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Denmark: it’s no secular paradise. Neither is Sweden.

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Recently there has been a spate of newspaper reports extolling Denmark as the world’s happiest country. Secular liberals often point to the Scandinavian countries as an earthly paradise, when compared with what they see as a broken-down, inegalitarian, hyper-religious United States. Are they right? I decided to check out the facts, and here’s what I’ve come up with.

My findings, in a nutshell

1. Latin Americans are actually the world’s happiest people; Danes are the world’s most contented people.

2. The success of Sweden and Denmark is due to its social homogeneity and its Protestant work ethic, rather than socialism.

3. Scandinavian societies are egalitarian, but they also tend to stifle individuality.

4. Denmark and Sweden have their own social problems.

5. Sweden also has a shocking record of violating individual liberties.

1. Latin Americans are actually the world’s happiest people; Danes are the world’s most contented people

How do you define happiness, anyway?

Most people would tend to define “happiness” as a feeling of enjoying your life, typically accompanied by behavior such as laughing or smiling a lot, engaging in fun activities, and sharing one’s positive experiences with one’s friends and family. If you define happiness in this way, then the happiest people in the world aren’t the Danes, but Latin Americans.

A 2015 Gallup report by Jon Clifton, titled, Who Are the Happiest People in the World? The Swiss or Latin Americans? (April 24, 2015), explains the difference between two widely used international metrics for happiness. One metric, used in the UN World Happiness Report, places the Danes (or in 2015, the Swiss) on top, while the other metric, used by Gallup in its Global Healthways Wellbeing Index, places Latin American countries on top:

The Swiss are the happiest people on the planet. That was the conclusion of the most recent UN World Happiness Report. Just weeks ago, however, Gallup released a report suggesting something very different — that the happiest people in the world are Latin Americans. Which one is right?

The answer is “both” — it just depends on how you define happiness. If you think happiness is how people see their lives — then the Swiss are the happiest people in the world. If you think happiness is defined by how people live their lives through experiences such as smiling and laughing, enjoyment and feeling treated with respect each day — then the happiest people in the world are Latin Americans.

The 2014 Global Healthways Wellbeing Index defines “well-being” as a composite of five elements. Within each of these constituents, there are three possible levels of well-being:

Definitions

The Five Elements of Well-Being

Purpose: Liking what you do each day and being motivated to achieve your goals
Social: Having supportive relationships and love in your life
Financial: Managing your economic life to reduce stress and increase security
Community: Liking where you live, feeling safe and having pride in your community
Physical: Having good health and enough energy to get things done daily

Levels of Well-Being

Thriving: Well-being that is strong and consistent in a particular element
Struggling: Well-being that is moderate or inconsistent in a particular element
Suffering: Well-being that is low and inconsistent in a particular element

The world’s happiest people are found in Latin America, not Scandinavia

According to the 2014 Global Healthways Wellbeing Index, Panama is the happiest country in the world, and most of the top 10 countries are in Latin America. Denmark ranks just 7th in the world:

New country rankings from the Gallup-Healthways Global Well-Being Index show that, for the second time since last year’s inaugural report, Panama has the highest overall well-being in the world. The new report, “2014 Country Well-Being Rankings Report”, ranks 145 countries and areas based on the percentages of their residents that are thriving in three or more well-being elements.

The Americas have a strong presence in the ten countries with the world’s highest overall well-being, with seven countries on the list. After Panama, rounding out the top ten are Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Switzerland, Belize, Chile, Denmark, Guatemala, Austria and Mexico…
[FYI: Norway came 16th, Sweden 26th, USA 23rd, Canada 24th, Australia 40th, UK 44th, Russia 47th, France 48th – VJT.]

The Gallup-Healthways Global Well-Being Index uses a holistic definition of well-being and self-reported data from individuals across the globe to create a unique view of societies’ progress on the elements that matter most to well-being: purpose, social, financial, community and physical. It is the most proven, mature and comprehensive measure of well-being in populations…

People in Latin America (and especially, people living in Panama and Costa Rica) experience a lot of positive emotions on a daily basis, according to a Gallup report by Jon Clifton titled, Mood of the World Upbeat on International Happiness Day (March 19, 2015):

As the world marks the third annual International Day of Happiness on Friday, the happiest people on the planet might be Latin Americans. People in Latin America are the most likely in the world to experience a lot of positive emotions on a daily basis, according to Gallup’s Positive Experience Index. In fact, for the first time in Gallup’s 10-year history of global tracking, all of the top 10 countries with the highest Positive Experience Index scores are in Latin America.

Why are the people of Panama so happy?

Journalist Homa Khaleeli examines the secret to happiness in Panama, in a Guardian report titled, World’s happiest country: how did Panama overtake Denmark? (September 17, 2014):

A poll by Gallup and Healthways Global reports that the Central American country now has the most positive population, after 133,000 people from 135 countries were asked to rate their wellbeing in five categories: purpose, social, financial, community and physical.

So what makes people in Panama so cheery?

Cultural attache for Panama, Laura Montenegro, thinks it is down to the fact the country has a thriving economy and has maintained its traditional values. “Family bonds are very strong here, and on Sundays everyone still gets together,” she says. “So even when people are struggling they don’t feel alone. We have a very beautiful landscape too and even in Panama city you never feel too far from nature. We have a booming economy and financial stability. When the global financial crisis hit, Panama came out of it even better than before, because our banks had been very cautious.”

Another factor that helps explain why Panamians are so happy is that Latin Americans also tend to focus on the positive, according to a Gallup report titled, People Worldwide Are Reporting a Lot of Positive Emotions (May 21, 2014):

That so many people are reporting positive emotions in Latin America at least partly reflects the cultural tendency in the region to focus on the positives in life.

The Danes: contented, rather than happy

What about the people of Denmark? Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that the Danes are contented rather than happy, and that their contentment is based on having low expectations, according to a report by Michael Booth in The Atlantic titled, The Danish Don’t Have the Secret to Happiness (January 30, 2015):

Over the years I have asked many Danes about these happiness surveys—whether they really believe that they are the global happiness champions — and I have yet to meet a single one of them who seriously believes it’s true.

Newspaper editor Anne Knudsen had an interesting theory relating to why the Danes continue to respond positively to happiness surveys: “In Denmark it is shameful to be unhappy,” she told me. “If you ask me how I am and I start telling you how bad I feel, then it might force you to do something about it. It might put a burden on you to help me. So, that’s one of the main reasons people say things are all right, or even ‘super.’”

Here’s another convincing theory, posited by a Danish friend of mine: “We always come top of those surveys because they ask us at the beginning of the year what our expectations are,” he said. “Then they ask us at the end of the year whether those expectations were met. And because our expectations are so extremely low at the beginning of the year, they tend to get met more easily.

Could that be the secret of the Danes’ contentedness? Low expectations? … Happiness has never been an “inalienable right” in Denmark, so it could be that the Danes appreciate it all the more when it manifests itself. Perhaps Danish happiness is not really happiness at all, but something much more valuable and durable: contentedness, being satisfied with your lot, low-level needs being met, higher expectations being kept in check.

Other theories about Danish “happiness”: anti-depressants and Danish DNA

A recent report in The Local [Denmark] (March 16, 2016) discusses other theories that have been put forward as to why Danes score well in happiness surveys:

Theories abound for why Danes consistently rank so high in these types of studies. Some say it’s down to having more realistic expectations while others cynically point to the nation’s high use of antidepressants, with upwards of 12 percent of the population on some sort of antidepressant medication.

Another theory is that it is genetic. Eugenio Proto, a researcher at the University of Warwick, told The Local in 2014 that his analysis of data on 131 countries from various international surveys on happiness found that the more ‘Danish’ people are, the happier they are as well.

“If you have Danish DNA, regardless of where you live, you are likely to report high levels of happiness,” Proto said.

2. The success of Sweden and Denmark is due to its social homogeneity and its Protestant work ethic; socialism has nothing to do with it

Regardless of whether they are the world’s happiest nations or not, Sweden and Denmark are undeniably successful countries. Many people put this down to Scandinavia’s cradle-to-grave welfare system. However, a report in the Boston Globe by Jeff Jacoby titled, No, Bernie Sanders, Scandinavia is not a socialist utopia (October 15, 2015) explains why the reality of Scandinavia’s welfare-state utopia doesn’t match the hype. As it turns out, the real roots of Scandinavia’s success lie in its traditional work ethic and its embrace of free-market policies in the nineteenth century:

To begin with, explains Swedish scholar Nima Sanandaji, the affluence and cultural norms upon which Scandinavia’s social-democratic policies rest are not the product of socialism. In “Scandinavian Unexceptionalism,” a penetrating new book published by the Institute of Economic Affairs, Sanandaji shows that the Nordic nations’ prosperity “developed during periods characterized by free-market policies, low or moderate taxes, and limited state involvement in the economy.

For example, Sweden was a poor nation for most of the 19th century (which helps explain the great wave of Swedish emigration to the United States in the 1800s). That began to change as Stockholm, starting around 1870, turned to free-enterprise reforms Robust capitalism replaced the formerly agrarian system, and Sweden grew rich. “Property rights, free markets, and the rule of law combined with large numbers of well-educated engineers and entrepreneurs,” Sanandaji writes. The result was an environment in which Swedes experienced “an unprecedented period of sustained and rapid economic development.” In fact, between 1870 and 1936, Sweden had the highest growth rate in the industrialized world.

Scandinavia’s hard-left turn didn’t come about until much later…

The real key to Scandinavia’s unique successes isn’t socialism, it’s culture. Social trust and cohesion, a broad egalitarian ethic, a strong emphasis on work and responsibility, commitment to the rule of law — these are healthy attributes of a Nordic culture that was ingrained over centuries. In the region’s small and homogeneous countries (overwhelmingly white, Protestant, and native-born), those norms took deep root. The good outcomes and high living standards they produced antedated the socialist nostrums of the 1970s. Scandinavia’s quality of life didn’t spring from leftist policies. It survived them.

3. Scandinavian societies are egalitarian, but tend to stifle individuality

A strong egalitarian ethic pervades Scandinavian societies. While this egalitarian ethic provides people with a sense of security, it also tends to stifle people’s individuality.

The Jante Law: the conformist social ethic that governs Scandinavia

Most North American readers may not realize that Scandinavian societies are governed by a set of social conventions, which are known unofficially as the “Law of Jante“:

The Jante Law as a concept was created by the Dano-Norwegian author Aksel Sandemose, who, in his novel A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks (En flyktning krysser sitt spor, 1933, English translation published in the USA in 1936), identified the Law of Jante as ten rules. Sandemose’s novel portrays the small Danish town Jante …, where nobody is anonymous…

Generally used colloquially in Denmark and the rest of the Nordic countries as a sociological term to negatively describe a condescending attitude towards individuality and success, the term refers to a mentality that de-emphasises individual effort and places all emphasis on the collective, while discouraging those who stand out as achievers.

There are ten rules in the law as defined by Sandemose, all expressive of variations on a single theme and usually referred to as a homogeneous unit: You are not to think you’re anyone special or that you’re better than us.

The ten rules state:

You’re not to think you are anything special.
You’re not to think you are as good as we are.
You’re not to think you are smarter than we are.
You’re not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You’re not to think you know more than we do.
You’re not to think you are more important than we are.
You’re not to think you are good at anything.
You’re not to laugh at us.
You’re not to think anyone cares about you.
You’re not to think you can teach us anything.

These ten principles or commandments are often claimed to form the “Jante’s Shield” of the Scandinavian people.

How the Jante Law poisons the Danish education system

In a Guardian article titled, Dark lands: the grim truth behind the ‘Scandinavian miracle’ (January 27, 2014), Michael Booth (who lives in Denmark with his Danish wife and family) reports that the Jante law mentality leads Danes to overlook talented people and celebrate mediocrity:

[A] prominent newspaper commentator, Jyllands-Posten’s Niels Lillelund, pinpointed a more serious side effect of the Danes’ Jante Law mentality: “In Denmark we do not raise the inventive, the hardworking, the ones with initiative, the successful or the outstanding; we create hopelessness, helplessness, and the sacred, ordinary mediocrity.”

Last year, in an interview with Rob Montz, a journalist writing for Reason magazine (Scandinavia is a Collectivist Paradise? Not So Much, April 30, 2015), Michael Booth described how Denmark’s egalitarian ethic plays out at school:

We sent our kids to a mainstream state school, which is based on the principles of raising the lower ability children up to the median. It’s all-inclusive, so you can’t exclude children if they’re badly behaved or have special needs or that kind of thing. That didn’t work from our point of view. Our children didn’t take well to having chairs thrown at them and teachers not turning up.

I was in Copenhagen a while ago and I saw two or three kids have an impromptu running race on the pavement and one of the kids won and did an American-football-style celebration. His mother grabbed him by the arm and scolded him for that.

My son’s class did a production of Treasure Island. The teachers rotated the class so that in every scene someone different played Long John Silver or Jack Hawkins or whatever. It made absolute nonsense of any sense of drama or narrative. But again, it was this idea: Everyone should have their turn. Everyone should be treated equally, rather than celebrate one student who was a great singer or actor.

In the same interview, Booth explained why the Scandinavian model could never be implemented in America:

If you want an incredibly equal, socially cohesive society, you definitely lose something by way of individuality, eccentricity, diversity. Often I’m asked, “Could the Nordic template be applied to Britain or America?” And the answer is no. You can’t just hope that people will suddenly become conformist and driven by equality. It doesn’t work that way.

4. Denmark and Sweden have their own social problems

Secular liberals in the United States and Canada are apt to regard Denmark and Sweden as a kind of paradise on earth. Why, they wonder aloud, can’t America be more like Scandinavia?

Guardian reporter Michael Booth painted a very different picture of the Scandinavian countries from the rosy picture we’ve been accustomed to hearing about, in a colorfully worded article titled, Dark lands: the grim truth behind the ‘Scandinavian miracle’ (January 27, 2014).

(a) Something rotten in the state of Denmark?

Here’s what Booth had to say about Denmark, in his report:

Take the Danes, for instance. True, they claim to be the happiest people in the world, but why no mention of the fact they are second only to Iceland when it comes to consuming anti-depressants? …

Why do the Danes score so highly on international happiness surveys? Well, they do have high levels of trust and social cohesion, and do very nicely from industrial pork products, but according to the OECD they also work fewer hours per year than most of the rest of the world. As a result, productivity is worryingly sluggish. How can they afford all those expensively foraged meals and hand-knitted woollens? Simple, the Danes also have the highest level of private debt in the world (four times as much as the Italians, to put it into context; enough to warrant a warning from the IMF), while more than half of them admit to using the black market to obtain goods and services.

Presumably the correlative of this is that Denmark has the best public services? According to the OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment rankings (Pisa), Denmark’s schools lag behind even the UK’s. Its health service is buckling too… According to the World Cancer Research Fund, the Danes have the highest cancer rates on the planet...

Most seriously of all, economic equality – which many believe is the foundation of societal success – is decreasing. According to a report in Politiken this month, the proportion of people below the poverty line has doubled over the last decade. Denmark is becoming a nation divided, essentially, between the places which have a branch of Sticks’n’Sushi (Copenhagen) and the rest. Denmark’s provinces have become a social dumping ground for non-western immigrants, the elderly, the unemployed and the unemployable who live alongside Denmark’s 22m intensively farmed pigs, raised 10 to a pen and pumped full of antibiotics (the pigs, that is).

There’s more. It turns out that one-fifth of Danish adults don’t work and live exclusively on public benefits.

(b) How Sweden’s “nanny state” stifles people’s souls

Booth was similarly unsparing in his depiction of Sweden, in his report:

Anything I say about the Swedes will pale in comparison to their own excoriating self-image. A few years ago, the Swedish Institute of Public Opinion Research asked young Swedes to describe their compatriots. The top eight adjectives they chose were: envious, stiff, industrious, nature loving, quiet, honest, dishonest, xenophobic.

Effectively a one-party state – albeit supported by a couple of shadowy industrialist families – for much of the 20th century, “neutral” Sweden (one of the world largest arms exporters) continues to thrive economically thanks to its distinctive brand of totalitarian modernism, which curbs freedoms, suppresses dissent in the name of consensus, and seems hell-bent on severing the bonds between wife and husband, children and parents, and elderly on their children. Think of it as the China of the north.

Youth unemployment is higher than the UK’s and higher than the EU average; integration is an ongoing challenge; and as with Norway and Denmark, the Swedish right is on the rise…

Ask the Finns and they will tell you that Swedish ultra-feminism has emasculated their men, but they will struggle to drown their sorrows. Their state-run alcohol monopoly stores, the dreaded Systembolaget, were described by Susan Sontag as “part funeral parlour, part back-room abortionist”.

The myriad successes of the Nordic countries are no miracle, they were born of a combination of Lutheran modesty, peasant parsimony, geographical determinism and ruthless pragmatism... These societies function well for those who conform to the collective median, but they aren’t much fun for tall poppies. Schools rein in higher achievers for the sake of the less gifted; “elite” is a dirty word; displays of success, ambition or wealth are frowned upon.

I should mention in passing that not only is the illegitimacy rate in Sweden very high (54%, compared to 51% in Denmark, 55% in Norway and 41% in the U.S.A.), but less than 50% of all Swedes currently agree with the proposition that children need a father and a mother to grow up happily. Not a healthy sign. Sadly, America appears to be following suit: 58% of American adults now say that having a baby outside of marriage is morally acceptable.

5. Sweden also has a shocking record of violating individual liberties

As we have seen, even the Scandinavian countries have their share of social problems. Nevertheless, some readers might be inclined to argue that their problems are not as bad as those which afflict the Anglo-Saxon countries – and especially the United States. America does, however, enjoy one great advantage over Sweden: it is still a free country. Sweden is not.

Freedom of Speech is being steadily eroded, in the name of protecting people from “hate speech”

In a 2014 blog article titled, Freedom Of Speech Is Dying In Sweden, Finnish blogger Johannes Joukahainen paints a grim picture of freedom of speech laws in Sweden:

The key difference in the freedom of speech or expression between the United States and Sweden (as well as many other European countries) is that in the US, regulation of the freedom of speech is very lax when compared to continental European legal systems. While the freedom of speech is not absolute in the United States’ legal system, it is much closer to being almost completely unrestricted than in Europe. European legal systems generally have much tighter laws regarding “incitement to hatred” and “hate speech,” to the extent that in recent years they have been used to silence dissenting opinions all across Europe.

The silencing of opposing views via legal norms is nowhere more obvious than in Sweden, where several laws have been passed to make it incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to legally argue against “special groups” within the society. A law passed in 2002 (2002:800) notably mentions that “expressing disrespect against groups of people with reference to race, color, national origin, ethnicity, confession of faith or sexual origin” can be sentenced to prison for a time of up to four years for inciting hatred.

The word “disrespect” (“missaktning”) is especially problematic, as the term fairly ambiguous. The law was most notably used to sentence a pastor (Åke Green) for comments against homosexuality during a sermon. The Supreme Court later overturned the conviction, as it did not comply with the European Convention of Human Rights, and hence the conviction would have most likely not have been upheld in the European Court.

The wrong kind of opinions can get you ostracized, according to a report by Singaporean doctoral research student Sadhvi Sharma (Sweden is no haven of liberty, Spiked.com, April 2, 2014):

Sweden is typically depicted as a liberal paradise, an evolved and open-minded society where tolerance and equality define public life… This is certainly what I was led to believe when I moved here six months ago.

But take a closer look at Swedish society and a different picture emerges…

On an anecdotal level, I have found that alongside the legal proscription of hate speech, there is also a set of informal rules about what you can and can’t say – the ‘you can’t say that’ moments of Swedish liberal social and cultural life.

You don’t have to be a racist or a homophobe to be shunned; you just have to voice the ‘wrong’ kind of opinions. For instance, you cannot be opposed to gay marriage, or express support for the Swedish Democrats (a far-right party equivalent to the British National Party, but with actual representatives in parliament), without being virtually excommunicated. And if you dare express scepticism about climate change, be prepared for social wrath. Your decency and your moral standing are judged by whether you hold the ‘correct’ views on feminism, on homosexuality, on race, on the environment, on the Israel-Palestine conflict. ‘Incorrect’ positions will see you cast out.

How the Swedish state comes between parents and their children: the sad case of Domenic Johansson

The Swedish state, in its infinite arrogance, behaves as if it were the sole arbiter of children’s rights, and as if parents had to beg the government for the right to be the legal guardians of their own children. The Swedish government has even abducted children from their parents, for the sole “crime” of daring to homeschool them – at a time when it was legal! Domenic Johansson was one of these children. Seven years ago, he was abducted from his parents, Christer and Annie, just as they were about to board a plane for India. Bob Unruh takes up the story for World News Daily:

When the family tried to leave Sweden in 2009 for India, the mother’s homeland, armed police stormed the plane and abducted young Domenic without a warrant or court order. Social services workers claimed he had some cavities in his baby teeth.

Numerous experts and attorneys have described the incident as a brazen example of “state-napping.”

When one court decision was released in Sweden in favor of the parents, government officials kept the child in custody until they were able to get it reversed.

The frustration at one point prompted Christer to take his son during a brief visit and not return him to social workers, resulting in a prison sentence for the father.

Swedish courts eventually terminated the family by severing the parental rights permanently.

Legal experts from around the world have told WND that the pretexts cited to seize Domenic do not stand up to scrutiny, especially because homeschooling was legal in Sweden at the time, and the right to homeschool is guaranteed under multiple human rights treaties.

Domenic Johansson is not alone. WND reports that dozens of families have already fled abroad, including Jonas Himmelstrand, the chief of the Swedish Homeschooling Association, ROHUS, who fled to Finland with his wife and children.

Since then, the Johanssons’ plight has gotten even worse, according to a report on OneNewsNow.com by Michael Haverluck:

Indefinitely extending homeschooler Domenic Johansson’s prohibition from being able to his parents over the past five years, the Swedish Supreme Court rejected what could possibly be his family’s last appeal to reunite with him.

After being taken away from his parents, Christer and Annie Johansson, seven years ago when he was seven years old — and not being allowed to see them at all over the past five years — the homeschool boy, who is now 14, will likely not see his parents again … at least until he’s an adult.

The decision has all but diminished the Johansson’s last glimmer of hope of seeing their son again, as they can now possibly appeal to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), but it has a dismal record when it comes to rulings concerning claims made by homeschoolers.

There is an old saying: “Be careful what you wish for. You just might get what you want.” There are many social liberals who would like to see North America become more like Scandinavia. If that happens – as appears more and more likely, based on current election trends – then we can expect to see America develop into a highly intolerant country where political correctness reigns supreme and where people’s opinions are governed by “group-think.” In such a country, independence of thought will not be prized, and achievement will no longer be valued. The cult of mediocrity will reign. And yes, many people will be “content,” because their government will tell them that they are safe. But contentment is a pale, anemic thing, when compared to the pure and untrammeled joy that comes with freedom, friendship and love of life. The “Scandinavian solution” leads to a society lacking in vitality. If there is a secret to happiness, Latin America sounds like a better place to look for it.

Comments
IE, cf the remarks and links at 92 above: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/philosophy/denmark-its-no-secular-paradise-neither-is-sweden/#comment-603176 and particularly my remarks on the sins of Christendom.I also point to VJT at 87 and 93 as well as several remarks by News. Much wrong has happened, that is an issue for resources to lead reformation (not putting darkness for light and darkness for light) but it is also so that there are thorny issues that defy simplistic yes/no solutions or demands. Lessons do need to be learned and wrongs righted. KF kairosfocus
Hi Aleta, I just had a look at the article you linked to. A few excerpts: "It is the only study to compare same-sex and different-sex parent households with stable, continuously coupled parents and their biological offspring." Previous studies "didn't compensate for the fact that they were comparing children from same-sex couples who were not continuously coupled." My question: isn't it a fact that same-sex couples have a higher break-up rate? The 2010 longitudinal study of children raised by lesbian couples found that they had a higher break-up rate (about double that of the heterosexual parents, if I recall rightly). Complaining about comparing apples and oranges is one thing, but how informative is to compare the very best 10 of farmer A's apples with the best 100 of farmer B's apples? "The current study only looked at lesbian households, because when households were finally matched and controlled for continuous relationships, there were too few male same-sex households." A very revealing fact. "The study did note that lesbian parents seem to exhibit higher levels of parenting stress, which Gartell attributed to perceived homophobia." That's just Gartell's interpretation. I say: stick to the facts. vjtorley
Hi Indiana Effigy, You ask: "Do you consider what happened to these children to be no different than forced conversion?" I thought I had answered this question in my post #93 above. To be clear, my answer is: "No." Indoctrination is morally wrong; however, there is something uniquely evil about doing violence to someone, to make them change their mind. And now I'd like to ask you a question: do you consider indoctrination to be morally wrong in all circumstances? Or do you think there are some opinions which are so obviously true, or whose denial leads to such pernicious social consequences, that it would be morally justifiable, on purely utilitarian grounds, to indoctrinate children in these opinions? Just curious. vjtorley
KF: "IE, you demand a loaded simplistic yes/no, with an accusation in the guise of a question. You refused to seriously address responses that brought out that the circumstances are not as simplistic as you have made out. You have proceeded to trip several red warning flags. On fair comment, those are trollish patterns, not responsible ones, and your evident educational level is well past the level where one could expect that sort of thinking. KF" Your equivocation and avoidance of the question is duly noted. Let me repeat the question. It is simple. And it is not loaded. Trying to avoid the answer by slinging ad-hominems is a cowards move. Do you consider what happened to these children to be no different than forced conversion? I will give you my answer if it will make it easier for you. Yes. See how easy it is? Indiana Effigy
IE, you demand a loaded simplistic yes/no, with an accusation in the guise of a question. You refused to seriously address responses that brought out that the circumstances are not as simplistic as you have made out. You have proceeded to trip several red warning flags. On fair comment, those are trollish patterns, not responsible ones, and your evident educational level is well past the level where one could expect that sort of thinking. KF kairosfocus
KF, all I have asked is for people to acknowledge that what was done to the Indian children for a century was no different than forced conversion. The evidence is there for all to see. But you would rather talk about is some red line, that exists only in your head, that I crossed. I will make it simple for you. A yes or no question. Do you consider what happened to these children to be no different than forced conversion? A yes or no is all that is required. I would welcome answers from News and VJT as well. Who, unlike you, did not respond by attacking me. They were very civil. You could learn much from them. G'day. Indiana Effigy
Aleta, Doing just fine depends crucially on what that is meant for the insider and on how that is projected to the outsider. (And there are sobering studies and reports to the contrary of what is being suggested.) I am still busy locally, so I will just clip this Dominical warning:
Mt 18: 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,[a] it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Temptations to Sin 7 “Woe to the world for temptations to sin![b] For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! [ESV]
Also, Isaiah:
Is 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!
We live in a suicidal, increasingly endarkened, conscience benumbed civilisation. Such does not end well. Which is what Boethius' warning should give us sobering pause about. G'day. KF kairosfocus
IE, it seems you do not wish to recognise the red line you crossed when you responded to a linked discussion of the issue of the sins of Christendom at 92 above with blah blah blah. You have now confirmed your diagnosis as trollish. G'day. KF kairosfocus
I forget what thread the discussion was on, but here's a new study showing that children of same-sex parents do just fine: http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/15/health/health-of-children-with-same-sex-parents/ Aleta
KF: "let me add: blah blah blah..." There is a correlation coefficient of 1 between your use of phrases such as strawman soaked in oil of red herring seasoned with ad-hominem and the irrelevance of what you are talking about. If you want to address the fact that 150,000 Indian children were forcefully removed from their parents, against their parents' will, and indoctrinated into the christian faith (or be punished), I would be glad to hear your words. But you have done nothing but patronize, sermonize and toss out ad-hominems. I am not saying that this practice was official church policy, because it wasn't. But it went on for 100+ years, with the full knowledge and support of the church. Those are the facts. So arguing that it wasn't "forced conversion" because guns weren't held to their heads is just blatant equivocation. The intent of the church and government at the time was noble. They honestly felt that "taking the Indian out of the child" was the best thing for the children. But what they did was morally and ethically wrong. G'day. Indiana Effigy
PPS: I think it is also relevant to put this from Plato on the table:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them.
kairosfocus
IE, we both know and understand the passive aggressive atheism game. I am pointing out that from 92 above a serious set of answers on the sins of Christendom has been on the table from me (as in, follow the links . . . ), and reasonable responses have also been there from VJT and News. Instead of reasonable engagement, we have seen piling on behaviour -- let me add: blah blah blah, a sign that you refuse to listen or read but angrily brush aside in classic passive aggressive behaviour -- that begins to remind me of the current rule of thumb; never apologise to those who will just use it to pile on. You broke a bigtime rule of civility and I am going to the root issue, as you and I both know that the evolutionary materialist atheistical undermining of the IS that grounds OUGHT opens the door to might and manipulation make "right' nihilism. Boethius -- judicially murdered on false accusations -- shows where that ends. So do 100 million and more ghosts from the past 100 years; we know all about the sins of atheism, if you want to play with those matches. Obviously, you cannot deal with that either. Yes, as noted repeatedly and willfully ignored the better to pile on, Christendom, over 2000 years, has its fair share of sins and wrongs to face; which it has resources for reformation to do so with, as it has again and again. When we see one sided litanies of the sins of Christendom, without reckoning with that balance, and then unresponsiveness to reasonable reply, plus piling on, that is a big red flag as to what is really going on. You plainly wish to undermine and silence voices that support the Christian moral heritage in our civilisation, and then to substitute that which has no foundation for morality beyond might and manipulation. Boethius shows where that ends, it never ends well. A lesson paid for in blood. Again and again. So, it is time to say, enough is enough. Beyond a certain point with such behaviour, the right term to use is misanthrope. As in, Robespierre seeking power. KF PS: Let me clip from 1 John and Eph 4, to show some of the resources for reform I speak of:
1 Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [ESV] Eph 4: 17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,[f] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. [ESV]
The struggle of reformation and growth at personal and institutional levels and in the wider community, directly follows from such. kairosfocus
Thanks rhampton for doing searches for Effigy. This way he has more time to cry here Eugen
KF: "IE, it seems you are unaware of the fires you play...blah, blah, blah" And what fires would those be? The ones where an atheist such as myself is appalled by the actions of my government and the church towards several generations of native children when a supposedly good Christian such as yourself is not? That speaks volumes. But if it allows you to sleep better at night to pontificate and sermonize and toss ad hominems at me, fill your boots. G'day. Indiana Effigy
Rhampton7, thank you for this. I was not aware of this apology. Indiana Effigy
Pope apologizes for abuse at native schools CTV.ca News, April 29, 2009 Pope Benedict has said he is sorry for the physical and sexual abuse and "deplorable" conduct at Catholic church-run Canadian residential schools. The Vatican says the pontiff expressed his sorrow and emphasized that "acts of abuse cannot be tolerated" at a meeting Wednesday with representatives of native Canadians. "Given the sufferings that some indigenous children experienced in the Canadian residential school system, the Holy Father expressed his sorrow at the anguish caused by the deplorable conduct of some members of the church and he offered his sympathy and prayerful solidarity," a statement from the Vatican said. Archbishop Gerard Pettipas of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, who attended Wednesday's meeting, says it was an important moment. Until today, the Church as a whole had never apologized for the abuse that aboriginal students suffered at the hands of Catholic missionary congregations. "What we've been trying to do is to bring about healing and reconciliation between the Church, the government of Canada and our First Nations people," he told Canada AM shortly after the meeting. "There was a feeling that despite the apologies that were offered by the oblates and some bishops, that the Catholic Church as a whole has not recognized the part that we played. "As a gesture of reconciliation... it was important to hear from the one person who does speak for the Catholic Church around the world, to hear him say 'I am sorry. I feel for what you people have suffered. We hope that we can turn the page and move toward a better future together.'" Chief Edward John of the Tlazten First Nations says he hopes the apology will help "many people move forward." . . .
rhampton7
IE, it seems you are unaware of the fires you play with and have studiously ignored the response I made at 92 above as well as those of the thread owner and news; and just now there is a remark that tends to distort news and by extension VJT and myself in ways that are strawmannish. The turnabout rhetoric just above fails, and I repeat, Boethius shows what happens when might vs right nihilism prevails in a community and what it costs. Yes Christendom has its many flaws and sins across 2000 years and many have erred and done wrong even in the name of the church or the gospel; that does not negate the power of truth and reformation in both, nor the only sound foundational IS that grounds OUGHT: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. Even, when our progress in the good is flawed and stumbling. So, the much despised Christendom also has in it the means of reformation and a solid foundation for ought. Those who consistently flail at it and make no due balance even in the face of a reasonable response that acknowledges the tension between is and ought in particular cases and/or in general, flag themselves as needing the sort of reminder Boethius provides. Or at any rate, there will be record that warning was given. KF kairosfocus
We are grateful to the survivors, whose courageous witness has touched the heart of the life of our churches. There have been apologies from our churches, yet we know that our apologies are not enough. And so we are grateful as well to the Commissioners of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for their findings and for their clarity about our continuing responsibilities.
Strange, from News's posts, I would have thought that they had nothing to apologize for. goodusername
KF@102, unless you can address the serious issue on the table without resorting to these patronizing sermons, your opinions are not worth anyone's time. G'day. Rhampton7, thank you for this. I was aware that there were some apologies from local churches and this one, in a somewhat backhanded way, appears to be sincere. But after the Truth and Reconciliation report, they weren't left with much choice. But what stands out is that this apology was only signed by the Canadian affiliates of the churches. Are you aware of any apologies from the international leaders of these churches? For example, the Pope? Indiana Effigy
Ottawa – June 2, 2015 The Anglican Church of Canada, The Presbyterian Church in Canada, the Roman Catholic Entities Parties to the Settlement Agreement, The United Church of Canada and the Jesuits of English Canada make the following statement in response to the findings and Calls to Action issued by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada.
It is with gratitude and humility that we are here today to speak together as representatives of churches that participated in the operation of Indian Residential Schools. We are grateful to the Commissioners and staff of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada for the commitment with which they have carried out their mandate, and we are humbled in the knowledge that we continue to share a responsibility to ensure that the task of reconciliation does not end today. Beginning in the 19th century and continuing until the late 1960’s, our churches were partners with the Government of Canada in running Indian Residential Schools. Notwithstanding the good intent and care of many who worked in the Schools, it is clear that Indian Residential Schools, in policy and in practice, were an assault on Indigenous families, culture, language and spiritual traditions, and that great harm was done. We continue to acknowledge and regret our part in that legacy. Those harmed were children, vulnerable, far from their families and communities. The sexual, physical, and emotional abuse they suffered is well-documented. Over the past six years we have, along with the Commission, listened to the experiences of those former students, who are no longer children. They are adults, some very old, who tell heart-breaking stories. We have heard them speak of wounds so deep that healing could not happen, and of damage visited upon their own children. We have also heard them witness to their resilience, and that of their communities, which has made possible many healing journeys. We have heard of friendships formed in the Residential Schools in which students supported one another, sometimes for the rest of their lives. Perhaps most humbling of all, we have heard survivors speak with enormous grace and generosity of teachers and others whose kindness offered some respite from the pain and humiliation that so deeply marked the overall experience of the schools. We are grateful to the survivors, whose courageous witness has touched the heart of the life of our churches. There have been apologies from our churches, yet we know that our apologies are not enough. And so we are grateful as well to the Commissioners of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for their findings and for their clarity about our continuing responsibilities. We acknowledge and welcome the specific calls to action that offer direction to the churches in our continuing commitment to reconciliation. In particular, we are committed to respect Indigenous spiritual traditions in their own right. As individual churches and in shared interfaith and ecumenical initiatives – for example through Kairos, through interfaith groups, and through the Canadian Council of Churches – we will continue to foster learning about and awareness of the reality and legacy of the residential schools, the negative impact of such past teachings as the Doctrine of Discovery, and the new ways forward found in places, such as the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. We will continue our commitment to financial support for community-controlled initiatives in healing, language and cultural revitalization, education and relationship-building, and self-determination. We welcome the Commissioners’ call to the parties to the Indian Residential School Settlement Agreement for a new Covenant of Reconciliation that would renew and expand our shared commitment to the continuing work of reconciliation, and invite others into that work, including new Canadians, who, while they were not part of the historic injustice, are now part of a country in which understanding and addressing that injustice is a national priority for all Canadians. We also welcome wider Calls to Action that include our members as citizens and residents of Canada. There is a crucial need for the kinds of public and governmental initiatives that the Commissioners identify, including the establishment of a National Council of Reconciliation that would continue to hold this work before parliament and the Canadian people. We recognize the need for equity in access to education and health care, and the critical need for new and culturally-appropriate ways of ensuring the welfare of children who are at risk. And we enthusiastically support the call for teaching about the history and legacy of the residential schools in all Canadian schools, and commit ourselves to ensuring that the teaching ministry of our churches also acknowledges these realities. Above all, we welcome the Commissioners’ Calls to Action as providing the basis for a wide and transformative conversation among Canadians about the better future we intend to foster, not just for Indigenous peoples, but for all of us who long to live in a society grounded in right relationships and equity. We will continue to share in the work of healing and reconciliation, respectfully following the leadership of Indigenous communities and leaders, and to offer leadership among non-Indigenous Canadians where that is appropriate. May the Creator guide us as we continue in the work of healing, justice, and right relations for the generations it will take to address that harm “and guide this country on a new and different path”. (Remembering the Children prayer, 2008) Representatives of the Church entities making the joint statement: Archbishop Fred Hiltz Primate, The Anglican Church of Canada The Rev. Dr. Stephen Farris Moderator, The Presbyterian Church in Canada Archbishop Gerard Pettipas President, Catholic Entities Parties to the Indian Residential School Settlement The Right Reverend Gary Paterson Moderator, The United Church of Canada Peter Bisson, SJ Provincial, Jesuits of English Canada
http://www.anglican.ca/tr/response-of-the-churches-to-the-truth-and-reconciliation-commission-of-canada/ rhampton7
IE, The answer continues, in hopes that at the last some spark may catch and burst into awakening: _______________________ >> IV. 'Dost thou understand?' she asks. Do my words sink into thy mind? Or art thou dull "as the ass to the sound of the lyre"? Why dost thou weep? Why do tears stream from thy eyes? '"Speak out, hide it not in thy heart." If thou lookest for the physician's help, thou must needs disclose thy wound.' Then I, gathering together what strength I could, began: 'Is there still need of telling? Is not the cruelty of fortune against me plain enough? Doth not the very aspect of this place move thee? Is this the library, the room which thou hadst chosen as thy constant resort in my home, the place where we so often sat together and held discourse of all things in heaven and earth? Was my garb and mien like this when I explored with thee nature's hid secrets, and thou didst trace for me with thy wand the courses of the stars, moulding the while my character and the whole conduct of my life after the pattern of the celestial order? Is this the recompense of my obedience? Yet thou hast enjoined by Plato's mouth the maxim, "that states would be happy, either if philosophers ruled them, or if it should so befall that their rulers would turn philosophers." By his mouth likewise thou didst point out this imperative reason why philosophers should enter public life, to wit, lest, if the reins of government be left to unprincipled and profligate citizens, trouble and destruction should come upon the good. Following these precepts, I have tried to apply in the business of public administration the principles which I learnt from thee in leisured seclusion. Thou art my witness and that divinity who hath implanted thee in the hearts of the wise, that I brought to my duties no aim but zeal for the public good. For this cause I have become involved in bitter and irreconcilable feuds, and, as happens inevitably, if a man holds fast to the independence of conscience, I have had to think nothing of giving offence to the powerful in the cause of justice. How often have I encountered and balked Conigastus in his assaults on the fortunes of the weak? How often have I thwarted Trigguilla, steward of the king's household, even when his villainous schemes were as good as accomplished? How often have I risked my position and influence to protect poor wretches from the false charges innumerable with which they were for ever being harassed by the greed and license of the barbarians? No one has ever drawn me aside from justice to oppression. When ruin was overtaking the fortunes of the provincials through the combined pressure of private rapine and public taxation, I grieved no less than the sufferers. When at a season of grievous scarcity a forced sale, disastrous as it was unjustifiable, was proclaimed, and threatened to overwhelm Campania with starvation, I embarked on a struggle with the prætorian prefect in the public interest, I fought the case at the king's judgment-seat, and succeeded in preventing the enforcement of the sale. I rescued the consular Paulinus from the gaping jaws of the court bloodhounds, who in their covetous hopes had already made short work of his wealth. To save Albinus, who was of the same exalted rank, from the penalties of a prejudged charge, I exposed myself to the hatred of Cyprian, the informer. 'Thinkest thou I had laid up for myself store of enmities enough? Well, with the rest of my countrymen, at any rate, my safety should have been assured, since my love of justice had left me no hope of security at court. Yet who was it brought the charges by which I have been struck down? Why, one of my accusers is Basil, who, after being dismissed from the king's household, was driven by his debts to lodge an information against my name. There is Opilio, there is Gaudentius, men who for many and various offences the king's sentence had condemned to banishment; and when they declined to obey, and sought to save themselves by taking sanctuary, the king, as soon as he heard of it, decreed that, if they did not depart from the city of Ravenna within a prescribed time, they should be branded on the forehead and expelled. What would exceed the rigour of this severity? And yet on that same day these very men lodged an information against me, and the information was admitted. Just Heaven! had I deserved this by my way of life? Did it make them fit accusers that my condemnation was a foregone conclusion? Has fortune no shame—if not at the accusation of the innocent, at least for the vileness of the accusers? Perhaps thou wonderest what is the sum of the charges laid against me? I wished, they say, to save the senate. But how? I am accused of hindering an informer from producing evidence to prove the senate guilty of treason. Tell me, then, what is thy counsel, O my mistress. Shall I deny the charge, lest I bring shame on thee? But I did wish it, and I shall never cease to wish it. Shall I admit it? Then the work of thwarting the informer will come to an end. Shall I call the wish for the preservation of that illustrious house a crime? Of a truth the senate, by its decrees concerning me, has made it such! But blind folly, though it deceive itself with false names, cannot alter the true merits of things, and, mindful of the precept of Socrates, I do not think it right either to keep the truth concealed or allow falsehood to pass. But this, however it may be, I leave to thy judgment and to the verdict of the discerning. Moreover, lest the course of events and the true facts should be hidden from posterity, I have myself committed to writing an account of the transaction. 'What need to speak of the forged letters by which an attempt is made to prove that I hoped for the freedom of Rome? Their falsity would have been manifest, if I had been allowed to use the confession of the informers themselves, evidence which has in all matters the most convincing force. Why, what hope of freedom is left to us? Would there were any! I should have answered with the epigram of Canius when Caligula declared him to have been cognisant of a conspiracy against him. "If I had known," said he, "thou shouldst never have known." Grief hath not so blunted my perceptions in this matter that I should complain because impious wretches contrive their villainies against the virtuous, but at their achievement of their hopes I do exceedingly marvel. For evil purposes are, perchance, due to the imperfection of human nature; that it should be possible for scoundrels to carry out their worst schemes against the innocent, while God beholdeth, is verily monstrous. For this cause, not without reason, one of thy disciples asked, "If God exists, whence comes evil? Yet whence comes good, if He exists not?" However, it might well be that wretches who seek the blood of all honest men and of the whole senate should wish to destroy me also, whom they saw to be a bulwark of the senate and all honest men. But did I deserve such a fate from the Fathers also? Thou rememberest, methinks—since thou didst ever stand by my side to direct what I should do or say—thou rememberest, I say, how at Verona, when the king, eager for the general destruction, was bent on implicating the whole senatorial order in the charge of treason brought against Albinus, with what indifference to my own peril I maintained the innocence of its members, one and all. Thou knowest that what I say is the truth, and that I have never boasted of my good deeds in a spirit of self-praise. For whenever a man by proclaiming his good deeds receives the recompense of fame, he diminishes in a measure the secret reward of a good conscience. What issues have overtaken my innocency thou seest. Instead of reaping the rewards of true virtue, I undergo the penalties of a guilt falsely laid to my charge—nay, more than this; never did an open confession of guilt cause such unanimous severity among the assessors, but that some consideration, either of the mere frailty of human nature, or of fortune's universal instability, availed to soften the verdict of some few. Had I been accused of a design to fire the temples, to slaughter the priests with impious sword, of plotting the massacre of all honest men, I should yet have been produced in court, and only punished on due confession or conviction. Now for my too great zeal towards the senate I have been condemned to outlawry and death, unheard and undefended, at a distance of near five hundred miles away.[C] Oh, my judges, well do ye deserve that no one should hereafter be convicted of a fault like mine! 'Yet even my very accusers saw how honourable was the charge they brought against me, and, in order to overlay it with some shadow of guilt, they falsely asserted that in the pursuit of my ambition I had stained my conscience with sacrilegious acts. And yet thy spirit, indwelling in me, had driven from the chamber of my soul all lust of earthly success, and with thine eye ever upon me, there could be no place left for sacrilege. For thou didst daily repeat in my ear and instil into my mind the Pythagorean maxim, "Follow after God." It was not likely, then, that I should covet the assistance of the vilest spirits, when thou wert moulding me to such an excellence as should conform me to the likeness of God. Again, the innocency of the inner sanctuary of my home, the company of friends of the highest probity, a father-in-law revered at once for his pure character and his active beneficence, shield me from the very suspicion of sacrilege. Yet—atrocious as it is—they even draw credence for this charge from thee; I am like to be thought implicated in wickedness on this very account, that I am imbued with thy teachings and stablished in thy ways. So it is not enough that my devotion to thee should profit me nothing, but thou also must be assailed by reason of the odium which I have incurred. Verily this is the very crown of my misfortunes, that men's opinions for the most part look not to real merit, but to the event; and only recognise foresight where Fortune has crowned the issue with her approval. Whereby it comes to pass that reputation is the first of all things to abandon the unfortunate. I remember with chagrin how perverse is popular report, how various and discordant men's judgments. This only will I say, that the most crushing of misfortune's burdens is, that as soon as a charge is fastened upon the unhappy, they are believed to have deserved their sufferings. I, for my part, who have been banished from all life's blessings, stripped of my honours, stained in repute, am punished for well-doing. 'And now methinks I see the villainous dens of the wicked surging with joy and gladness, all the most recklessly unscrupulous threatening a new crop of lying informations, the good prostrate with terror at my danger, every ruffian incited by impunity to new daring and to success by the profits of audacity, the guiltless not only robbed of their peace of mind, but even of all means of defence>> _________________ We have been there before, and it does not end well. Beginning to see that the line between good and evil passes not between classes and nations but through the individual human heart? Beginning to recognise the futility of assailing sound philosophy, sound theology and sound religion, by way of well poisoning and atmosphere poisoning? Beginning to see that if you fail to respond appropriately to a civil and balanced acknowledgement of wrongs and the to the principles of reformation then you leave only a fight without Marquis of Queensbury rules? Nihilism, in one word. That is what we must name and exorcise, if we are to be men of civil temperament and not brute beasts playing nihilistic agit prop games and not caring what happens when one burns down civilising influences. KF PS: EZ, some of my ancestors were slaves, some were indentured servants, some overseers and some masters. All, eventually tamed by the gospel that you would dismiss and discard. Tamed to the point where a certain name sits above a certain parliament written in martyr's blood, descended from master and slave alike. Blood unjustly spilled for standing up with unwelcome truth spoken from Christian concern to unreasonable domineering power. kairosfocus
KF #99 I don't understand your response at all. How did your ancestors arrive in the Western Hemisphere by the way? ellazimm
KF: "PPS: Let us clear the air, by restoring tone...[followed by sermonizing]" What about not "sermonizing" don't you understand? Do you really think that your tone filled patronizing sermons restores tone? And how does this change the fact that Indian children in Canada were treated in the way they were, with the church taking an active and willing part. And, correct me if I am wrong (I might be), the church has never offered an apology for their complicity in this action. Indiana Effigy
PPS: Let us clear the air, by restoring tone: >>II. 'But the time,' said she, 'calls rather for healing than for lamentation.' Then, with her eyes bent full upon me, 'Art thou that man,' she cries, 'who, erstwhile fed with the milk and reared upon the nourishment which is mine to give, had grown up to the full vigour of a manly spirit? And yet I had bestowed such armour on thee as would have proved an invincible defence, hadst thou not first cast it away. Dost thou know me? Why art thou silent? Is it shame or amazement that hath struck thee dumb? Would it were shame; but, as I see, a stupor hath seized upon thee.' Then, when she saw me not only answering nothing, but mute and utterly incapable of speech, she gently touched my breast with her hand, and said: 'There is no danger; these are the symptoms of lethargy, the usual sickness of deluded minds. For awhile he has forgotten himself; he will easily recover his memory, if only he first recognises me. And that he may do so, let me now wipe his eyes that are clouded with a mist of mortal things.' Thereat, with a fold of her robe, she dried my eyes all swimming with tears. SONG III. The Mists dispelled. Then the gloom of night was scattered, Sight returned unto mine eyes. So, when haply rainy Caurus Rolls the storm-clouds through the skies, Hidden is the sun; all heaven Is obscured in starless night. But if, in wild onset sweeping, Boreas frees day's prisoned light, All suddenly the radiant god outstreams, And strikes our dazzled eyesight with his beams. III. Even so the clouds of my melancholy were broken up. I saw the clear sky, and regained the power to recognise the face of my physician. Accordingly, when I had lifted my eyes and fixed my gaze upon her, I beheld my nurse, Philosophy, whose halls I had frequented from my youth up. 'Ah! why,' I cried, 'mistress of all excellence, hast thou come down from on high, and entered the solitude of this my exile? Is it that thou, too, even as I, mayst be persecuted with false accusations?' 'Could I desert thee, child,' said she, 'and not lighten the burden which thou hast taken upon thee through the hatred of my name, by sharing this trouble? Even forgetting that it were not lawful for Philosophy to leave companionless the way of the innocent, should I, thinkest thou, fear to incur reproach, or shrink from it, as though some strange new thing had befallen? Thinkest thou that now, for the first time in an evil age, Wisdom hath been assailed by peril? Did I not often in days of old, before my servant Plato lived, wage stern warfare with the rashness of folly? In his lifetime, too, Socrates, his master, won with my aid the victory of an unjust death. And when, one after the other, the Epicurean herd, the Stoic, and the rest, each of them as far as in them lay, went about to seize the heritage he left, and were dragging me off protesting and resisting, as their booty, they tore in pieces the garment which I had woven with my own hands, and, clutching the torn pieces, went off, believing that the whole of me had passed into their possession. And some of them, because some traces of my vesture were seen upon them, were destroyed through the mistake of the lewd multitude, who falsely deemed them to be my disciples. It may be thou knowest not of the banishment of Anaxagoras, of the poison draught of Socrates, nor of Zeno's torturing, because these things happened in a distant country; yet mightest thou have learnt the fate of Arrius, of Seneca, of Soranus, whose stories are neither old nor unknown to fame. These men were brought to destruction for no other reason than that, settled as they were in my principles, their lives were a manifest contrast to the ways of the wicked. So there is nothing thou shouldst wonder at, if on the seas of this life we are tossed by storm-blasts, seeing that we have made it our chiefest aim to refuse compliance with evil-doers. And though, maybe, the host of the wicked is many in number, yet is it contemptible, since it is under no leadership, but is hurried hither and thither at the blind driving of mad error. And if at times and seasons they set in array against us, and fall on in overwhelming strength, our leader draws off her forces into the citadel while they are busy plundering the useless baggage. But we from our vantage ground, safe from all this wild work, laugh to see them making prize of the most valueless of things, protected by a bulwark which aggressive folly may not aspire to reach.'>> kairosfocus
Starting in the 1870s and closing in 1996, over 150,000 First Nations, Inuit and Métis children were sent to residential schools across the country, where they were banned from using their own languages and often subjected to physical and sexual abuse.
Were the descendants of European immigrants subject to such denigration until 1996 in Canada? Why is anyone trying to excuse or 'apologise' for this treatment? Denyse, when did your family migrate to Canada? Do you think their claim to land that once belonged to generations upon generations of native north americans superseded the natives? My ancestors emigrated to Wisconsin in the mid-19th century. I don't know what legal justifications were given for them to be granted acres upon acres of farm land. I can't undo the past. But I'm not going to pretend it was for the best for the peoples who had been there for centuries. The Americas were conquered, pure and simple. The exploits of the Christian Spanish conquistadors would make any caring person cringe in repulsion. All in all, it was a damn dirty business. ellazimm
KF: "It is clear to me that you have a fundamental hostility problem." The only hostility I have is towards mischaracterizing the truth. Feel free to provide evidence that demonstrates that what I said is incorrect. If you can do this without ad hominems and sermonizing (as News has demonstrated is possible) I will certainly engage in discussion. If not, G'day. IE. Indiana Effigy
IE, I passed back again to see the onward developments. It is clear to me that you have a fundamental hostility problem. In my view, sufficient has been pointed out or to for the reasonable person. G'day. KF PS: It strikes me those with an itch on such matters would find Boethius' Consolation of Phil useful reading, noting his unjust death sentence as context, esp -- as Dembski clips aptly:
In his Consolation of Philosophy, Boethius states the following paradox: “If God exists, whence evil? But whence good, if God does not exist?” . . .
I 'spect there is a fundamental resentment out there that the Christian tradition has resources to address deep moral dilemmas and challenges of a magnitude we had better pray we never face. That seems to lurk behind all too many well poisoning, heart hardening attempts. Link: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14328/14328-h/14328-h.htm kairosfocus
News, your interpretation is just a sanitation of what happened. The compulsory education act didn't physically remove generations of people of European descent from their communities and families for ten months of the year. They received their educations in their communities. Were kids of European descent punished for speaking their home language in the school yard? Were they punished if their religion was anything other than Christian? Were they denied basic medical attention when tuberculosis ran through their community schools? Indiana Effigy
Indiana Effigy at 90 (but more for anyone likely to listen): There was no simple solution to the problem of integrating stone age cultures rapidly into the steel age. (Who knows? Luck may improve in the digital age!) Compulsory education acts required that all children, even in remote areas, go to school. Schooling in western Canada was only available in English. Churches were the only available group to provide people who would live and work in a harsh northern environment. Many individuals were underqualified or unfit but the only thing of which I can be quite certain is this: Detractors today would have a way better case if generations of natives were illiterate and not fluent in English, due to some alternative government policy. Unfortunately, the grievance industry is making a fortune out of the sorts of claims IE advances. But almost none of that will help native peoples. Only integration into the larger society would actually help them (though that is not the grievance industry's interests). In Canada (which does NOT see itself as a melting pot), there is much less risk of simple assimilation and cultural loss than integration might entail in some places. In plain English: Most of the problems of many reserves would be best solved by not living there. Cf. Attawapiskat. But it is not politically correct to say that. The reserves are cash cows for the social justice industry. Historical note, for any interested: Natives were not the only people affected by compulsory education acts. My father, 97 next month, recalled the truant officer having to round up the children of immigrants from Europe who were convinced that book learning was a waste of time when there was land to till. Girls, they believed, should just learn to help out at home anyway, until they get married. And then thy can help their mothers-in-law. And so forth. My father's father was the local schoolteacher, and that sort of thing used to drive him crazy. And Grandpa was right. He could not have foreseen the mechanization of farming post-WWII, which resulted in swarms of (literate) kids heading for the cities for jobs. But he did have the right instincts. News
Indiana Effigy, There is a difference between indoctrination (which many Canadian children may well have been subjected to) and forced conversion. In the former, an attempt is made to control the victim's thought processes; in the latter, the threat of violence is employed to change the victim's mind. Both practices are fundamentally immoral, but the former is not violent, and cannot accurately be described as forceful. Of course, the act of removing a child from his/her home involves some degree of force, which is clearly wrong (unless, of course, the child is being abused by his/her parents, which was not the case in the instance that we are discussing). What you fail to mention, however, is that it was not the churches, but the (secular) Canadian government's Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, that removed about 150,000 children from their homes from 1876 to 1996. What the churches did was school them and attempt to Christianize them. Whether they actually engaged in systematic indoctrination - in the way that Scientologists do, for example - is open to question. I'd want to see evidence for that. Even if it were true, there is nothing in Catholic (or Anglican, or Methodist) teaching which justifies the indoctrination of children. On the Christian view, parents have a duty to instruct their children in the truth and tell them about God's redemption of the human race through Jesus' saving death on the cross. And those parents may send their children to schools which continue this godly work of instruction. However, instruction is not the same as thought control. Telling children that there is a God Who loves them, and Who personally saved each and every one of them by living among us as a man and dying for us, 2,000 years ago, is not child abuse. (And I might add that neither the Catholic Church nor the Anglican Church nor the United Church of Canada has ever taught that unbaptized children are punished with eternal torments in Hell, so don't try that one.) I might add that the Catholic Church's foremost theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas, maintained that parents have a natural right to bring up their children in the religion of their choice, even if it is a badly mistaken one. He also wrote that "it would be contrary to natural justice, if a child, before coming to the use of reason, were to be taken away from its parents’ custody, or anything done it against its parents’ wish." That's about as clear as you can get. Moreover, the Vatican has officially deplored the abuse suffered by indigenous children in the Canadian Residential School system at the hands of some members of the Church. Finally, please don't confuse the doctrinal teachings of a church with the misguided actions of some of its members (including clergy). And I repeat: the Bible does not condone indoctrination or forced conversion. vjtorley
H'mm: Passing by, noticed the toxic side track and how the lack of balance in the face of a responsible remark or two by VJT and News inadvertently reveals thoughts and intents. Christendom has its fair share of sins across 2000 years, but recognises them as such and as to be turned from; that is, the system soberly addresses finite, fallible, fallen and struggling people with hope for repentance, renewal and reformation . . . which are severe but all too needed blessings. It is always instructive to ask, what grounds that sense of moral responsibility above and beyond might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth' etc and what happens when morality is ceded to those who adhere to systems of thought -- such as evolutionary materialism -- that inevitably end in such amorality and radical relativism. In a nutshell, it predictably does not end well, and we would be well advised to bear such in mind. KF kairosfocus
Full Truth and Reconciliation Commission report to be published by McGill-Queen's University Press CBC, December 10, 2015 The Truth and Reconciliation Commission was established in 2008, with a mandate to investigate and report on what happened in Indian Residential Schools. Starting in the 1870s and closing in 1996, over 150,000 First Nations, Inuit and Métis children were sent to residential schools across the country, where they were banned from using their own languages and often subjected to physical and sexual abuse.
Two primary objectives of the residential school system were to remove and isolate children from the influence of their homes, families, traditions and cultures, and to assimilate them into the dominant culture. These objectives were based on the assumption Aboriginal cultures and spiritual beliefs were inferior and unequal. Indeed, some sought, as it was infamously said, “to kill the Indian in the child.” Today, we recognize that this policy of assimilation was wrong, has caused great harm, and has no place in our country. Prime Minister Stephen Harper, official apology, June 11, 2008
See also: Anglican Church of Canada: Truth and Reconciliation rhampton7
News: "Indiana Effigy at 84: There was no forced conversion in Canada, so far as I know, if Robert means that people were forced at gunpoint or something." What would you call it then? Children removed from the family against the parents' will. Forced to be taught by priests and nuns against their wills. Punished if they speak their native language or talk about their family beliefs. Thousands of children died in their "care". I would call that forced conversion. Or child abuse. Indiana Effigy
Indiana Effigy at 84: There was no forced conversion in Canada, so far as I know, if Robert means that people were forced at gunpoint or something. The problem was that native religions, as practised at the time of the European migrations, ceased to be tenable. The incoming culture was well-organized and mostly Christian, so adaptation to modern life meant adaptation to Christianity. Many native communities are somewhat syncretistic about it to this day. The race grievance industry holds that Europeans destroyed native culture. But the trouble is, steel age cultures always have that effect on stone age cultures. Languages spoken by hundreds of millions have that effect on languages spoken by a few thousand. Slavery, massacres, and such largely didn't happen here but everything that must necessarily happen did. The biggest problem for native people is that it is hard for them to get free of the conditions imposed on them by those who want them to keep their traditional culture. If I was expected to live the way people did in seventh century Ireland, I'd be in as big a fix as they are. Just one person's view (but I went to school with native kids and my birth province is approaching half native. ).- d. News
Hi VJT, I noted that none of your links (unless I missed it) mentioned the largest forced conversion that occurred in Canada well into the 1960s. For several decades native children were removed from their parents and raised in residential schools. This was done with the willing and active participation of the church. Thousands and thousands of children were forced to learn Christianity and punished if they spoke their native language. The result was several generations of natives who did not fit in with their ancestral culture and were not accepted in the Canadian culture. Indiana Effigy
Hi Indiana Effigy, The Bible does not support forced conversions. Mark 6:10-11: And He [Jesus] said to them [his apostles], "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." 1 Tim 5:22: "Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin." And here's what the 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia says: "Credere voluntatis est, to believe depends upon the free will, says St. Thomas (II-II:10:8), and the minister of baptism, before administering the sacrament, is obliged to ask the question, 'Wilt thou be baptized'? And only after having received the answer, 'I will', may he proceed with the sacred rite." The history of the Catholic Church regarding forced conversions is far from perfect, however, as this article shows. On the history of Canadian natives and how some of them came to embrace Christianity, see here and here and here. vjtorley
Ellazimm: "Robert Byers’ attention is elsewhere." Did he see an image of JC in his grilled cheese sandwich again? Indiana Effigy
Robert Byers' attention is elsewhere. Too bad, it would be interesting to see how he responded to our queries. ellazimm
I am interested in Robert's opinion on the following questions. 1) were natives in Canada forcibly converted to Christianity in huge numbers? 2) does the bible condone or encourage forced conversion? 3) does Robert condone or encourage forced conversion? Indiana Effigy
Robert #81
People who fish in the sea never claim the sea as theit territory. its meaningless when one moves over the land only for some resource.
Nations do have territorial waters though which are theirs to control. Have you looked at the structures at Mesa Verde? They were built the way they were to protect against attack. From other native American tribes. As for the rest . . . You can arbitrary declare that some other group of people don't share your method of land distribution and then say it's fair to push them out. By introducing European-style land ownership our ancestors took away the native americans hunting and fishing grounds. The food was taken out of their mouths. How is that moral? By your logic all hunter-gatherer tribes can be displaced and the sources of their livelihood taken away. In England most villages had common land that was available for all the locals to use for their animals. That was eventually changed but it took legislation, not just someone coming in and claiming the right to occupy it. Private land ownership is a fairly recent innovation by historical standards. You should take some time to study it. On another thread you didn't seem to really understand the development of math and science . . . perhaps lots of historical reading is in order. ellazimm
Robert, let me see if I understand your position. Because Indians did not have the same concept of land ownership as Europeans did, it was OK to displace them from land they had lived on for 10,000 years. Given that logic, it would be completely legal for a country that only allows for state ownership of land to take land in another country as long as it is privately owned. You do realize that there was a large population of natives when the Europeans first arrived. They had their own civilization, they farmed, they fished. They had their own wars. The way that the natives were (and are) treated in Canada was deplorable. Forced from their lands and forcibly converted to Christianity. Indiana Effigy
ellazimm I said it minor cases in minor areas there was a actual claim for land. Yet even there it meant very little. in fact they built wherever they wanted. Indians never fought for land but sometimes hunting areas but only for hunting. not real estate. Anybody in the world had the right to settle and occupy N America. it was free land. Still in nature as John locke would say. People who fish in the sea never claim the sea as theit territory. its meaningless when one moves over the land only for some resource. So yes we had every right to occupy and take possession of the land. Then contracts later. Robert Byers
IE, Pardon but I need to be direct on the rhetorical effect of how you spoke, given that my context is that there is a serious problem of what dares not be said on this matter. . The name for that tactic is the mixed message. Say your point then cover it with a softening contrary; the in group chuckle and how dare you object to the steel fist, it is in a velvet glove. What counts is the hard point, just like with the deliberate "freudian slip." I suggest, instead, deal with the issue: at no point have I said or suggested that people who differ with me are therefore nihilistic. Instead I took time to identify a specific longstanding worldview that haunts our civilisation which is indeed nhilistic. Demonstrably so, as was shown in outline. It is part of the ongoing falling apart of our civilisation that has to be recognised and rolled back. I still think our civilisation is worth fighting for, given the alternatives. Or have you taken a moment to look at the mini steel-covered dungeon cells in the hot desert ground used to imprison Yazidi women captured and turned into sex slaves by ISIS? http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/12/15/photos-dungeons-islamic-state-uses-yazidi-sex-slaves/ That is what we are dealing with. KF PS: Notice, you have yet to engage the substantial issue adequately. I suggest you would be well advised to shift tone. kairosfocus
IE: "Again,falsely declaring those who disagree with you to be nihilist radicals is not encouraging open and honest discussion."... I hope that you take this correction in the positive manner that I intend it. KF: Your attempt to trivialise the substantial matter, personalise and attack the man instead of addressing the issue come straight out of Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals." Obviously you are incapable of having a civil discussion with someone who disagrees with you without resorting to personal attacks. Life is far too short to continue to attempt to have a discussion with someone with a pathology such as yours. From now on I will simply scroll past any of your comments, and not respond to any comments you make towards me. I wish you well, but your manner of discourse is infantile and needs significant improvement. IE. Indiana Effigy
IE, Pardon but the issue is major media, punditry and statesmen, not some random anonymous internet objector. Major strategic framework documents for a 100 year civilisation-/ settlement- jihad global subjugation strategy were recovered by policing agencies; one was actually part of a major terrorism funding trial. They are material to understanding geostrategic issues for our time. In a sane world, they would be anchor points for public discussion of the IslamIST threat and strategy. Instead, they are seldom if ever mentioned or referred to in such deliberations or public discussions. Red warning flag on our civilisation's suicidal mentality. Your attempt to trivialise the substantial matter, personalise and attack the man instead of addressing the issue come straight out of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. Talk about a Red-Green, Black Flag Army alliance of ruin. (Do you know what the Black Flag Army Hadith says, and how it relates to what is going on on the ground? The linked Gharqad tree Hadith? What a hadith is, and how these relate to the way IslamISTS and other Muslims understand and apply the Quran? The 318th anniversary less one day that Sept 11 2001 marked? Why there is a constellation in the skies named after a Polish king, or actually his shield? What historically anchored message that sent to the IslamISTS and how that ties in with the two Hadiths? If you cannot instantly recognise these things, you lack key background, and reflect what has NOT been properly discussed in major media for 15 years.) Did you even take five minutes to Google the titles of the documents, and then a couple of hours to read, ponder and reflect? Not likely, given your rhetorical reaction. A little more than points scoring rhetoric and let's deride those ID-iots is on the table, I am afraid. As for a material slice of the current refugees, it seems you did not notice that this includes the cells involved in the recent attacks in Paris and Brussels. I suggest you also go look up the history of the Germanic tribal settlements in the Roman Empire and its consequences. The history of the Americas in the past 500 years also has a few pointers, as even descendants of Amerindians who identify with our civilisation point out. The real question is, do we have a civilisation worth defending? If so, appropriate measures are indicated, and it would be sensible to look to historic solutions that worked for dealing with conflicts involving ruthless, genocidal expansionists and those fleeing their depredations. Ignoring the fact that a couple of squadrons of A10's properly applied early would have seen off ISIS and certainly would have blocked the Iraq invasion by same -- compare the unmolested convoys of technicos invading Iraq with the devastation of Hussein's convoys in 1991 -- a stabilising intervention and backed rollback would have done wonders. Refugees should be accommodated close to point of origin and resettled as soon as possible. Contrast the Jews of the ME with the Palestinian Arabs kept in refugee camps to create a running sore to see the point. Contrast any number of other refugee resettlements in Europe and Asia in the aftermath of WW2. As for nihilist radicals, FYI, it is a long settled matter that evolutionary materialism is inherently amoral and radically relativist leading to destabilisation of law, morality, a sense of comity in communities and lends itself to power hungry factions and chaos then breakdown and tyranny. Above at 11, I clipped Plato on this c 360 BC. (Something you studiously ignored.) Indeed, it goes further, evolutionary materialism radically undermines the basis for understanding that we are responsibly free and rational, is in fact self-falsifying by way of self referential incoherence on the reasoning, knowing mind and so also opens the door to nihilistic manipulation and marches of absurd folly rooted in the utterly ill-advised perception that might and manipulation make right, truth and wisdom etc. Examples, sadly, are increasingly legion all around us. That is the context in which our civilisation is becoming de-moralised, fatally undermining the goodwill, honour, sense of our civilisation being worth facing long odds to defend and heart-deep history anchored commitment that are needed for long term survival. I suspect that decadence already explains a good slice of the demographic collapse that is already in progress. No wonder the vultures are visibly circling and more are coming from afar. Time to wake up before it is fatally too late. KF kairosfocus
mohammadnursyamsu #75
The USA is more focused on happiness, while Europe, and most of the rest of the world, is more focused on doing their “best”.
Is that why the murder rate and the rate of incarceration are so much higher in America?
The emotional development of Europeans is generally very infantile, like most Americans wouldn’t believe.
Take a look at this chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate You can rearrange it by the different columns. If you pick Homicides, descending you'll find the USA much higher than any European country. If you pick Suicides, descending you'll find the USA higher than any other country. Take a look at this chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate You can also arrange this one by column. Try (murder) Rate, descending. The USA pops in at 115, higher than all European countries except Lithuania and Russia. Arrange by Count, descending. The USA pops in between Russia and China for the number of people murdered Russia's murder rate is much higher, it's not a nice place. But China's rate is small, it's only because the population is so big that the number of murders is close to the USA. I live in the UK. For the listed year there were less than 700 murders in the UK, for the USA there were over 12,000. Notice too (on the smaller chart) that the murder rates in the Americas and Africa are more than double that of the world as a whole. And Europe, Asia and Oceania are all about 3 murders per 100,000 population. It's the Western Hemisphere and Africa that pull up the world average. I lived in America for the first 39 years of my life, I'll never be moving back. The fact that Donald Trump is taken seriously by anyone is not even funny, it's scary. ellazimm
Robert #74 You do realise that the Native Americans used to fight amongst themselves a lot for territory? And that some tribes (like the Anasazi a while ago and the Pueblo more recently) built permanent structures which can still be seen. Mesa Verde in Colorado is one of the most famous sites. And you do know that some tribes did fight against the incursions by white people? It seems your attitude is: our style of life was 'better' so we get to push them out. Nice. ellazimm
The USA is more focused on happiness, while Europe, and most of the rest of the world, is more focused on doing their "best". The emotional development of Europeans is generally very infantile, like most Americans wouldn't believe. mohammadnursyamsu
IE There were never native americans. They were very independent Indian tribes(called nations by europeans). they did not own n America. in fact they owned nothing as they had no contracts between each other about land ownership. It was free land for everyone. Possibly a valley was claimed but in reality land meant nothing to such tiny populations. no more then people claim the sea for ourselves. They moved about. they owned nothing or little. They had no right to keep out any people group on earth. Europeans were just more people groups coming from the east. The brit or fRench colonists never immigrated to other mens homes. it was free land. In fact in cases where europeans bought land it was an absurdity to iNdians. It wasn't theirs to sell. N america was 99% empty wilderness. so Brits etc never immigrated but only settled a wilderness no different then if no one was here at all. S o my ancestors were never immigrants to N america as it never existed to immigrate to. All my links immigrated to A british possession or a canadian possession. A real civilization and real moral claim to land. Robert Byers
KF: "The silencing and/or marginalisation of truth on these matters is a sadly telling sign." Whenever someone disagrees with you, or has a differing viewpoint, they are dismissed as silencing and/or marginalizing the truth. Do you never admit that the truth may lie somewhere between the two views? Or maybe that both views are wrong? This approach does not encourage open and honest discussion. "I have no doubt on what happened in Paris and Brussels etc that a material slice of the current refugees are illegal combattants involved in a ruthless war." What is a material slice? 0.01%? 1%? 5%? There is no doubt that a very small percentage of refugees are not here as legitimate refugees. As has been the case with all waves of immigration and refugees since the beginning of time. Should we ban all immigration and refugees because of it? Of course not. For the most part, immigration and the acceptance of refugees is a net benefit to the country accepting them. It certainly introduces challenges, but that is no reason to refuse them entry. "Especially when at the same time various nihilist radicals are pushing agendas that undermine the committed goodwill that is the foundation of long term national survival." Again,falsely declaring those who disagree with you to be nihilist radicals is not encouraging open and honest discussion. You often have very good ideas and arguments, but your way of presenting them in a civil fashion could use serious improvement. I hope that you take this correction in the positive manner that I intend it. I hope that you have a peaceful weekend. Indiana Effigy
EZ, I am not defending RB, who has his own serious problems that led to his banning . . . he came back in the context of an amnesty. Obviously, many contributed to where we are today -- and I still face the local stuff so I will only v selectively comment. Pivotally, there is a group of 800 lb gorillas tearing up the room. That is my focus, it is why an intended brief comment above is longer than I thought initially it would be. Later. KF kairosfocus
KF #70 I was concerned that Robert was exhibiting a rather blatant double standard. I'll be interested to see what he says. Aren't you concerned that he doesn't think anyone outside of the 'Anglo-American' group contributed anything to civilisation or science? ellazimm
EZ, it is not so simple, though much wrong was done in the past and we now have to reckon with both settled populations and a new history and geostrategic balance. Many Canadians and Americans etc will be descendants of Amerindians, French and English, escaped slaves etc plus later immigrants. There was no existing Canada or US or Mexico etc at original settlement and there is a dense matrix of legitimate settlement, payment, reasonable relationships, crime, murder, war, invasion, theft by force and fraud, dispossession and more. Some compensation is reasonable but there is a past beyond undoing which is also connected to global stability and responsible order. At the same time history of invasions by immigration and settlement gives sober warning on what can happen with hostile and bellicose aliens and enclaves. Especially in a world where the fall of Rome from within and without is a material example as is the first wave of Islam-IST expansionism by Jihad and the resulting 1400 year World War Zero. There is no doubt that there is a Muslim Brotherhood The Project 100 year global conquest plan of 1982, and likely an Iranian version that has not been captured. Under such, the explanatory memorandum captured in Virginia shows a settlement-jihad, civilisation jihad process and strategy that is of patently hostile intent. In the case of settled immigrants and citizens implicated in that campaign, such involvement constitutes commitment to grand-scale treason or enabling of such. I have no doubt on what happened in Paris and Brussels etc that a material slice of the current refugees are illegal combattants involved in a ruthless war. One that in a world of potential biological and nuclear terrorism should not be underestimated. Satchel, demolition nukes are real, and suitcase nukes are very plausible given simply the reality of nuclear artillery shells. That has to be balanced with needs of legitimate refugees and what would be best for such . . . including the red flag warning sign of severe under-representation of Christians targetted for genocide in the current waves and the problems with other minorities. All this is multiplied by the attitude of many to the majority of the Jewish population of Israel, who descend from 800,000 refugees displaced from the Middle East due to Islamist and Arab nationalist hostility such that the Palestinian Arab (etc) refugee problem is half of a story. The silencing and/or marginalisation of truth on these matters is a sadly telling sign. Until we face the overall truth together, no sound solution is possible and we are sowing the wind to reap a whirlwind. Especially when at the same time various nihilist radicals are pushing agendas that undermine the committed goodwill that is the foundation of long term national survival. The West's ongoing demographic collapse (which is beginning to affect the Caribbean too) is a terrible portent and reflection of civilisational failure. How all of this can be faced, properly understood and soundly addressed I do not know. But, this I know: the cumulative threat is global and existential, with particularly horrific implications for Africa, a by and large poorly governed and ill-defended continent full of militarily relevant resources that evil eyes are watching with geostrategic power lust in mind. I am not optimistic regarding the coming decades. KF kairosfocus
Robert #68
The native has the moral right to decide who comes in and gets our stuff.
Foreigners never have a moral claim to another peoples home and wealth. they only have a moral claim and right to demand to be preserved in their natural rights of life and liberty etc.
Does that mean if the native Americans who were living in Canada before the Europeans came over decide you should leave that you would go? When were your ancestors foreigners in North America? ellazimm
IE I don't demonize anyone and you just don't like my conclusions and demonize me. No I don't think anyone should be sent back to Hitler to be killed. that would be evil. It doesn't mean one must allow them immigration however. The native has the moral right to decide who comes in and gets our stuff. Thats why we fought hitler. We enforced boundaries and the moral claims behind boundaries. Foreigners never have a moral claim to another peoples home and wealth. they only have a moral claim and right to demand to be preserved in their natural rights of life and liberty etc. i don't oppose immigration but only a few and not intrisive. it could accumulate but only if its not intrusive. its not that way today in north america. Read my posts again carefully if you say you live in integrity and intelligence. I don;t curse you because I presume you mean well. I'm a Christian and a Canadian and me. You won't intimidate me in my heart. I want to persuade you. Did I ? Robert Byers
Effigy is still here whining....post is not about it so why did you start talking about homosexual "marriage" ? Are you insecure about it? Does it bother you that people don't accept such nonsense? Kairos " he who would rob me of means of daily bread would rob me of my life; he who would steal my conscience would rob and damn — proper sense — my soul." That's a beautiful quote! Left wing extremists usurped and use legislative power to enforce the new morality based on shallow emotions and what the loudest whining activist want at the moment. They can make us conform but nobody believes in it including them. That's why people like Effigy above spontaneously start babbling about it when nobody is asking. It's show of insecurity. It seems to bother them more than us so they want to prop their weak arguments. "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." --Arnold J. Toynbee (historian) Eugen
KF: "IE, I will simply say that those who do not see the harm provided by the corruption of marriage and of law to aid and abet in that process [I have already linked Girgis et al for those willing to ponder], will have to feel the harm for it to register. There has to be harm for someone to register it. Harming someones delicate sensibilities is not justification for preventing a segment of society from participating in something that the rest of us can. Putting limitations on a persons ability to discriminate against someone is not harmful. "There is more than enough evidence elsewhere, and this is not a main subject of this blog or even of this thread. KF" Yet you have failed to provide any tangible evidence. But I do agree that this is off topic. I will not comment on it further in this thread. Indiana Effigy
IE, I will simply say that those who do not see the harm provided by the corruption of marriage and of law to aid and abet in that process [I have already linked Girgis et al for those willing to ponder], will have to feel the harm for it to register. There is more than enough evidence elsewhere, and this is not a main subject of this blog or even of this thread. KF kairosfocus
KF, your insistence on holding to your opposition to SSM in spite of the complete lack of evidence of any harm to society or individuals within it is duly noted. Indiana Effigy
IE, this is the fire that is being played with when ordinary people of decent conscience acting on longstanding, tried and true principle find themselves repeatedly slandered and subjected to persecution and even criminalisation under false colour of law in a topsy turvy nihilistic world that imposes Plato's cave light is darkness and darkness light shadow shows:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Let me keep going:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .
But then, it seems we will -- yet again -- refuse to learn from anything short of running headlong off a cliff, in mass. Just remember, for a nation to be viable enough of the decent have to be willing to stand in the face of long odds and if necessary die for it. Our civilisation is fast using up its legacy of that sort of goodwill. Ask the ghosts of those who saw Rome fall apart, and their descendants for hundreds of years, whether the price of decadence was worth it. Or, just Read Boethius' The Consolation of Philosophy: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14328/14328-h/14328-h.htm KF PS: Ask yourself what it means that no one will buy or sell, save he who takes the Mark . . . kairosfocus
KF @61: "I repeat, he who would rob me of means of daily bread would rob me of my life;" How is SSM affecting your ability to procure food? "he who would steal my conscience would rob and damn — proper sense — my soul" Again, how does SSM affect your conscience? "The price to be paid by our civilisation for the ongoing neo-fascism . . . ever, an ideology of the left . . . nihilism and increasingly bizarre sexual anarchy will be awful. But we seem hell bent on a march of folly, much as in the 1930’s." Yet the predictions made by the fear mongers around SSM have not come to pass. Chicken Little and the boy who cried wolf have nothing on you. Indiana Effigy
IE, you seem to imagine that word magic -- taking "marriage" hostage to fashionable agendas and dismissing ethical and philosophical concerns tied to the essence of human nature can be dismissively re-labelled "religion" -- can change realities. Unfortunately, the civilisational demographic collapse in progress will (barring a miracle of reversal) say a lot to the contrary but the price of this lesson patently will be far too high for us to bear without severe damage. A mass lemming-march off a cliff cannot be reversed by flapping arms and pretending they are wings to fly. I repeat, he who would rob me of means of daily bread would rob me of my life; he who would steal my conscience would rob and damn -- proper sense -- my soul. The price to be paid by our civilisation for the ongoing neo-fascism . . . ever, an ideology of the left . . . nihilism and increasingly bizarre sexual anarchy will be awful. But we seem hell bent on a march of folly, much as in the 1930's. KF kairosfocus
KF: "E, a rhetorical strategy of polarising projections of base motivation speaks more of what lies in you than in others. M62’s answer above should speak volumes to you. KF" Your unsubstantiated ad hominem is duly noted and will be given all the attention it deserves. "PS: Above, I pointed you to a Harvard Law Review article on principles of marriage and implications of the state or agendas presuming to redefine what is stamped into our nature as male and female and needs of sound child nurture as it wills — will to power with all that such entails:" Thank you for pointing me to this document. It claims to make a non-religious argument against SSM yetis filled with religious context. It resorts to the same issues that I already addressed. The slippery slope argument and the weakening of marriage in general. SSM has been the law for over a decade in Canada and: 1) the divorce rate has not changed. 2) Opposite sex couples are getting married at the same rates, and children are still being born. 3) There has been no serious discussions about legalizing polygamy, incest, beastiality or pedophilia. 4) The rate of homosexuality has not changed. 5) No churches are being forced to preside over same sex weddings. 6) Same sex adoptions are not resulting in the children turning gay at any rate different than they already exist in the general population. 7) The only significant barrier that children of same sex couples face is the intolerance of others. But this is no different than was experienced by the children of inter-racial couples several decades ago. The only thing that has changed is that people in the service industries are no longer able to deny their services to same sex couples. Just as they cannot deny services based on race, gender, etc. Companies that provide insurance for the spouses of employees must now provide it for the spouses of same sex couples. And the families of a same sex spouse may no longer deny access to a spouse who is dying or prevent them from receiving inheritance as the surviving spouse. Indiana Effigy
KF: "IE, I advise you to fix your language and tone. KF" I apologize to you and others that are offended by my language. As mentioned, I very rarely use such language. But when someone like Robert demonizes people simply because of their ethnic background is different than his, I can't keep quiet. History has shown the damage that attitudes like that can do. Indiana Effigy
AYP, so good to see you commenting. It is remnant pockets like you describe that will build the future. KF kairosfocus
Roy, it is a clear enough reference though it does reflect that we are forgetting Roman Numerals. RB is RB, and speaks for and of himself. I think he is trying to speak of the issue of assimilation of culturally diverse immigrants and the impacts on a polity. We must not forget that until the 1940's on democratic, constitutional liberty based polities have been a distinct minority around the world. Arguably, the time when democratisation advanced globally is the 1990's, post cold war. KF kairosfocus
Foreigners have hurt badly Canadians since WW11.
WW11? That's a classic sign of ignorance. Roy
IE, I advise you to fix your language and tone. KF kairosfocus
earthsinterface -- thanks for the info and the link. I'm not trying to make the case that the rest of Norway is like my little corner ... I wish and hope it is. ayearningforpublius
Peter, in many respects, the future belongs to those who show up and work to build it. Demographic collapse, ruinous short-sighted development that triggers disasters, world-conquest minded bellicosity in a world with nukes and ready access to bio weapons [start with anthrax], civilisation-war by mass settlement and implacable subversion backed by chaos, and twisting of law and law enforcement through nihilism all point to civilisation-suicide. Of these, the easiest to reverse is, to counter demographic collapse by baby boom. But, to have babies and raise families in sufficient number to make a difference, people must have hope and value posterity. And, the state must guard marriage and family law based on our evident nature rooted in Creation Order, from the nihilists and sexual anarchists or predators. Their name is Legion. KF kairosfocus
IE, a rhetorical strategy of polarising projections of base motivation speaks more of what lies in you than in others. M62's answer above should speak volumes to you. KF PS: Above, I pointed you to a Harvard Law Review article on principles of marriage and implications of the state or agendas presuming to redefine what is stamped into our nature as male and female and needs of sound child nurture as it wills -- will to power with all that such entails: http://www.harvard-jlpp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/GeorgeFinal.pdf I suggest, you read and then respond in its light. kairosfocus
Those that call others bigots are the real bigots.... Those that call others bigoted morons are the real bigoted morons..... Andre
Effigy It's time for you to leave Eugen
Of course you would omit the single most important metric of social failure - the fertility rate. But that's to be expected. If people could understand that a below replacement fertility rate meant complete extinction then they wouldn't be wiped off the face of the earth as God has willed. I'm sure you didn't understand what I have just written, so I'll make it even simpler. In less than 200 years there will be no more Swedes. Funny how you never mentioned that. Yes, with or without replacement by Muslims (who pray three times a day), as with all secular societies, these ungrateful tenants will no longer waste the bountiful resources God has given to them. Peter
"Foreigners have hurt badly Canadians since WW11." Then you must have been in favour of Canada sending a boatload of Jewish "foreigners" back to Hitler's generosity back in the thirties. I seldom say this on a blog, but you are one fucking bigoted moron. You do realize that your family were also foreigners to Canada, don't you? No, you probably don't. Indiana Effigy
IE The problems with foreigners is too long a list. yet the sum is too many, for too long, including the wrong ones if allowing any in, the interference of them with true Canadians/French Canadians or other citizens about who gets what, segregation to their advantage, discrimination for their advantage, and a general restructuring of Canada by them and the establishment to turn Canucks/French Canadians into a minority without identity rights. I could go on and on and on. Foreigners have hurt badly Canadians since WW11. A great tragedy and wicked injustice and betrayal of a good natured people(s) allowing foreigners to become our countrymen and indeed, in the next generation, our people. No more please and the ones here should be asked to obey their contract for admittance or leave. Them leaving by the millions is a desired goal and could be done after trial. I speak for many or most Canucks I think. A origins blog is not the place however. Robert Byers
"Government presumptuously assumes marriage is its own invention when it purports to define it." Government has been involved in the marriage game for a very long time. They did not re-define your marriage. They have just extended the institution to same sex couples. "If, in fact, marriage is God’s design,..." Unsubstantiated assertion. "When government steps in to impose its own definition, this is a violation of the separation of church and state." They are not imposing their definition on you or any church. A church can still refuse to preside over SSM ceremonies. There is no violation of religious freedom or separation of church and state. "For me, government should not be in the marriage business to begin with." So you would deny any couple (same sex or opposite sex) from becoming married unless they were people of faith? Now who is violating the separation of church and state? "If the state wants to adopt some civil union of its own that comes with its own civil benefits, then I don’t have a problem with that." Good. And they have chosen to call it marriage. Indiana Effigy
IE:
For example, same sex marriage. What principled and informed objections do you have for this?
Government presumptuously assumes marriage is its own invention when it purports to define it. If, in fact, marriage is God's design, then only God can define it. When government steps in to impose its own definition, this is a violation of the separation of church and state. That is the basis of my objection. For me, government should not be in the marriage business to begin with. For similar reasons, I don't think government ought to be deciding what "tithe" or "salvation" or "sanctification" mean either. If the state wants to adopt some civil union of its own that comes with its own civil benefits, then I don't have a problem with that. (EDIT: For instance, I have no real issue with incorporation or limited liability laws that create civil entities with associated benefits.) The state can have whatever restrictions or requirements it wants (subject to democratic approval, of course) for that civil union. And citizens can choose to enter into the civil union, availing themselves of its benefits, or not. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's. Phinehas
VJT: "The Swedish government has even abducted children from their parents, for the sole “crime” of daring to homeschool them – at a time when it was legal! Domenic Johansson was one of these children. Seven years ago, he was abducted from his parents, Christer and Annie, just as they were about to board a plane for India." Children's Aid Societies all over the world remove children from their parents. The intent is often good, but also often misguided. But don't try to blame this on secular societies. In Canada, the government forcibly removed children from their parents for decades for the crime of being born native. The goal was to "take the Indian out of the Indian". The intent was not evil. They honestly believed that they were doing this for the benefit of the children; that they would be better off being raised and taught to be Christians. It is only with the benefit of hindsight that we see how evil this was. Indiana Effigy
In case anyone else misunderstands, the point of comparing the total population to the population of blacks in the USA is because the numbers are roughly equal. Canada has approximate 36 million total population. United States as approximately 40 million African Americans. (Tthe total population of the USA is estimated to be about 360 million now.) My point was that to compare the social situation of the USA to Denmark, Sweden, or even Canada, is foolhardy, given the sheer numbers of people in the USA as compared to those relatively small capita countries. There are more blacks in the USA, with all their complex social problems and issues than the entire country of Canada. (All cultures and races have their problems and issues, of course.) Canada simply doesn't compare. Not even with one minority demographic subset of the USA. "Comparing apples and oranges" doesn't even begin to be an adequate metaphor. How IE got "there are too many blacks in the USA" out of my point is astonishing, but I hope we're crystal clear now. mike1962
That formally (and of course, actually) criminal abduction of children from their parents by the State, on scandalously- vapid grounds, cries to heaven for vengeance. Meanwhle the person or persons who made the key decision(s) should be imprisoned under the normal rubric of the criminal law. And, by the way, I'm to the left of the prophet, Amos - or would be, if the left hadn't lost interest in the subject, in favour of wholesale, sexual libertarianism. As regards people from all over the world wanting to emigrate to the US, the simple and, imo, obvious reason for that would be that they are very unworldly. They think the US is as it's portrayed in films. In the UK actors playing TV soap-opera villains have been attacked in supermarkets. And because he had his profession of paediatrician indicated on his brass name-plate, by his front door, the unfortunate man was attacked ! Almost as funny as the big, paedophile bowler in the Big Lebowski having to call on the houses in his neighbourhood, to announce to the occupants that he was their friendly neighbourhood paedophile ! Except I doubt if the paediatrician would have found his experience as amusing. Axel
Mike, I apologize if I inferred something inaccurate from your words. At 26 you said: "They are a homogeneous bunch with nothing like the demographic problems facing the USA colossus. They are irrelevant to a guy like me, in the USA." I responded: "That is the problem right there. Demographic “problems” are caused by the attitudes of the people in the country and government policies. Canada has very similar demographics as the USA, with a fraction of the “problems”." You responded: "There are more African Americans in the USA than the total population of Canada. No comparison. It’s a joke to think Canada is on par with the USA. But I’ll tell you what, I would gladly trade our southern border for theirs."" From the start we were talking about "problems" encountered in different societies. You were the one that brought up the higher number of blacks in the US, not me. I naturally assumed that this statement was made with respect to the "problems" associated with this. Again, I apologize if I was wrong. Indiana Effigy
mike1962 "Where did I say that there are “too many blacks” in the USA?" Actually you didn't say that. I did understand what you meant, but sometimes these folks will throw an intentional wrench into the conversation to deliberately gummy it if they feel they are losing the argument. ayearningforpublius “Lastly, do you have reliable sources documenting what you say regarding secular Norway and its Atheist bent?” "What you say greatly saddens me. Perhaps my little family enclave is an anomaly in Norway. I do hear from various people that the Muslim population in the larger cities such as Oslo and Bergan are a problem and a burden, but there are few out in the smaller less populated areas." I'll simply post this one link from the Local.no which is Norwegian News in English answer the issues being discussed here as I do not wish to post any longer on this subject. It's just too depressing. The fact is Secular Socialist Europe is going down hill like all other places around the globe. Everyday the News Reports bring us the latest new Abnormal in the headlines. This first article is about the "Soldiers of Odin" versus the Islamic "Soldiers of Allah" in Norway. Actually here in Sweden, there are several Islamic Groups of men who patrol the streets as Sharia Police making sure women are covered, even firmly recommending native Swedish women change their looks or else. But these black uniformed "Soldiers of Odin" are all through Scandinavia. From that point people can scroll further down and view the turmoil of issues regarding trouble in Paradise. http://www.thelocal.no/20160226/soldiers-of-allah-pop-up-in-norway-to-counter-soldiers-of-odin But now I'm finished with this subject. People can decide for themselves whether or not this is truly a socialist paradise. earthsinterface
IE: So, the problem with the US is that there are too many blacks? At least you are honest about your bigotry. Where did I say that there are "too many blacks" in the USA? You're an idiot. mike1962
Andre: "So when you call out a fact that a certain ethnic group is a certain size you are a bigot?" No, I call people bigots when they claim that the size of an ethic group is the problem, as Mike is saying. Indiana Effigy
ayearningforpublius "Lastly, do you have reliable sources documenting what you say regarding secular Norway and its Atheist bent?" I believe the subject was Dänemark and Sweden and that was my main topic and experience. If you have evidence that they majority of Norway is not a secularistic state, then post it. Sweden to me has the most extremist groups. So much so that I often avoid city center when they are protesting. I've never seen so many Nazi organizations competing for power. Equally so are the extremist communist groups. What people should understand about both groups (left-right) is that both sides are Socialists, just variying flavors of such. The only true religious groups of Swedes I've ever stumbled upon is just off the coast here in the archipelago where they are not really Lutheran, but rather Pentecostal. Other than that, the religious groups are African and Middle Eastern Muslims earthsinterface
So when you call out a fact that a certain ethnic group is a certain size you are a bigot? Andre
RB: "Canada has great problems with foreigners and segregated peoples etc. in fact there is a wicked aggressive affirmative action policy and law." And what is the problem that we have with foreigners? Or is it that you don't like foreigners? Mike: "There are more African Americans in the USA than the total population of Canada." So, the problem with the US is that there are too many blacks? At least you are honest about your bigotry. Indiana Effigy
31,33 Canada has great problems with foreigners and segregated peoples etc. in fact there is a wicked aggressive affirmative action policy and law. In everything identity dominates who gets what and always to the loss of true canadians. We have great problems but a left wing establishment and its hosts who get their way. Canadians don't have access to being voices in the nation as America. America is greatly kept down and hurt by identity problems. True Americans living alone, like canadians, would be centuries ahead in happiness and justice and fun. These Scandinavian nations are just a insular middle class urban big city North american without foreign/ethnic groups. It is about demographics. Also everybody would know that or know someone who would say that. Robert Byers
IE: Canada has very similar demographics as the USA, with a fraction of the “problems”. There are more African Americans in the USA than the total population of Canada. No comparison. It's a joke to think Canada is on par with the USA. But I'll tell you what, I would gladly trade our southern border for theirs. mike1962
PPS: Further reading on the fire being currently played with: http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/23/a-rape-survivor-speaks-out-about-transgender-bathrooms/ kairosfocus
Mike: "They are a homogeneous bunch with nothing like the demographic problems facing the USA colossus." That is the problem right there. Demographic "problems" are caused by the attitudes of the people in the country and government policies. Canada has very similar demographics as the USA, with a fraction of the "problems". Indiana Effigy
IE, open your eyes, starting with the increasingly obvious agenda to demonise, marginalise, scapegoat, criminalise and oppress those who do not go along with today's version of fashionable fascism and its progress to imagined utopia of topsy-turvy amoral and nihilistic inversion of morality in which vice becomes virtue and virtue vice by politically correct fiat and agit prop . . . where, you need to recognise that we saw all this before with the rise of C20 totalitarian movements. Movements that it cost 200 million lives or thereabouts to stop. Then, pause a little bit and actually read what you refused to look at after the opening remark that it is a time for truth which so obviously stuck cross-ways in your gullet; where BTW as Ari said, the truth says of what is that it is; and of what is not, that it is not so neat talking points that try to project oh you are not open to radical relativisation are simply besides the point, As in, did you realise that what followed was an outline of the sins of our civilisation's power elites across the past 500 years? (As in your sneering dismissal looks distinctly hollow in that light, looks instead like you set up and knocked over a strawman and refused to examine what was actually there in front of you.) Your openly confessed closed minded reaction . . . sight unseen . . . speaks saddening volumes, and not in your favour. Please, think again. KF PS: Plato's warning from 2350 years ago still speaks to us: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/philosophy/denmark-its-no-secular-paradise-neither-is-sweden/#comment-602342 and you may find Girgis, George and Anderson as some relevant reading on principled objections to the agenda to warp marriage: http://www.harvard-jlpp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/GeorgeFinal.pdf kairosfocus
Indian Effigy @ 25, 'When a commenter starts with “It is time for truth”, he/she is not admitting the possibility that they might be wrong.' That is a Shibboleth, since it sounds momentously wrong, but is in fact perfectly sensible. The purpose of an open mind is to close on the truth - which presents an insuperable problem for atheists, with their died-in-the-wool relativism. There are situations where it would apply, but this is not one of them. Axel
earthsinterface, you cannot count on more tax evaders being revealed. They have said that 80 % or more will remain under wraps. They want to get at Putin. At least, that's what VeteransToday asserts. They obtain some high-quality, non MSM news and opinion. Axel
earthsinterface @22: What you say greatly saddens me. Perhaps my little family enclave is an anomaly in Norway. I do hear from various people that the Muslim population in the larger cities such as Oslo and Bergan are a problem and a burden, but there are few out in the smaller less populated areas. To flesh out my family profile a bit more: In many of the homes we find a small Israeli flag and a menorah, most often purchased on a trip to Israel -- some have been there multiple times. It is also common to see Israeli oriented newspapers printed in Norwegian. The family has sent out Christian missionaries to many far spread areas of the world such as Cambodia, Talan, Tunisia, Japan and Russia. And one family has befriended a Muslim family who has since moved to Oslo. We had occasion to meet both of them once when we attended a lecture on the history of Israel - ancient and modern - complete with a less than flattering picture of the modern Palestinian Muslims and their hatred for Israel -- the Muslim in attendance, after the lecture agree with all the Norwegian spoke of - which surprised me greatly. Lastly, do you have reliable sources documenting what you say regarding secular Norway and its Atheist bent? Again, I thank you for this very sad news you bring me -- I'm hoping it's not true, but my thinking is that you tell the truth. Best regards ayearningforpublius
Even if Sweden and Denmark were secular, socialist utopias, who gives a rat's butt? Denmark has the population on par with Wisconsin. Sweden has a population on par with Michigan. They are a homogeneous bunch with nothing like the demographic problems facing the USA colossus. They are irrelevant to a guy like me, in the USA. mike1962
KF @: "It is time for truth." Anytime someone starts out with those words, I stop reading. An open and honest discussion must start from the premise that both sides admit the possibility that they may be wrong. When a commenter starts with "It is time for truth", he/she is not admitting the possibility that they might be wrong. Indiana Effigy
KF @9: "IE, care to substantiate the implicit claim that there are no principled, informed objections to the ever onward radical secularist agenda?" For example, same sex marriage. What principled and informed objections do you have for this? Who does it hurt?, How does it hurt society? The two major objections, other than religious ones (which don't count because marriage is not owned by any religion) are 1) the slippery-slope argument; and 2) the erosion of traditional marriage. Slippery Slope: The fear mongers had argued that SSM would lead to polygamy, pedophilia, beastiality, etc. SSM Has been the law in Canada for over ten years and there have been no serious attempts to legalize any of this. There are fringe groups that lobby for this, but they existed long before the SSM debate ever started. Erosion of Traditional Marriage: Divorce rates have not increased since SSM. My marriage is as strong now as it was when I got married over 30 years ago. And then there is the whole concept of traditional marriage. What traditional marriage are we talking about? The one where the woman had to promise to obey the husband? The one where the husband was legally entitled to physically discipline his wife? Marriage has evolved in my life-time, making it a more equal partnership than it was in the past. You may not like it, but many do. Indiana Effigy
'... not guaranteed a job ?' I suspect that would sound comical to American ears. Guaranteed ?!? I should think there would be little chance of a job for most graduates from ordinary universities there today. Isn't there a joke question from the mouths of graduates flipping burgers : 'Would you like fries with that?' But, sure, that political correctness, so characteristic today of the left, everywhere, who seem to have long lost interest in their original rationale, in favour of sexual libertarianism, is criminal. Candidly, I would like to see the worst of the totalitarian authors of the senselessness regarding policing 'gone mad', imprisoned. There used to be a joke about being a 'bouncer' for Mothercare (a shop for baby clothes, etc). Now it seems your police have been forced to 'morph' into the latter. Except it's not pregnant mothers they're having to police. Is personal bankruptcy still open to students and others crippled by usurious debt still an option ? The 'bought and paid for' American polity moved very swiftly to shut down that option. In my opinion, refugees who fail to understand that they are guests, at the expense of the indigenous citizens, and to act with the ordinary civility common to the national culture, deserve scant sympathy and if possible, sent elsewhere. As the theme of these posts indicates, it is not that we bear no blame for their plight and all the madness engendered by increasing godlessness, but it won't be sorted out even imperfectly by sitting on our thumbs. Were we still God-fearing nations, there is so much we could enact and to help reasonable numbers of immigrants to settle and assimilate, but why would they be daft enough to give up their religious beliefs for atheism ? Not difficult to see why they should at least feel contempt for us, even if they should be required to show a modicum of respect for us and our moribund, Christian culture, if only for its residual merits. Great posts, KF, News and Harry, if I may say so. 'Civilizations can become too stupid to survive.' Pithy and apposite beyond belief, News. Axel
‘Who knows what horrors he has been through?’ Swedish police chief sparks anger by SYMPATHISING with Somali boy, 15, charged with social worker’s murder I remember when this happened. It was in an area south of central Gothenburg called Mölndal. In fact the Swedish authorities are so frightened of offending the Muslim community, that they forbid her co-workers from holding a memorial in her honor at that place where they all worked for fear it would offend the other muslims. Stories like this are a dime a dozen here, but not all are reported. The reugee assylum seekers today are a different culture of human being, irrespective of what country they come from. Many are ungrateful for the provisions and housing they are given here. They want an upgrade in housing and are picky about what cities they are being sent to. This whole immigration open door policy throughout the entire E.U. was never planned for and very little thought was given as to the potential for being overwhelmed. Many of them live in camps in rural areas and they are upset because there is a lack of housing. In the old days regugees were always grateful for any help provided by a host country. This is a different culture. ayearningforpublius speaking about Norway. "There is a closeness in the local church community across all generations. Though the “state church” is Lutheran, most of my family are active in a thriving independent church." This is definitely not the rule or even close to it in most of Scandinavia. They are mostly Atheist or Agnostic. Maybe 5% are close to be religious. The State Church "Lutheran" is extremely secular and active in many of the state's worldview policies. Example is they are heavily in favor of Gay Marriage and highly active in most of the Euro-Pride festivals. "There is a love of Israel." Sweden is the exact opposite. Most citizens here hate Israel and have always favored the Arab causes. In fact my wife said it was popular back in the 1970s & 80s for women to wear those Yasser Arafat Palastinian scarfs over their heads back then. Even my father-in-law who is now dead always stated what a lousy job Hitler did with the Jews. They just hate the Jewish state. Frankly I could care less about their politics here or anywhere else for that matter. But there is one record I'd like to set straight. I even have to convince family and friends that the rumor News Reports of Free Academic College education where Scandinavian youth are not in debt like USA young people is a total flat out lie. They are terribly in debt mostly because they have to take out numerous loans over the course of their college career to support themselves within an extremely expense Socialist Society. Like my brother-in-law, it may take decades to pay off and there is no guarantee of employment after they graduate. Some things are the same though. Most Swedes like indigenous born and raised average Americans DO NOT want to do labor work. Hence the need for immigrants to do jobs they refuse to do. I have African friends who came here for work under the promise of making good money planting GMO trees in the industrial forest industry. It does not pay that well and this work is refused by native Swedes. Admittedly it is hard in summer where temps are hot and sticky and you are continually under attack by mosquitoes. A couple other things to watch for. Scandinavia has had for a long time this high minimum wage law. But there is a loop hole way Corporations get around having to pay for this. They hire temp agencies to provide workers for three months, then hire a new batch. If an employee works at a company more than three months, they have to provide full benefits which are outrageously expensive, but not if they work less than three months. Otherwise they could not compete with the manufactured goods they produce. Also there are rich and wealthy here, but they tax evade and do a lot of screwy offshore things which as you all know have come to light recently. Count on more being exposed here with the Panamaian scandal. I also was disappointed with the country not being more Ecogreen as I thought I would see. I suppose I was thinking Sweden would be more like Switzerland. It's not. In the early days they tried forcing citizens to be ecogreen reguarding recycling. They had undercover plain clothes Eco-Gestapo groups which spied on how people were using the various recycele Bins located everywhere. If you put colored glass in clear glass bins or vice versa, you immediately were confronted and received a ticket with fine. Same with Newsprint in Cardboard Bins etc. It's not to say some of these things aren't well meaning, they are. But the propaganda that this is a socialist paradise is unfounded. earthsinterface
What bothers some of us is how unnatural such societies become. Here’s a profoundly troubling incident that might bear reflection based on Vincent Torley’s thoughts:
'Who knows what horrors he has been through?' Swedish police chief sparks anger by SYMPATHISING with Somali boy, 15, charged with social worker's murder
Regular readers will know that I think evolutionary psychology is pop culture fluff, but there are natural ways for human beings to behave. Sympathizing with the felon against his victim - for no reason whatsoever except virtue signalling and moral posturing - is NOT one of them. We must know that things are very badly wrong when a police chief indulges in the sort of thing that one would expect, at worst, of Bimbette from Airhead TV. My compatriot Mark Steyn puts it all a bit more simply: Civilizations can become too stupid to survive. News
kairosfocus @18
... we increasingly hate scripture as a civilisation and will manufacture any silly excuse to refuse to listen to it.
Which is to say contemporary civilization has committed a not very original sin: we have decided we can "be like God" and decide for ourselves what is good and what is evil, there is no need to listen to Scripture. Contrast this with how St. Cyril, Bishop of Jerusalem, who lived in the fourth century, instructed pagans in the faith:
17. ... For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures. -- Catechetical Lecture 4
The widespread disbelief of contemporary Christianity in the historicity of sections of the Scriptures that the Early Church Fathers unanimously considered historical -- but are now considered myths and legends -- has left the Church helpless and befuddled in the face of Islamist terrorism. Its helpless befuddlement is demonstrated by its lack of response to a catastrophe that is in progress; so it is no surprise that it is incapable of realistically facing the eventual catastrophe that the combination of Islamist terrorism and the availability of WMDs in the modern world will bring down up us. The catastrophe that is in progress is, of course, the world-wide, anti-life, anti-family, anti-human nature juggernaut that has already taken the lives of innocent humanity by the billions. Not dealing with that in a realistic manner commensurate with its urgency -- not dealing with bloody carnage kept hidden from us, but that we know quite well is taking place -- will eventually bring down upon us bloody carnage we will be able to see all too well. Idolatry induces helpless befuddlement. We have rendered unto Caesar authority over innocent human life that belongs to God alone by our toleration of the state pretending to have the prerogative to authorize the killing of innocent humanity as a matter of social policy. This is the befuddled stupor from which John Paul II tried to awaken Christians and the West by his promulgation of Evangelium Vitae. Twenty-one years later, it seems, many remain fast asleep. I am afraid God will use Islamist terror to wake us up since our response to JP II's alarm was to silence it and go back to sleep. harry
earthsinterface @7 (and others): Thank you for that extensive recap. Let me share my personal experience with a small part of another Scandinavian country -- Norway. My father at age 19 immigrated from Norway in 1929 along with a younger brother and a number of other young men from their home area along the Southwestern corner of Norway. Most settled in the Northwest US. Dad was the oldest of 10, and he and his brother left 8 siblings behind in very tough times in the "old country." Fast forwarding to more recent times, beginning in 1970, we met the first of those left behind -- a prince of a man, my uncle Haakon. Then in 1985 a cousin, his wife and two daughters visited. We then made our first of many trips to the "old country" in 1989 and discovered a treasure chest of family gems. Here's what we have found over the years. There is a unique and multifaceted closeness about this family (when I am there, there are 28 first cousins). There is a closeness within most, if not all, families. There is a closeness between families. There is a closeness between families in Norway and families in America -- we visit back and forth often. There is a closeness in the local church community across all generations. Though the "state church" is Lutheran, most of my family are active in a thriving independent church. There is a love for America and Americans. There is a love of Israel. I don't know if this little corner of Norway is unique within Norway -- I hope not. I hope that it is reflective of most of Norway. Even if not -- a bright, wholesome and healthy light radiates from that small costal community and its surrounding farm area that seems to infect all who visit and become acquainted with these wonderful people. Such is the power of faith. ayearningforpublius
Axel (attn IE): It is time for truth. Unacknowledged guilt is a deeply corrupting influence that taints the course of our whole civilisation, especially over the past 500 years. Gold guilt, slave trade and kidnapping guilt, conquest guilt, oppression and colonisation guilt, sexual infidelity and perversion guilt, perjury guilt [guilt of dishonour and of secret tainting oaths and influences that undermine truth, right and justice], war guilt, blood guilt. Guilt of warping the very names of truth, knowledge, right, law, justice. And more. In the case of the USA the spreading taint of guilt over coming on 60 million innocent unborn children slaughtered under false colour of law, tainted law, corrupts and eats out everything else. There is a lot more guilt of this class but this is a watershed. And the global scale of the slaughter in the womb with connivance of law and medicine is in the hundreds to thousands of millions range. And the source for that estimate is the PP Guttmacher institute's global number of abortions per year, was it 50 millions? So, it is no surprise to see everything that guilt touches getting tainted, perverted, corrupted, eaten out by rottenness. That context is part of why we increasingly hate scripture as a civilisation and will manufacture any silly excuse to refuse to listen to it. Especially when it rebukes our sins. So, let me clip Isa 5 again:
Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight! 22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, 23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! 24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. [ESV]
KF kairosfocus
ellazimm Well that means people dislike people for unjustified reasons or because of the truth. What do you say what not true in my statement? These things can and should be scored. Whats the score and who scores!! Robert Byers
The US is in a class of its own for lords of misrule and the dystopian ethos they have fomented. 'When justice leaves a society, what are its rulers but mighty bands of robbers.' - St Augustine of Hippo Augustine certainly knew a thing or two. Human nature doesn't change, either. Axel
Indiana Effigy: I’m not very smart. Yes, we can tell. You can't even use correct spelling. Mung
IE, it is quite clear that you are playing with evolutionary materialist, secular humanist agendas without understanding the underlying issues, world view assumptions and break-downs, or where those things will -- on a lot of bloody and painful history -- likely end up if unchecked. I note to you that this worldview is amoral, nihilistic, self-falsifying through multiple self contradictions, and more. All of which can be substantiated in detail. In particular, it is more than possible to object to various fashionable agenda items proposed by such without being an ignoramus or bigot or irrational. Which is what you assumed in your remarks above. KF kairosfocus
KF :"EZ, FYI, RB is Canadian. KF" That just proves that Canada also has crazies. I strongly suspect that Monserrat also has their share. Indiana Effigy
KF: "IE, care to substantiate the implicit claim that there are no principled, informed objections to the ever onward radical secularist agenda? That morality is radically and absolutely relative and that therefore moral accountability rooted in laws of our nature in-stamped per creation order is absurd? Whilst, preserving responsible, rational freedom? That, might and manipulation make “right” and “truth” etc is a road to sound community? KF" I'm not very smart. Please use words and grammar that make sense. I simply claimed that nobody has ever claimed that Denmark is a secular paradise, just that the fear mongering by those too ignorant to make rational comments (eg. Homosexuality, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc.), cannot support their "dire consequences" with facts. For example, SSM has been legal for over a decade, and none of the dire consequences by people like you have occurred. Indiana Effigy
F/N: Plato, 2350 years ago, warned:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them.
It seems to m that we are beginning to live out what was already warned against that long ago on very painful and bloodily costly experience. KF kairosfocus
EZ, FYI, RB is Canadian. KF kairosfocus
IE, care to substantiate the implicit claim that there are no principled, informed objections to the ever onward radical secularist agenda? That morality is radically and absolutely relative and that therefore moral accountability rooted in laws of our nature in-stamped per creation order is absurd? Whilst, preserving responsible, rational freedom? That, might and manipulation make "right" and "truth" etc is a road to sound community? KF kairosfocus
I don't recall anyone suggesting that Denmark or the other Scandinavian countries were secular paradises. The only time that I have seen people try to make these types of comparisons is when uninformed (usually willfully uninformed) try to make claims about the dire consequences that would happen if the government swung further to the left, or became more secular, or legalized marijuana, or euthanasia, or gay marriage. These countries have been used as examples that their ignorant fear mongering has no basis in fact. Nobody has said that those countries didn't have problems. Indiana Effigy
Well here are my first hand living in Scandinavia thoughts on your bullet points. "1. Latin Americans are actually the world’s happiest people; Danes are the world’s most contented people." Well this is where the definition of happiness does come into play. It's similar to the way humans judge Nature based on human understanding of what is wrong and right, good and bad, etc. For example 'parasites' are evil therefore a designer would not have made them. But on a Happiness definition, industrial nations people tend to judge based on material possessions which they often equate with quality of life. Hispanics, whom I worked with and around for almost 30+ years near the Mexican border may not have much, but what they do have they share and place high value on family and friends. In Scandinavia close immediate families drift apart and cousins and other extended family members are rarely thought of, of course there are exceptions. Possible reasons are the modern enlightened family structure in Scandinavia. Families are defined in many ways here, for example the term "Sambo" means people who shack-up and want to play house without the benefit of marriage is very common here. But the Swedish government does force parents to provide for any children which result from such an arrangement as this. But the traditional family doesn't really exist and like other countries divorce is high even when they choose that relationship route. "2. The success of Sweden and Denmark is due to its social homogeneity and its Protestant work ethic, rather than socialism." Well, scratch Homogenity as that is fizzling fast as the News Reports of massive uncontrolled disorganized chaotic immigration are exposing. The only Socialism on the rise here is National Socialism, but that is true now of almost any European country now days. I'm not really sure what 'Protestant Work Ethic" means anymore since most of the indigenous homogenous Scandinavians are not religious in the conventional sense, they are secular and basically worship the state and science, which like the United States does not like being questioned. "3. Scandinavian societies are egalitarian, but they also tend to stifle individuality." In Scandinavian language they have a term which goes way back [I think before Socialism] called, "Lagom" which means moderate, just right, equality for all, not too much - not too little, etc. Except that's not how the leadership lives life [gee what a surprise that is - not]. For example when I first moved here, extreme socialist [almost Communist when it came to wanting to tax people to death] Göran Persson was Prime Minister of Sweden. His wife ran Sweden's Systembaloget (government run & controlled booze stores). Both were filthy rich, supposedly something evil from their ideological viewpoint. It was after he lost his re-election run that he and his wife were criticized for purchasing a several million dollar mansion and estate with acreage outside of Stockholm. He replied that people didn't understand what important people he and his wife were and they needed such residency to entertain important foreign dignataries, etc. One more that on your point about stifling individuality. To sum up, Scandinavia, [Sweden Especially) is a lot like one of those "Free-Thought" Forums. You are welcome to join in and think freely as long as it conforms to all the other free-thinkers within their little universe. "4. Denmark and Sweden have their own social problems." They are equal to all other countries on the planet in this, but they've always had a better public relations face of hiding it better than other nations. Like other nations on Earth, there is no unity within and it's spiraling downward. With more and more immigrants coming in who are running from oppressive regimes, etc, they also are carrying with them all their cultural, religious and political baggage with them. They want a country within all these various E.U. countries and Scandinavia is no different. I believe just last year somewhere between 300-400 youth, born in Swedn to immigrant parents went to Syria to fight for ISIS. Neo-Nazism is on a powerful rise here and they clash in violent protests with Communists group who are as equally as violent. Protests and demonstrations are a regular way of life here in major city centers and squares. There are so many that most of you over in the States never hear about this stuff. "5. Sweden also has a shocking record of violating individual liberties." Again, Scandinavia is like one of those typical Free Thought forums where freethinking is allowed as long as it is identical to the forum moderator's freethought. You are correct on the children being taken from parents for home schooling, often times from visiting immigrants who have residency permits for a couple of years while the do IT work for Volvo as was the case with one India family who were leaving back to India from the Stockholm airport and had their children taken because of some State violations in that regards. Germany is the same, it's they State which must educate children not parents, it's against the law and could bring prison. There are other ways in which indoctrination is accomplished, especially with getting new immigrants to change their worldview on morailty. I can understand some thing, but in government run landguage classes, showing flims with pornographic segments in it is how they attempt to change the moral character of their new citizens. In fact even in public schools, we recently had some friends from Africa who were upset about a filthy film showing homosexual men having anal sex as part of their AIDS prevention message. These open views on sexuality have always been a part of Sweden, but they are becoming more openly graphic and ridiculous. Some years back they gave a taxpayer funded grant to a Film Producer who specializes in Lesbian porno films, $68,000 dollar grant because it was for free speech. They were even one of the last countries to ban child porn and the reason it was sold publicly is because of Free Speech. Now if someone wishes to view child porn, some large city libraries carry it because it's considered free speech. Of course the rights of kids are violated, but what the hey. There are a lot of screwy abnormalities about Scandinavia despite the sugar coatings by ideologues. Noray who experienced one of the most horrific mass killings by that Neo-Nazi who murdered 84 people was given a 21 year sentence, even though the 84 people he killed, their families and friends all got life sentences. The stupidity with which they coddle criminals with punishment is sickening and the criminals take advantage of this. Okay, I apologize for the lengthy Vtorley style comment post, but trust me, this is just the tip of the iceberg. The reality is they are no more superior than most other countries and are as equally of not worse in the hypocrite department when it comes to neutrality stance. Especially when it comes to the manufacture of munnitions of which the use to be #7, but recently dropped to #9 with Afghanistan and Iraq wars not in full fighting mode. earthsinterface
Robert #5
The happiest people have always been in the English speaking nations.
Let inferior to the anglo american civilization.
Everybody wants to live in america and canada and not sweden or Denmark.
It's this kind of attitude which makes a lot of Europeans dislike Americans. ellazimm
The happiest people have always been in the English speaking nations. its just that foreign peoples coming in who don't assimilate fail to be as happy. Scan nations are inded just a very controlled demographic. Or rather they are all middle class people. I agree it was the protestent motivation that le to a higher moral and intellectual standard and so wealth standard relative to europe. NOT a work ethic. just a curve in nice and smart. Let inferior to the anglo american civilization. you can score and thats the point of the thread. I agree pumping them up is because they are seen as liberal capitalitistic democracies and not conservative cap dems. Everybody wants to live in america and canada and not sweden or Denmark. They are just ordinary stable middle class suburban Toronto and don't have the extrems on the curves as Toronto. In other words they have no Barak Obama problems to make everyone less happy. Robert Byers
People in a democracy are never going to be happy because the minority classes have to be given their rights. Some of the oppressed classes have to be helped along with laws favoring them - this creates resentment in the majority. Me_Think
Panama in the news. The Panama Papers Mung
Most statistics are bias in one way or another because they take into consideration the material satisfaction of one nation; It is just how "happiness is defined by the majority of the world. So, it is also important to define what happiness is. I f the the Bushman in Africa were in charge of this survey, would they even consider any of those materialistic categories? I would bet that the majority of them are very happy and satisfied people and yet not "civilized" by our own standards. J-Mac
Panamanian Death Metal? Yikes! http://www.metal-archives.com/lists/PA Mung

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