Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Confessions of a Design Heretic

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Those of you who’ve followed my posts and comments will have picked up that my view of Intelligent Design is pretty complicated. On the one hand, I defend design inferences, even strong design inferences. I’m entirely comfortable with questioning Darwinism (if that view still has enough content to identify it as a clear position, anyway), and have a downright dismissive view of both naturalism (if that view… etc) and atheism. I regularly see the ID position butchered, mangled and misrepresented by its detractors, most of whom should and probably do know better.

On the flipside, I don’t think ID (or for that matter, no-ID) is science, even if I reason that if no-ID is science then so is ID. My personal leaning has always been towards theistic evolution, and I see evolution as yet another instance of design rather than something which runs in opposition to it – a view which I know some ID proponents share, but certainly not all. I think non-scientific arguments for and inferences to design have considerable power, and see little reason to elevate particular arguments simply because some insist they’re “scientific”.

Here’s another part of that flipside, and the subject of today’s post. One of the more prominent ID arguments hinges on the trichotomy of Chance, Necessity, and Design. The problem for me is that I question the very existence of Chance, and I see Necessity as subsumable under Design.

Let’s start with the more straightforward issue first: Necessity and design. I think a problem straightaway is that design presupposes necessity, at least in the form of law – and the type of law/necessity you have serves as a limiting factor on design. But more than that, law is implemented and used in our own designs – you need only look at how software is designed and created to see man-made law at work. Likewise, the nature of physical laws of our universe is itself an open question, a thing which has to be explained. It would be enough to point out the mere possibility of “design” as an explanation of these laws to kick some dirt on contrast of necessity and design. The fact that we have intelligent agents implementing laws – arguably comparable laws – in software, systems and designs should be enough to give additional pause.

So what about chance? Well, let’s try to nail down the appropriate definition of chance here: Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind. I actually think that’s pretty straightforward, but let’s note what this definition is not identical to: The claim that outcomes were, largely or in part, the result of natural or material forces. It’s entirely possible for intelligent agents to foresee, intend, and orchestrate these outcomes, whether via direct intervention or well in advance (“front-loading”). Nor is the claim identical to “events and outcomes that were the result of accumulations of (small or large) changes over time”. Once again, such outcomes are entirely compatible with their being foreseen, directed, and intended by a mind, both in advance or directly.

Now, I think this is what many people who play the ‘chance, necessity or design’ card typically mean when they oppose chance to design. (I’m sure other people could go with another definition – but for our purposes I think I’m giving a fair view.) The problem is that, if this is what is meant by chance, then it’s not obvious that “chance” really exists to begin with. That’s not to say someone can’t assume that it exists, or that they can’t mount some kind of argument for the existence of chance based on whatever presuppositions or standards. People can assume whatever they like, and they’re certainly capable of arguing for just about anything. But while design can be verified by first-person experience (just design something), and law is both subsumable under design as well as generally verifiable (just observe regularity), chance – the sort of chance I’m talking about – is, and may well forever remain, a metaphysical assumption. For all we know, and for all science can tell us, this thing may as well not exist.

I want to stress: To question chance in the manner I’m speaking is not to question, say.. the existence of a gaussian distribution, or of uncorrelated patterns, or of any particular patterns at all. A mind could foresee or even determine a gaussian distribution. A mind could create or intend an uncorrelated pattern. But the pattern itself won’t get you where you need to go – not without, ironically enough, a Design Filter. Even Dembski asserts that his DF is incapable of ruling out design in cases where his filter does not go off – but the inability to determine the presence or lack of design in these mundane cases places the very existence of chance in these cases open to question. This doesn’t mean that chance is demonstrated not to exist – only that its existence is one of mere logical possibility. And that ain’t much.

Oddly enough, I think the DF – or investigations similar to the DF – only heightens my point. At least some of the events and outcomes we see in our universe are the result of intention, of guidance, of mind. In principle, most – even all – events and outcomes we see in our universe could be the result of these things, and as our technology grows our own capabilities become more and more incredible on this front. With this in mind, at least from my point of view, I see little reason to treat ‘chance’ in the sense I wrote about in this entry as more than an interesting and remote logical possibility, an extrascientific posit that doesn’t have much to commend it.

Comments
PPS: Solutions of relevant molecular species will also normally be stochastically controlled. That is why the ribosome uses a control tape, mRNA, to chain proteins.kairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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PS: Dice, thanks to edges corners etc, are nonlinear dynamical systems of the relevant kind.kairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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Ilion: I have already pointed out the problem that nonlinear diff eqn systems with amplification of slight differences, will show not determinism but indetrerminism in praxis. That is the outcomes will be dominated by uncontrollably small differences in initial conditions, i.e the accident -- note here a synonym for chance -- of the particular initial conditions not the fact that we have an equation of apparently deterministic form. Hence the significance of the butterfly effect. BTW, one way to make credibly genuine and flat random random numbers is to use a Zener diode to initialise a pseudo random number generator. The PRBS ckt is deterministic but the variability of initial conditions on quantum driven zener noise, will give a flat random output. Wiki:
In computing, a hardware random number generator is an apparatus that generates random numbers from a physical process. Such devices are often based on microscopic phenomena that generate a low-level, statistically random "noise" signal, such as thermal noise or the photoelectric effect or other quantum phenomena. These processes are, in theory, completely unpredictable, and the theory's assertions of unpredictability are subject to experimental test. A quantum-based hardware random number generator typically consists of a transducer to convert some aspect of the physical phenomena to an electrical signal, an amplifier and other electronic circuitry to bring the output of the transducer into the macroscopic realm, and some type of analog to digital converter to convert the output into a digital number, often a simple binary digit 0 or 1. By repeatedly sampling the randomly varying signal, a series of random numbers is obtained. Hardware random number generators differ from pseudo-random number generators (PRNGs), which are commonly used in software. These PRNGs use a deterministic algorithm to produce numerical sequences. Although these pseudo-random sequences pass statistical pattern tests for randomness, by knowing the algorithm and the conditions used to initialize it, called the "seed", the output can be predicted. While this can quickly generate large quantities of pseudorandom data, it is vulnerable to cryptanalysis of the algorithm. Cryptographic PRNGs resist determining the seed from their output, but still require a small amount of high-quality random data for the seed. Hardware RNGs can generate the seed, or they may be used directly for the random data to protect against potential vulnerabilities in a PRNG algorithm . . .
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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KF @ 73:Imagine a 128-side fair die, with the ascii characters on it.” KF, there you go again (as a great man once said): quite missing the point. It doesn’t matter how many sides you wish to add to that die, and it doesn’t even matter whether it is a fair die. Making statements about hypothetical rolls of the die -- modeling dice rolls -- does not cause the result of any actual roll of the die. That the die is rolled is a contingent fact, it is (ultimately, if not immediately) the act of a free agent. But the result of the actual die roll is in no wise ‘random,’ it is utterly deterministic; the result is fully determined by the mechanicistic necessity of the working-out of the initial conditions at the instant of the roll. The result of this roll of the die, or of that spin of the roulette wheel, at the instant it is rolled or spun, is already fully determined; that we lack the tools and knowledge to compute which of the (formerly) hypothetical results has the probability of 1.0 doesn’t alter the case. Nothing - except an agent interfering with the working-out of this mechanical necessity - can inject any degree of indeterminism into the working-out of those initial conditions to produce exactly the result which was fully determined by the initial conditions.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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Null: Remember, my background is physics. In physics, a LOT of things are analysed in terms of chance more or less as I have summarised it. Starting with temperature and pressure, diffusion, Brownian motion [which helped establish the reality of atoms, in the hands of Einstein], Black Body radiation, entropy, quantum processes, radioactivity, and more. There was and is no inescapable philosophical loading in that approach. My 128 side tray of dice example just linked should help clarify. The Old One may not play dice, and maybe he does too at molecular level; but we sure do, and it sure is relevant as an alternative view on explaining highly contingent outcomes. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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I have further commented on the thought exercise herekairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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StephenB, To say that the roulette ball fell in the red 16 pocket by chance is also to say tha the ball was NOT placed there intentionally and that there was nothing about the construction of the roulette wheel that forced the ball to land in the red 16 of NECESSITY. And I'm saying that, unless that statement is qualified, it goes beyond science. Was the ball landing in 16 not foreseen by any agent, full stop? Not preordained, full stop? Science is infirm to make that determination. Now, can science be used to investigate known factors for bias - a slanted roulette table? Analyze a pattern and question whether or not said pattern was unusual according to a given standard? Sure. Can we use science to determine whether a mundane agent - say, the guy at the roulette table - was influencing the outcomes in any way? To a degree, with some imperfections, sure. But I'm more than happy to grant those cases, because they don't affect my point. To talk about chance in the way I have - and in the way Monod did, as quoted - is a whole other matter. And at that point, we're off and into philosophy land, metaphysics land. Science as science becomes useless there, because science has not, and really cannot, demonstrate the existence of 'chance' as defined. It may well not even exist for all we know. And it should not be granted unreflectively, etc. Particularly in the case of evolution, a situation where we mundane humans have shown a growing knack for being able to use, exploit, and alter such processes. And that's just to begin with.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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kf, The definition you use is unfortunately philosophically loaded. Of course it is! It's why I'm taking aim at it. News has conveniently provided this quote from Monod: We call these events [mutations] accidental; we say they are random occurrences. And since they constitute the only possible source of modification in the genetic text, itself the sole repository of the organism’s hereditary structures, it necessarily follows that chance alone is at the source of every innovation, of all creation in the biosphere. Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution: this central concept of modern biology is no longer one among other possible or even conceivable hypotheses. It is today the sole conceivable hypothesis, the only one that squares with observed and tested fact. And nothing warrants the supposition – or the hope – that on this score our position is likely ever to be revised Funny how Monod is diving for the 'philosophical log-jam', ain't it? Why did Monod make a move like this? Why did he define 'chance' this way? Wasn't he a scientist? Why, it's almost as if science isn't his real concern here. It's that damn philosophical bog, the worldview, that he has his eyes on. He wasn't alone then, and he's not alone now. Philosophy, metaphysics, and worldview were never put aside in favor of science in any major way, kf. They simply get smuggled in for many people who care about these issues. Because, if we separate the science from the philosophy, we're left with a science that won't do what many people want it to do.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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---nullasalus: "As I’ve said before, for all science can tell us, ‘chance’ in the sense I’ve defined it may not exist in our universe." Let's stretch out just a bit on that one. Again from Meyer: (Keep in mind his context which, this time, is "chance as negation.)" "Imagine that a statistitian is trying to determine whether a coin is fair by observing the distribution of heads and tails that result from flipping it. The 'chance' hypothesis in this case is that the coin is fair. The alternative hypothesis is that the coin is biased. If the distribution of heads and tails comes up roughly even, the statistition will conclude that the coin is fair and elect the 'chance hypothesis.' In saying this, the statistician is not saying that 'chance' caused the 50-50 distribution or even that she knows what caused any particular outcome. Instead, the affirmation of the chance hypothesis mainly serves to negate the alternative hypothesis of bias (in this case, in this case a loaded coin produced by design). The essentially negative character of the chance hypothesis is suggested by its other common name, the "null" hypothesis (i.e. the hypothesis to be nullified or refuted by alternative hypotheses of design or law-like necessity)." Such negationss, implicit or explicit, are part of what give substantive chance hypotheses content. To say that the roulette ball fell in the red 16 pocket by chance is also to say tha the ball was NOT placed there intentionally and that there was nothing about the construction of the roulette wheel that forced the ball to land in the red 16 of NECESSITY. ..."Vacuous appeals to chance neither affirm a cause nor negate one. But substantive appeals to chance specify the operation of a relevant outcome-producing process, and they also implicitly or explicity negate (or nullify) other possible types of hypotheses." What do you think?StephenB
July 9, 2011
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PS: With this in mind, the view that we can see processes as tracing to mechanical necessity yielding low contingency or reliable natural regularities under given circumstances, contrasting with highly contingent outcomes is reasonable. Such highly contingent outcomes in turn trace reliably to choice and/or chance; each of which has charactersitic signs, e.g. we may discern the difference because designers routinely create events E from narrow and unrepresentative zones T in very large configuration spaces of possibilities W. Such are the circumstances that once we have FSCI to deal with, a search process on the gamut of the solar system or the observable cosmos is maximally unlikely to hit on T in W. Imagine a 128-side fair die, with the ascii characters on it. Would transforming he cosmos into such dice and tables, then tossing them repeatedly a number of times equal to the length of this post, for 13.7 BY be more than negligibly different from zero likelihood, to hit on a string like this post? And yet, in a few moments, I have typed this out, using the power of intelligent choice to direct my fingers to play across a keyboard then hit send. Thus it is indeed reasonable to reflect on the difference between necessity, chance and choice in causal processes, and to study empirically testable and indeed reliable distinguishing signs. Which is thus clearly reasonable as a scientific project; one that has not been without some measure of success, albeit there is plainly also some degree of philosophically and ideologically tinged controversy.kairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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Null: The definition you use is unfortunately philosophically loaded. I think even so humble a source as wiki on chance does a better job:
The word chance in philosophy means a complex of causes that produces an indeterministic process with indeterministic effects, therefore not-necessary, not-deterministic. The ancient concept of chance as not existences of causes is nowadays obsolete and yet not able to be proposed. In the 20th century subatomic physics, cosmology and biology studied and pointed out many case of indeterministic process concerning the birth of universe, its phenomenology, subatomic particles behaviour, genetic mutation and so on . . .
Wiki on randomness is also closely related:
The fields of mathematics, probability, and statistics use formal definitions of randomness. In mathematics, a random variable is a way to assign a value to each possible outcome of an event. In probability and statistics, a random process is a repeating process whose outcomes follow no describable deterministic pattern, but follow a probability distribution, such that the relative probability of the occurrence of each outcome can be approximated or calculated. For example, the rolling of a fair six-sided die in neutral conditions may be said to produce random results, because one cannot know, before a roll, what number will show up. However, the probability of rolling any one of the six rollable numbers can be calculated.
Stochastically dominated contingency linked to explanatory random variable models and/or clashing uncorrelated chains of circumstances that amplify uncontrollably small variability in underlying processes, and playing a role in the dynamics of a relevant process or phenomenon seems to best capture what I am discussing, which is freighted with issues tied to kinetic theory, statistical mechanics, chemical reaction kinetics, diffusion, properties of semiconductor devices and junctions, thermally linked behaviour, etc. Including the roots of the classic normal distribution of errors of observation, etc. That approach is not loaded with questions of what we may know, what God may know etc. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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Sorry, Mung, I agree I was confusing (I guess I may have misunderstood Ilion too). What I meant was that I think that positing "Chance" as a "cause" of something is meaningless. I would agree that in that case, all we mean by Chance is causes we don't actually know about. For instance, we might say that I was knocked over by a bus by Chance. That really just means that there were lots and lots of unknown factors that together caused me to be knocked over by a bus. Or we might say that i was knocked over by a bus because someone pushed me. In that case we might say that the cause was the enactment of Newton's laws of motion, in other words "Necessity". Or we might even invoke Design - I was pushed by someone who intended me harm. Both those explanation (Necessity and Design) are real explanations. Chance, however, is not - it's just the statement that there were lots of causes, we just don't know what they were. So in that sense I (think I) agree with Ilion. Chance, or "random" often simply means "unmodeled". So we have randomly distributed residuals when we fit a statistical model to data, model, representing unmodeled causal factors. However, the word "stochastic", although sometimes used interchangeably with "random" usually denotes causal factors that are reliably drawn from a known probability distribution, and therefore can be predicted with high precision in bulk, if not with high precision with regard to individual events. The poster child would be radioactive decay, or, indeed, any quantum effect. But we can also use it to describe systems that are highly predictable at, say population level, but almost completely unpredictable at individual level. Mutations rates might be an example, or differential reproduction (aka natural selection). These are stochastic systems, I would say, and one tool for modeling them is stochastic differential mutations. Or simple statistical tests, for that matter.Elizabeth Liddle
July 9, 2011
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[So I am not lying when I point out that he made no such distinction until I raised it.] ---Mung:“… the same distinction which you failed to recognize until prompted to do so. I made the distinction for the first time. I could hardly have failed to recognize that which I initiated. Get over it.StephenB
July 9, 2011
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Mung @ 60: "ok, sure, design can’t take place without necessity. But design also cannot take place without contingency. ... Is there something that intelligent causes bring to the table that cannot be caused by mechanical necessity?" Contingency; freedom. If atheism is the truth about the nature of reality, then the *only* causal factor that can possibly exist is 'mechanical necessity.' Thus, if his worldview committments were actually true, then Gould was spouting non-sense when he said, paraphrasing: "if the tape [history of "life"] could be replayed, the end-result would be entirely different." If atheism is the truth about the nature of reality, then *everything* is the result of the inevitable working-out of the "initial conditions," which are limited to the matter which existed and the "rules" of interplay between particles of matter -- just as the end-result of any specific execution of a computer program is the inevitable working-out of its operations upon some specific set of data. 'Mechanical necessity' is the only item in the atheistic/materialistic explanatory toolkit. But, it's clearly not adequate to explain all things, so they reach for 'randomness,' imagining that they can explain all else by positing "random causes." As Nullasalus says in post #55 "By eschewing philosophy for ‘science’, you haven’t avoided a log-jam – you’ve just picked another log-jam. ... And if you’re doing it at the cost of letting your critics get away with passing off their metaphysics as science, all I’ll say is this: You’ve made a rotten deal, and should reconsider it." Mung @ 60: "But I don’t understand why necessity is any sort of a problem for the ID argument." Where did you get that? I don't recall Nullasalus saying anything that ought to be understood that way.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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StephenB, Do you mean undirected, unintended, and entirely unforeseen by any mind, including the Divine mind? For my part, I could agree that the Divine mind did not direct or intend a throw of the dice, but I could not subscribe to the proposition that He did not foresee the result even before it happened. For a Christian philosopher, it seems to me the God’s omniscience should be a non-negotiable starting point. I'd agree with you about the non-negotiable. And that definition of 'chance' is full stop: No one means no one, not God or anyone else. My reply is that science is incapable of making that determination for God, gods, others, or nobody. As I've said before, for all science can tell us, 'chance' in the sense I've defined it may not exist in our universe.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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Mung, But I don’t understand why necessity is any sort of a problem for the ID argument. I think I made a mistake in titling my post. It's accurate insofar as I reject the 'chance, necessity or design' trichotomy, but it's inaccurate in that it suggests I'm taking aim at ID arguments here, or saying ID arguments don't work. That's not really my goal. My point was simply that 'necessity' doesn't seem to be in the running against 'design' - it's another form of it. I suppose the only 'difficulty for design' here is that someone who compares design and necessity is in my view making a mistake - not because their design claims are undermined, but because they're not filing as much as they ought to under 'design' or 'possibly designed'. StephenB, Yes, I think I do. We can’t afford to establish a non-overlapping magisterial demarcation between philosophy and science as if to ignore the fact that truth must be a single unity. I take that to be your point and I agree. That is why, unlike some who might want to limit the discussion to scientific models, I think the big picture matters big time. That's one way of putting it. Mostly, I'm pointing out where I think a lot of metaphysical and philosophical smuggling is going on (with the results being passed off as 'science') and saying, no, let's put an end to this and recognize it for what it is. Scientists have no way to determine various things - the ultimate nature of physical laws, for one - and whether or not what we see in nature is or is not designed or chance (as I have defined it) is part of that list.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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Elizabeth, you're really confusing me. Ilion: There is no such thing as a “random system.” Elizabeth: There are however such things as stochastic systems. Ilion: The phrase “stochastic system” is just another way of saying “random system” … thus, it is just another way of saying “here is a non-system which I am going to pretend is a system”. [The following is my own characterization of what I think was said.] Elizabeth: But I mean by a stochastic system one that can be modeled by a stochastic differential equation. [As if that's unlike a random system, I guess.]
A stochastic differential equation (SDE) is a differential equation in which one or more of the terms is a stochastic process, thus resulting in a solution which is itself a stochastic process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_differential_equation
In probability theory, a stochastic process, or sometimes random process, is the counterpart to a deterministic process (or deterministic system). Instead of dealing with only one possible reality of how the process might evolve under time (as is the case, for example, for solutions of an ordinary differential equation), in a stochastic or random process there is some indeterminacy in its future evolution described by probability distributions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_process Elizabeth, are you disagreeing with Ilion by agreeing with him, or are you agreeing with by disagreeing with him? I'm confused. Ok, I think it's time for me to go over to the other thread where we are dismantling Ilion's house looking for the information in it, or trying to figure out where the information went after it [his house] loses it's form. FUN!Mung
July 9, 2011
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--Nullasalus: "Remember, this is what I’m targeting in my definition of ‘chance’: Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind." Do you mean undirected, unintended, and entirely unforeseen by any mind, including the Divine mind? For my part, I could agree that the Divine mind did not direct or intend a throw of the dice, but I could not subscribe to the proposition that He did not foresee the result even before it happened. For a Christian philosopher, it seems to me the God's omniscience should be a non-negotiable starting point.StephenB
July 9, 2011
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StephenB, Instead, they usually mean that the event in question occurred because of a combination of factors so complex that it would have been impossible to determine the exact ones responsible for what happened or to have predicted it. That would back up Ilion's claim that 'chance' is a statement of ignorance. The fact that 'or to have predicted it' is in there would tend to back up my claim as well: How do they know who could or could not have predicted those outcomes? How do they know what was or wasn't foreseen? A guess, a hunch or a metaphysical speculation does not become something more than a guess, hunch or metaphysical speculation merely because a scientist is doing it. When scientists attribute an event to chance, they also mean there is no good reason to think the event happened either by design And what are their standards for determining design? It had better not be "Well, because it was a result of evolution / natural processes." Remember, we've seen plenty of cases of scientists saying 'God wouldn't have done it that way' or 'This caused harm, therefore it could not have been designed or foreseen'. The same question goes for the reverse. What does an undesigned event look like? As far as science goes, the only data we have access to are designed events. Undesigned? Those are pure speculation. There may well be no such things in our universe.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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"failing to say *everything* that might be said about 'randomness'" ... regardless that my purpose was to say something specific about (the false) claims advanced about the causal powers of 'randomness.'Ilion
July 9, 2011
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Mung @ 53, The dishonest, and petty, person appears to be faulting me for two things: 1) failing to say *everything* that might be said about 'randomness'; 2) failing to say-and-endorse a false statement about ‘randomness’ before he did so; Sure, I can see why such a person might imagine and crow that he has pwned me.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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---nullasalus: "But still, you get my point." Yes, I think I do. We can't afford to establish a non-overlapping magisterial demarcation between philosophy and science as if to ignore the fact that truth must be a single unity. I take that to be your point and I agree. That is why, unlike some who might want to limit the discussion to scientific models, I think the big picture matters big time.StephenB
July 9, 2011
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Necessity and Design
Hi nullasalus. I haven't really been able to tease out what you point is on this one. ok, sure, design can't take place without necessity. But design also cannot take place without contingency. And sure, some necessary outcome can itself be the product of intelligent design. We'd look at how complex the process is in bringing about the outcome. But I don't understand why necessity is any sort of a problem for the ID argument. We have certain available explanations for a pattern. A pattern which exhibits regularity we're inclined to attribute to some natural law or force, not to the activity of an intelligence (as the cause). As you know I'm one of those who says it's all designed. But I think what ID has to start with is human behavior, human design, human designers, intelligent causes. Is there something that intelligent causes bring to the table that cannot be caused by mechanical necessity? Can you help explain the difficulty for design, as you see it? ThanksMung
July 9, 2011
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Stephen Meyer: "When scientists say that something happened by chance, they do not usually mean to deny that "something" caused the event.....Instead, they usually mean that the event in question occurred because of a combination of factors so complex that it would have been impossible to determine the exact ones responsible for what happened or to have predicted it." "But there is usually more to the notion of chance than that. When scientists attribute an event to chance, they also mean there is no good reason to think the event happened either by design or because of a known physical process that must, of necessity, generate only one possible outcome."StephenB
July 9, 2011
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Ilion:
The phrase “stochastic system” is just another way of saying “random system” … thus, it is just another way of saying “here is a non-system which I am going to pretend is a system”.
Well, not really. At least, the distinction I meant to make was that many systems are highly predictable statistically (we know what the half life of various radioactive elements are, with a high degree of precision) but the events that form the system are random in the sense that you can only predict, statistically, summed over a period of time or space, not what is going to happen at any given instant, or place. So what I mean by a "stochastic system" is one that incorporates stochastic processes, such as radioactive decay. To take a more pertinent examples - we can tell, statistically, that a mutation is beneficial in a given environment, by summing over a whole population, but we cannot tell by looking at an individual, because many factors, orthogonal to the phenotypic effects of the mutation, may affect the reproductive success of the individual. More formally, we can construct stochastic differential equations to model such systems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_differential_equationElizabeth Liddle
July 9, 2011
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"Measurable by Shannon ignorance?" *grin*Ilion
July 9, 2011
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‘chance’ is descriptive of a range of ignorance or the pertinent causal factors. Measurable by Shannon ignorance?Mung
July 9, 2011
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Some scattered comments. StephenB, No, if seven is going to come up, God will say seven is going to come up. Otherwise, he would not be omniscient. The probability drama consists, among other things, in the fact that no one (except God) knows how fair the dice will be, at which angle the thrower will hold his hand, how much force he uses in the throw, and which corner of the cubes hit the table first. God’s foreknowledge about man’s causal actions does not interfere with the fact that man is a causal agent. God knows if the stock market is going to crash. That doesn’t mean that he caused it to happen. Well, no one except God and whoever else may know. 'No one except those who know', really. I'm trying to recognize the possibilities here as being as broad as possible - call it some ID inspired neutrality. But still, you get my point. Remember, this is what I'm targeting in my definition of 'chance': Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind. I actually think that’s pretty straightforward, but let’s note what this definition is not identical to: The claim that outcomes were, largely or in part, the result of natural or material forces. It’s entirely possible for intelligent agents to foresee, intend, and orchestrate these outcomes, whether via direct intervention or well in advance (“front-loading”). Let God have intended or caused the result, or not intended or caused the result. Let the knower be God, gods, some supremely advanced technological being(s), or anything else. The possibilities don't stand open for investigation by science - including the possibility of 'there are no knowers'. I think this is a modest, easily defensible position to take. At the same time, to take it would wreak havoc on some positions many ID critics would oppose anyway. Ilion, “Chance as description” is a statement about our ignorance, it is not a statement about the thing “described” (and thus, the cannot actually be descriptive). I agree completely with this, at least ultimately. Or at least, this is the strongest sense of 'chance' that science can rightly talk about. kf, You have inadvertently shown us how we so easily lock-up into a philosophical log jam. Respectfully, man, I've been watching the ID debates for years now. By eschewing philosophy for 'science', you haven't avoided a log-jam - you've just picked another log-jam. I've seen as much play out with my own eyes, repeatedly. And if you're doing it at the cost of letting your critics get away with passing off their metaphysics as science, all I'll say is this: You've made a rotten deal, and should reconsider it. I mean, you're basically telling me 'philosophy will lead to endless arguments - but SCIENCE is all about purely objective measures that everyone can agree to'. That long string of time where everyone is disagreeing with you - and the fact that scientists regularly and loudly disagree with each other on a variety of topics - should really give you pause. That many of your scientific opponents are seemingly more concerned with metaphysics, philosophy and the smuggling of those two things, should seal the deal. That's not to say I don't think there are empirical reasons to believe in design. There are, and persuasive ones at that. I alluded to some in my own post. I may not consider them scientific, but empirical or at least empirically based, they remain.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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Sigh: Molecular orbitals, an example of what I am discussing:
In chemistry, a molecular orbital (or MO) is a mathematical function describing the wave-like behavior of an electron in a molecule. This function can be used to calculate chemical and physical properties such as the probability of finding an electron in any specific region. The term "orbital" was first used in English by Robert S. Mulliken as the English translation of Schrödinger's 'Eigenfunktion'. It has since been equated with the "region" generated with the function. Molecular orbitals are usually constructed by combining atomic orbitals or hybrid orbitals from each atom of the molecule, or other molecular orbitals from groups of atoms. They can be quantitatively calculated using the Hartree-Fock or Self-Consistent Field (SCF) methods . . . . Molecular orbitals (MOs) represent regions in a molecule where an electron is likely to be found. Molecular orbitals are obtained from the combination of atomic orbitals, which predict the location of an electron in an atom. A molecular orbital can specify the electron configuration of a molecule: the spatial distribution and energy of one (or one pair of) electron(s).
This wavicle and probability distribution phenomenon is of course directly related to the shapes and behaviour of molecules. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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StephenB:
So I am not lying when I point out that he made no such distinction until I raised it.
“… the same distinction which you failed to recognize until prompted to do so …”
Mung
July 9, 2011
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