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COVID-19 and the need for skeptics in science

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Now more than ever:

Since World War II, America has suffered two respiratory pandemics comparable to COVID-19: the 1958 “Asian flu,” then the 1969 “Hong Kong flu.” In neither case did we shut down the economy—people were simply more careful. Not all that careful, of course—Jimi Hendrix was playing at Woodstock in the middle of the 1969 pandemic, and social distancing wasn’t really a thing in the “Summer of Love.”

And yet COVID-19 was very different thanks to a single “buggy mess” of a computer prediction from one Neil Ferguson, a British epidemiologist given to hysterical overestimates of deaths, from mad cow to bird flu to H1N1.

For COVID-19, Ferguson predicted 3 million deaths in America unless we basically shut down the economy. Panicked policymakers took his prediction as gospel, dressed as it was in the cloak of science.

Now, long after governments plunged half the world into a Great Depression, those panicked revisions are being quietly revised down by an order of magnitude, now suggesting a final tally comparable to 1958 and 1969.

COVID-19 would have been a deadly pandemic with or without Ferguson’s fantasies, but had we known the true scale and parameters of the threat we might have chosen better tailored means to both safeguard the elderly and at-risk, while sustaining the wider economy. After all, economists have long known that mass unemployment and widespread bankruptcies carry enormous health consequences that are very real to the victims suffering drained life savings, ruined businesses, broken families, widespread mental and physical health deterioration, even suicide. Decisions involve tradeoffs.

COVID-19 has illustrated the importance of free and robust inquiry…

Indeed, every major scientific advance challenged the “settled science” of its day, and was often denounced as pernicious and false, even dangerous. The modern blood transfusion, for example, was developed in the late 1600s, then banned for nearly a century by a hostile medical establishment, “canceling” tens of millions of lives at the altar of groupthink and hostility to skeptics.

Peter St. Onge, “The COVID-19 Panic Shows Us Why Science Needs Skeptics” at Mises Wire

The thing is, it used to just be sympathizers of some unpopular viewpoint like ID getting deplatformed. Now, COVID-19 has raised the stakes, with so many official sources demanding obedience to conflicting and wrong ideas. And our neighbors can’t afford to ignore just how destructive the establishment line, unfettered and unhinged, can be.

It’s a good time to talk to them about the problems with Establishment Science today. Too much arrogance and politicking; not enough humility or integrity.

Comments
I see that there has been a great deal of emphasis on in vitro data so much so that I feel it has led some astray from being able to evaluate the evidence for HCQ efficacy. For example many of the presented links are for virus research that is not COVID-19. When we look at the COVID-19 specific iin vitro data we see a different story. For example a recent publication presented data that HCQ does not prevent COVID-19 replication in lung tissue culture. The authors also present a mechanism describing why this data differs from the green monkey kidney cell data which should be addressed and not ignored. From a recent publication in Nature: https://theconversation.com/why-hydroxychloroquine-and-chloroquine-dont-block-coronavirus-infection-of-human-lung-cells-143234 Their findings clearly show that that HQC can block the coronavirus from infecting kidney cells from the African green monkey. But it does not inhibit the virus in human lung cells – the primary site of infection for the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
In order for the virus to enter a cell, it can do so by two mechanisms – one, when the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein attaches to the ACE2 receptor and inserts its genetic material into the cell. In the second mechanism, the virus is absorbed into some special compartments in cells called endosomes. Depending on the cell type, some, like kidney cells, need an enzyme called cathepsin L for the virus to successfully infect them. In lung cells, however, an enzyme called TMPRSS2 (on the cell surface) is necessary. Cathepsin L requires an acidic environment to function and allow the virus to infect the cell, while TMPRSS2 does not. In the green monkey kidney cells, both hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine decrease the acidity, which then disables the cathepsin L enzyme, blocking the virus from infecting the monkey cells. In human lung cells, which have very low levels of cathepsin L enzyme, the virus uses the enzyme TMPRSS2 to enter the cell. But because that enzyme is not controlled by acidity, neither HCQ and CQ can block the SARS-CoV-2 from infecting the lungs or stop the virus from replicating.
Additionally, I’ve read some comments that suggest it is pH changes, via HCQ administration, that change the shape of the ACE receptor and prevents viral infection. On several fronts this is mistaken. To believe that HCQ can affect the tightly controled blood/plasma pH is to suggest that HCQ can overwhelm the bicarbonate buffer system (with dire consequences). This is simply mistaken. Recent cell culture work has elucidated the mechanism by which HCQ might affect the ACE receptor and it is through the mechanism of inhibiting terminal glycosylation of the ACE receptor which prevents the COVID-19 virus from binding to the S-protein. This has been demonstrated in cell culture but has not been confirmed in vivo. Pretty much all cells have between 0.1-0.5 mMol zinc so there is a boatload of zinc in each cell. Unfortunately, the virus appears to be quite able to replicate in the presence of zinc.RHolt
August 10, 2020
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Umm, the OTC method is a prophylaxis. It prevents people from reaching the hospitalization stage. Raoult's regimen works without zinc because of the pH affect. And again, I would NOT use HCQ- not as a pH changer and not as an ionophore. RH is just fishing/ trolling.ET
August 10, 2020
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Jerry says that Raoult does not use Zinc, but ET who constantly brings it up said, “Proper OTC supplementation would have prevented over half of the covid-19 fatalities. The media should be hyping that medically recommended prophylaxis.” Raoult’s regimen works without Zinc yet the OTC would reduce deaths by 50%? The both of you are widely apart in this - and it’s just one example.rhampton7
August 10, 2020
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Myocarditis, inflammation of the heart muscle, has been found in at least five Big Ten Conference athletes and among several other athletes in other conferences, according to two sources with knowledge of athletes' medical care. The condition is usually caused by a viral infection, including those that cause the common cold, H1N1 influenza or mononucleosis. Left undiagnosed and untreated, it can cause heart damage and sudden cardiac arrest, which can be fatal. It is a rare condition, but the COVID-19 virus has been linked with myocarditis with a higher frequency than other viruses, based on limited studies and anecdotal evidence since the start of the pandemic. Dr. John MacKnight, the head primary care team physician at the University of Virginia, said that while questions about COVID-19 testing availability, turnaround time for results, and the impact of a possible community surge of cases have all been factors in deciding to return to competition, the long-term cardiac concerns for athletes may be the tipping point. https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29633697/heart-condition-linked-covid-19-fuels-power-5-concern-season-viabilityrhampton7
August 10, 2020
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Right, Jerry. When HCQ is used alone I bring up pH values. That's because the way HCQ alone is supposed to work by altering the pH which has an effect on the ACE2 receptors. HCQ is also an ionophore, as you said. Your link to MedCram update 34 was very educational, as are they all.ET
August 10, 2020
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Fitst, I suspect you will find that each of you has a different understanding of what HCQ can do.
I doubt that we have different understandings. How HCQ works has been discussed several times. Search for the term ionophore on this site. Kf, ET and I have all referenced it just in this thread. But also in others as well. Here is a link to a comment from almost 4 months ago. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/inference-review-devotes-issue-to-covid-19/#comment-698684 Here is a comment from April 2 about how HCQ works. https://uncommondescent.com/medicine/hydroxychloroquine-wars-6-dr-zelenkos-interview-with-rudy-giuliani/#comment-697166 We have all advocated HCQ and zinc for over 4 months. The Zelenko protocol uses the combination of HCQ, zinc and azithromycin. He recently listed another anti-biotic that could be used in place of azithromycin. Everyone is on the same page. Raoult does not use zinc so this means it works in additional ways that are different than an ionophore for zinc. ET, I am sure will bring up the effect of HCQ on ph values in the cell. I personally believe the Zelenko protocol is best but other ways of using have also worked. Dr. Proctor in Texas adds some other things to the protocol but uses HCQ, zinc and an anti-biotic. In regards to Raoult's protocol, HCQ could also be providing a pathway for zinc to enter the cell but in this case it would be dependent on zinc being available in the diet. Some doctors are adding other things to the treatment and are reporting success. As far as science being used. What led me to believe this works besides the reports of doctors using it successfully is the science behind it. See MedCram 34 for a discussion of HCQ and zinc. Also we have links to a reference list of about 40 studies in the last 35 years that indicate HCQ's effectiveness with combating viruses. All of which has been presented multiple times which leads one to come to the conclusion that you and others do not read relevant links. I am sure Kf and ET will agree with everything in this comment which proves you wrong.jerry
August 10, 2020
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the evidence that HCQ doesn’t help is of much higher quality.
I have seen none. So how can any be of high quality. If you disagree with me, point to one of these high quality examples of evidence. Please don't say we already have done this. Take the time and point to one or two. Fauci doesn't know of any because he referenced irrelevant studies before Congress and on television which is why I am saying he is lying. He knows he is providing misinformation.jerry
August 10, 2020
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RH7, several reasonable protocols have been given, which have worked. I believe the Swiss one is in the thread above. Acting as though such have not been long since on record simply shows that you are not really interacting seriously. KFkairosfocus
August 10, 2020
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BO'H, you can deny the reality of thousands of the successfully treated all you want, that is nonetheless adequate evidence. KFkairosfocus
August 10, 2020
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Here’s an idea: KF, Jerry, ET, et al. Each succinctly post what you believe HCQ can and can not do, along with the required dosages, accompanied drugs etc. Fitst, I suspect you will find that each of you has a different understanding of what HCQ can do. Second, each of you will have different requirements for what is the correct HCQ protocol. Why is this important? It demonstrates that you are not using Science do support your position. Prove me wrong.rhampton7
August 10, 2020
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A doctor in England wanted to prove that face masks won’t impair your oxygen levels. So he ran for 22 miles while wearing one. Throughout his running journey, Tom Lawton used a pulse oximeter to monitor his oxygen levels. The medical device measures the saturation of oxygen in a person’s red blood cells and typically clips to your finger. “The mask didn’t come off at all (no food or drink), and oxygen levels were stubbornly 98% every time I checked,” he tweeted last month. https://www.cbs17.com/community/health/coronavirus/doctor-runs-22-miles-in-face-mask-to-prove-theyre-safe/rhampton7
August 10, 2020
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kf - True, but HCQ hasn't has that. When it's been tested rigorously, it's repeatedly failed, unfortunately.Bob O'H
August 10, 2020
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BO'H, actual repeated success is good evidence. KFkairosfocus
August 10, 2020
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Jerry @ 460 - I was trying to understand what you were saying. In particular, why would you headline a study with "Hope" if by your standards it wasn't relevant. It just seems odd.
There seems to be people that say no treatments have any positive effect which is despair or there are people who say that there are definitely treatments that have positive effects which is hope.
Luckily I don't think there is anyone who's ever said that say no treatments have any positive effect.
I believe there are treatments that reduce the likelihood that one will progress to serious stages of the disease and that there is evidence for this. And that there is evidence that appropriate use of HCQ is one of those treatments.
OK, but for most experts who have looked at the evidence, the evidence for is not very good, and the evidence that HCQ doesn't help is of much higher quality. This isn't just a single study, it's come from several, looking at different stages of the disease, including prophylaxis and very early stages.Bob O'H
August 10, 2020
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RHampton- It is obvious that you have NOT been following along.ET
August 10, 2020
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So why show hope with a study when you’ve no idea if it’s relevant or not? Isn’t that peddling false hope?
No false hope. Just the opposite. I’m not sure exactly what you are trying to say. It seems convoluted. To me it is quite simple and very logical. There is currently no official accepted treatment for C19 other than letting one’s immune system fight the virus and It is known a certain percentage will die. People are generally scared that they or their loved ones will get the virus and either die or have long lasting serious health issues. That is despair. Then there is the position that there are treatments that will reduce the likelihood of serious illness and death dramatically. This is hope. There seems to be people that say no treatments have any positive effect which is despair or there are people who say that there are definitely treatments that have positive effects which is hope. I am in the latter camp. I believe there are treatments that reduce the likelihood that one will progress to serious stages of the disease and that there is evidence for this. And that there is evidence that appropriate use of HCQ is one of those treatments. There are definitely others. This is quite different from what to do if one has progressed to a severe stage of the disease and what to do then. But even here there is some evidence that HCQ can have some positive effects if used appropriately. I’m amazed by the callousness of some officials such as Fauci who has lied on television and before Congress on this. I say he lied because if anyone should understand this issue, he should. Why does he lie?jerry
August 10, 2020
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Jerry -
Are you now saying that hope is irrelevant?
Just the opposite. I am offering hope because there is a way to reduce the deaths.
So why show hope with a study when you've no idea if it's relevant or not? Isn't that peddling false hope?Bob O'H
August 9, 2020
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RH7, at no point have I excluded any reasonable treatment, including preventatives. What I have argued is for prudent response to actual cumulative evidence, from in lab results to models of mechanisms, to reckoning with off label repurposing of tested [thus known reasonably safe] drugs, to animal analogues, to case results to more structured experimentation, to respect for the professional opinion of the physician working with his or her patient, to reckoning responsibly with the U/L trajectory of illnesses like CV19; all, bearing in mind ethical duties. I find it interesting that you have twisted that into advocacy for one specific drug. Did you notice my response when Jerry brought attention to Ivermectin, May 23? It is clipped above. KFkairosfocus
August 9, 2020
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ET, that’s not what KF has been promoting these many months. And it certainly refutes Jerry’s cure belief.rhampton7
August 9, 2020
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It is useless if a blood concentration level of >40nG/mL vitamin D is a pre-requisite. But it all depends. It may be useless and it may be a cure/ ease the symptoms for a faster recovery. It depends on how spread the virus is in the infected person. I want it, without HCQ and with quercetin, as a prophylaxis. And the vitamin C absolutely has to be liposomal. Our immune systems need to be built up before the virus taxes them. That is the way to go.ET
August 9, 2020
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I know the meaning, but you are suggesting that as a treatment starting on or after day one is useless.rhampton7
August 9, 2020
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I am saying you need the stuff in your system so you won't get sick. That is what the meaning of the word is- a prophylaxis is the action taken to prevent the disease. Once symptoms appear there may be too much of the virus present for some people to recover regardless of what they do next. The prophylaxis from the EVMS paper on covid-19 management is the way to go.ET
August 9, 2020
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ET, so your contention is that HCQ+zinc can’t be used as a treatment for Covid-19, even one day 1?rhampton7
August 9, 2020
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Fittingly there isn't any data on the amounts given. Or if the vitamin C was liposomal or not. And AGAIN, the prophylaxis is for people BEFORE they get to the hospital. Take it now to prevent illness next week, or however long the vitamin D takes to build up.ET
August 9, 2020
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Zinc also failed to show a beneficial effect on hospitalized patients in a study published by CHEST on July 22. The retrospective study looked at all 242 patients admitted to one U.S. medical center with COVID-19, 81.0% of whom received zinc sulfate. The study found no significant difference in days to inpatient mortality between patients who did and didn't receive zinc, including in subgroups stratified by severity of illness. The authors cautioned that an effect could not be ruled out since the study was limited by its small size and risk of confounding and noted that randomized trials are needed to establish the efficacy of zinc in COVID-19. >> To explore the additive effect of zinc therapy on various therapies, we performed subgroup analyses among patients who received hydroxychloroquine, lopinavir/ritonavir, steroids, and IL-6 receptor inhibitors. The ?2 test for balance assessed whether the distribution of covariates did not vary across treatment levels. >> Our analyses demonstrate the lack of a causal association between zinc and the survival of hospitalized patients with COVID-19. Similarly, subgroup analyses stratified by severity or additional therapies did not yield significant causal associations. Given this study’s observational design, our findings must not be used to rule in or rule out the clinical benefit of zinc in the management of COVID-19. In addition, given the short period of observation, the effect estimate provides only a signal for a treatment effect, or the lack thereof, and must not be interpreted as the absolute number of days of survival among the treated.10 Instead, our analyses may be used by prospective trials to determine the sample size necessary to assess survival benefit or may galvanize investigation using other outcomes of interest. https://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(20)31961-9/fulltext Of course an RCT is a next step (for those who still think such things are worthwhile)rhampton7
August 9, 2020
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The randomized placebo-controlled trial, which rapidly launched on March 22, tested if hydroxychloroquine could decrease severity of COVID-19 symptoms and prevent hospitalization. The trial enrolled 491 non-hospitalized adults from across 40 U.S. states and three Canadian provinces. Participants were enrolled in the first four days of symptoms with 56% enrolled within one day of symptom onset. Half of the participants received five days of hydroxychloroquine while the other half received five days of a placebo. The trial was a double-blind trial, meaning that neither the participants nor the researchers knew which participants received the placebo or trial drug. Participants were monitored for two weeks to see how quickly symptoms receded and to see who became hospitalized, seriously ill, or passed away. In addition, there was no benefit in faster resolution of symptom severity among those who also took zinc or vitamin C with either hydroxychloroquine or placebo. https://twin-cities.umn.edu/news-events/early-treatment-mild-covid-19-university-minnesota-trial-shows-hydroxychloroquine-has-no A penny for your thoughtsrhampton7
August 9, 2020
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For a penny more they could have also taken prophylactic doses of zinc. It is really sad to see people, medical professionals at that, focusing on one part of the prophylaxis and being surprised when it doesn't work. It's no wonder people are dying from this outbreakET
August 9, 2020
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A survey of 176 infected doctors revealed that prophylactic doses of hydroxychloroquine could not protect them, as 76% got the infection despite being on the anti-malarial drug. It appears that BCG and measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccination too taken in childhood were not too helpful. Most of the infections took place in May and June when Mumbai is believed to have seen its peak. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/mumbai-of-10-doctors-with-virus-8-took-hydroxychloroquine-but-it-didnt-help/articleshow/77453786.cmsrhampton7
August 9, 2020
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I asked them if social distancing has pushed anyone over the edge
No, because they had already flattened the curve.jerry
August 9, 2020
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I crashed a Flat Earth Society party. I asked them if social distancing has pushed anyone over the edge. :cool:ET
August 9, 2020
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