Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Confessions of a Design Heretic

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Those of you who’ve followed my posts and comments will have picked up that my view of Intelligent Design is pretty complicated. On the one hand, I defend design inferences, even strong design inferences. I’m entirely comfortable with questioning Darwinism (if that view still has enough content to identify it as a clear position, anyway), and have a downright dismissive view of both naturalism (if that view… etc) and atheism. I regularly see the ID position butchered, mangled and misrepresented by its detractors, most of whom should and probably do know better.

On the flipside, I don’t think ID (or for that matter, no-ID) is science, even if I reason that if no-ID is science then so is ID. My personal leaning has always been towards theistic evolution, and I see evolution as yet another instance of design rather than something which runs in opposition to it – a view which I know some ID proponents share, but certainly not all. I think non-scientific arguments for and inferences to design have considerable power, and see little reason to elevate particular arguments simply because some insist they’re “scientific”.

Here’s another part of that flipside, and the subject of today’s post. One of the more prominent ID arguments hinges on the trichotomy of Chance, Necessity, and Design. The problem for me is that I question the very existence of Chance, and I see Necessity as subsumable under Design.

Let’s start with the more straightforward issue first: Necessity and design. I think a problem straightaway is that design presupposes necessity, at least in the form of law – and the type of law/necessity you have serves as a limiting factor on design. But more than that, law is implemented and used in our own designs – you need only look at how software is designed and created to see man-made law at work. Likewise, the nature of physical laws of our universe is itself an open question, a thing which has to be explained. It would be enough to point out the mere possibility of “design” as an explanation of these laws to kick some dirt on contrast of necessity and design. The fact that we have intelligent agents implementing laws – arguably comparable laws – in software, systems and designs should be enough to give additional pause.

So what about chance? Well, let’s try to nail down the appropriate definition of chance here: Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind. I actually think that’s pretty straightforward, but let’s note what this definition is not identical to: The claim that outcomes were, largely or in part, the result of natural or material forces. It’s entirely possible for intelligent agents to foresee, intend, and orchestrate these outcomes, whether via direct intervention or well in advance (“front-loading”). Nor is the claim identical to “events and outcomes that were the result of accumulations of (small or large) changes over time”. Once again, such outcomes are entirely compatible with their being foreseen, directed, and intended by a mind, both in advance or directly.

Now, I think this is what many people who play the ‘chance, necessity or design’ card typically mean when they oppose chance to design. (I’m sure other people could go with another definition – but for our purposes I think I’m giving a fair view.) The problem is that, if this is what is meant by chance, then it’s not obvious that “chance” really exists to begin with. That’s not to say someone can’t assume that it exists, or that they can’t mount some kind of argument for the existence of chance based on whatever presuppositions or standards. People can assume whatever they like, and they’re certainly capable of arguing for just about anything. But while design can be verified by first-person experience (just design something), and law is both subsumable under design as well as generally verifiable (just observe regularity), chance – the sort of chance I’m talking about – is, and may well forever remain, a metaphysical assumption. For all we know, and for all science can tell us, this thing may as well not exist.

I want to stress: To question chance in the manner I’m speaking is not to question, say.. the existence of a gaussian distribution, or of uncorrelated patterns, or of any particular patterns at all. A mind could foresee or even determine a gaussian distribution. A mind could create or intend an uncorrelated pattern. But the pattern itself won’t get you where you need to go – not without, ironically enough, a Design Filter. Even Dembski asserts that his DF is incapable of ruling out design in cases where his filter does not go off – but the inability to determine the presence or lack of design in these mundane cases places the very existence of chance in these cases open to question. This doesn’t mean that chance is demonstrated not to exist – only that its existence is one of mere logical possibility. And that ain’t much.

Oddly enough, I think the DF – or investigations similar to the DF – only heightens my point. At least some of the events and outcomes we see in our universe are the result of intention, of guidance, of mind. In principle, most – even all – events and outcomes we see in our universe could be the result of these things, and as our technology grows our own capabilities become more and more incredible on this front. With this in mind, at least from my point of view, I see little reason to treat ‘chance’ in the sense I wrote about in this entry as more than an interesting and remote logical possibility, an extrascientific posit that doesn’t have much to commend it.

Comments
Null: I have summarised my views here. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 10, 2011
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kf, I have — several times — pointed out that “chance” has a very reasonable, empirically testable and ..different definition than I'm talking about, and than what concerns me. Keep talking about it if you want. But it's going to have to be with someone other than myself, because I won't be changing my target here. As for the hypothetical physicist looking on and shaking his head in disapproval at me, I have choice words for him: "Help the engineers build a better toaster, or you're not earning your keep." Sorry, man. I lost my worry of what academics think of my views the moment I decided that 'Darwin says' was not a sufficient authority for me to bow to. I'm afraid it's extended beyond that: Someone who wants to convince me of something will need an argument that persuades, not an appeal to authority I don't accept.nullasalus
July 10, 2011
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Null (et al): I have -- several times -- pointed out that "chance" has a very reasonable, empirically testable and practically relevant sense commonly used in science and affairs that allows us to discuss it as a relevant possible or actually acting causal factor influencing aspects of the behaviour of commonly encountered phenomena, processes and objects. Indeed, it is foundational to statistical mechanics and several related areas of investigation and analysis, all of which are highly relevant to many of the contexts that are addressed by design theory. SB has given an apt summary definition in 108 above, on Monod: events and processes that produce a range of possible outcomes, each with some probability of occurring. In short, triggers of high, stochastically distributed contingencies, tracing to uncontrolled or uncontrollable to us factors and circumstances. In that is no necessary resort to "unknown to any mind or unknowable to any mind" or the like. So, frankly, to push that into the situation is to build a strawman target, and to engage in metaphysical loading. And, I assure you, a physicist looking on and thinking of something as simple as the Maxwell-Boltzmann statistics and how it relates to temperature or pressure or the relationships between pressure, volume and temperature for a body of gas, or its heat capacity, or how this relates to phenomena like diffusion, etc, would find that to be revealing, and in no good sense. And, that is before quantum questions are put on the table. So, sorry, I must refuse your proffered bargain. I have to deal with the phenomena, analyses and models that are the context in which, ~ 100 years ago, it was generally accepted in my home discipline, that chance is a reality that we have to live with once we address the molecular scale. Indeed, in the hands of Einstein, it is the concept of statistical fluctuations applied to explaining Brownian motion that finally were seen as providing concrete empirical demonstration of the reality of atoms and related stochastic phenomena. Someone, confronted with these phenomena, who then wants to argue that chance manifested in statistical patterns, is not real, to such a trained mind, will simply reveal ignorance of the discipline and the issues that physics has had to fight through to an understanding. After that, nothing that such a person has to say will be given any credit. For serious reasons. So, sorry if it cuts across metaphysical debates, but that historical and empirical foundation in my home discipline is decisive. We are not here debating whether or not The Old One -- Einstein's words -- plays with dice, but that in dealing with phenomena, we have a key cluster of phenomena that cry out for conceptual and analytical unification, and that that unification was and is found in the understanding of chance. The same, familiar from games of chance and the common die. In recent decades, the concept of the butterfly effect and sensitive dependence on initial conditions, or even intervening noise factors, has helped us understand chance's roots at macroscopic levels such as in the tossing of a die. While some may be fascinated by the dynamical system that says in effect per analysis and algebra, once initial conditions are so much, these laws apply and the outcome is set. But, that is NOT where the issue lies, the differential equations only say what happens after the initial conditions have been set up. It is in those initial conditions, with not only uncontrolled but uncontrollable to us elements and butterfly effect sensitivity, that we must look to for how under quite similar initial circumstances we see a considerable diversity of possible outcomes distributing themselves under a statistical pattern that we can analyse on random variable models. Similarly, as I have repeatedly pointed out, 50 years ago, statisticians had a trick of taking a phone book and using line number codes to generate random numbers. The lines are set by carefully planned choice. The names of people come by choice and inheritance, and so do the locations they live or work in. None of these is strictly random, but when they clash, the uncorrelated pattern that results gives a random distribution of digits that can be suitably sampled to harvest random numbers on the cheap. Chance is as good a term as any other for summarising this broad range of phenomena. Yes, chance does not act on its own, and we can point onwards to the dynamic process of accumulating change increment by increment to yield a final outcome when say a die is tossed, but all of that is reflective of the phenomenon that at each step there is a feed-in of subtle uncontrolled or uncontrollable factors leading to a scatter-pattern in outcomes. Those are chance factors that led to a clash of uncorrelated causal chains, yielding an outcome that exhibits statistical distributed-ness. At quantum level, the statistical distributed-ness seems to be fundamental, as can be seen from say radioactive decay. A population of a given nuclide seems to have each atom affected by a decay constant, and a population will decay according to a certain pattern, but we have no means of predicting which atom will decay when. Similar phenomena pervade the quantum world. So, here we see highly regular patterns that exhibit low contingency and can be characterised by mechanical necessity. We see others where there is a statistically distributed pattern of outcomes on uncontrollable or uncontrolled factors [just think about the tolerance that a manufacturer of mechanical or electronic systems has to deal with], which are amenable to analysis on random variable models. In yet other cases, we see how contingency is intelligently controlled. For an illustration of that contrast, consider the thought exercise 128-side dice strings. Such could be set based on chance processes and circumstances, or they could be set by choice. ASK: Which would be more credible as an explanation for the pattern of ascii characters comprising the first 73 characters of this post, why? The answer to this points to the heart of why design theory is valuable, and why it is legitimate to analyse outcomes on mechanical necessity, chance, and choice, based on tested, empirically reliable signs. Good day. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 10, 2011
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StephenB, I am not talking about God at all. Yeah, you're just saying that science can determine the lack of intention in this or that specific case. What's purposeful intention got to do with God, right? Look - I said that unless the statement is properly qualified, that it goes beyond science. To say 'well, there's no purposeful intention that we can detect - but of course, this only holds for certain agents. God, for example, could well have intended this result' is to qualify it. But in the quote you provided, there was no qualification by Meyer. He said that to say the roulette ball fell where it did by chance is to say it did not fall where it did as the result of intention, and that there was nothing about the roulette wheel's construction that made it stop there by necessity, and you suggested this as described was an entirely scientific determination. No qualifications. Maybe it's there in the book - if so, you didn't relate it to me. I have to go by what you quote. To say 'this was not the result of any intention' without qualification is to bring God into the conversation, and metaphysics, theology and philosophy along with it. Monod is not defining chance in those passages; he is making claims about its efficacy. A definition is about what something is, not about what it can do. Monad’s DEFINITION of chance is this: “events and processes that produce a range of possible outcomes, each with some probability of occurring.” That is a scientific definition completely absent of any metaphysical intrusion and is nothing like the passage that you alluded to @75, which is a wild, unjustified claim about what chance can do. Oh really? Let's review. I defined chance as this: Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind. You have, unless I've misunderstood you, copped to this definition being metaphysical, beyond science. You're saying that when Monod says what he says in 75, he's not making any claims about processes of nature being entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind? Alright. I'll play that game. Here's some more Monod quotes. the scientific attitude implies what I call the postulate of objectivity—that is to say, the fundamental postulate that there is no plan, that there is no intention in the universe. Now, this is basically incompatible with virtually all the religious or metaphysical systems whatever, all of which try to show that there is some sort of harmony between man and the universe and that man is a product—predictable if not indispensable—of the evolution of the universe. Scientific attitude. No plan, no intention in the universe. Not enough? Alright, let's try another. Armed with all the powers, enjoying all the wealth they owe to science, our societies are still trying to practice and to teach systems of values already destroyed at the roots by that very science. Man knows at last that he is alone in the indifferent immensity of the universe, whence which he has emerged by chance. His duty, like his fate, is written nowhere. Science, destroying systems of values. Science, showing that man emerged by chance from (and solely due to) an indifferent universe, with no duties. What's that, StephenB? *Still* not enough? Let's cut to the interview, with emphasis added. John: Could I go back to the question of creation? As I understand your point of view, and as it has been put to me, traditionally Christians have said, ‘God created the world at the beginning; God at a certain stage created life; God was at many points involved’ Then science came along and said, ‘No, we can give you a determinist account of how the universe was created, and how life came into being, entirely by scientific laws; we have no need of the hypothesis of a theistic creator.’ Now, am I right in thinking that you have taken that one stage further, and said, ‘No, it isn’t in fact a determinist system; it is even more difficult to imagine God because of the elements of randomness that occur at many points in this story, and in fact, that are the whole thread holding the story together? God couldn’t have decided in the beginning to use this mechanism to create man because he couldn’t have predicted at the beginning that man would emerge from it (emphasis added). Monod: You are quite right. The advent of man was completely unpredictable, until it actually happened. Go ahead. Tell me Monod was not passing off the view of chance I talk about, the view which you apparently admit is metaphysical and beyond science, as science. Do it, and I'll bring in Jerry Coyne arguing that science takes the position that evolution is not guided by God. I'll bring in Michael Ruse arguing that science shows that nature, certainly evolution, is not guided by God in any way - not even foreknown. But for God's sake, I shouldn't have to.nullasalus
July 10, 2011
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[The very same technique is used by academics to spot intentional plagiarism. It’s pure math and science—no metaphysics.] --nullasalus: “As I said, unless you properly qualify it, it is. Are you telling me that you can use “math and science” to determine, say, the presence or lack of God’s knowledge, guidance, or intervention in this or that situation? How about any other sufficiently advanced or powerful being?” I am not talking about God at all. In this portion, we are discussing your belief that there is metaphysical content in Stephen Meyer’s examples about dice and the roulette wheel. I don’t know why you are injecting God into that formulation, except to ask me my opinion from a metaphysical perspective, which I provided. If you hadn’t asked a metaphysical question, I would not have provided a metaphysical answer. Right now, though, I am asking about the alleged metaphysical content in Meyer’s example. As far as I can tell, there was no metaphysical content in it at all, and I can’t imagine why you would think otherwise. [-“From a theological perspective I would say that God foresaw it, yes. [Technically, God just “sees” it]. From a scientific perspective, I don’t see any metaphysical smuggling going on. In what way has science exceeded its limits in this case?] ---“It’s not science exceeding its limits per se. Science’s limits are science’s limits – the limits are exceeded by people, passing off non-science as science.” Well, your question had metaphysical content, [did God foresee the events in question] so I can only respond fairly by providing a metaphysical answer, which, in this case is, yes. Other than your metaphysical question, however, I still do not understand why you think Meyer’s example intrudes metaphysics into the discussion. ---[“You say that, from a theological perspective, God foresaw it]” Right. From a theological perspective, I think the answer is yes. Science, on the other hand, has nothing about it. ---“But if someone says, “No one foresaw it, period. Science shows us this.”, would you call that an abuse of science?” Sure. I would call that a metaphysical intrusion. [God may know which combination is coming, but He didn’t cause or pre-ordain the outcome]e. ---“Sure, but that’s a claim even you would admit is coming out of metaphysics, philosophy and theology. I think you’d agree with that much.” Of course, it’s coming out of metaphysics. It’s an answer to your metaphysical question about God’s foreknowledge and questions about God’s pre-ordination. ---“Let’s get to the heart of this.” OK. ---“Here’s how I defined chance: “Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind.” Would you grant that, with this definition of chance in play, saying that this or that event came to pass by chance (take your pick of the event, from a weather pattern to a roll of the dice) and that this is a scientific claim, or even a proven scientific fact, would be an instance of metaphysical smuggling?” I think that you have smuggled metaphysics into your definition by characterizing outcomes, at least in part, as events that God cannot foresee. Science cannot make presumptions like that. ---“I quoted Monod at 75. Monod seems to be making a similar claim for chance, and at the very least strongly implying that his is a purely scientific, rather than philosophical or metaphysical, view. Grant me for the sake of argument that he’s doing that. Are we seeing some smuggling?” Monod is not defining chance in those passages; he is making claims about its efficacy. A definition is about what something is, not about what it can do. Monad’s DEFINITION of chance is this: "events and processes that produce a range of possible outcomes, each with some probability of occurring." That is a scientific definition completely absent of any metaphysical intrusion and is nothing like the passage that you alluded to @75, which is a wild, unjustified claim about what chance can do.StephenB
July 9, 2011
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Please put whatever argument you are making into a clear format with premises and conclusions so my deficient reading comprehension skills can make sense of it. Monod's claims, and others (like Michael Ruse's, though I haven't gone into his particular version of it here) are philosophy and metaphysics, not science. Chance, as I described it, is not revealed by science, nor could it be. People who pretend it is, are smuggling in metaphysics and philosophy and (a)theology into the scientific realm, and calling the result science. No, just the presence, not the lack, with the obvious “designer not God” caveat. Great. So Monod's statements are non-scientific, but metaphysical and philosophical? If so, great - we're in agreement on that topic.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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Please put whatever argument you are making into a clear format with premises and conclusions so my deficient reading comprehension skills can make sense of it. As for 93, I will try to answer the questions you posed to SB:
Are you telling me that you can use “math and science” to determine, say, the presence or lack of God’s knowledge, guidance, or intervention in this or that situation?
No, just the presence, not the lack, with the obvious "designer not God" caveat. And only when sufficiently complete observational data and background scientific knowledge is available.
How about any other sufficiently advanced or powerful being?
It has nothing to do with being "advanced or powerful." It has everything to do with being possessed of the causal power of agency as distinct from chance and/or necessity. And yes beings other than God are possessed of agency. Humans for example.tragic mishap
July 9, 2011
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Tragic, How about we try this: Tell me where in the post I made the argument that ID isn't science. You point out that I said in the post that I don't think ID is science - I'll note that I also said that I think the ID position is regularly mangled by critics, that I'm dismissive of atheism and naturalism, and that I'm comfortable with questioning Darwinism. Why not suppose any of those were the thrust of the post? I did mention that I have problems with the 'chance, necessity or design' trichotomy. But I also mentioned that was only one ID argument, and nowhere did I say 'and thus we can see that ID is not science' or words to that effect. Nor did I say that the argument couldn't be salvaged or advanced in another way. In fact, I never said 'chance doesn't exist'. I said I'm skeptical of chance's existence (chance as I defined it), and that I don't think science is capable of determining that chance as I defined it exists. I also noted that Dembski's filter doesn't seem to require chance of that sort really existing anyway, since he says that all his filter does is detect design, not its lack. Just because I don't consider ID to be science doesn't mean that's the point of my post. Heck, I'm boggled as to why you think 93 entails me making that claim. Maybe you're thinking "Well I can imagine how nullasalus would use the conclusion there in an argument about how ID isn't science!" If so, interesting imagination - but that still doesn't make that the subject of the post.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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"2. ID is only useful in differentiating between chance and design." should probably be: "2. ID is only useful in differentiating between chance, law and design."tragic mishap
July 9, 2011
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I assure you I'm not pissed off. Kind of puzzled though, because 93 starts off with basically the thesis I assigned to you. Then the rest of the post is about whether chance causation counts as science, which is another demarcation argument. Let me swing again here: 1. No-ID is not science because chance doesn't exist and laws are reducible to design 2. No-ID and ID are exactly equivalent for exclusion or inclusion within science. Conclusion: ID is not science. Third swing: 1. Chance doesn't exist and laws are reducible to design. 2. ID is only useful in differentiating between chance and design. Conclusion: ID is not useful because only design exists.tragic mishap
July 9, 2011
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Tragic, I'd happily answer any questions you ask - but frankly you seem pretty pissed off and spoiling for a fight with me for some reason. Not sure why, and I don't care to speculate. Have a look at 93. I think the conversation I'm having with StephenB gets to the heart of the matter. Most everyone else in the thread seems to get what I was trying to say, even if there are disagreements.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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On the flipside, I don’t think ID (or for that matter, no-ID) is science, even if I reason that if no-ID is science then so is ID.
But you did say ID isn't science. That is enough to be a design heretic so you'll forgive me if I thought that was your point.tragic mishap
July 9, 2011
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Well you're right I don't understand your point then. :ptragic mishap
July 9, 2011
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tragic, I understand what you are saying. You are saying that ID is not scientific because there is no such thing as not-ID. I’ve heard it before. Swing and a miss. I'm claiming that no-ID is not science. I even said right in the OP that if no-ID is science, then ID is science upon the instant. I didn't develop that line of reasoning much, because questioning ID's scientific status wasn't my point. I was hoping you had something interesting when I saw this post, but in the end you hardly even stated your thesis as clearly as I just did. Nope, you didn't. Kind of a tragic mishap, that. ;)nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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I mean, you at least need a clear definition of science to say something is not scientific, right? Yet you don't believe there is a clear definition. So where does that leave us?tragic mishap
July 9, 2011
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I understand what you are saying. You are saying that ID is not scientific because there is no such thing as not-ID. I've heard it before. Trouble is, I don't think that line of reasoning is valid. I was hoping you had something interesting when I saw this post, but in the end you hardly even stated your thesis as clearly as I just did.tragic mishap
July 9, 2011
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Granted, if we could know [and God does know in advance] the exact force of the throw, the angle from which it comes, the way the ball lands on the roulette wheel [or the way the cubed dice hit the table], and all other physical factors, and the ways they influence one another, and all the combinations and permutations involved [that’s a lot to know] it would seem that only one outcome is possible per each exact combination of physical circumstances.
So the way that God knows what number will appear on the die or which slot the ball will fall into on the wheel, is that He somehow becomes aware of the all initial conditions and of all the intermediate conditions that will come into play and factors them all in and calculates the expected outcome, and having perfect knowledge of all relevant physical factors and perfect calculation he therefore figures out in advance what the result will be? How far in advance does he come to know the force of the throw, for example? Does he have to wait for it to take place? And how is it that he can know the force and not just know the remainder? Or does he also need to run a calculation to find out the the force?Mung
July 9, 2011
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tragic, The design inference is not affected if chance doesn’t exist. I'd agree. I pointed out how even Dembski says his filter doesn't show where there's no design, only where there is design. Which to me said that in principle, design could be all we've got, full stop. So it's as you say, at least as far as I've seen and read. I even said right from the start that I support design inferences, even strong ones. It's those non-design inferences, and how they're classified, that I'm kicking up some dirt about here.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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null, The design inference is not affected if chance doesn't exist. There is still an excellent reason to find a way to differentiate between events directly caused by law and events directly caused by agency. I myself am probably 50/50 on whether chance exists or not, but it doesn't matter.tragic mishap
July 9, 2011
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StephenB, The very same technique is used by academics to spot intentional plagiarism. It’s pure math and science—no metaphysics. As I said, unless you properly qualify it, it is. Are you telling me that you can use "math and science" to determine, say, the presence or lack of God's knowledge, guidance, or intervention in this or that situation? How about any other sufficiently advanced or powerful being? From a theological perspective I would say that God foresaw it, yes. [Technically, God just “sees” it]. From a scientific perspective, I don’t see any metaphysical smuggling going on. In what way has science exceeded its limits in this case? It's not science exceeding its limits per se. Science's limits are science's limits - the limits are exceeded by people, passing off non-science as science. You say that, from a theological perspective, God foresaw it. But if someone says, "No one foresaw it, period. Science shows us this.", would you call that an abuse of science? Of bringing (a)theological, philosophical and metaphysical claims in and passing said claims off as science? It's certainly conflicting with the theological perspective and claim. God may know which combination is coming, but He didn’t cause or pre-ordain the outcome. Sure, but that's a claim even you would admit is coming out of metaphysics, philosophy and theology. I think you'd agree with that much. Let's get to the heart of this. Again, I don’t understand how there is any metaphysical smuggling going on here. Here's how I defined chance: "Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind." Would you grant that, with this definition of chance in play, saying that this or that event came to pass by chance (take your pick of the event, from a weather pattern to a roll of the dice) and that this is a scientific claim, or even a proven scientific fact, would be an instance of metaphysical smuggling? I quoted Monod at 75. Monod seems to be making a similar claim for chance, and at the very least strongly implying that his is a purely scientific, rather than philosophical or metaphysical, view. Grant me for the sake of argument that he's doing that. Are we seeing some smuggling?nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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[Meyer: "To say that the roulette ball fell in the red 16 pocket by chance is also to say that the ball was NOT placed there intentionally and that there was nothing about the construction of the roulette wheel that forced the ball to land in the red 16 of NECESSITY]. --"Nullasalus: "And I’m saying that, unless that statement is qualified, it goes beyond science." I am not clear on why you think so. Remember, we are operating scientifically with a "null" hypothesis about purposeful intention. The very same technique is used by academics to spot intentional plagiarism. It’s pure math and science—no metaphysics. --"Was the ball landing in 16 not foreseen by any agent, full stop?" From a theological perspective I would say that God foresaw it, yes. [Technically, God just “sees” it]. From a scientific perspective, I don’t see any metaphysical smuggling going on. In what way has science exceeded its limits in this case? --"Not preordained, full stop?" I would say that it is not pre-ordained. Foreknowledge does not necessarily translate into pre-ordination or necessity. Recall my earlier example: God may know that the stock market is going to crash, but that doesn’t mean that He caused it or that the event was pre-ordained. Granted, if we could know [and God does know in advance] the exact force of the throw, the angle from which it comes, the way the ball lands on the roulette wheel [or the way the cubed dice hit the table], and all other physical factors, and the ways they influence one another, and all the combinations and permutations involved [that’s a lot to know] it would seem that only one outcome is possible per each exact combination of physical circumstances. HOWEVER, these causal factors [the almost infinite number of possible ways one can throw the dice] are, themselves, contingent. They will be different every time. God may know which combination is coming, but He didn’t cause or pre-ordain the outcome. Indeed, I think it would be virtually impossible for the thrower to make the dice behave exactly the same way twice. One might be able to throw two sevens in a row [or repeat sixteen on the roulette wheel] but the way the hand moves and the way the dice fall will be different every time. Hence, we get the contingency factor that is being talked about. My guess is that some of the scientists on this blog will disagree with me, insisting that the contingency factor occurs after the throw as the dice fall as they will. I say the contingency happens before and during the throw as the gambler executes one of the trillions of possible combinations of ways to toss the dice. Either way, the result is not pre-ordained, and the scientific hypotheses are in tact. Again, I don’t understand how there is any metaphysical smuggling going on here.StephenB
July 9, 2011
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kf, The problem is there is a well used, fairly standard pattern of use of “chance” etc in the relevant scientific disciplines, that does not require philosophical loading. And I've said, repeatedly, that there are various, qualified understandings of 'chance' that I have no dispute with. The philosophically loaded meaning is precisely the one I have my eye on here. "There are other definitions of chance" is not news to me. Nor is "there are better, more practical definitions of chance". Why then set up in effect a strawman definition? It's not a strawman. It's a definition actually used by some people, a definition that some people offer up as scientific. I've quoted Monod - I can quote Michael Ruse to the same effect. And I could pull in more examples if need be. Now, it's a definition of chance that you prefer to eschew, and it deals with questions that you don't want to engage. I keep saying, I respect that. But I'm not going to budge and talk about a different definition of chance simply because you or anyone else want to avoid philosophy. Definitely not when I think philosophy and metaphysics is rarely avoided or pushed aside, as opposed to assumed (often without warrant) or smuggled in as a scientific claim. I'll make you a deal: I won't try to make you talk about philosophy when you're talking about science, if you won't try to make me talk about science when I'm talking about philosophy. (I'm reminded of a conversation with a friend a couple months back, when I mentioned how much I enjoyed some cheap home-fermented wine. They complained that what I was making was mere hooch, and recommended me a 50 dollar bottle of wine. 'But I like hooch, and I don't care about fancy wine. It tastes the same or worse to me,' I replied. "I can teach you how to appreciate fine wine", they said. 'I'll make you a deal,' I replied. 'I won't try to make you appreciate hooch, if you don't try to make me appreciate fine wine.')nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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Ilion: if one is in a situation where there is an uncontrollable fine grained variable, contingent pattern in initial conditions that leads to significant scatter in outcomes under relvantly similar starting conditions, is it not reasonable to give a name to the trigger for that outcome, and to recognise it as a relevant cause, whether due to quantum processes or to the sort of thing that happens to a tumbling die? So, why not just call it by the conventional name for such, "chance"; recognising it as a relevant causal factor responsible for stochastically distributed contingent outcomes under similar starting conditions? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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Null: The problem is there is a well used, fairly standard pattern of use of "chance" etc in the relevant scientific disciplines, that does not require philosophical loading. Why then set up in effect a strawman definition? GEM of TKI PS: Ilion, pool tables are carefully set up indeed to be pretty neatly predictable and controllable to the expert practitioner (within the limits of a typical pool stroke). Dice are just the opposite. PPS: Did you notice that with even tack-driving target rifles at long enough ranges, there is normally a certain scatter in the point of impact, reflecting chance circumstances that are uncontrollable, even after major effort to get accuracy?kairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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KF @ 80: "I have already pointed out the problem that nonlinear diff eqn systems with amplification of slight differences, will show not determinism but indetrerminism in praxis." No, you are confusing the a map for the territory. You are conflating our ignorance of the complete causal-web of an event, and, more importantly, our inability to fully compute the deterministic result of that not-fully-known causal-web, with indeterminism. Unless one is speaking of 'freedom,' than any talk of 'indeterminism' as having causal ability is just another way to assert that 'randomness' causal ability.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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KF @ 80-84, My! That answers everything! Still, I can't help but wonder, how do pool-sharks, and ordinary people, for that matter, manage manage to play pool?Ilion
July 9, 2011
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Why, it’s almost as if science isn’t his real concern here. It’s that damn philosophical bog, the worldview, that he has his eyes on.
A major assertion of many traditional thinkers about evolution and mutation is that living cells cannot make specific, adaptive use of their natural genetic engineering capacities. They make this assertion to protect their view of evolution as the product of random, undirected genome changes. But their position is philosophical, not scientific, nor is it based on empirical observations. - James A. Shapiro
Mung
July 9, 2011
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kf, Remember, my background is physics. In physics, a LOT of things are analysed in terms of chance more or less as I have summarised it. Fantastic. But here's the thing: I already have defined chance as I intended. Coming up to me and saying 'But if you change the definition of chance you're using...' means 'But if you talk about something completely other than what you were talking about...' You may as well be telling me "But if we define Chance as that card you can pull if you land on the right square in Monopoly..." There are reasons I bothered to define what sense of 'chance' the way I did at in the OP. First, because there are qualified senses of chance that are non-controversial to me, and which I don't dispute. Second, because the sense I use 'chance' in is relevant and advanced by some people, like Monod, and passed off as a scientific fact rather than the metaphysics, philosophy and base assumption that it is. You may want to avoid philosophical log-jams. I respect that. But from my point of view those log-jams are where a lot of the action is, and clearing that up - even so much as pointing out where the philosophy ends and science begins in those contexts - leads to an important payoff. So that's where I throw my focus at times, without apology.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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P4S: Or, more simply, can you ballistically aim and target a die like you aim a rifle?kairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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PPPS: Show us a way that you can under reasonable conditions force a fair die to produce controlled, predictable outcomes comparable in reliability to dropping the die will, acceleration downward at g.kairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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