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Confessions of a Design Heretic

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Those of you who’ve followed my posts and comments will have picked up that my view of Intelligent Design is pretty complicated. On the one hand, I defend design inferences, even strong design inferences. I’m entirely comfortable with questioning Darwinism (if that view still has enough content to identify it as a clear position, anyway), and have a downright dismissive view of both naturalism (if that view… etc) and atheism. I regularly see the ID position butchered, mangled and misrepresented by its detractors, most of whom should and probably do know better.

On the flipside, I don’t think ID (or for that matter, no-ID) is science, even if I reason that if no-ID is science then so is ID. My personal leaning has always been towards theistic evolution, and I see evolution as yet another instance of design rather than something which runs in opposition to it – a view which I know some ID proponents share, but certainly not all. I think non-scientific arguments for and inferences to design have considerable power, and see little reason to elevate particular arguments simply because some insist they’re “scientific”.

Here’s another part of that flipside, and the subject of today’s post. One of the more prominent ID arguments hinges on the trichotomy of Chance, Necessity, and Design. The problem for me is that I question the very existence of Chance, and I see Necessity as subsumable under Design.

Let’s start with the more straightforward issue first: Necessity and design. I think a problem straightaway is that design presupposes necessity, at least in the form of law – and the type of law/necessity you have serves as a limiting factor on design. But more than that, law is implemented and used in our own designs – you need only look at how software is designed and created to see man-made law at work. Likewise, the nature of physical laws of our universe is itself an open question, a thing which has to be explained. It would be enough to point out the mere possibility of “design” as an explanation of these laws to kick some dirt on contrast of necessity and design. The fact that we have intelligent agents implementing laws – arguably comparable laws – in software, systems and designs should be enough to give additional pause.

So what about chance? Well, let’s try to nail down the appropriate definition of chance here: Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind. I actually think that’s pretty straightforward, but let’s note what this definition is not identical to: The claim that outcomes were, largely or in part, the result of natural or material forces. It’s entirely possible for intelligent agents to foresee, intend, and orchestrate these outcomes, whether via direct intervention or well in advance (“front-loading”). Nor is the claim identical to “events and outcomes that were the result of accumulations of (small or large) changes over time”. Once again, such outcomes are entirely compatible with their being foreseen, directed, and intended by a mind, both in advance or directly.

Now, I think this is what many people who play the ‘chance, necessity or design’ card typically mean when they oppose chance to design. (I’m sure other people could go with another definition – but for our purposes I think I’m giving a fair view.) The problem is that, if this is what is meant by chance, then it’s not obvious that “chance” really exists to begin with. That’s not to say someone can’t assume that it exists, or that they can’t mount some kind of argument for the existence of chance based on whatever presuppositions or standards. People can assume whatever they like, and they’re certainly capable of arguing for just about anything. But while design can be verified by first-person experience (just design something), and law is both subsumable under design as well as generally verifiable (just observe regularity), chance – the sort of chance I’m talking about – is, and may well forever remain, a metaphysical assumption. For all we know, and for all science can tell us, this thing may as well not exist.

I want to stress: To question chance in the manner I’m speaking is not to question, say.. the existence of a gaussian distribution, or of uncorrelated patterns, or of any particular patterns at all. A mind could foresee or even determine a gaussian distribution. A mind could create or intend an uncorrelated pattern. But the pattern itself won’t get you where you need to go – not without, ironically enough, a Design Filter. Even Dembski asserts that his DF is incapable of ruling out design in cases where his filter does not go off – but the inability to determine the presence or lack of design in these mundane cases places the very existence of chance in these cases open to question. This doesn’t mean that chance is demonstrated not to exist – only that its existence is one of mere logical possibility. And that ain’t much.

Oddly enough, I think the DF – or investigations similar to the DF – only heightens my point. At least some of the events and outcomes we see in our universe are the result of intention, of guidance, of mind. In principle, most – even all – events and outcomes we see in our universe could be the result of these things, and as our technology grows our own capabilities become more and more incredible on this front. With this in mind, at least from my point of view, I see little reason to treat ‘chance’ in the sense I wrote about in this entry as more than an interesting and remote logical possibility, an extrascientific posit that doesn’t have much to commend it.

Comments
'Chance' is not descriptive of "ranges of statistical possibilities;" 'chance' is descriptive of a range of ignorance or the pertinent causal factors.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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KF, it would be one thing if you ever addressed what I say about the logical impossibility of 'chance' or 'randomness' being a causal factor of any event. But, you never do that.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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---Ilion: (referring to me) "Now this person is blatantly lying. @2 and @4, Ilion made the point that chance, as such, cannot cause anything. A point with which I agree, but one which requires more nuance. @23 I introduced the idea that chance is not a cause, as such, but it refers to a description of ranges of possibilities. So I am not lying when I point out that he made no such distinction until I raised it. If anyone can find a reference in his two posts @2 or 4 about ranges of possibilities or statistical probabilities or ignorance of proposed outcomes, let me know and I will retract my statement. That will not be necessary, however, because the references are not there.StephenB
July 9, 2011
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Yes, I know KF; your constant response on this issue is to *ignore* what I have said, and write a great mass of verbiage having little, if anything, to do with what I have said, and thereby protect you false beliefs from rational evaluation. It is not *only* 'atheists' and Darwinists (and "liberals" and Marxists and Freudians) who do this; howevermuch that it is SOP for them.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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meant 10^26 or sokairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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Ilion:
When a die is cast, there is one, and only one, possible result. That result will be visible when the die stops moving; but someone who could take the appropriate measurements at the instant it is cast, and make the appropriate calculations, would know the physically inevitable result at that instant [--> the problem with sensitive dependence on conditions in this case is this criterion cannot be met in a scientific context, think about how iterations of operations in algorithms through amplified rounding errors can make nonsense of a calculation that is algebraically correct] , before it stops moving.
In short I am saying that your statement is a metaphysical one not a scientific one. I actually just bought a large rubber die: I can watch it tumble slow motion on edges and corners, and see how it is reacting to how the edges and corners act. It is confirming to me the issue that the way edges and corners interact with surfaces is uncontrollable in the fine and that fine difference is enough to make large differences in outcome. Butterfly effect and all that. metaphysically, one can set up a state space expression based on differential equations and provide models of the behaviour of the die. What the models will tell you is that nonlinear, error amplification is at work. Butterfly effect and unpredictability beyond a statistical distribution. Now, consider a warm little pond with life-relevant monomers, interacting through thermal motion, with 10^16 or so molecules in play, moving at reasonable speeds and undergoing not only translation but rotation and vibration, uncorrelated at the different bonds. Now let them jostle and when appropriate energy is favourable, a bond can form, or break. Where q-effects are relevant there is also the possibility of tunnelling through potential barriers, not just classical surmounting. Again, the processes are sensitively and non linearly dependent, and are uncontrollable by us. We can only act in the mass, not in the fine. (That's why BTW in my thot expt on microjets I stopped at micron level particles, as we can hope to manipulate with nanobots at that level. We are talking nanometer range objects here.) It is reasonable to assess on statistical assemblies, based on appropriate mass and energy distribution statistics, and chemical kinetics that work from averaging concepts like concentration and reaction coefficients, to predict equilibrium concentrations. That's what physical chemists do, based on thermodynamics principles, and you can see a fine example in TBO's TMLO chs 7 - 8. In this situation it is reasonable to say that chance plays a causal role, as described. And BTW, knowing the reaction possibilities, energy balances [enthalpies of formation of the molecules are rather adverse, they tend to break down not form spontaneously; note how the cell goes out of the way to assemble these molecules and uses energy battery molecules to drive the process] and the like, we see why it is so maximally unlikely that biologically relevant molecules would spontaneously form and assemble in functional configs to make up a primitive cell. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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The phrase "stochastic system" is just another way of saying "random system" ... thus, it is just another way of saying "here is a non-system which I am going to pretend is a system".Ilion
July 9, 2011
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ilion:
There is no such thing as a “random system.” To speak of “randomness” with respect to something is precisely to speak of a lack of correlation between and among the things one is discussing.
There are however such things as stochastic systems.Elizabeth Liddle
July 9, 2011
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Ilion:
“Chance as description” is a statement about our ignorance, it is not a statement about the thing “described” (and thus, the cannot actually be descriptive).
Yes. One definition of Chance factors I quite like is "unmodeled factors". Statistically, that's essentially what it is - your residuals.Elizabeth Liddle
July 9, 2011
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Nullasalus:
The approach of “let’s keep talking about this ad nauseum until we agree, and by that I mean until you agree with me” doesn’t do much for me.
Nor me. Fortunately it isn't my approach :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 9, 2011
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"(and thus, the [statement] cannot actually be descriptive)"Ilion
July 9, 2011
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Nullasalus @4: "... I’d agree. “Chance as cause” is an error that pops up repeatedly. Maybe what I’m arguing about here is closer to “chance as description” ..." "Chance as description" is a statement about our ignorance, it is not a statement about the thing "described" (and thus, the cannot actually be descriptive).Ilion
July 9, 2011
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"... the same distinction which you failed to recognize until prompted to do so ..." Now this person is blatantly lying.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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gpuccio @32: "You are obviously correct in that, but again I believe that the point is different. When we ask if a random system can generate some form of information, we are not saying that chance “causes” anything. ..." There is no such thing as a "random system." To speak of "randomness" with respect to something is precisely to speak of a lack of correlation between and among the things one is discussing.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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That was a good post, nullasalus. I have posted some comments on it at my blog.
On the flipside, I don’t think ID (or for that matter, no-ID) is science, even if I reason that if no-ID is science then so is ID.
I don't have a problem with that. I don't claim that "no-ID" is science. I don't even claim that there couldn't be a science of ID. I only claim that, in its present form, ID is not science. It is philosophy, and I have no problems with people discussing it as philosophy.Neil Rickert
July 9, 2011
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hi nullasalus, I apologize for the brevity of my initial post. I think it was after my bed time.
I have a die in my hand. If I were to ask God ‘So, what number will come up when I roll?’ would God’s reply be, “I’m not sure. They all have an equal chance of occurring, after all.”?
I, on the other hand, would be inclined to ask God what number will come up if I don't toss the die.Mung
July 9, 2011
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---nullasalus: "I have a die in my hand. If I were to ask God ‘So, what number will come up when I roll?’ would God’s reply be, “I’m not sure. They all have an equal chance of occurring, after all.”?" No, if seven is going to come up, God will say seven is going to come up. Otherwise, he would not be omniscient. The probability drama consists, among other things, in the fact that no one (except God) knows how fair the dice will be, at which angle the thrower will hold his hand, how much force he uses in the throw, and which corner of the cubes hit the table first. God's foreknowledge about man's causal actions does not interfere with the fact that man is a causal agent. God knows if the stock market is going to crash. That doesn't mean that he caused it to happen.StephenB
July 9, 2011
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'Chance’ and ‘Time’ are the dear tenets of modern secular science. Given enough chance or time anything can happen…or can it? Both are merely abstractions drawn from observations, categories in which to place things and events, not actual things themselves, and when one places his trust in modern secular concepts of time and chance instead of scripture he may be led to strange conclusions. Here R. C. Sproul (The Holiness of God) addresses the concept of chance as a causal agent, raising questions about the validity of evolutionary reasoning based on such concepts. Not a Chance: The Myth of Chance in Modern Science and Cosmology
I think I need to go back and re-read this to see what he wrote about Time.Mung
July 9, 2011
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nullasalus:
I see evolution as yet another instance of design rather than something which runs in opposition to it – a view which I know some ID proponents share, but certainly not all.
It probably depends on how you define evolution, whether it is seen as a creative force or a stabilizing force. For what I think is a prime example of a design which employs evolution I say look at the immune system.Mung
July 9, 2011
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---Ilion: "Nullasallus, quoting something I’d not have seen, or bothered myself with, otherwise:" If you would not otherwise bother yourself, then why bother yourself at all? ---"This person appears to be conflating ignorance about a statistical probability — ignorance about the outcomes or potential outcomes of a set of proposed events — for the causation of a specific event." Inasmuch as I introduced the distinction between the two, the same distinction which you failed to recognize until prompted to do so, I could hardly have confused them.StephenB
July 9, 2011
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Ilion: ‘Chance‘ does not cause anything; at most, ‘chance‘ is a statement/confession of ignorance about the full causal-web of something. You are obviously correct in that, but again I believe that the point is different. When we ask if a random system can generate some form of information, we are not saying that chance "causes" anything. What we are saying is: can a random system, where the output of each single event is certainly deterministic, but the sequence of outputs obeys a probabilistic distribution, generate a sequence of outputs which describes the sequence of a functional protein? That question is correct. If we toss a twenty sider die (thak you KF for the idea), and give to each side the value of an aminoacid, how likely is it that a sequence of tosses gives me the sequence of myoglobin? These are correct questions to which we can give correct answers by probability theory. Nowhere we are saying that chance has to cause the sequence of myoglobin. We just ask if that sequence can come out as an output of random events in a random system.gpuccio
July 9, 2011
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"The approach of “let’s keep talking about this ad nause[a]m until we agree, and by that I mean until you agree with me” doesn’t do much for me." Indeed! The passive-aggressive version of intellectual dishonesty is still intellectual dishonesty.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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'Chance' does not cause anything; at most, 'chance' is a statement/confession of ignorance about the full causal-web of something. The things which have causal power in this world are those which can be classed as 'physical/mechanical necessity' and those which can be classed as 'agent freedom'. The materialists deny that there is any 'agent freedom'. Since there obviously is, they try to ascribe causal power to 'chance,' and then to subsume 'agent freedom' under 'chance' -- and most IDists are content to go along with that absurd and dishonest game.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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Nullasallus, quoting something I'd not have seen, or bothered myself with, otherwise: "... To say that something happened by chance is simply to say that a number of physical events, or perhaps a physical process, generates a range of possible outcomes, all of which have an equal chance of occurring." This person appears to be conflating ignorance about a statistical probability -- ignorance about the outcomes or potential outcomes of a set of proposed events -- for the causation of a specific event. When a die is cast, there is one, and only one, possible result. That result will be visible when the die stops moving; but someone who could take the appropriate measurements at the instant it is cast, and make the appropriate calculations, would know the physically inevitable result at that instant, before it stops moving.Ilion
July 9, 2011
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KF: Very well said.gpuccio
July 9, 2011
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Null (et al): You have inadvertently shown us how we so easily lock-up into a philosophical log jam. We need a different way. Let us remember, science has to work with people of diverse worldviews -- BTW, this is one of the problems with evo mat, it is violating that informal standard of science. It can do so by focussing on objective observable realities, insofar as we can agree that we will trust our senses and extensions thereof and in some sense, our minds, not to systematically deceive us. Down that alternative track lies a morass of absurdities and no possibility of progress. So, science sets out to provide useful maps of reality, that hopefully capture enough to guide us successfully, and are open to correction. In that light: 1: Mechanical necessity as causal pattern is modelled on a paradigm, as it turns out the founding paradigm of modern science, Newtonian dynamics. 2: Initial conditions, causal patterns, playout as time unfolds per deterministic mechanical laws. 3: When we do experiments we find scatter, some of which cannot be traced to merely uncontrolled variables, so we see chance circumstances and influences leading to statistical scatter of outcomes as observed. 4: The observations of astronomical values is a particularly important case. Bearing in mind bias and drift, so is surveying, e.g the survey that gave the original definition of the metre. That kind of uncontrolled variable tends to give biases, as do personal equations that actually led to quarrels among astronomers at one point. Context of Gauss' error curve. 5: WITHOUT COMMITMENT TO ONE WORLDVIEW OVER ANOTHER, we can treat paradigm cases, such as the tossing of a die. Random variable models matched to empirical observations give us an operational framework for conceiving of chance. 6: Given 1 and 2, with nonlinear dynamics that amplify small changes, we can account for the die, i.e. small uncontrolled variations, indeed beyond our control, have significant influences as uncorrelated chains of cause-effect clash. 7: The brute given of that variability beyond our effective control, and the related concept of a random initial point in a space of initial configs, allows us to see chance as a factor in the causal chain without making grand metaphysical commitments. 8: This view applies to a great many things, the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution, diffusion temperature, pressure, or even how a random scatter of paint drops gives an even coat effect, are all cases. 9: We may also look at the random variable statistical component in quantum effects like radioactive decay. 10: So, we have a reason to discuss chance as a causal factor, and a framework for modelling it. 11: the debates over God and foreknowledge or determinism are irrelevant, indeed since God presumably is present everywhere and every-when and is capable of interacting at any point in light of that, God's knowledge of the state of the atoms about to decay in a sample have no decisive bearing on their behaviour. 12: It is not a denigration of his sovereignty to say that the gave atoms the degrees of freedom they seem to have, no more than that he gave us the degree of freedom we seem to have -- and must have if we are to be responsible thinkers, know-ers and deciders. 13: But also, on observing signs of necessity, chance and choice, which can be empirically tested, we can then credibly identify causal factor, in the immediate sense per aspect of a phenomenon, and reasonably discuss. 14: And, we can then infer from say DNA to design of life, and beginning and fine tuning of cosmos to design. ON AN EMPIRICAL BASIS, THROUGH SCIENTIFIC METHODS. 15: Providing EVIDENCE that -- without begging questions -- supports the credibility of believing in the design of cosmos and life. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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GP: A coin, ideally, is a two-sided die. I gather one can get 100 siders, but 2 x 10-siders [different colours] work better. Gkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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To say that something happened by chance is simply to say that a number of physical events, or perhaps a physical process, generates a range of possible outcomes, all of which have an equal chance of occurring. I have a die in my hand. If I were to ask God 'So, what number will come up when I roll?' would God's reply be, "I'm not sure. They all have an equal chance of occurring, after all."? You don't even need to bring in God. I'd say it's at least possible, certainly as far as we know, for some sufficiently intelligent, informed and/or powerful being to know or even determine what number will come up. This is 'map and territory' stuff. The idealization, the model, is 'all the possible outcomes have an equal chance of occurring'. And that model has application in a number of ways. But the model is not reality itself.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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as to this comment: 'The problem for me is that I question the very existence of Chance,' Yes indeed chance in the pure sense is an illusion,,,,It is interesting to note where 'chance' crops up; One place where 'chance' crops up in reality is in wave function collapse of quantum mechanics, the other place is in thermodynamics. But alas neither of these are really 'chance', in the pure sense of the word, for they are 'governed' by overriding mathematical equations; Schrodinger and Boltzmann equations respectfully: The Five Foundational Equations of the Universe: https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfNDdnc3E4bmhkZg&hl=en ,,, so how can 'governed chance' really be 'random chance' at all, as the naturalist/atheist requires it to be in his worldview??? Moreover, requiring 'chance' to be foundational to reality, as a staring presupposition in science as atheists continually try to 'smuggle' into science (i.e. methodological naturalism), destroys the very possibility of doing science rationally; and Though it can seriously be considered true that reality itself could not exist without God, if we were to grant true 'random chance' its foundational role to 'ultimate reality', as atheists would love for us to do, reality itself would dissolve into absurdity: What Would The World Look Like If Atheism Were Actually True? http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5486757/bornagain77
July 9, 2011
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The first order of business is to realize that we live in a rational universe, which means, among other things, that a philosophical truth cannot negate of even conflict with a scientific truth. In that context, good philosophy is nothing more than amplified reason and common sense. If we do it right, it will illuminate our science. So, let’s begin with common sense. Chance, as such, cannot cause anything because chance cannot do anything. Insofar as ID scientists imply that it does, they are mistakenly using a kind of linguistic shorthand that should be immediately followed by some kind of caveat. Physical events are normally caused by other physical events, often by a multiplicity of physical events, and it is there that we find the problem. When I throw a pair of dice, for example, the outcome is determined by a number of physical factors, none of which have anything at all to do with chance. On the other hand, if the dice are fair, any number from two to twelve will have an equal chance of coming up. In that sense, chance is simply a way of describing the unpredictable nature of the outcome. To say that something happened by chance is simply to say that a number of physical events, or perhaps a physical process, generates a range of possible outcomes, all of which have an equal chance of occurring.StephenB
July 9, 2011
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