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Atheism’s problem of warrant (–> being, Logic and First Principles, No. 23)

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Atheism seems to be on the table these days here at UD and a few points need clarification.

First up, what is Atheism?

The usual dictionaries are consistent:

atheism
n. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dh?s- in Indo-European roots.]

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

atheism
n (Philosophy) rejection of belief in God or gods
[C16: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos godless, from a-1 + theos god]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014

a•the•ism
n. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
[1580–90]
Random House Kernerman Webster’s College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

atheism
the absolute denial of the existence of God or any other gods.
-Ologies & -Isms. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

However, from at least the 1880’s, there has been a claim by some advocates of the same, that what is meant is someone without faith in God.

(This tends to serve the rhetorical purpose of claiming that nothing is asserted and it can be taken as default, demanding that theists provide “compelling” warrant for faith in God. Where, often, this then leads to selectively hyperskeptical dismissals, sometimes to the degree of claiming that “there is no evidence” that supports the existence of God. [Of course, the no evidence gambit should usually be taken as implying ” there is no evidence [that I am willing to acknowledge].” Through that loophole, as fair comment, a lot of clearly question-beggingly closed minded hyperskepticism can be driven.)

There are many varieties of atheists, including idealistic ones that reject the reality of matter. However at this juncture in our civilisation, the relevant form is evolutionary materialistic, often associated with the scientism that holds that big-S Science effectively monopolises credible knowledge. (Never mind that such a view is an epistemological [thus philosophical and self-refuting] view. Evolutionary materialism is also self-refuting by way of undermining the credibility of mind.)

A key take-home point is that atheism is not an isolated view or belief, it is part of a wider worldview, where every worldview needs to be responsible before the bar of comparative difficulties: factual adequacy, coherence, balanced explanatory power. Likewise, given the tendency of modern atheism to dress up in a lab coat, we must also reckon with fellow travellers who do not explicitly avow atheism but clearly enable it.

So, already, we can see that atheism is best understood as disbelief — NB, Dicts: “refusal or reluctance to believe”/ “the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true” — in the existence of God, claimed or implied to be a well warranted view; not merely having doubts about God’s existence or thinking one does not know enough to hold a strong opinion. It inevitably exists as a part of a broader philosophical scheme, a worldview, and will imply therefore a cultural agenda.

(I add: Note by contrast, AmHD on agnosticism: “The belief that the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities cannot be known with certainty. “ Where, of course, certainty comes in various degrees, starting with moral certainty, and where knowledge, as commonly used often speaks to credibly warranted beliefs taken as true but not typically held as utterly certain beyond any possibility of error or incompleteness. We not only know that 2 + 3 = 5, but we claim knowledge of less than utterly certain facts and theories. For instance, in the mid 2000’s, the previous understanding and “fact” that Pluto was the 9th Planet of our solar system was revised through redefining Pluto as a dwarf planet.)

It will be further helpful (given objections that suggest inapt, distorted caricature) to excerpt from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, as appears at comment 11:

“Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods).

This definition has the added virtue of making atheism a direct answer to one of the most important metaphysical questions in philosophy of religion, namely, “Is there a God?” There are only two possible direct answers to this question: “yes”, which is theism, and “no”, which is atheism. Answers like “I don’t know”, “no one knows”, “I don’t care”, “an affirmative answer has never been established”, or “the question is meaningless” are not direct answers to this question.

While identifying atheism with the metaphysical claim that there is no God (or that there are no gods) is particularly useful for doing philosophy, it is important to recognize that the term “atheism” is polysemous—i.e., it has more than one related meaning—even within philosophy. For example, many writers at least implicitly identify atheism with a positive metaphysical theory like naturalism or even materialism. Given this sense of the word, the meaning of “atheism” is not straightforwardly derived from the meaning of “theism”. . . . .

[A] few philosophers and quite a few non-philosophers claim that “atheism” shouldn’t be defined as a proposition at all, even if theism is a proposition. Instead, “atheism” should be defined as a psychological state: the state of not believing in the existence of God (or gods). This view was famously proposed by the philosopher Antony Flew and arguably played a role in his (1972) defense of an alleged presumption of “atheism”. The editors of the Oxford Handbook of Atheism (Bullivant & Ruse 2013) also favor this definition and one of them, Stephen Bullivant (2013), defends it on grounds of scholarly utility. His argument is that this definition can best serve as an umbrella term for a wide variety of positions that have been identified with atheism. Scholars can then use adjectives like “strong” and “weak” to develop a taxonomy that differentiates various specific atheisms. Unfortunately, this argument overlooks the fact that, if atheism is defined as a psychological state, then no proposition can count as a form of atheism because a proposition is not a psychological state. This undermines his argument in defense of Flew’s definition; for it implies that what he calls “strong atheism”—the proposition (or belief in the sense of “something believed”) that there is no God—is not really a variety of atheism at all. In short, his proposed “umbrella” term leaves strong atheism out in the rain. [–> which makes little sense]

Although Flew’s definition of “atheism” [thus] fails as an umbrella term, it is certainly a legitimate definition in the sense that it reports how a significant number of people use the term. Again, there is more than one “correct” definition of “atheism”. The issue for philosophy is which definition is the most useful for scholarly or, more narrowly, philosophical purposes.

We can go further.

For, we all have intellectual duties of care in general and as regards worldviews and linked cultural agendas. There are particular, inescapable associated duties to truth, right reason, prudence (including warrant), sound conscience, fairness, justice, etc. To see why such are inescapable, consider the consequences of a widespread rejection of such duties: ruinous chaos that would undermine rationality itself. Reason is morally governed.

Also, given that post Godel, not even sufficiently complex mathematical systems are subject to proof beyond doubt, that one cannot provide absolute demonstration is not at all the same as that one does not have adequate warrant to hold responsible certainty about key points of knowledge. In this context, the issue is reasonable, responsible faith in a credible worldview. Where, the claim one has “absence of belief in” God is often patently evasive. Why such a strange lack?

Could it be that one knows enough to realise that trying to disprove the reality of God is an almost impossible task, once there is no demonstrable incoherence in the theistic concept of God? (Where, we note, that the old attempt to use the problem of evil to lead to such a contradiction has failed; a failure that is particularly evident, post-Plantinga.)

Now, such is significant, especially given point 7 from the recently cited six-country study on atheists:

7. Also perhaps challenging common suppositions: with
only a few exceptions, atheists and agnostics endorse
the realities of objective moral values, human dignity and
attendant rights, and the ‘deep value’ of nature, at similar
rates to the general populations in their countries. (3.1)

A key to this, is the already mentioned point that our mental lives are inescapably under moral government, through undeniably known duties to “truth, right reason, prudence (including warrant), sound conscience, fairness, justice, etc.” The attempt to deny such rapidly undercuts rational discussion and the credibility of thought and communication, much as is implicit in what would happen were lying to be the norm. So, one who rejects the objectivity of such duties discredits himself.

However, it is also possible to hold an inconsistency; accepting objective morality but placing it in a framework that undermines it.

A start-point is to see that our rationality is morally governed through said duties. This means, our life of reason operates on both sides of the IS-OUGHT gap, requiring that it be bridged. That can only be done in the root of reality, on pain of ungrounded ought. And no, indoctrination, socialisation and even conscience do not ground ought. We need that the root of reality is inherently and essentially good and wise, a serious bill to fill.

You may dispute this (so, as a phil exercise, provide an alternative _____ and justify it _____ ), but it is easy to show that after many centuries of debates there is just one serious candidate: the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. One, worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature. This is the heart of ethical theism.

There is another angle. How much of reality do we know, how much of what is knowable do we actually hold, and how much of that is certain beyond future correction? The ratio is obviously trending infinitesimal; even dismissing Boltzmann brain scenarios, Matrix worlds and Plato’s cave worlds etc.

So, what if what is required to know God is, is beyond what one happens to know, or what one is willing to acknowledge?

In short, the positive affirmation that there is no God is arguably an act of intellectual irresponsibility, given our inability to show that being God is incoherent and our effectively infinitesimal grasp of what is knowable.

Let me add a table, as a reminder on logic of being:

Indeed, as it is easy to see that reality has a necessary being root (something of independent existence that therefore has neither beginning nor end), given that traversal of the transfinite in finite temporal-causal steps is a supertask and given that were there ever utter non-being, as such has no causal powers that would forever obtain, if a world now is, something thus always was. Thus, too, the question is: what that necessary being is, and that is further shaped by our being under moral government starting with our rationality.

Where also, a serious candidate to be a necessary being either is, or is impossible of being as a square circle is impossible of being. Where, a necessary being is a world-framework entity: a component of what is necessary for there to be any world. God as historically understood through theism is clearly such a serious candidate (if you doubt, kindly justify: ____ ), and so the one who poses as knowing that God is not implies having warrant to hold God impossible of being. Where, given the centrality of root of reality, ducking the question is clearly irresponsible.

In short, asserting or implying atheism requires a serious — and unmet — burden of warrant. END

Comments
Seversky quotes:
No doubt the mother has a right to decide what shall happen in and to her body
That is WRONG. Do illegal drugs in front of the police and watch your "right" to go to prison. And once a woman gets pregnant it is no longer just her body. What our moron atheists seem to forget is that we are morally obligated to follow the law.ET
July 18, 2019
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Brother Brainless, You are living an a stupid woke fantasy land. Trying to get anywhere near an abortion doctor or patient when they are in the abortion mill to do their killing will get you violently subdued by security, likely arrested, and your life otherwise messed up. So your fruity little hypothetical comparison of apples and oranges is worthless like most of the rest of your comments. Andrewasauber
July 18, 2019
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KF
such alleged dilemmas appeal to the principles they would overturn to have any persuasiveness
That is a cogent and decisive answer to the sort of moral outrage and various dilemmas that are put forward in place of a real discussion. There is always an appeal to principles.Silver Asiatic
July 18, 2019
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KF
The answer to oh is it acceptable to carry out violence against an abortionist — set in the context of dismissiveness to concerns over the ongoing slaughter of our innocent posterity in the womb at about a million further victims per week (and 800+ millions in 40+ years) — is that resort to lawless conduct of vigilantism is just as wrong as any other form of lawless behaviour.
We both know that this is just an equivocation. You would use whatever violence was necessary to prevent someone from intentionally harming a baby, a child or an innocent adult. As would I and most other people. We would consider the violence to be morally justified as long as it wasn't excessive. I find it strange that you would can justify a measured level of violence to protect a single individual, but would not use a similar level of violence to protect the lives of 800+ million innocent lives.Brother Brian
July 18, 2019
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Sev
In other words, if you assume that the right to life is paramount, to what extent are you morally obliged to sacrifice your own interests or even life to preserve that of another?
I find it interesting that most of us find it morally acceptable to use an appropriate level of violence to protect a baby, a child or any innocent person. But the same people would not think it morally acceptable to use an appropriate level of violence to protect a fetus from an abortion doctor. Where is that objective moral governance when you need it?Brother Brian
July 18, 2019
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F/N: The case for God in a one-liner nutshell: Jesus of Nazareth and his resurrection (with over 500 witnesses and its impact). Perhaps, it is advisable to refresh our thoughts through Morison's challenge:
[N]ow the peculiar thing . . . is that not only did [belief in Jesus’ resurrection as in part testified to by the empty tomb] spread to every member of the Party of Jesus of whom we have any trace, but they brought it to Jerusalem and carried it with inconceivable audacity into the most keenly intellectual centre of Judaea . . . and in the face of every impediment which a brilliant and highly organised camarilla could devise. And they won. Within twenty years the claim of these Galilean peasants had disrupted the Jewish Church and impressed itself upon every town on the Eastern littoral of the Mediterranean from Caesarea to Troas. In less than fifty years it had began to threaten the peace of the Roman Empire . . . . Why did it win? . . . . We have to account not only for the enthusiasm of its friends, but for the paralysis of its enemies and for the ever growing stream of new converts . . . When we remember what certain highly placed personages would almost certainly have given to have strangled this movement at its birth but could not – how one desperate expedient after another was adopted to silence the apostles, until that veritable bow of Ulysses, the Great Persecution, was tried and broke in pieces in their hands [the chief persecutor became the leading C1 Missionary/Apostle!] – we begin to realise that behind all these subterfuges and makeshifts there must have been a silent, unanswerable fact. [Who Moved the Stone, (Faber, 1971; nb. orig. pub. 1930), pp. 114 – 115.]
Let us now turn to the real issue, warrant for the core of the gospel. Once there is serious warrant, we need to ponder whether we are willing to live by the truth and right that we know or should know. To begin, let us ponder the minimal facts approach that looks at relevant consensus facts of scholarship regarding Jesus, as Habermas has studied and documented for a generation. Yes, I know it is in the linked but obviously unless it is put in thread, it seems it will not be faced. Summarising from Apologetics Wiki:
The minimal facts method only uses sources which are multiply attested, and agreed to by a majority of scholars (ranging from atheist to conservative). This requires that they have one or more of the following criteria which are relevant to textual criticism: Multiple sources – If two or more sources attest to the same fact, it is more likely authentic Enemy attestation – If the writers enemies corroborate a given fact, it is more likely authentic Principle of embarrassment – If the text embarrasses the writer, it is more likely authentic Eyewitness testimony – First hand accounts are to be prefered Early testimony – an early account is more likely accurate than a later one Having first established the well attested facts, the approach then argues that the best explanation of these agreed to facts is the resurrection of Jesus Christ . . . . [Source: “Minimal facts” From Apologetics Wiki. Full article: here. (Courtesy, Wayback Machine.)]
A list of these facts can be compiled, up to a dozen:
1. Jesus died by crucifixion [–> which implies his historicity!]. 2. He was buried. 3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope. 4. The tomb was empty (the most contested). 5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof). 6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers. 7. The resurrection was the central message. 8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem. 9. The Church was born and grew. 10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship. 11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic). 12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).
Why are such generally accepted? As I summarised:
That a Messiah candidate was captured, tried and crucified — as Gamaliel hinted at — was effectively the death-knell for most such movements in Israel in the era of Roman control; to have to report such a fate was normally embarrassing and discrediting to the extreme in a shame-honour culture. The Jews of C1 Judaea wanted a victorious Greater David to defeat the Romans and usher in the day of ultimate triumph for Israel, not a crucified suffering servant. In the cases where a movement continued, the near relatives took up the mantle. That is facts 1 – 3 right there. Facts 10 – 12 are notorious. While some (it looks like about 25% of the survey of scholarship, from what I have seen) reject no 4, in fact it is hard to see a message about a resurrection in C1 that did not imply that the body was living again, as Wright discusses here. Facts 5 – 9 are again, pretty clearly grounded. So, the challenge is to explain this cluster or important subsets of it, without begging questions and without selective hyperskepticism.
It is not hard to see why the old objections commonly seen since C17 – 18 have fallen by the wayside; they just cannot cover the facts. Today, there are two men left standing: the historic Christian view and some sort of mass hallucination theory. Of these, the latter is exceedingly problematic, as ” collective visions are not psychologically plausible as the cultural expectations of a resurrection would have been of a general one in the context of the obvious military triumph of Israel. Nor, does it explain the apparently missing body. Moreover, we know separately, that the culturally accepted alternative would have been individual prophetic visions of the exalted that on being shared would comfort the grieving that the departed rested with God.” This issue of the twelve minimal facts and the challenge of alternative explanations is the guilty secret at the heart of today’s hyperskepticism toward, dismissal of, apostasy from and hostility against the historic Christian faith. KFkairosfocus
July 18, 2019
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BB & Seversky, There has been yet another attempt to drag off topic, compounded by refusal to acknowledge existence of an answer to the general claim of how moral dilemmas allegedly undermine moral government; cf. 419 above. But in fact this argument refutes itself from the outset as those who pose it appeal to our recognition of the binding nature of duties to truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, fairness and justice etc. If these duties are disregarded, rationality and responsibility as well as community evaporate. The whole rhetorical exercise pivots on gliding by a key contradiction and so we properly hold that moral government and its world root reality requisites are real, undeniably real. Now, we see further posing of alleged cases pursuing the same end. The answer to oh is it acceptable to carry out violence against an abortionist -- set in the context of dismissiveness to concerns over the ongoing slaughter of our innocent posterity in the womb at about a million further victims per week (and 800+ millions in 40+ years) -- is that resort to lawless conduct of vigilantism is just as wrong as any other form of lawless behaviour. The solution is to peacefully present the truth and to restore the law to sanity. That is the real problem and as you full well know, vigilantism will also only further lock in the insanity that acts under false colour of law. A living human being is a natural person and the correct presumption is such that living human beings should be protected under law. The project of dehumanisation and un-person-ing under false colour of law speaks for itself given history. The made up scenario refutes itself on many grounds, starting with that the child in a woman's womb (half the time not the same sex) is not artificially connected as a result of kidnapping but is naturally present as the result of human biology. We are undermining the natural bond between generations through our current insanity. As to the question of obligation to defend or protect another life -- and notice how all the way such alleged dilemmas appeal to the principles they would overturn to have any persuasiveness -- consider a very real case: when confronted by the rising threat of nazism, conscription was imposed under law in order to build up armed forces to fight and if needs be die. That should be answer enough in principle to show the fallacious nature of these appeals. We also can observe the studious continued absence of a response on merits to the main issues for the thread. That speaks, given allegations of no evidence and claims of default in favour of atheism. KF PS: I think there is a place to distinguish just from unjust use of force, and to confine the ambiguous word violence to the latter.kairosfocus
July 18, 2019
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Brother Brian @ 421
Given this, is it morally acceptable to break the hands of an abortion doctor to save dozens of innocent unborn lives? Is it morally acceptable to confine a woman who is trying to procure an abortion until she gives birth?
Exactly so, and lurid references to holocausts do not do justice to the moral dilemma which is why I mentioned Judith Jarvis Thomson's paper A Defense of Abortion . In it, she gives the standard 'right to life' argument against abortion thus:
I propose, then, that we grant that the fetus is a person from the moment of conception. How does the argument go from here? Something like this, I take it. Every person has a right to life. So the fetus has a right to life. No doubt the mother has a right to decide what shall happen in and to her body; everyone would grant that. But surely a person's right to life is stronger and more stringent than the mother's right to decide what happens in and to her body, and so outweighs it. So the fetus may not be killed; an abortion may not be performed.
I should say that I tend to agree with that argument. I think the concept of personhood is too vague to be of use and is, in any event unnecessary. We only need to argue that the right to life should attach to any individual human being - the physical entity - at any detectable stage of development. However, she then proposes this hypothetical scenario:
It sounds plausible. But now let me ask you to imagine this. You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, "Look, we're sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you--we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist is now plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it's only for nine months. By then he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you." Is it morally incumbent on you to accede to this situation? No doubt it would be very nice of you if you did, a great kindness. But do you have to accede to it? What if it were not nine months, but nine years? Or longer still? What if the director of the hospital says. "Tough luck. I agree. but now you've got to stay in bed, with the violinist plugged into you, for the rest of your life. Because remember this. All persons have a right to life, and violinists are persons. Granted you have a right to decide what happens in and to your body, but a person's right to life outweighs your right to decide what happens in and to your body. So you cannot ever be unplugged from him." I imagine you would regard this as outrageous, which suggests that something really is wrong with that plausible-sounding argument I mentioned a moment ago.
In other words, if you assume that the right to life is paramount, to what extent are you morally obliged to sacrifice your own interests or even life to preserve that of another?Seversky
July 17, 2019
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[--> SNIP, further attempt to drag thread], OWNER] let’s move to a subject that you talk about at the drop of a hat. The holocaust of blood guilt of the posterity in the womb, or whatever you call it. I think we both agree that it is morally acceptable to use some level of violence to prevent the imminent violence against an innocent person. It is morally acceptable to hit someone who is trying to rape a girl. Or to forcibly hold back someone who is beating on a handicapped person. Given this, is it morally acceptable to break the hands of an abortion doctor to save dozens of innocent unborn lives? Is it morally acceptable to confine a woman who is trying to procure an abortion until she gives birth?Brother Brian
July 17, 2019
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SA, yes, and this is where it points -- Plato, in The Laws, Bk X:
Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]
KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2019
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F/N (& attn BB): Now that I have worked through a sufficient initial summary giving food for thought on theism, let us pause to deal with an attempted argument in claimed warrant {!!!!!!!} of atheism, from moral dilemmas. That is, circumstances where at least apparently, there are no morally good {!!!!!!!} choices for at least one agent x, whose inaction will also end in an evil and deep guilt {!!!!!!} either naturally or by imposition of an oppressive power acting in the situation. This argument is already patently incoherent as it appeals to duties to truth, to warrant, to justice etc in order to try to undermine same. Where, already, if we are not actually duty-bound to truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, justice etc, there not only are no moral dilemmas but we have set loose the utter undermining of responsible rationality. Therefore, those who pose it are enabling utter demonic nihilism. Which is the surest way to find ourselves under evil powers who will try to lock us into corrupting, soul-tainting evil. So, the argument condemns itself at outset: it is imprudent, evil, corrupting, manipulative, oppressive, fundamentally deceptive counsel. Second, as was long since already pointed out in 397 above, Boethius in his classic Consolation of Philosophy identifies a pivotal flaw in any antitheistic argument that appeals from evil against God: "If God exists, whence evil? But whence good, if God does not exist?" Arguments that appeal to our innate knowledge that evil is real and to be rejected, depend inescapably on the reality of evil and so also of good, thence our inescapable duties to reason and the right, which start by governing our intellectual faculties through our known duties to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to fairness, to justice etc. Thus they inadvertently highlight that we operate on both sides of the IS-OUGHT gap and that this must be bridged in the only place where such is possible, the roots of reality. For which, as noted, there is just one serious candidate: the inherently good and utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. One, who is worthy of our loyalty and of the responsible, reasonable service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature. Manifestly, such duties of justice include that we should not set up oppressive institutions, powers and decrees that trap people into enabling evil or into participating in it. That manifestly holds for dictatorships setting up concentration camps where a guard can trap a mother by telling her there is not enough space so you pick which of your sons will be killed now or both will be killed if you refuse to choose which lives and which dies. It also holds for cases where immoral conduct is claimed as a right under false colour of law and those who refuse to enable evil as though it were the right are subjected to crippling penalty under false colour of law -- which corrupts the judiciary and law enforcement systems. Which, BTW, is exactly how we end up with Gestapos acting wickedly under false colour of law enforcement. It holds for exposing the evils of slavery as was pointed out in 372 above on the case of Onesimus and Paul:
A classic biblical instance is that of Paul, in Rome as an appeals prisoner having already been forced to appeal to Nero from the Jerusalem hierarchy seeking to assassinate him, and with his neck already literally on the line. He is closely guarded by soldiers (traditionally actually chained to one). Suddenly, Onesimus comes to him, having escaped as a slave and apparently having stolen money. To harbour an escapee is already another capital charge, and to directly challenge Roman law and institutions would be to confirm the accusation he was already facing. He sends Onesimus back home, with the letter Philemon that in effect exerted influence and principles to utterly undermine such oppressions, clearly leading to manumission. Also, teaching principles of equality, dignity, brotherhood and responsible liberty. Later, we would hear of a Bishop Onesimus, and some suggest this is he, also that he may have been a key figure in collecting what is now our NT.
Notice, what is going on here:
I pause to pick up a point that has too often been used to warp our moral judgements, to induce us to accept yet another crooked yardstick. I see you are trying the old moral dilemma talking point on casting one value above another. It does not demonstrate what those who pushed “values clarification” etc thought. What it means is that in a world where evil (even demonic evil) can have power, sometimes our only realistic choice is the least of evils; which is still not a pure good. Hence, fighting a war with the Nazi state [--> the most widely acknowledged case of recent, entrenched demonic evil in control of the organs of state power and law], using realistic means and accepting that to fight will cost much. Starting with rivers of blood and a devastated continent, continuing through horrific waste of economic resources and leading to needing to race towards nukes as you know the pioneers who discovered the principles were on the other side. Also knowing that information security is absolutely vital. And much more, lessons best learned from a deep, sound understanding of lessons of history paid for with blood and tears. [--> That is, sound record of hard bought experience is the only effective guide to dealing with existential moral dilemmas]
I then drew out a conclusion:
So now, how to answer the demonic Gestapo? By first recognising that when evil dominates we can face genuine moral dilemmas and must recognise that innocent life is a first right without which there are no rights — the exact principle why many of us look with horror on the ongoing abortion holocaust and refuse to enable it. And, extending to our own circumstances, those who vote in evil are enablers of evil, here, voting in holocaust is on the table. A lot closer to home than imagining some new Gestapo.
Now, let us consider another key case, St Maximilian Kolbe, at Auschwitz. For, they overcame the wicked one by the power of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death:
After the outbreak of World War II, which started with the invasion of Poland by Germany, Kolbe was one of the few brothers who remained in the monastery, where he organized a temporary hospital.[5] After the town was captured by the Germans, he was briefly arrested by them on 19 September 1939 but released on 8 December.[2][5] He refused to sign the Deutsche Volksliste, which would have given him rights similar to those of German citizens, in exchange for recognizing his ethnic German ancestry.[16] Upon his release he continued work at his friary, where he and other friars provided shelter to refugees from Greater Poland, including 2,000 Jews whom he hid from German persecution in the Niepokalanów friary.[2][11][12][16][17] Kolbe received permission to continue publishing religious works, though significantly reduced in scope.[16] The monastery continued to act as a publishing house, issuing a number of anti-Nazi German publications.[2][11] On 17 February 1941, the monastery was shut down by the German authorities.[2] That day Kolbe and four others were arrested by the German Gestapo and imprisoned in the Pawiak prison.[2] On 28 May, he was transferred to Auschwitz as prisoner 16670.[18] Continuing to act as a priest, Kolbe was subjected to violent harassment, including beating and lashings. Once he was smuggled to a prison hospital by friendly inmates.[2][16] At the end of July 1941, one prisoner escaped from the camp, prompting SS-Hauptsturmführer Karl Fritzsch, the deputy camp commander, to pick ten men to be starved to death in an underground bunker to deter further escape attempts. When one of the selected men, Franciszek Gajowniczek, cried out, "My wife! My children!", Kolbe volunteered to take his place.[8] According to an eyewitness, who was an assistant janitor at that time, in his prison cell, Kolbe led the prisoners in prayer. Each time the guards checked on him, he was standing or kneeling in the middle of the cell and looking calmly at those who entered. After they had been starved and deprived of water for two weeks, only Kolbe remained alive. The guards wanted the bunker emptied, so they gave Kolbe a lethal injection of carbolic acid. Kolbe is said to have raised his left arm and calmly waited for the deadly injection.[11] He died on August 14. His remains were cremated on 15 August, the feast day of the Assumption of Mary.
Nazism seized power in Germany by pretending to be a vehicle of deliverance, but was manifestly tainted by evil nihilistic practices. Once it gained some power, through ruthless opportunism it exploited the Reichstag fire set by a deranged Dutch boy, to hold a show trial for the communist party and to trick the legislature into an enabling act for dictatorship for seven years. Then, it introduced ever growing demonic evils and oppressions, crushing those who dared stand on principle and conscience. This was the main cause of WW2, with perhaps 85 millions needlessly dead in Europe and Asia etc. It is not for nothing that Churchill said that there never was a more easily averted war. So, in our day, I point to the abortion holocaust and how it and things connected to it are corrupting our civilisation. And yes, I dare to echo the White Rose Martyrs and name such as demonic evil. When it comes to pretended rights, I simply say that to justly claim a right, one must be manifestly in the right. Something that must be soundly warranted, coming full circle to the duties that govern our intellectual faculties. Duties, which are inescapably moral, are instruments of moral government. And so, again, it comes back to the point Boethius made 1500 years ago while awaiting execution on an unjust charge: "If God exists, whence evil? But whence good, if God does not exist?" KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2019
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Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.
Something has to preceed a potential motion in order for the potential to be converted to actual motion. It's the same way with causality. A thing cannot cause itself because it would have to exist before it existed in order to be the cause that caused itself to exist.Silver Asiatic
July 17, 2019
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F/N: What about the Ontological argument of Anselm? Ironically, it appears in an OBJECTION (part of the standard structure of the Summa approach):
Whether the existence of God is self-evident? Objection 1: It seems that the existence of God is self-evident. Now those things are said to be self-evident to us the knowledge of which is naturally implanted in us, as we can see in regard to first principles. But as Damascene says (De Fide Orth. i, 1,3), "the knowledge of God is naturally implanted in all." Therefore the existence of God is self-evident. Objection 2: Further, those things are said to be self-evident which are known as soon as the terms are known, which the Philosopher (1 Poster. iii) says is true of the first principles of demonstration. Thus, when the nature of a whole and of a part is known, it is at once re- cognized that every whole is greater than its part. But as soon as the signification of the word "God" is understood, it is at once seen that God exists. For by this word is signified that thing than which nothing greater can be conceived. But that which exists actually and mentally is greater than that which exists only mentally. Therefore, since as soon as the word "God" is understood it exists mentally, it also follows that it exists actually. Therefore the proposition "God exists" is self-evident. Objection 3: Further, the existence of truth is self-evident. For whoever denies the ex- istence of truth grants that truth does not exist: and, if truth does not exist, then the propos- ition "Truth does not exist" is true: and if there is anything true, there must be truth. But God is truth itself: "I am the way, the truth, and the life" (Jn. 14:6) Therefore "God exists" is self-evident. On the contrary, No one can mentally admit the opposite of what is self-evident; as the Philosopher (Metaph. iv, lect. vi) states concerning the first principles of demonstration. But the opposite of the proposition "God is" can be mentally admitted: "The fool said in his heart, There is no God" (Ps. 52:1). Therefore, that God exists is not self-evident. [--> he then starts the familiar remark on self-evidence that already appears above:] I answer that, A thing can be self-evident in either of two ways: on the one hand, self- evident in itself, though not to us; on the other, self-evident in itself, and to us . . .
Aquinas here is speaking about self evidence and whether God is self-evident. In doing so he uses Anselm's compressed remarks as speaking to objections, which are not actually endorsed. At any rate, it is clear that the argument is skeletal, there seems to be a huge suppressed context. When that has been elaborated, we end up with some form of discussion about logic of being, necessity vs contingency, maximal greatness, thus modality. And modality is at least pointed to as Anselm is saying "that which exists actually and mentally is greater than that which exists only mentally." What exists only mentally would be at best a possible being of contingent character, which would indeed be inferior to a necessary world root being. Where, we are looking for a necessary, world root being, given the failures of infinite regress and circular cause of origin, so the debate is of what character. Which then brings to bear the existence of morally governed creatures and the need for an inherently good (and so utterly wise) creator God as that necessary being. Maximal greatness points to a unique being to fill the bill: a necessary, world-root maximally great being who is inherently good and utterly wise. We can then add in something like, by which all men understand, such is God. The ontological argument takes importance as it frames things like the eternity of God, his greatness, his goodness, his being world root, and forces us to reflect on these in light of the logic of being. Where possible worlds semantics allows us to give a fairly sharp focus to such things. In that context, we can note that there are features of the cosmos that point to a first cause source with significant aspects of such characteristics, that there is evidence of purpose through signs of design (and indeed let us remember, cell based life through DNA has in it language and algorithms!), that contingent entities in reality point to a necessary being root with again key charascteristics. Moral government also points to the world root. So, we can perhjaps best consider this world of discussion as looking at convergent lines of observations, insights and linked reasoning -- collectively, evidence -- that form a mutually supportive framework pointing to the rationality and reasonableness of accepting the reality of God. This, before one actually may encounter him personally and be transformed by him, or, actually we may argue that a sound conscience is already his voice within, regulating our thought, speech, decisions and behaviour. Those who so hastily and so insistently declare that there is "no evidence" pointing to God, are patently ill-advised. The atheistical "default" claim evaporates. KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2019
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KF
I answered enough above by giving a concrete case study, Paul and Onesimus.
In the comment where I included the Nazi example and the other examples of whether homosexuals are morally obligated to tell the truth when asked about their sexual attraction during a job interview [ --> again, you try to drag the thread into the sewer. You are a primary person who has made the claim in thread there is no evidence supporting the reality of God, and as that evidence has been adduced in part and in summary at 101 level, you are found consistently pulling off on a side track that pivots on disgusting and irrelevant issues. I gave a classic case study on addressing moral dilemmas when life is on the line, which takes in by extension cases that are less involved, thus provides sufficient food for thought on the subject of moral dilemmas forcing choices across evils and also the way that such has been abused in recent decades to try to undermine moral principles and the objectivity of morality. That stands as my sufficient answer, I have no obligations to follow up on every side-track. KF] , I predicted that you would jump all over the nazi example but completely ignore the more subtle sexual attraction examples. You did not disappoint. [--> I documented the actual prediction on the table, that when time would be spent on addressing the evidence regarding world root reality, it would be likely indeed that such would not be addressed. The past several days shows that this is just what has happened. It seems that there is only a rhetorical, talking point gambit behind the no evidence and default atheism claims. Were there a serious argument, it would be all over the Internet.]
I have no obligation to indulge a thread drag through the sewer.
How is discussing the moral value of telling the truth and your claim that we are bound by moral governance, using real world examples, dragging the thread through the sewer? [--> You know full well the nature of the examples you chose, especially given that they were discussed in a recent thread. An adequate answer on a real moral dilemma with multiple lives on the line has been given, only to be ignored and mischaracterised for days. I have the right to infer, therefore, that the examples being given reflect an obsessive insistence on dragging down into the sewer. Notice, also the substitution of "governance" -- a synonym for the politics of decision-making -- for government, a subtle strawman twisting of the actual issue. The attempt to thereby suggest that we are not under moral obligation thus bound by duties to truth, right reason, prudence, fairness and justice etc speaks volumes on the corrosive effects of undermining the binding nature of moral government. the subtle amorality and nihilism that this points to, speak for themselves. Plato's warning was right. And, evil forever seeks to impose a crooked, corrupt yardstick of power and manipulation in the place of the right. ]
thread dragging off topic and through the sewer yet again have utterly nothing to do with atheism’s warrant challenge, nor the roots of morality as a part of accounting for origins.
How does the issue of your opinion of moral values and moral governance off topic and not directly related to atheism's "warrant challenge"? [--> this utterly mischaracterises this thread from the OP on and further warrants the conclusion that we are seeing a peristent attempt to derail a serious discussion that the objector raised but now finds it hard to address on the merits, not even by linking sources online.] These are fundamental to the warrant of theism, and atheism is is the counterpoint to theism. [--> First, the problem of moral dilemmas was adequately responded to on a key case study of civlisational significance. let's just say that it is not by accident that the motto of the Antislavery Society was taken from Philemon. Moral dilemmas, real or imagined -- including, concealing of relevant serious moral flaws from prospective employers -- are not a true counterpoint to theism. next, theism is not thereby undermined or overthrown, and the direct discussion of evidence which is being ducked still remains to be addressed cogently. Beyond that, theism vs atheism are not the only possible or actual worldviews options, so the issue of warranting atheistical worldviews on their own merits remains, and remains unaddressed by objectors tot he message in the OP. The attempt to dismiss a serious argument by use of a drag to the sewer distractor, fails.]
No, your twisting of the matter is what speaks.
How is directly addressing the issue of your OP using real world examples a twisting of matters? [--> there is a direct matter, addressed on the merits with considerable substance, not replied to, and distractors are posed. These are answered through a pivotal real world case on moral dilemmas, which is not addressed either. This goes to lack of serious intent.] When and when we are not morally obligated to tell the truth is at the heart of this issue. The fact that you refuse to discuss it using real world examples that call it in to question speaks volumes about your view. [--> attempted turnabout, based on further misrepresentations, fails. There is a main subject on the table and it will be addressed. if this objector were to work his way through the case of Onesimus, he would see more than enough of an answer. KF]Brother Brian
July 17, 2019
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PS: Gracyk excerpts the text:
The existence of God can be proved in five ways. The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God. The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God. The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence--which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God. The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God. The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.
Again, a marker of a pivotal point, and at that a summary of arguments drawn out by the Angelic doctor in more details, as Feser emphasises.kairosfocus
July 17, 2019
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F/N: A sampler from Aquinas in Summa Theologica -- a highly structured introduction and summary, first on self-evidence:
I answer that, A thing can be self-evident in either of two ways: on the one hand, self- evident in itself, though not to us; on the other, self-evident in itself, and to us. A proposition is self-evident because the predicate is included in the essence of the subject, as "Man is an animal," for animal is contained in the essence of man. If, therefore the essence of the pre- dicate and subject be known to all, the proposition will be self-evident to all; as is clear with regard to the first principles of demonstration, the terms of which are common things that no one is ignorant of, such as being and non-being, whole and part, and such like. If, however, there are some to whom the essence of the predicate and subject is unknown, the proposition will be self-evident in itself, but not to those who do not know the meaning of the predicate and subject of the proposition. Therefore, it happens, as Boethius says (Hebdom., the title of which is: "Whether all that is, is good"), "that there are some mental concepts self-evident only to the learned, as that incorporeal substances are not in space." Therefore I say that this proposition, "God exists," of itself is self-evident, for the predicate is the same as the subject, because God is His own existence as will be hereafter shown (Q[3], A[4]). Now be- cause we do not know the essence of God, the proposition is not self-evident to us; but needs to be demonstrated by things that are more known to us, though less known in their nature- --namely, by effects.
To see the self-evident as such, one has got to first access it through a proper basis of experience, understanding and insight. But to get there can be a challenge in a world where many are induced to use crooked yardsticks as standards for straight, accurate, upright. To break that, one needs plumbline, self evident truths and first principles, that one is willing to acknowledge. Where, mental debasement and attachment to the false can induce some to reject formerly acknowledged principles and points of knowledge because they lead, not to the actually absurd, but where one would not go. Note, where I begin here. Now, let us use the Wiki summary of the five ways, which are picked up from classical philosophy:
The quinque viae (Latin "Five Ways") (sometimes called "five proofs") are five logical arguments regarding the existence of God summarized by the 13th-century Catholic philosopher and theologian St. Thomas Aquinas in his book Summa Theologica. They are: the argument from metaphysical motion; the argument from efficient causation; the argument from contingency; the argument from degrees of being; the argument from final causality ("teleological argument"). Aquinas expands the first of these – God as the "unmoved mover" – in his Summa Contra Gentiles . . . . A summary version of the Five Ways is given in the Summa theologiae[7] The Summa uses the form of scholastic disputation (i.e. a literary form based on a lecturing method: a question is raised, then the most serious objections are summarized, then a correct answer is provided in that context, then the objections are answered), and the Five Ways follow Medieval Theories of Demonstration. A subsequent, more detailed, treatment of the Five Ways can be found in the Summa contra gentiles.[1] Aquinas further elaborated each of the Five Ways in more detail in passing in multiple books. Essential and Accidental Causal Chains The first two Ways relate to causation. When Aquinas argues that a causal chain cannot be infinitely long, he does not have in mind a chain where each element is a prior event that causes the next event; in other words, he is not arguing for a first event in a sequence. Rather, his argument is that a chain of concurrent or simultaneous effects must be rooted ultimately in a cause capable of generating these effects, and hence for a cause that is first in the hierarchical sense, not the temporal sense.[8] Aquinas follows the distinction found in Aristotle's Physics 8.5, and developed by Simplicius, Maimonides, and Avicenna that a causal chain may be either accidental (Socrates' father caused Socrates, Socrates' grandfather caused Socrates' father, but Socrates' grandfather only accidentally caused Socrates) or essential (a stick is moving a stone, because a hand is simultaneously moving the stick, and thus transitively the hand is moving the stone.)[9] An accidental series of causes is one in which the earlier causes need no longer exist in order for the series to continue. ... An essential series of causes is one in which the first, and every intermediate member of the series, must continue to exist in order for the causal series to continue as such.[1] —?"Agellius" (paraphrasing Fesser), The First Cause Argument Misunderstood His thinking here relies on what would later be labelled "essentially ordered causal series" by John Duns Scotus.[10] (In Duns Scotus, it is a causal series in which the immediately observable elements are not capable of generating the effect in question, and a cause capable of doing so is inferred at the far end of the chain. Ordinatio I.2.43[11]) This is also why Aquinas rejected that reason can prove the universe must have had a beginning in time; for all he knows and can demonstrate the universe could have been 'created from eternity' by the eternal God.[12] He accepts the biblical doctrine of creation as a truth of faith, not reason.[9]
This is surprisingly well balanced given source. I would actually note that there is relevance here as from the premise that no-thing is non-being were there ever utter nothing such would forever obtain. So, in reality, something always was and is, the root. Which, we can consider to be a world -- to later be identified as God. God who, as root of communicative reason and responsible moral government, will also be seen to be personal, acting with thought and will. So, it is appropriate to think more broadly than our particular world of temporal-causal succession through finite stages, which indeed is seriously challenged to extend and span to a beginningless thus implicitly transfinite past given the supertask implied. In effect, to argue for such is to imply that at any given finitely remote, past finite duration stage k [think years for convenience], there was already k-1, k-2, etc without limit, effectively begging the question of the supertask of transfinite traverse. Wiki makes an observation:
In the Summa theologiciae presentation, Aquinas deliberately switched from using the term demonstrabile (a logical or mathematical proof) to using probile (an argument or test or proving ground). [6] A more accurate translation would be "The existence of God can be argued for in five ways." That he deliberately switched terms away from a term used for proof indicates a signal of an intent or nuance.
Now, let us see skeletal summaries, through Graycik:
http://web.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/aquinasfiveways_argumentanalysis.htm The First Way: Argument from Motion 1 Our senses prove that some things are in motion. 2 Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion [--> this uses the idea of potential --> motion or change --> actualisation, it is broader than physical movement]. 3 Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion. 4 Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another). 5 Therefore nothing can move itself. [--> I would add, directly, given f/b loops and cybernetic systems] 6 Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else. 7 The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum. [--> not temporal sense but antecedent] ________ 8 Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God. The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes 1 We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world. 2 Nothing exists prior to itself. 3 Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself. 4 If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect). 5 Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists. 6 If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now. 7 That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes). 9 Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past. _____________ 10 Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God. The Third Way: Argument from Possibility and Necessity (Reductio argument) 1 We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, that come into being and go out of being i.e., contingent beings. 2 Assume that every being is a contingent being. 3 For each contingent being, there is a time it does not exist. 4 Therefore it is impossible for these always to exist. 5 Therefore there could have been a time when no things existed. 6 Therefore at that time there would have been nothing to bring the currently existing contingent beings into existence. 7 Therefore, nothing would be in existence now. 8 We have reached an absurd result from assuming that every being is a contingent being. 9 Therefore not every being is a contingent being. ____________ 10 Therefore some being exists of its own necessity, and does not receive its existence from another being, but rather causes them. This all men speak of as God. The Fourth Way: Argument from Gradation of Being 1 There is a gradation to be found in things: some are better or worse than others. 2 Predications of degree require reference to the “uttermost” case (e.g., a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest). 3 The maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus. [--> Is this in effect a tree, pointing to root?] ________________________ 4 Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God. The Fifth Way: Argument from Design 1 We see that natural bodies work toward some goal, and do not do so by chance. 2 Most natural things lack knowledge. 3 But as an arrow reaches its target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieves goals by being directed by something intelligence. ____________ 4 Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.
This is of course 800 years ago, these are related to how we think now but are cited and summarised as a pivotal historical point not the be-all, end all. KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2019
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F/N: Feser gives us a live case in point:
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2009/03/straw-men-and-terracotta-armies.html most of what the average contemporary secular philosopher thinks he “knows” about the traditional arguments of natural theology and natural law theory is nothing but a hodgepodge of ludicrous caricatures, and the standard “objections” to these arguments, widely considered fatal, in fact have no force whatsoever. If such philosophers’ continued employment depended on demonstrating some rudimentary knowledge of (for example) the actual views of Thomas Aquinas, many of them would be selling pencils. Consider this breathtaking example from an introductory book on philosophy:
The most important version of the first cause argument comes to us from Thomas Aquinas (1225-74). The argument runs like this: everything that happens has a cause, and that cause itself has a cause, and that cause too has a cause, and so on and so on, back into the past, in a series that must either be finite or infinite. Now if the series is finite is [sic] must have had a starting point, which we may call the first cause. This first cause is God. What if the series is infinite? Aquinas after some consideration eventually rejects the possibility that the world is infinitely old and had no beginning in time. Certainly the idea of time stretching backwards into the past forever is one which the human mind finds hard to grasp… Still we might note here that Aristotle found no difficulty in [this] idea. He held that the world has existed forever. Aristotle’s opinion, if correct, invalidates the first cause argument. [From Jenny Teichman and Katherine C. Evans, Philosophy: A Beginner’s Guide, Second [--> as in, there was opportunity to learn, correct and update] edition (Blackwell [--> as in the publishers who later threatened to pulp the Enc of Christian Civ], 1995), p. 22.]
Now, I don’t need to tell you what’s wrong with this, right? Maybe I do. Teichman and Evans are not liars, after all; they just don’t know any better. And if this is true of two professional philosophers, it’s bound to be true of many non-experts. Explaining everything that is wrong with this travesty of Aquinas would take several pages, and since you can find those pages in The Last Superstition, I direct the interested reader there. But very briefly: Aquinas nowhere in his case for God’s existence argues that the world had a beginning in time; indeed, he rather famously argues that it cannot be proved that it had such a beginning. Nor was he unfamiliar with Aristotle’s views on this subject, given that Aquinas was – again, rather famously – probably the greatest Aristotelian after Aristotle himself, and the author of many lengthy commentaries on The Philosopher’s works. What Aquinas seeks to show in all of his arguments for God’s existence is not the existence of a first cause who operated at some point in the distant past to get the world going, but rather one who is operating here and now, and at any moment at which the universe exists at all, to keep the world going. And part of his point is that the existence of such a God is something that can be proved even if the universe has always existed. (He did not actually believe it has always existed, mind you; he just didn’t get into the issue for the purposes of arguing for God’s existence.) I don’t mean to pick on Teichman and Evans. Indeed, I have profited from some of Teichman’s work, and I enjoyed her occasional contributions to The New Criterion back when she was writing for them several years ago. But this is not a mere slip of the pen. This is a basic failure to make sure one knows what one is talking about before writing on something of major importance. The reason Teichman and Evans could get away with it is that so many other philosophers get away with it routinely, and no one calls them on it. (Here’s a set of errors, by the way – far more egregious and undeniable than any error allegedly made in the Encyclopedia of Christian Civilization – that Blackwell not only didn’t threaten to pulp the book over, but even left in the second edition!) There are surely hundreds or even thousands of philosophers who think Aquinas is guilty of various fallacies because they simply don’t understand what his arguments are really about. And there are surely many more thousands of non-philosophers – including the students of the ignorant philosophers in question, and the readers of their works – who think the same thing. Widespread errors of this sort are an enormous part of the reason atheism has the respectability it has come to have.
That's a pretty sobering thought, on the gap between guild conventional wisdom (and what naive students or readers are led to imagine) and what reading original sources would show. In praxis of course most scholarship is busily engaging current debates and views, having little time to dig back hundreds or thousands of years. And often that works, but as C S Lewis advised, reading old books might be very useful in getting a corrective on the widespread errors of the present. And of course something like Wikipedia is going to be even more likely to reflect the problems being highlighted today. KF PS: This link by Feser on the Enc of Christian Civ, is eye-opening on the underlying problems of an ideologically polarised radically secularist age.kairosfocus
July 17, 2019
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F/N: In February, Reppert pointed out something that has become conventional textbook wisdom:
https://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2019/07/of-course-there-is-no-proof-of-gods.html Of course, there is no proof of God's existence The textbook that I use in Introduction to Ethics uses as an argument against the Divine Command theory the idea that there is no proof of God's existence. Of course there is a lot of debate about these arguments for God, and there is an atheist side to the discussion. What bothers me in the text is its assumption, without talking about any of the arguments, that of course there's no proof of God's existence. This is a popular belief in our culture, typically arrived at with no real study.
Why do textbook authors (so also the typical certificated "educated" person) think this? Likely, they echo the conventional wisdom of the guild of scholars in an age dominated by evolutionary materialistic scientism. A day in the which, were one to say the opposite or propose that the question is or should be open for consideration, one will be marginalised or even pounced on. For sure, a textbook cutting across the anonymous authority claim of such a conventional wisdom is unlikely to be recommended for adoption, unless it makes a clever argument indeed. Where, such an argument is not likely to be found in a 101 textbook or even a 201 intermediate. In short, dominance is self-sustaining, until it goes over the cliff's edge. In the meanwhile, an alternative needs to be worked through and persistently communicated (never mind distractions), until there is at least a growing recognition that the dominant narrative may have passed its sell-by date. Which is part of the justification for this thread of record. Where, in turn, the wider context is, theistic arguments and the warrant challenges of atheism are far broader than debates over design inferences. Never mind, that in a day dominated by scientism, it is important to redirect science to what is empirically warranted. Namely, there are indeed strong signs of design that are empirically reliable and analytically backed. Where also, such signs appear in the world of life and in the evident fine tuning of the observed -- the only actually observed -- cosmos. KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2019
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F/N: Often, when we see strawman caricatures of cosmological arguments, we find the supposition that theists start from "everything has a cause" and then try to get to a first cause. I am wondering if this is a misunderstanding of the PSR, driven by lack of understanding of associated logic of being. To wit, if one is unaware of the issue of necessary being, one may imagine that all beings are contingent. A reason -- that which makes sense of existence or non existence, rendering it at least intelligible in principle (if not in detail) -- is not synonymous with a cause. Hence, again the need for at least the sort of outline survey of logic of being that appears in the OP. KF PS: And no, attempts to drag the thread off track into dreary polarisations that serve only to distract and distance (even if simply driven by such being what appear to be burning, urgent issues) will not prevail. There are prior, foundational things that need to be sorted out if we are to return a civilisation that has lost its way to sanity and away from a crumbling cliff's edge.kairosfocus
July 16, 2019
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PS: And no, I will not allow this thread to be dragged down into the sewer, there was already a thread recently where such utterly distasteful and frankly disgusting issues were adequately aired and addressed. There is no need to obsessively rehash such over and over again.
So, you are not willing to answer a question directly related to what you say is our binding to God given moral governance and the moral value of not lying? [--> I answered enough above by giving a concrete case study, Paul and Onesimus; I have no obligation to indulge a thread drag through the sewer.] I thought that was one of the foundations of your entire argument. [--> thread dragging off topic and through the sewer yet again have utterly nothing to do with atheism's warrant challenge, nor the roots of morality as a part of accounting for origins.] But if you are not willing to address it, your lack of response says more than your words ever could. [--> No, your twisting of the matter is what speaks. KF]Brother Brian
July 16, 2019
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BB, If you will scroll up, you will see the following prediction regarding the at length laying out on core considerations, tied to challenges to address on comparative difficulties:
387 kairosfocus July 15, 2019 at 4:17 am (Edit) PREDICTION: Studious ignoring by objectors or else less than cogent responses. Please, prove me wrong: ______ . At any rate, something is needed for record. KF
I note, from 3 above:
3 Brother Brian June 30, 2019 at 3:17 pm (Edit) It seems to me that a Christian’s definition of an atheist carries as much weight as an atheist’s definition of a Christian.
That has been answered and the usual "no evidence" rhetorical gambit has been answered at first level. Only, to be dismissed as "verbiage" -- clearly indicative of the real balance on dealing with the merits. KF PS: And no, I will not allow this thread to be dragged down into the sewer, there was already a thread recently where such utterly distasteful and frankly disgusting issues were adequately aired and addressed. There is no need to obsessively rehash such over and over again.kairosfocus
July 16, 2019
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BB, the prediction is being borne out. KF
Are you referring to the prediction that you would jump all over my Nazi example but completely avoid the more nuanced examples of whether closeted homosexuals are obligated to say that they are sexually attracted to people of the same sex when asked during a job interview? Yes, that prediction was completely borne out. Several thousand words later, and you still have not answered this. Which, by the way, is completely on topic with the OP as it deals with what you say is the God given moral governance and the God given moral value of not lying. Arguments, such as yours, become less tenable when they can't soundly address these more nuanced examples. And become highly questionable when the people supporting the argument refuse to address them and project nefarious motives on those who raise them.Brother Brian
July 16, 2019
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PPPS: Notice, how the "there is no evidence" claim so often used by objectors to theism (and which is often a key component of so-called weak form atheism), is gradually evaporating? --> Do not overlook, that the appeal to [lack of] evidence implies an appeal to PSR.kairosfocus
July 16, 2019
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PPS: Feser has some onward remarks:
Della Rocca also remarks: I suspect that many of you simply will not see the force of the challenge that I am issuing to the non-rationalist. (I speak here from long experience, experience that prompted me to call my endeavor here quixotic.) Philosophers tend to be pretty cavalier in their use of explicability arguments -- using them when doing so suits their purposes, refusing to use them otherwise, and more generally, failing to investigate how their various attitudes toward explicability arguments hang together, if they hang together at all. We philosophers -- in our slouching fashion! -- are comfortable with a certain degree of unexamined arbitrariness in our use of explicability arguments. But my point is that a broader perspective on our practices with regard to explicability arguments reveals that there is a genuine tension in the prevalent willingness to use some explicability arguments and to reject others. Amen to that. As with the urban legend about First Cause arguments resting on the premise that “everything has a cause,” the notion that the PSR is a relic, long ago refuted, is a mere prejudice that a certain kind of academic philosopher stubbornly refuses to examine. It doesn’t matter how strong is an argument you give for PSR; he will remain unmoved. He “already knows” there must be something wrong with it, because, after all, don’t most members of “the profession” think so? Why, it’s almost as if such philosophers don’t want the PSR to be true, and thus would rather not have their prejudice against it disturbed.
He then goes on to suggest, that part of this is that PSR is in effect a key component of cosmological arguments [and we may add, modal ontological ones] that point to God. So, again, the question of alternative start-points for worldviews and why we choose them i/l/o comparative difficulties is on the table.kairosfocus
July 16, 2019
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PS: In my own discussion, after drawing forth the triple first principles LOI, LEM, LNC, I then go to number 4:
a fourth key law of sound thought linked quite directly to the above is the principle of sufficient reason , which enfolds the principle of cause and effect. Schopenhauer in his Manuscript Remains, Vol. 4, notes that: [PSR, strong form:] "Of everything that is, it can be found why it is." This, we may soften slightly into a weak form investigatory version that should be unobjectionable to reasonable thinkers . . . thus avoiding unnecessary side issues over the PSR, and will prove quite adequate for our purposes : [PSR, weak (investigatory) form:] Of any particular thing A that is [. . . or (ii) is possible, or even (iii) is impossible], we may ask, why it is [. . . or (ii') why it is possible, or (iii') why it is impossible], and we may expect -- or at least hope -- to find a reasonable answer. Of course, for any given case, X, we may simply directly proceed to ask why is X so, or why is X possible or why is X impossible, and seek a reasonable answer. So, the weak form as it stands is unobjectionable.
Cause-effect explanations arise, of course, for contingent beings. Being part of the framework for a world to exist, arises for necessary beings (and this is connected to the distinct identity of a particular world). Likewise, what is impossible of being is such that core characteristics are mutually contradictory, rendering such impossible of being. And, this summary of logic of being is already an outline explanatory framework of broad and arguably general character; albeit this is generic. That is, it seems the hope of reasonable explanation is not empty, though in our limitations, we know but little of what is in principle knowable. We are back to the centrality of the logic of being.kairosfocus
July 16, 2019
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F/N: Let us follow up a bit on the brute fact (vs "sufficient reason") concept -- and BB, a discussion of central issues is not mere empty verbiage [that reaction goes to the heart of the warrant issue raised in the OP and inadvertently exposes the hollowness of the atheistical default notion]. Such a brute facts argument, is generally set off against the concept that at some level entities in reality are or can be expected or hoped to be intelligible -- the sufficient reason principle. For relevant instance, on being challenged regarding this aspect of his atheism, in the 1948 BBC debate with Fr Copleston, Lord Russell's response was: "I should say that the universe is just there, and that’s all." The point being, on the Agrippa trilemma, there are three allegedly equally unpalatable alternatives. As SEP summarises, in discussing the principle of sufficient reason:
A third crucial problem for proponents of the PSR is how to address the Agrippan Trilemma between the apparently exhaustive three horns of: (i) acceptance of brute facts, (ii) acceptance of an infinite regress of explanation (or grounding), or (iii) acceptance of self-explanatory facts. Prima facie, each horn in the trilemma undermines the position of the proponent of the PSR.
One wonders why something which is, say, a necessary being world root, and so cannot not exist on pain of radical incoherence, undermines there being a reasonable basis, as opposed to a cause specifically, say. SEP goes on to note:
The term “Principle of Sufficient Reason [principe de raison suffisante/principium reddendae rationis]” was coined by Leibniz, though Spinoza is thought by many scholars to have preceded Leibniz in appreciating the importance of the Principle and placing it at the center of his philosophical system.[2] The Principle seems at first sight to have a strong intuitive appeal—we always ask for explanations—yet it is taken by many to be too bold and expensive due to the radical implications it seems to yield. Among the alleged consequences of the Principle are: the Identity of Indiscernibles, necessitarianism, the relativity of space and time, the existence of a self-necessitated Being (i.e., God), and the Principle of Plenitude.
Of course, there seems to be an allergy to powerful first principles out there, especially if they are suspected of supporting theism. At any rate, going further, SEP discusses Spinoza and what we can call a weak form PSR:
Spinoza’s earliest statement of the PSR appears in his first published work, the 1663 geometrical exposition of Descartes’ Principles of Philosophy. The eleventh axiom of Part I of the book states: Nothing exists of which it cannot be asked, what is the cause (or reason) [causa (sive ratio)], why it exists. In a brief explanatory note to this axiom, Spinoza adds: Since existing is something positive, we cannot say that it has nothing as its cause (by Axiom 7). Therefore, we must assign some positive cause, or reason, why [a thing] exists—either an external one, i.e., one outside the thing itself, or an internal one, one comprehended in the nature and definition of the existing thing itself. (Geb. I/158/4–9)[3] Axiom 7, to which Spinoza appeals in the explanation, is a variant of the “ex nihilo, nihil fit” (“from nothing, nothing comes”) principle, and stipulates that an existing thing and its perfections (or qualities) cannot have nothing or a non-existing thing as their cause. Interestingly, however, in another work from this early period of his philosophical writing, the Treatise on the Emendation of the Intellect, Spinoza allows for one unique item to be without a cause. In §70 of this treatise, Spinoza argues: [T]hat Thought is also called true which involves objectively the essence of some principle that does not have a cause, and is known through itself and in itself. (II/26/33–4. Our emphasis) It is not completely clear what “the principle [principium]” at stake is, but given its qualification as “known through itself and in itself”, it may refer to God and indicate Spinoza’s understanding of Descartes’ rather nuanced view—in his Second Set of Replies—according to which God does not need a cause in order to exist, but there is a reason why God does not need a cause (AT VII: 164–65; cf. Carraud 2002: Ch. 2).[4]
SEP also brings up Leibniz:
No philosopher is more closely associated with the PSR than Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1646–1716). He was the first to call it by name and, arguably, the first to formulate it with full generality. His treatment of the PSR is also noteworthy for its systematicity and the centrality that he accords it. Leibniz often presents it, along with the Principle of Contradiction, as a principle of “reasoning”. For example, in the Monadology he writes: 31. Our reasonings are based on two great principles, that of contradiction, in virtue of which we judge that which involves a contradiction to be false, and that which is opposed or contradictory to the false to be true. 32. And that of sufficient reason, by virtue of which we consider that we can find no true or existent fact, no true assertion, without there being a sufficient reason why it is thus and not otherwise, although most of the time these reasons cannot be known to us. (G VI, 612/L 646) These principles are characterized in what appears to be epistemic terms. They are principles of “our reasoning”. They concern what we “judge” or “find”. And yet it is clear that Leibniz intends them to have metaphysical as well as epistemic import. In the case of the PSR, this will become more evident when we discuss how Leibniz understands the notion of a sufficient reason but it is already indicated in the passage quoted above by the fact that Leibniz explicitly states that there are sufficient reasons for every truth or fact even if such reasons are unknowable by us. The scope of the PSR, as stated above, includes facts and truths. Leibniz sometimes, however, characterizes the scope of the principle in different terms. For example, he writes: [T]he principle of sufficient reason, namely, that nothing happens without a reason. (G VII 355; LC L2; AG 321, our emphasis) The PSR is here said to apply to what “happens”. This suggests a version of the PSR that applies not to truths or facts but rather events: Every event has a sufficient reason. These vacillations in the formulation of the PSR are not typically taken to register indecision on Leibniz’s part as to the scope of the PSR. Rather they are usually understood as indicating that Leibniz views the scope of the PSR to be very wide, perhaps even absolutely general, but at least wide enough to encompass facts, truths, and events (see Rodriguez-Pererya forthcoming). Leibniz associates the Principle of Contradiction and the PSR with a variety of domains where each is especially important. For example, there are domains where the truths of the domain depend on one of the two principles. These domains are characterized modally: The Principle of Contradiction rules over the domain of necessary truths and the PSR rules over the domain of contingent truths (A 6 4 1616/MP 75; G VII 355–56/LC 15–16). There are also domains that are characterized in terms of subject matter or areas of inquiry. The Principle of Contradiction allows us to study mathematics, whereas the PSR allows us to study metaphysics, natural theology, and physics (G VII, 355–6; LC L2; AG 321).
So, are key aspects of the world or reality utterly inexplicable (and not just not understood by finite, fallible creatures such as we are)? Feser brings to bear a sobering counter-weight to those inclined towards the brute fact approach:
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2014/10/della-rocca-on-psr.html [I]f PSR were false, we could have no reason to trust the deliverances of our cognitive faculties, including any grounds we might have for doubting or denying PSR; and an argument to the effect that a critic of PSR cannot coherently accept even the scientific explanations he does accept, unless he acknowledges that there are no brute facts and thus that PSR is true. Della Rocca’s argument bears a family resemblance to this second line of argument. Della Rocca notes, first, that even among philosophers who reject PSR, philosophical theses are often defended by recourse to what he calls “explicability arguments.” An explicability argument (I’ll use the abbreviation EA from here on out) is an argument to the effect that we have grounds for denying that a certain state of affairs obtains if it would be inexplicable or a “brute fact.” Della Rocca offers a number of examples of this strategy. When physicalist philosophers of mind defend some reductionist account of consciousness on the grounds that consciousness would (they say) otherwise be inexplicable, they are deploying an EA. When early modern advocates of the “mechanical philosophy” rejected (their caricature of) the Aristotelian notion of substantial forms, they did so on the grounds that the notion was insufficiently explanatory. When philosophers employ inductive reasoning they are essentially rejecting the claim that the future will not be relevantly like the past nor the unobserved like the observed, on the grounds that this would make future and otherwise unobserved phenomena inexplicable. And so forth. (Della Rocca cites several other specific examples from contemporary philosophy -- in discussions about the metaphysics of dispositions, personal identity, causation, and modality -- wherein EAs are deployed.) Now, Della Rocca allows that to appeal to an EA does not by itself commit one to PSR. But suppose we apply the EA approach to the question of why things exist. Whatever we end up thinking the correct answer to this question is -- it doesn’t matter for purposes of Della Rocca’s argument -- if we deploy an EA in defense of it we will implicitly be committing ourselves to PSR, he says, because PSR just is the claim that the existence of anything must have an explanation. In responding to these different examples of EAs, one could, says Della Rocca, take one of three options: (1) Hold that some EAs are legitimate kinds of argument, while others -- in particular, any EA for some claim about why things exist at all -- are not legitimate. (2) Hold that no EA for any conclusion is legitimate. (3) Hold that all EAs, including any EA for a claim about the sheer existence of things, are legitimate kinds of argument. Now, the critic of PSR cannot take option (3), because that would, in effect, be to accept PSR. Nor could any critic of PSR who applies EAs in defense of other claims -- and the EA approach is, as Della Rocca notes, a standard move in contemporary philosophy (and indeed, in science) -- take option (2). So that leaves (1). The trouble, though, is that there doesn’t seem to be any non-question-begging way of defending option (1). For why should we believe that EAs are legitimate in other cases, but not when giving some account of the sheer existence of things? It seems arbitrary to allow the one sort of EA but not the other sort. The critic of PSR cannot respond by saying that it is just a brute fact that some kinds of EAs are legitimate and others are not, because this would beg the question against PSR, which denies that there are any brute facts. Nor would it do for the critic to say that it is just intuitively plausible to hold that EAs are illegitimate in the case of explaining the sheer existence of things, since Della Rocca’s point is that the critic’s acceptance of EAs in other domains casts doubt on the reliability of this particular intuition. Hence an appeal to intuition would also beg the question. So, Della Rocca’s argument is that there seems no cogent way to accept EAs at all without accepting PSR. The implication seems to be that we can have no good reason to think anything is explicable unless we also admit that everything is. Naturally, I agree with this. Indeed, I think Della Rocca, if anything, concedes too much to the critic of PSR. In particular, he allows that while it would be “extremely problematic” for someone to bite the bullet and take option (2), it may not be “logically incoherent” to do so. But this doesn’t seem correct to me. Even if the critic of PSR decides to reject the various specific examples of EAs cited by Della Rocca -- EAs concerning various claims about consciousness, modality, personal identity, etc. -- the critic will still make use of various patterns of reasoning he considers formally valid or inductively strong, will reject patterns of reasoning he considers fallacious, etc. And he will do so precisely because these principles of logic embody standards of intelligibility or explanatory adequacy. To be sure, it is a commonplace in logic that not all explanations are arguments, and it is also sometimes claimed (less plausibly, I think) that not all arguments are explanations. However, certainly many arguments are explanations. What Aristotelians call “explanatory demonstrations” (e.g. a syllogism like All rational animals are capable of language, all men are rational animals, so all men are capable of language) are explanations. Arguments to the best explanation are explanations, and as Della Rocca notes, inductive reasoning in general seems to presuppose that things have explanations. So, to give up EAs of any sort (option (2)) would seem to be to give up the very practice of argumentation itself, or at least much of it. Needless to say, it is hard to see how that could fail to be logically incoherent, at least if one tries to defend one’s rejection of PSR with arguments. Hence, to accept the general practice of giving arguments while nevertheless rejecting EAs of the specific sorts Della Rocca gives as examples would really be to take Della Rocca’s option (1) rather than option (2) . . .
On balance, I suggest that it is reasonable on seeing an actual or candidate being A, to inquire why it is, or may be or may not be or is impossible to be etc. We may hope to find a good answer, not always a causal one, as some entities are necessary beings. In the case of a world-root being, the challenge is, that a world is and cannot plausibly come from utter non-being. So, on best explanation, there is a necessary being world root. Such a being exists necessarily (in the ontological sense), and is in a relevant sense its own explanation, given the going concern world with rational creatures making the inquiry. But of course, that is worlds apart from there being a perfect, complete explanation that we grasp just now, with utter certainty beyond question of error. KFkairosfocus
July 16, 2019
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BB, the prediction is being borne out. KF PS: I will not have this thread dragged down into the sewer, kindly take notice. There is a serious and central issue on the table. One I declared intent to take up yesterday morning and took up across today.kairosfocus
July 15, 2019
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BB@.378
KF@375, it is interesting that you are dissembling on my question, which has nothing to do with the morality of sexuality. It was about whether a homosexual who prefers to keep his sexual attraction to himself is obliged to tell the truth when asked about it for employment.
KF@385,386,387,388,392,394,396 and 398.
BB, The number of times you have tried to drag discussion threads through the sewer itself is telling. [plus a few thousand other wirds]
Anywhere in that massive deluge of verbiage, was there something resembling a “yes” or “no” to my question?Brother Brian
July 15, 2019
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PS: On so-called brute facts, Wiki is inadvertently illuminating:
In contemporary philosophy, a brute fact is a fact that has no explanation.[1] More narrowly, brute facts may instead be defined as those facts which cannot be explained (as opposed to simply having no explanation).[2] To reject the existence of brute facts is to think that everything can be explained. ("Everything can be explained" is sometimes called the principle of sufficient reason). There are two ways to explain something: say what "brought it about", or describe it at a more "fundamental" level.[citation needed] For example, a cat displayed on a computer screen can be explained, more "fundamentally", as there being certain voltages in bits of metal in the screen, which in turn can be explained, more "fundamentally", as certain subatomic particles moving in a certain manner. If one were to keep explaining the world in this way and reach a point at which no more "deeper" explanations can be given, then they would have found some facts which are brute or inexplicable, in the sense that we cannot give them an ontological explanation[citation needed]. As it might be put, there may exist some things that just are. The same thing can be done with causal explanations. If nothing made the Big Bang expand at the velocity it did, then this is a brute fact in the sense that it lacks a causal explanation.
Of course, the root of this is the Agrippa trilemma, multiplied by failing to attend to differing kinds of explanation. Providing, there is a logic of being, there is no necessity that everything has a causal explanation, as some things are possible of being but not contingent. They are part of the framework for any world to exist. In that context, a particularly important case is not a "brute" but an ULTIMATE fact, the root of reality -- something which, in principle must and does exist as wellspring of all worlds. Non-being having no causal power were there ever only such, that would forever obtain. So, that a world is points to a world root, where circular cause is a disguised appeal to non-being -- not yet being -- acting as cause. So, we find ourselves with an ultimate, necessary being fact, and one that must be adequate to account for moral government. In that context, the idea that one has to go to the next fact please for further explanation, rather than find oneself facing the ultimate and self-existent as its own sufficient explanation seems to be a problem for many today. But that does not mean that one can just sweep it off the table, it is a live option.kairosfocus
July 15, 2019
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F/N: Feser on the often misunderstood cosmological argument. We only need to pause to point to the logic of being to correct the simplest misconception, that theists argue to an "exception" to the premise that everything has a cause. Take the very fact of how common this is, as an indictment of the educational poverty of our times. Now, Feser, clipping:
The cosmological argument in its historically most influential versions is not concerned to show that there is a cause of things which just happens not to have a cause. It is not interested in “brute facts” – if it were, then yes, positing the world as the ultimate brute fact might arguably be as defensible as taking God to be. On the contrary, the cosmological argument – again, at least as its most prominent defenders (Aristotle, Aquinas, Leibniz, et al.) present it – is concerned with trying to show that not everything can be a “brute fact.” What it seeks to show is that if there is to be an ultimate explanation of things, then there must be a cause of everything else which not only happens to exist, but which could not even in principle have failed to exist. And that is why it is said to be uncaused – not because it is an arbitrary exception to a general rule, not because it merely happens to be uncaused, but rather because it is not the sort of thing that can even in principle be said to have had a cause, precisely because it could not even in principle have failed to exist in the first place. And the argument doesn’t merely assume or stipulate that the first cause is like this; on the contrary, the whole point of the argument is to try to show that there must be something like this. Different versions of the cosmological argument approach this task in different ways. Aristotelian versions argue that change – the actualization of the potentials inherent in things – cannot in principle occur unless there is a cause that is “pure actuality,” and thus can actualize other things without itself having to be actualized. Neo-Platonic versions argue that composite things cannot in principle exist unless there is a cause of things that is absolutely unified or non-composite. Thomists not only defend the Aristotelian versions, but also argue that whatever has an essence or nature distinct from its existence – so that it must derive existence from something outside it – must ultimately be caused by something whose essence just is existence, and which qua existence or being itself need not derive its existence from another. Leibnizian versions argue that whatever does not have the sufficient reason for its existence in itself must ultimately derive its existence from something which does have within itself a sufficient reason for its existence, and which is in that sense necessary rather than contingent. And so forth. (Note that I am not defending or even stating the arguments here, but merely giving single sentence summaries of the general approach several versions of the arguments take.) So, to ask “What caused God?” really amounts to asking “What caused the thing that cannot in principle have had a cause?”, or “What actualized the potentials in that thing which is pure actuality and thus never had any potentials of any sort needing to be actualized in the first place?”, or “What imparted a sufficient reason for existence to that thing which has its sufficient reason for existence within itself and did not derive it from something else?” And none of these questions makes any sense. Of course, the atheist might say that he isn’t convinced that the cosmological argument succeeds in showing that there really is something that could not in principle have had a cause, or that is purely actual, or that has a sufficient reason for its existence within itself. He might even try to argue that there is some sort of hidden incoherence in these notions. But merely to ask “What caused God?” – as if the defender of the cosmological argument had overlooked the most obvious of objections – simply misses the whole point. A serious critic has to grapple with the details of the arguments. He cannot short-circuit them with a single smart-ass question. (If some anonymous doofus in a combox can think up such an objection, then you can be certain that Aristotle, Aquinas, Leibniz, et al. already thought of it too.)
Of course, there is much more there. For example:
7. The argument is not a “God of the gaps” argument. Since the point of the argument is precisely to explain (part of) what science itself must take for granted, it is not the sort of thing that could even in principle be overturned by scientific findings. For the same reason, it is not an attempt to plug some current “gap” in scientific knowledge. Nor is it, in its historically most influential versions anyway, a kind of “hypothesis” put forward as the “best explanation” of the “evidence.” It is rather an attempt at strict metaphysical demonstration. To be sure, like empirical science it begins with empirical claims, but they are empirical claims that are so extremely general that (as I have said) science itself cannot deny them without denying its own evidential and metaphysical presuppositions. And it proceeds from these premises, not by probabilistic theorizing, but via strict deductive reasoning. In this respect, to suggest (as Richard Dawkins does) that the cosmological argument fails to consider more “parsimonious” explanations than an uncaused cause is like saying that the Pythagorean theorem is merely a “theorem of the gaps” and that more “parsimonious” explanations of the “geometrical evidence” might be forthcoming. It simply misunderstands the nature of the reasoning involved. Of course, an atheist might reject the very possibility of such metaphysical demonstration. He might claim that there cannot be a kind of argument which, like mathematics, leads to necessary truths and yet which, like science, starts from empirical premises. But if so, he has to provide a separate argument for this assertion. Merely to insist that there cannot be such an argument simply begs the question against the cosmological argument. None of this entails that the cosmological argument is not open to potential criticism. The point is that the kind of criticism one might try to raise against it is simply not the kind that one might raise in the context of empirical science. It requires instead knowledge of metaphysics and philosophy more generally.
Or even:
8. Hume and Kant did not have the last word on the argument. Neither has anyone else. It is often claimed that Hume, or maybe Kant, essentially had the last word on the subject of the cosmological argument and that nothing significant has been or could be said in its defense since their time. I think that no philosopher who has made a special study of the argument would agree with this judgment, and again, that includes atheistic philosophers who ultimately reject the argument. For example, I don’t think anyone who has studied the issue would deny that Elizabeth Anscombe presented a serious objection to Hume’s claim that something could conceivably come into existence without a cause. Nor is Anscombe by any means the only philosopher to have criticized Hume on this issue. I’m not claiming that everyone would agree that the objections leveled by Anscombe and others are at the end of the day correct (though I think they are), only that they would agree that it is wrong to pretend that Hume somehow ended all serious debate on the issue. (Naturally, I discuss this issue in Aquinas.) To take another example, Hume’s objection that the cosmological argument commits a fallacy of composition is, as I have noted in an earlier post, also greatly overrated. For one thing, it assumes that the cosmological argument is concerned with explaining why the universe as a whole exists, and that is simply not true of all versions of the argument. Thomists often emphasize that the argument of Aquinas’s On Being and Essence requires only the premise that something or other exists – a stone, a tree, a book, your left shoe, whatever. The claim is that none of these things could exist even for an instant unless maintained in being by God. You don’t need to start the argument with any fancy premise about the universe as a whole; all you need is a premise to the effect that a stone exists, or a shoe, or what have you. (Again, see Aquinas for the full story.) Even versions of the argument that do begin with a premise about the universe as a whole are (in my view and that of many others) not really damaged by Hume’s objection, for reasons I explain in the post just linked to. In any event, I think that anyone who has studied the cosmological argument in any depth would agree that it is certainly seriously debatable whether Hume draws any blood here. In general, critics of the cosmological argument tend arbitrarily to hold it to a standard to which they do not hold other arguments. In other areas of philosophy, even the most problematic views are treated as worthy of continuing debate. The fact that there are all sorts of serious objections to materialist theories of the mind, or consequentialist views in ethics, or Rawlsian liberal views in political philosophy, does not lead anyone to suggest that these views shouldn’t be taken seriously. But the fact that someone somewhere raised such-and-such an objection to the cosmological argument is routinely treated as if this sufficed to establish that the argument has been decisively “refuted” and needn’t be paid any further attention. Jason Rosenhouse plays this game in his response to my recent post on Jerry Coyne. Writes Rosenhouse: Feser seems rather taken with [the cosmological argument], but there are many strong refutations to be found in the literature. Off the top of my head, I found Mackie's discussion in The Miracle of Theism and Robin Le Poidevin's discussion in Arguing for Atheism to be both cogent and accessible. Does Rosenhouse really think that we defenders of the cosmological argument aren’t familiar with Mackie and Le Poidevin? Presumably not. But then, what’s his point? That is to say, what point is he trying to make that doesn’t manifestly beg the question? After all, what would Rosenhouse think of the following “objection”: Rosenhouse seems rather taken with the materialist view of the mind, but there are many strong refutations to be found in the literature. Off the top of my head, I found Foster’s The Immaterial Self and the essays in Koons’ and Bealer’s The Waning of Materialism to be both cogent and accessible. Or, while we’re on the subject of what prominent mainstream atheist philosophers have said, what would he think of: Rosenhouse seems rather taken with Darwinism, but there are many strong refutations to be found in the literature. Off the top of my head, I found Fodor’s and Piatelli-Palmarini’s discussion in What Darwin Got Wrong and David Stove’s discussion in Darwinian Fairytales to be both cogent and accessible. Rosenhouse’s answer to both “objections” would, I imagine, be: “Since when did Foster, Koons, Bealer, Fodor, Piatelli-Palmarini, and Stove get the last word on these subjects?” And that would be a good answer. But no less good is the following answer to Rosenhouse: Since when did Mackie and Le Poidevin have the last word on the cosmological argument?
Food for onward thought. KFkairosfocus
July 15, 2019
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