thrust in the OP was to focus on what is required for self-replication in the real world, and the fact that such a characteristic has to be essentially re-acquired at every step along the way. However, as a secondary point, I also want to put some pressure on the abiogenesis story by challenging the most basic and foundational assertion about how life came about: the formation of a simple self-replicating molecule in early Earth conditions. Many people (like you have done on this thread) are willing to grant the existence of self-replicating molecules. I am not. Not until I actually see one. Until someone can give us an example of a molecule that meets at least the 4 criteria I outlined @19 above, we should continue to put pressure on this part of the abiogenesis story. Independent of information infusion and molecular machines and the like. Maybe it is just a question of degree, and I take your point about definitions. But I think there is value in requiring abiogenesis proponents to actually demonstrate that the very first step of abiogenesis, the basic foundational entity at the start of the great tree of life, is not just a figment of our imagination.Eric Anderson
April 9, 2014
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Eric:
It is an intellectual travesty that some people have gotten so enamored with the concept of evolution, indeed the specific Darwinian version of evolution, that they think life should be defined in terms of Darwinian evolution.
You are being very generous here! I would define it one of the most infamous examples of cognitive dishonesty and arrogance in the history of human cognitive activity. And that's just because I am in a compassionate mood :) Its only rightful companion, in that sense, is the infamous "statistical" argument which comes in many forms (hand of cards, lottery, etc.) and which states that unlikely events happen all the time. Well, no, that one is simply stupid. So, the darwin-centered definition of life is still the most infamous.gpuccio
April 8, 2014
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Eric: I think that the only problem here is of words. rna is using "self-replicating molecule" in a very literal chemical sense, and that can be correct, but it is not of any use in the discussion about OOL. We are using the concept in a different perspective. That's why I have tried to clarify that what is needed is "a self replicating molecule which can be an useful first actor in an OOL scenario", in the sense that it bears digital information which can be replicated by itself and passed to daughter cells. IOWs, at least a ribozyme which can self-replicate from simple nucleotides. I have also clarified that in principle such a molecule can exist, but long and painful years of human engineering have not yet been able to design it. rna has tried to argue that human engineering is not engineering, giving us a new example of an intelligent person who has to use explicitly wrong arguments when he has to defend what cannot be defended. Obviously, even if and when a self-replicating ribozyme is engineered, the following little problems remain: a) Could it arise in a non design way? The answer will be: no! (this is a prediction :) ). And please, don't tell me that RV + NS can do it! They can't, but that is not the point here. The point here is that NS, whatever it can or can't do, is simply not there unless and until we have at least a self-replicating ribozyme. Otherwise, we go back to AVS fairy tales about "selection" acting on inorganic molecules which have inadvertently been trapped in some "membrane". b) What is the environment needed? Almost certainly, the human ribozyme will need extremely favorable lab conditions, first of all high concentrations of available nucleotides. None of that can be explained by any reasonable theory. c) Where did the energy come from? Polymerization requires energy. d) How did the membrane divide regularly, without simply destroyng the "protocell"? And so on, and so on...gpuccio
April 8, 2014
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BA77 @20: It is an intellectual travesty that some people have gotten so enamored with the concept of evolution, indeed the specific Darwinian version of evolution, that they think life should be defined in terms of Darwinian evolution. I fully recognize that life is an enigma at some level and that defining it to satisfy every corner case is exceedingly difficult, perhaps impossible. But using Darwinian evolution as though it were the sine non qua of life demonstrates a thoroughly unwholesome worship of evolution. Unfortunately, to the materialist mindset all reality is a process of evolution, so they tend to think it underscores everything and "explains" everything. It is a trivial matter to think of a living organism that would not undergo Darwinian evolution. For example, let's suppose there were a single-celled organism that replicated faithfully without fail. No mistakes or mutations or deletions or insertions. Generation B is identical to A, and C is identical to B. Would we say that such an organism is not a form of "life" because it cannot undergo evolution? Of course not. Furthermore, most forms of life on Earth have never been known to undergo Darwinian evolution (assumed, yes; but not demonstrated), so it doesn't make sense to define them in terms of an unknown, hypothetical event that may or may not have occurred.Eric Anderson
April 8, 2014
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Mung: Thank you for the simplification! :)gpuccio
April 8, 2014
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Great discussion Eric, sorry I couldn't participate this round, I'm tied up on my own threads. I'm glad you talking about 3D printing, people need to appreciate how difficult it is to make a 3D copy!scordova
April 8, 2014
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rna: Tentatively, it looks like my suspicions have been borne out. I've now looked at a summary of the 2006 Philip paper you mentioned (as well as the later 2008 study. Interesting work, to be sure, and Prof. Philip and his colleagues should be commended for their efforts. Again, however, this is essentially a situation in which the researcher builds component parts of a molecule that can bind to each other. At most, this kind of situation might be called "guided replication", but it is not a situation in which a molecule is actually self-replicating from basic elements. Again, if a replication requires the hand of the researcher to help get the replication going (to build the subcomponents, for example), then it is, by definition, not "self" replication. ----- I'm just thinking out loud here, but maybe we need to distinguish between simple chemical reactions in which A automatically binds to B from a replication process in which the replicating system actually controls the process in some manner. For example, there is no question that we can inject two types of atoms/molecules that have binding affinity into a beaker and they will begin to bind together to form a new product. But we wouldn't refer to that as any kind of self-replication. The reaction will simply continue by pure biochemical necessity until the components are exhausted or until an equilibrium is reached in the solution. It is pretty clear that this is not of any help in getting the abiogenesis process off the ground. How much farther along are we if we do the same thing, but this time instead of, say, an inert product, we use components of a catalyst for that particular reaction? As the components come together in the mixture they form a catalyst, which in turn speeds the formation of similar catalysts. Yes, it goes faster in an exponential fashion. Yes, at first blush it seems like we might be witnessing some form of "self-replication." But the catalyst wasn't really performing a replicative function. All it was doing is its normal catalytic job which -- due to the researcher's prior careful selection of component molecules -- just happened to result in production of more catalyst. Substantively, we end up at the exact same result as we did with our first example. Namely, the reaction continues until either the reaction takes over the solution or, if applicable to the particular situation, equilibrium is reached. In either case all we have witnessed is a basic downhill chemical reaction, one that just continues until it runs out. I'm not sure there is anything here that could be called self-replication in any meaningful sense. It doesn't seem to represent any self-replication situations that we see in the living world. Certainly not anything that exhibits control over the process, that has the ability to create anything that is not a pure driven-by-necessity chemical process, nothing that is able to build strings that aren't linked by chemical necessity (nucleotide strings, for example), nothing that is able to create and maintain a far-from-equilibrium environment like living cells do.Eric Anderson
April 8, 2014
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gpuccio:
So, here is a short list of what, IMO, is truly essential for life, and therefore for its origin: a) Establishing a separation between an inner environment and an outer environment, and generating definite differences between the two.
That's the really short list!
b) Acquiring energy from the [outer] environment
Across the membrane. See a).
c) Living “far from equilibrium”.
See a).Mung
April 8, 2014
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From the OP: Heather Catchpole: Have you put any thought into the beginning of life and into what kicked that off? Dawkins: Not personally. 'Nuff said.Mung
April 8, 2014
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Of somewhat related note to the preceding Bible verse, 'non-classical' biophotonic emission from humans is greater in the facial area:
Photocount distribution of photons emitted from three sites of a human body - 2006 Excerpt: Signals from three representative sites of low, intermediate and high intensities are selected for further analysis. Fluctuations in these signals are measured by the probabilities of detecting different numbers of photons in a bin. The probabilities have non-classical features and are well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons. Measurements with bins of three sizes yield same values of three parameters of the squeezed state. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520060 Strange! Humans Glow in Visible Light – Charles Q. Choi – July 22, 2009 Schematic illustration of experimental setup that found the human body, especially the face, emits visible light in small quantities that vary during the day. B is one of the test subjects. The other images show the weak emissions of visible light during totally dark conditions. The chart corresponds to the images and shows how the emissions varied during the day. The last image (I) is an infrared image of the subject showing heat emissions. http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/006/481/original/090722-body-glow-02.jpg?1296086873 ‘I was in a body and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head. It had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And ‘it’ was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.’ - Vicky Noratuk’s Near Death Experience (Blind From Birth) part 1 of 3 youtube
Of somewhat related note, the facial area on the Shroud of Turin received a greater intensity of 'non-classical' light from the facial area in the formation of the image:
Shroud of Turin - The Historical Trail 2004: Another result of the restoration was the discovery of the Shroud's double face image. Italian scientists, Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolio of Padova University were able to analyze scans of the backside of the Shroud after it was removed from the backing cloth. This had never been done before. The previous backing cloth had been attached since 1534 as part of the restoration following the fire of 1532. Examining the scans revealed faint superficial images of the face and hands. The image occurs only on the top surface of the fibers, similar to the front side of the Shroud but there is no coloring of the threads in between. http://shroud2000.com/FastFacts.html The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values - Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio - 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the 'quantum' is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271 Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
Moreover, 'life' is found to precede material reality. In fact, due to advances in quantum mechanics, the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit
That pretty much blows a hole in your definition of life as merely self-replication doesn't it rna? But why would you look for the living among the dead in the first place? Verse and Music:
In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? Lucie Silvas - Nothing Else Matters http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QohUdrgbD2k
bornagain77
April 8, 2014
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rna, What is your definition of 'life'? As far as I can tell, the most basic definition of life for an atheist/materialist is defined as the capacity of a set of molecules to self replicate and undergo Natural Selection:
WHAT DID FIRST LIFE LOOK LIKE? “I really think that the crucial step, where I would say that these molecules became lifelike, is when two types of polymers cooperated with each other.” —Nicolas Hud, Georgia Tech “I think you don’t really have life until you’ve got natural selection operating, and I don’t see it as operating on anything less than something like RNA.” —Nick Lane, University College London “A self-sustaining chemical system capable of evolution. If I’m in a dark alley with a gun to my head, that’s the definition I’m going to give.” —Niles Lehman, Portland State University “It’s hard to define life, a satisfying definition for life, but basically all of them, I think, would have the word evolution in them. If you don’t have a system that is capable of Darwinian evolution, then it’s hard to make an argument that it’s a living system.” —Michael Robertson, Scripps Research Institute http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/39252/title/RNA-World-2-0/
In my personal opinion, something has been severely ‘lost in translation’ with the materialists definition of life.,,, The Bible has a far different, and more clear, definition of what is dead and what is alive:
Biblical Definition of Death as separation Excerpt: 1. Physical Death The separation of the body and soul 2. Spiritual Death The separation of the man from God 3. Hell as the second spiritual separation from God http://www.bible.ca/d-death=separation.htm
But in order for the Theistic claim to be true, that life comes from God (and that life does not end with the death of our temporal bodies), there must be something beyond space in time present within life. Do we evidence of such a beyond space and time, i.e. transcendent, entity within molecular biology? Yes! There is evidence of ‘non-local’, beyond space and time quantum information/entanglement in the molecular biology of living organisms on a massive scale:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/
It is very interesting to note that 'non-local' quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure 'quantum form' is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints, should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale, for how can the quantum entanglement 'effect' in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) 'cause' when the quantum entanglement 'effect' falsified material particles as its own 'causation' in the first place? (Bell, A. Aspect, A. Zeilinger) Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various 'special' configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! Also of note, this 'quantum information' that is found in molecular biology on a massive scale is also found to be 'conserved':
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
also of note, matter and energy both reduce to ‘non-local’ quantum information. Quantum information does not reduce to matter and energy as the Materialists/Atheists presuppose:
Quantum Teleportation of a Human? – video https://vimeo.com/75163272
Moreover,
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Steve Talbott Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,,Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings
So where does this quantum information go upon the death of an organism if it cannot be destroyed? i.e. Do all dogs go to heaven? In regards to materialism being unable to explain any of this quantum stuff coherently, it is interesting to note that Theism has always postulated a transcendent component to man that is not constrained by time and space. i.e. Theism has always postulated a 'living soul' for man that lives past the death of the body!
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
bornagain77
April 8, 2014
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rna: The Kiedrowski paper from 1986 was not an example of a self-replicating molecule, as I've already discussed above, notwithstanding the title of the paper or the headlines. If you'll permit me to retain my skepticism for a while longer, I suspect the other papers you cited are also not examples of a self-replicating molecule. There have been too many claims and headlines over the past 30 years for me to buy in without further review and a healthy dose of skepticism. Nevertheless, thanks for the papers you mentioned. Hopefully I can get a chance to look at them soon. Please note, I have no doubt that a self-replicating system can be developed. But a single self-replicating molecule, I doubt it. I would be very interested in a truly, legitimate self-replicating molecule. Then I would be interested to know whether such molecule has any realistic chance of forming on its own, rather than being carefully constructed with specific procedures in the lab. Then I would want to know whether it could exist outside of the lab in real-world conditions. Think what is required for a self-replicating molecule, as proposed by abiogenesis. At a minimum: - The molecule has to form under natural conditions, without help from a lab technician. - The molecule then has to be able to make copies of itself by locating and ordering specific atoms or small molecules, not by simply catalyzing a reaction between previously-prepared sections of itself (like the original Kiedrowski paper you cited, or the more recent RNA example by Lincoln and Joyce). - The molecule has to be stable enough to exist in real-world conditions (the proverbial primordial soup) without breaking down too quickly and without getting bogged down with interfering cross reactions. - The molecule, at least to be a precursor for evolution, must have the capacity to mutate, while still retaining the ability to faithfully replicate its now-mutated self. Let me know if you are aware of anything that meets these basic requirements. As far as I am aware, there is nothing like this that has been discovered. This of course also does not address the additional challenge of the self-replication process needing to be reacquired on a nearly constant basis as the alleged proto-organism increases in complexity and capability, but that is a separate issue.Eric Anderson
April 8, 2014
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rna: Very simple answers: a) "Technically" just meant that they are self-replicating, but not in the sense that could help an OOL rna based theory. Nothing more. Those systems are too simple, and in no way can help explain the generation of complex informational molecules, like a ribozyme. b) Nucleotides do not contain the kind of information we usually refer to in ID, for example, using my terminology, dFSCI. That kind of digital information is linked to a sequence of nucleotides or AAs, and is exactly the information that is passed in cell reproduction. You certainly understand very well that RNA has been chosen for a faschionable OOL scenario exactly because it has two properties: digital information content that can be transmitted in reproduction, and catalytic activity. So, it sums up some of the qualities of DNA and of proteins. The informational content is linked to the nucleotide sequence, which is then related to chemical prpoperties of the final molecule. It is something completely different from the chemical information that every molecule has for the simple fact that it exists. Life is based on digital information expressed as a sequence of basic molecules (an alphabet). If we are trying to explain OOL, that's the kind of information that we must explain. That's the kind of information that must be self-reproduced. c) Here, you seem not to understand a fundamental difference that has been debated many times here. Those molecules are the result of human engineering. It is that kind of bottom up engineering that uses random variation as part of the algorithm, and intelligent selection. It is design in every sense. It is completely different from the supposed algorithm in neo darwinisn theoy, which depends on random variation and natural selection. The fundamental difference between NS and IS, and in their abilities and powers, has been debated many times here. IS is always design, and it confers huge advantages to the system. IS is very powerful. NS is not. I will not go into detail now, but if you want we can deepen that discussion. Your final example with Galileo is pointless. Galileo observed the jupiter moons, but did not select them out of many other things for any further intervention in an experiment. That has nothing to do with what we are debating, as should be obvious to you too.gpuccio
April 8, 2014
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gpuccio @10 "The examples you quote are technically “self-replicating” molecules, ..." So what is the difference between technically "self-replicating" molecules and really self-replicating molecules? "... What is really needed, the “Holy Grail”, is an information bearing molecule which can have catalytic action to self-replicate its information from non information bearing simpler molecules ..." So some of the building blocks used for the construction of self-replicating molecules by chemists for instance have the ability to form 3 hydrogen bonds in a spatially defined manner, undergo stacking interactions etc. ... Thus, their "information content" is very similar to the "information content" of a nucleotide as the building block of dna/rna. The organic self-replicators contain exactly the amount of information needed to make copies of themselves even in the presence of competing reaction pathways, inhibitors etc. ... Or do you think that nucleotides do not contain information and only rna/dna does? "... As I quoted in a previous post, the best examples of that are at present ribozymes of almost 200 nts, still extremely inefficient, and they are the product of long and painful human engineering..." That is in my opinion a slightly twisted description of what happens in the selection experiments from where these ribozymes come. The selection starts with a random pool of sequences, normally 10Exp14-15 molecules. For the experiment it is desirable to have the sequences in the pool as random as possible. The "engineering" part as you call it goes into the methods to fish out those sequences from the pool that have the desired function from this random pool. It is a bit as saying that the jupiter moons are engineered because galileo designed the telescope he used to observe them.rna
April 8, 2014
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Eric Anderson @11: I quoted the Kiedrowski paper from 1986 on purpose because it is the first "proof of principle" description for a simple self replicating molecule and since your post explicitly mentioned a simple self-replicating molecule. "... Indeed, you can take it to the bank that if a simple self-replicating molecule is ever discovered ..." - Remember? Of course research has not stopped there. For instance the problem with product inhibition observed in this early example which you mentioned has been overcome in other systems: e.g. Wang and Sutherland, Chem. Comm., 1997, 1495 Kindermann et al. Angewandte Chemie Int. Ed., 1991, Vol. 41, 6908 "Systems Chemistry: Kinetic and Computational Analysis of a Nearly Exponential Organic Replicator" Kassianidis and Philp, Angewandte Chemie Int. Edition, 2006, vol. 45, 6344 ... In addition, self-replicating systems with more than three building blocks have been developed. There are systems were self-replication functions faithfully in the presence of competing reactions and in the presence of other molecules and inhibitors (not yet the chaotic primordial soup you mention but still ...). So stable self-replicating molecules are not just a theoretical possibility as you state in @14 but a practical experimental reality. It is also interesting to note that a number of different classes of molecules are capable of self-replication. So the ability to self-replicate is apparently nothing exotic in the world of chemistry or somehow restricted to biomolecules.rna
April 8, 2014
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InVivoVeritas @13:
This is the single element of your post that I would like to understand. Maybe I am not reading it correctly.
I think we're on the same page. Maybe I can describe it this way. Abiogenesis stories typically work something like this: random chemical reactions -> simple self-replicating molecule -> infusion of information -> generation of complex molecular apparatus, sophisticated membrane, control mechanisms, etc. However, in the real world, from a fundamental engineering standpoint, in order to have stable self replication, we need those molecular apparatus and mechanisms. Thus, the real path to self-replication is: careful planning and design* -> infusion of information -> generation of complex molecular apparatus, sophisticated membrane, control mechanisms, etc. -> self replication Thus, the abiogenesis story has it exactly backwards. It posits the idea that self-replication can be a simple, first step in the evolutionary process -- the step from which all others, including information infusion, arise. But self-replication is not a simple process; it is not something that can function properly without all those other systems and all that information already in place. As you say, self-replication requires all those other things in order function properly. So we can't start with self-replication, we have to start with those other things. So the idea of self-replication being the starting point is precisely backwards. It is fundamentally flawed. The only reason the idea lives on is because people don't carefully think through what is required for self-replication. If they did they would realize we can't start with self-replication. Rather, self replication is the result of having information, a sophisticated membrane, energy acquisition apparatus, copying and construction mechanisms, controls and so on. ----- * Note: This step, at least in theory, could be replaced with "random chemical reactions." There is of course no evidence that such reactions could produce information and sophisticated molecular machines. So there is an evidentiary problem with that approach. But at least it would be a logically coherent approach, in that it would recognize the fact that self-replication cannot function without information and the various molecular apparatus in place.Eric Anderson
April 8, 2014
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InVivoVeritas @13:
I want to make a speculative claim also: a hypothetical self-replicating molecule is a logical impossibility.
Well, that is why I literally laughed out loud when I read Dawkins' statement. This self-replicating molecule is a key part of the abiogenesis idea, of the materialist creation story. Yet no-one has ever, to my knowledge, seen or even engineered such a thing. I also suspect such a thing has never existed. In theory I think a self-replicating molecule might be technically possible, but it would be a single "molecule" only by dint of having multiple functional parts linked together to make it a "single" molecule. In other words it would really be a molecular complex, but could perhaps technically be called a "single" molecule if it is all bound together. Even then, however, such an entity would have little chance of functioning very long in the real world (certainly not in a chaotic primordial soup) without a protective membrane and the other capabilities you mention. Thus, I would say that although a self-replicating molecule might be theoretically possible, it would be a rather complicated beast and would be limited to functioning only in the protective lab environment, with no chance of functioning in the real world. My view is that the hypothetical self-replicating molecule required by the abiogenesis story is just that -- a hypothetical. Something that has existed only in the minds of theorists. As a result, the abiogenesis story itself is just that -- a story. This is a large part of what I am trying to point out. Most critiques of abiogenesis focus on the reducing atmosphere, or the difficulty of forming particular polymers, or the homochiralty problem, or the need to infuse information. Many critics either grant or assume that it is possible to have a self-replicating molecule, but point out other problems with the abiogenesis paradigm. These critiques are all true and constitute a devastating indictment of the abiogenesis paradigm, particularly the need for infusion of information. Yet the abiogenesis proponent keeps falling back on the idea that if they can just get a simple self-replicating molecule going, then natural selection will take care of all the rest, including the information infusion. (This is precisely the tactic used by AVS, for example, in his recent exchanges on the other thread). So I am going a step further in my critique and taking away this last refuge of the materialist creation story. I argue that the very idea of a self-replicating molecule is nonsense. The very notion of self-replication being the first step (or even an early step) in the creation process is fundamentally flawed at the deepest level. That being the case, then the materialistic creation story never gets to the point where the magic of natural selection can be called upon. The whole enterprise never gets off the ground.Eric Anderson
April 8, 2014
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