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Denmark: it’s no secular paradise. Neither is Sweden.

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Recently there has been a spate of newspaper reports extolling Denmark as the world’s happiest country. Secular liberals often point to the Scandinavian countries as an earthly paradise, when compared with what they see as a broken-down, inegalitarian, hyper-religious United States. Are they right? I decided to check out the facts, and here’s what I’ve come up with.

My findings, in a nutshell

1. Latin Americans are actually the world’s happiest people; Danes are the world’s most contented people.

2. The success of Sweden and Denmark is due to its social homogeneity and its Protestant work ethic, rather than socialism.

3. Scandinavian societies are egalitarian, but they also tend to stifle individuality.

4. Denmark and Sweden have their own social problems.

5. Sweden also has a shocking record of violating individual liberties.

1. Latin Americans are actually the world’s happiest people; Danes are the world’s most contented people

How do you define happiness, anyway?

Most people would tend to define “happiness” as a feeling of enjoying your life, typically accompanied by behavior such as laughing or smiling a lot, engaging in fun activities, and sharing one’s positive experiences with one’s friends and family. If you define happiness in this way, then the happiest people in the world aren’t the Danes, but Latin Americans.

A 2015 Gallup report by Jon Clifton, titled, Who Are the Happiest People in the World? The Swiss or Latin Americans? (April 24, 2015), explains the difference between two widely used international metrics for happiness. One metric, used in the UN World Happiness Report, places the Danes (or in 2015, the Swiss) on top, while the other metric, used by Gallup in its Global Healthways Wellbeing Index, places Latin American countries on top:

The Swiss are the happiest people on the planet. That was the conclusion of the most recent UN World Happiness Report. Just weeks ago, however, Gallup released a report suggesting something very different — that the happiest people in the world are Latin Americans. Which one is right?

The answer is “both” — it just depends on how you define happiness. If you think happiness is how people see their lives — then the Swiss are the happiest people in the world. If you think happiness is defined by how people live their lives through experiences such as smiling and laughing, enjoyment and feeling treated with respect each day — then the happiest people in the world are Latin Americans.

The 2014 Global Healthways Wellbeing Index defines “well-being” as a composite of five elements. Within each of these constituents, there are three possible levels of well-being:

Definitions

The Five Elements of Well-Being

Purpose: Liking what you do each day and being motivated to achieve your goals
Social: Having supportive relationships and love in your life
Financial: Managing your economic life to reduce stress and increase security
Community: Liking where you live, feeling safe and having pride in your community
Physical: Having good health and enough energy to get things done daily

Levels of Well-Being

Thriving: Well-being that is strong and consistent in a particular element
Struggling: Well-being that is moderate or inconsistent in a particular element
Suffering: Well-being that is low and inconsistent in a particular element

The world’s happiest people are found in Latin America, not Scandinavia

According to the 2014 Global Healthways Wellbeing Index, Panama is the happiest country in the world, and most of the top 10 countries are in Latin America. Denmark ranks just 7th in the world:

New country rankings from the Gallup-Healthways Global Well-Being Index show that, for the second time since last year’s inaugural report, Panama has the highest overall well-being in the world. The new report, “2014 Country Well-Being Rankings Report”, ranks 145 countries and areas based on the percentages of their residents that are thriving in three or more well-being elements.

The Americas have a strong presence in the ten countries with the world’s highest overall well-being, with seven countries on the list. After Panama, rounding out the top ten are Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Switzerland, Belize, Chile, Denmark, Guatemala, Austria and Mexico…
[FYI: Norway came 16th, Sweden 26th, USA 23rd, Canada 24th, Australia 40th, UK 44th, Russia 47th, France 48th – VJT.]

The Gallup-Healthways Global Well-Being Index uses a holistic definition of well-being and self-reported data from individuals across the globe to create a unique view of societies’ progress on the elements that matter most to well-being: purpose, social, financial, community and physical. It is the most proven, mature and comprehensive measure of well-being in populations…

People in Latin America (and especially, people living in Panama and Costa Rica) experience a lot of positive emotions on a daily basis, according to a Gallup report by Jon Clifton titled, Mood of the World Upbeat on International Happiness Day (March 19, 2015):

As the world marks the third annual International Day of Happiness on Friday, the happiest people on the planet might be Latin Americans. People in Latin America are the most likely in the world to experience a lot of positive emotions on a daily basis, according to Gallup’s Positive Experience Index. In fact, for the first time in Gallup’s 10-year history of global tracking, all of the top 10 countries with the highest Positive Experience Index scores are in Latin America.

Why are the people of Panama so happy?

Journalist Homa Khaleeli examines the secret to happiness in Panama, in a Guardian report titled, World’s happiest country: how did Panama overtake Denmark? (September 17, 2014):

A poll by Gallup and Healthways Global reports that the Central American country now has the most positive population, after 133,000 people from 135 countries were asked to rate their wellbeing in five categories: purpose, social, financial, community and physical.

So what makes people in Panama so cheery?

Cultural attache for Panama, Laura Montenegro, thinks it is down to the fact the country has a thriving economy and has maintained its traditional values. “Family bonds are very strong here, and on Sundays everyone still gets together,” she says. “So even when people are struggling they don’t feel alone. We have a very beautiful landscape too and even in Panama city you never feel too far from nature. We have a booming economy and financial stability. When the global financial crisis hit, Panama came out of it even better than before, because our banks had been very cautious.”

Another factor that helps explain why Panamians are so happy is that Latin Americans also tend to focus on the positive, according to a Gallup report titled, People Worldwide Are Reporting a Lot of Positive Emotions (May 21, 2014):

That so many people are reporting positive emotions in Latin America at least partly reflects the cultural tendency in the region to focus on the positives in life.

The Danes: contented, rather than happy

What about the people of Denmark? Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that the Danes are contented rather than happy, and that their contentment is based on having low expectations, according to a report by Michael Booth in The Atlantic titled, The Danish Don’t Have the Secret to Happiness (January 30, 2015):

Over the years I have asked many Danes about these happiness surveys—whether they really believe that they are the global happiness champions — and I have yet to meet a single one of them who seriously believes it’s true.

Newspaper editor Anne Knudsen had an interesting theory relating to why the Danes continue to respond positively to happiness surveys: “In Denmark it is shameful to be unhappy,” she told me. “If you ask me how I am and I start telling you how bad I feel, then it might force you to do something about it. It might put a burden on you to help me. So, that’s one of the main reasons people say things are all right, or even ‘super.’”

Here’s another convincing theory, posited by a Danish friend of mine: “We always come top of those surveys because they ask us at the beginning of the year what our expectations are,” he said. “Then they ask us at the end of the year whether those expectations were met. And because our expectations are so extremely low at the beginning of the year, they tend to get met more easily.

Could that be the secret of the Danes’ contentedness? Low expectations? … Happiness has never been an “inalienable right” in Denmark, so it could be that the Danes appreciate it all the more when it manifests itself. Perhaps Danish happiness is not really happiness at all, but something much more valuable and durable: contentedness, being satisfied with your lot, low-level needs being met, higher expectations being kept in check.

Other theories about Danish “happiness”: anti-depressants and Danish DNA

A recent report in The Local [Denmark] (March 16, 2016) discusses other theories that have been put forward as to why Danes score well in happiness surveys:

Theories abound for why Danes consistently rank so high in these types of studies. Some say it’s down to having more realistic expectations while others cynically point to the nation’s high use of antidepressants, with upwards of 12 percent of the population on some sort of antidepressant medication.

Another theory is that it is genetic. Eugenio Proto, a researcher at the University of Warwick, told The Local in 2014 that his analysis of data on 131 countries from various international surveys on happiness found that the more ‘Danish’ people are, the happier they are as well.

“If you have Danish DNA, regardless of where you live, you are likely to report high levels of happiness,” Proto said.

2. The success of Sweden and Denmark is due to its social homogeneity and its Protestant work ethic; socialism has nothing to do with it

Regardless of whether they are the world’s happiest nations or not, Sweden and Denmark are undeniably successful countries. Many people put this down to Scandinavia’s cradle-to-grave welfare system. However, a report in the Boston Globe by Jeff Jacoby titled, No, Bernie Sanders, Scandinavia is not a socialist utopia (October 15, 2015) explains why the reality of Scandinavia’s welfare-state utopia doesn’t match the hype. As it turns out, the real roots of Scandinavia’s success lie in its traditional work ethic and its embrace of free-market policies in the nineteenth century:

To begin with, explains Swedish scholar Nima Sanandaji, the affluence and cultural norms upon which Scandinavia’s social-democratic policies rest are not the product of socialism. In “Scandinavian Unexceptionalism,” a penetrating new book published by the Institute of Economic Affairs, Sanandaji shows that the Nordic nations’ prosperity “developed during periods characterized by free-market policies, low or moderate taxes, and limited state involvement in the economy.

For example, Sweden was a poor nation for most of the 19th century (which helps explain the great wave of Swedish emigration to the United States in the 1800s). That began to change as Stockholm, starting around 1870, turned to free-enterprise reforms Robust capitalism replaced the formerly agrarian system, and Sweden grew rich. “Property rights, free markets, and the rule of law combined with large numbers of well-educated engineers and entrepreneurs,” Sanandaji writes. The result was an environment in which Swedes experienced “an unprecedented period of sustained and rapid economic development.” In fact, between 1870 and 1936, Sweden had the highest growth rate in the industrialized world.

Scandinavia’s hard-left turn didn’t come about until much later…

The real key to Scandinavia’s unique successes isn’t socialism, it’s culture. Social trust and cohesion, a broad egalitarian ethic, a strong emphasis on work and responsibility, commitment to the rule of law — these are healthy attributes of a Nordic culture that was ingrained over centuries. In the region’s small and homogeneous countries (overwhelmingly white, Protestant, and native-born), those norms took deep root. The good outcomes and high living standards they produced antedated the socialist nostrums of the 1970s. Scandinavia’s quality of life didn’t spring from leftist policies. It survived them.

3. Scandinavian societies are egalitarian, but tend to stifle individuality

A strong egalitarian ethic pervades Scandinavian societies. While this egalitarian ethic provides people with a sense of security, it also tends to stifle people’s individuality.

The Jante Law: the conformist social ethic that governs Scandinavia

Most North American readers may not realize that Scandinavian societies are governed by a set of social conventions, which are known unofficially as the “Law of Jante“:

The Jante Law as a concept was created by the Dano-Norwegian author Aksel Sandemose, who, in his novel A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks (En flyktning krysser sitt spor, 1933, English translation published in the USA in 1936), identified the Law of Jante as ten rules. Sandemose’s novel portrays the small Danish town Jante …, where nobody is anonymous…

Generally used colloquially in Denmark and the rest of the Nordic countries as a sociological term to negatively describe a condescending attitude towards individuality and success, the term refers to a mentality that de-emphasises individual effort and places all emphasis on the collective, while discouraging those who stand out as achievers.

There are ten rules in the law as defined by Sandemose, all expressive of variations on a single theme and usually referred to as a homogeneous unit: You are not to think you’re anyone special or that you’re better than us.

The ten rules state:

You’re not to think you are anything special.
You’re not to think you are as good as we are.
You’re not to think you are smarter than we are.
You’re not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You’re not to think you know more than we do.
You’re not to think you are more important than we are.
You’re not to think you are good at anything.
You’re not to laugh at us.
You’re not to think anyone cares about you.
You’re not to think you can teach us anything.

These ten principles or commandments are often claimed to form the “Jante’s Shield” of the Scandinavian people.

How the Jante Law poisons the Danish education system

In a Guardian article titled, Dark lands: the grim truth behind the ‘Scandinavian miracle’ (January 27, 2014), Michael Booth (who lives in Denmark with his Danish wife and family) reports that the Jante law mentality leads Danes to overlook talented people and celebrate mediocrity:

[A] prominent newspaper commentator, Jyllands-Posten’s Niels Lillelund, pinpointed a more serious side effect of the Danes’ Jante Law mentality: “In Denmark we do not raise the inventive, the hardworking, the ones with initiative, the successful or the outstanding; we create hopelessness, helplessness, and the sacred, ordinary mediocrity.”

Last year, in an interview with Rob Montz, a journalist writing for Reason magazine (Scandinavia is a Collectivist Paradise? Not So Much, April 30, 2015), Michael Booth described how Denmark’s egalitarian ethic plays out at school:

We sent our kids to a mainstream state school, which is based on the principles of raising the lower ability children up to the median. It’s all-inclusive, so you can’t exclude children if they’re badly behaved or have special needs or that kind of thing. That didn’t work from our point of view. Our children didn’t take well to having chairs thrown at them and teachers not turning up.

I was in Copenhagen a while ago and I saw two or three kids have an impromptu running race on the pavement and one of the kids won and did an American-football-style celebration. His mother grabbed him by the arm and scolded him for that.

My son’s class did a production of Treasure Island. The teachers rotated the class so that in every scene someone different played Long John Silver or Jack Hawkins or whatever. It made absolute nonsense of any sense of drama or narrative. But again, it was this idea: Everyone should have their turn. Everyone should be treated equally, rather than celebrate one student who was a great singer or actor.

In the same interview, Booth explained why the Scandinavian model could never be implemented in America:

If you want an incredibly equal, socially cohesive society, you definitely lose something by way of individuality, eccentricity, diversity. Often I’m asked, “Could the Nordic template be applied to Britain or America?” And the answer is no. You can’t just hope that people will suddenly become conformist and driven by equality. It doesn’t work that way.

4. Denmark and Sweden have their own social problems

Secular liberals in the United States and Canada are apt to regard Denmark and Sweden as a kind of paradise on earth. Why, they wonder aloud, can’t America be more like Scandinavia?

Guardian reporter Michael Booth painted a very different picture of the Scandinavian countries from the rosy picture we’ve been accustomed to hearing about, in a colorfully worded article titled, Dark lands: the grim truth behind the ‘Scandinavian miracle’ (January 27, 2014).

(a) Something rotten in the state of Denmark?

Here’s what Booth had to say about Denmark, in his report:

Take the Danes, for instance. True, they claim to be the happiest people in the world, but why no mention of the fact they are second only to Iceland when it comes to consuming anti-depressants? …

Why do the Danes score so highly on international happiness surveys? Well, they do have high levels of trust and social cohesion, and do very nicely from industrial pork products, but according to the OECD they also work fewer hours per year than most of the rest of the world. As a result, productivity is worryingly sluggish. How can they afford all those expensively foraged meals and hand-knitted woollens? Simple, the Danes also have the highest level of private debt in the world (four times as much as the Italians, to put it into context; enough to warrant a warning from the IMF), while more than half of them admit to using the black market to obtain goods and services.

Presumably the correlative of this is that Denmark has the best public services? According to the OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment rankings (Pisa), Denmark’s schools lag behind even the UK’s. Its health service is buckling too… According to the World Cancer Research Fund, the Danes have the highest cancer rates on the planet...

Most seriously of all, economic equality – which many believe is the foundation of societal success – is decreasing. According to a report in Politiken this month, the proportion of people below the poverty line has doubled over the last decade. Denmark is becoming a nation divided, essentially, between the places which have a branch of Sticks’n’Sushi (Copenhagen) and the rest. Denmark’s provinces have become a social dumping ground for non-western immigrants, the elderly, the unemployed and the unemployable who live alongside Denmark’s 22m intensively farmed pigs, raised 10 to a pen and pumped full of antibiotics (the pigs, that is).

There’s more. It turns out that one-fifth of Danish adults don’t work and live exclusively on public benefits.

(b) How Sweden’s “nanny state” stifles people’s souls

Booth was similarly unsparing in his depiction of Sweden, in his report:

Anything I say about the Swedes will pale in comparison to their own excoriating self-image. A few years ago, the Swedish Institute of Public Opinion Research asked young Swedes to describe their compatriots. The top eight adjectives they chose were: envious, stiff, industrious, nature loving, quiet, honest, dishonest, xenophobic.

Effectively a one-party state – albeit supported by a couple of shadowy industrialist families – for much of the 20th century, “neutral” Sweden (one of the world largest arms exporters) continues to thrive economically thanks to its distinctive brand of totalitarian modernism, which curbs freedoms, suppresses dissent in the name of consensus, and seems hell-bent on severing the bonds between wife and husband, children and parents, and elderly on their children. Think of it as the China of the north.

Youth unemployment is higher than the UK’s and higher than the EU average; integration is an ongoing challenge; and as with Norway and Denmark, the Swedish right is on the rise…

Ask the Finns and they will tell you that Swedish ultra-feminism has emasculated their men, but they will struggle to drown their sorrows. Their state-run alcohol monopoly stores, the dreaded Systembolaget, were described by Susan Sontag as “part funeral parlour, part back-room abortionist”.

The myriad successes of the Nordic countries are no miracle, they were born of a combination of Lutheran modesty, peasant parsimony, geographical determinism and ruthless pragmatism... These societies function well for those who conform to the collective median, but they aren’t much fun for tall poppies. Schools rein in higher achievers for the sake of the less gifted; “elite” is a dirty word; displays of success, ambition or wealth are frowned upon.

I should mention in passing that not only is the illegitimacy rate in Sweden very high (54%, compared to 51% in Denmark, 55% in Norway and 41% in the U.S.A.), but less than 50% of all Swedes currently agree with the proposition that children need a father and a mother to grow up happily. Not a healthy sign. Sadly, America appears to be following suit: 58% of American adults now say that having a baby outside of marriage is morally acceptable.

5. Sweden also has a shocking record of violating individual liberties

As we have seen, even the Scandinavian countries have their share of social problems. Nevertheless, some readers might be inclined to argue that their problems are not as bad as those which afflict the Anglo-Saxon countries – and especially the United States. America does, however, enjoy one great advantage over Sweden: it is still a free country. Sweden is not.

Freedom of Speech is being steadily eroded, in the name of protecting people from “hate speech”

In a 2014 blog article titled, Freedom Of Speech Is Dying In Sweden, Finnish blogger Johannes Joukahainen paints a grim picture of freedom of speech laws in Sweden:

The key difference in the freedom of speech or expression between the United States and Sweden (as well as many other European countries) is that in the US, regulation of the freedom of speech is very lax when compared to continental European legal systems. While the freedom of speech is not absolute in the United States’ legal system, it is much closer to being almost completely unrestricted than in Europe. European legal systems generally have much tighter laws regarding “incitement to hatred” and “hate speech,” to the extent that in recent years they have been used to silence dissenting opinions all across Europe.

The silencing of opposing views via legal norms is nowhere more obvious than in Sweden, where several laws have been passed to make it incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to legally argue against “special groups” within the society. A law passed in 2002 (2002:800) notably mentions that “expressing disrespect against groups of people with reference to race, color, national origin, ethnicity, confession of faith or sexual origin” can be sentenced to prison for a time of up to four years for inciting hatred.

The word “disrespect” (“missaktning”) is especially problematic, as the term fairly ambiguous. The law was most notably used to sentence a pastor (Åke Green) for comments against homosexuality during a sermon. The Supreme Court later overturned the conviction, as it did not comply with the European Convention of Human Rights, and hence the conviction would have most likely not have been upheld in the European Court.

The wrong kind of opinions can get you ostracized, according to a report by Singaporean doctoral research student Sadhvi Sharma (Sweden is no haven of liberty, Spiked.com, April 2, 2014):

Sweden is typically depicted as a liberal paradise, an evolved and open-minded society where tolerance and equality define public life… This is certainly what I was led to believe when I moved here six months ago.

But take a closer look at Swedish society and a different picture emerges…

On an anecdotal level, I have found that alongside the legal proscription of hate speech, there is also a set of informal rules about what you can and can’t say – the ‘you can’t say that’ moments of Swedish liberal social and cultural life.

You don’t have to be a racist or a homophobe to be shunned; you just have to voice the ‘wrong’ kind of opinions. For instance, you cannot be opposed to gay marriage, or express support for the Swedish Democrats (a far-right party equivalent to the British National Party, but with actual representatives in parliament), without being virtually excommunicated. And if you dare express scepticism about climate change, be prepared for social wrath. Your decency and your moral standing are judged by whether you hold the ‘correct’ views on feminism, on homosexuality, on race, on the environment, on the Israel-Palestine conflict. ‘Incorrect’ positions will see you cast out.

How the Swedish state comes between parents and their children: the sad case of Domenic Johansson

The Swedish state, in its infinite arrogance, behaves as if it were the sole arbiter of children’s rights, and as if parents had to beg the government for the right to be the legal guardians of their own children. The Swedish government has even abducted children from their parents, for the sole “crime” of daring to homeschool them – at a time when it was legal! Domenic Johansson was one of these children. Seven years ago, he was abducted from his parents, Christer and Annie, just as they were about to board a plane for India. Bob Unruh takes up the story for World News Daily:

When the family tried to leave Sweden in 2009 for India, the mother’s homeland, armed police stormed the plane and abducted young Domenic without a warrant or court order. Social services workers claimed he had some cavities in his baby teeth.

Numerous experts and attorneys have described the incident as a brazen example of “state-napping.”

When one court decision was released in Sweden in favor of the parents, government officials kept the child in custody until they were able to get it reversed.

The frustration at one point prompted Christer to take his son during a brief visit and not return him to social workers, resulting in a prison sentence for the father.

Swedish courts eventually terminated the family by severing the parental rights permanently.

Legal experts from around the world have told WND that the pretexts cited to seize Domenic do not stand up to scrutiny, especially because homeschooling was legal in Sweden at the time, and the right to homeschool is guaranteed under multiple human rights treaties.

Domenic Johansson is not alone. WND reports that dozens of families have already fled abroad, including Jonas Himmelstrand, the chief of the Swedish Homeschooling Association, ROHUS, who fled to Finland with his wife and children.

Since then, the Johanssons’ plight has gotten even worse, according to a report on OneNewsNow.com by Michael Haverluck:

Indefinitely extending homeschooler Domenic Johansson’s prohibition from being able to his parents over the past five years, the Swedish Supreme Court rejected what could possibly be his family’s last appeal to reunite with him.

After being taken away from his parents, Christer and Annie Johansson, seven years ago when he was seven years old — and not being allowed to see them at all over the past five years — the homeschool boy, who is now 14, will likely not see his parents again … at least until he’s an adult.

The decision has all but diminished the Johansson’s last glimmer of hope of seeing their son again, as they can now possibly appeal to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), but it has a dismal record when it comes to rulings concerning claims made by homeschoolers.

There is an old saying: “Be careful what you wish for. You just might get what you want.” There are many social liberals who would like to see North America become more like Scandinavia. If that happens – as appears more and more likely, based on current election trends – then we can expect to see America develop into a highly intolerant country where political correctness reigns supreme and where people’s opinions are governed by “group-think.” In such a country, independence of thought will not be prized, and achievement will no longer be valued. The cult of mediocrity will reign. And yes, many people will be “content,” because their government will tell them that they are safe. But contentment is a pale, anemic thing, when compared to the pure and untrammeled joy that comes with freedom, friendship and love of life. The “Scandinavian solution” leads to a society lacking in vitality. If there is a secret to happiness, Latin America sounds like a better place to look for it.

Comments
H'mm: Passing by, noticed the toxic side track and how the lack of balance in the face of a responsible remark or two by VJT and News inadvertently reveals thoughts and intents. Christendom has its fair share of sins across 2000 years, but recognises them as such and as to be turned from; that is, the system soberly addresses finite, fallible, fallen and struggling people with hope for repentance, renewal and reformation . . . which are severe but all too needed blessings. It is always instructive to ask, what grounds that sense of moral responsibility above and beyond might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth' etc and what happens when morality is ceded to those who adhere to systems of thought -- such as evolutionary materialism -- that inevitably end in such amorality and radical relativism. In a nutshell, it predictably does not end well, and we would be well advised to bear such in mind. KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2016
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Full Truth and Reconciliation Commission report to be published by McGill-Queen's University Press CBC, December 10, 2015 The Truth and Reconciliation Commission was established in 2008, with a mandate to investigate and report on what happened in Indian Residential Schools. Starting in the 1870s and closing in 1996, over 150,000 First Nations, Inuit and Métis children were sent to residential schools across the country, where they were banned from using their own languages and often subjected to physical and sexual abuse.
Two primary objectives of the residential school system were to remove and isolate children from the influence of their homes, families, traditions and cultures, and to assimilate them into the dominant culture. These objectives were based on the assumption Aboriginal cultures and spiritual beliefs were inferior and unequal. Indeed, some sought, as it was infamously said, “to kill the Indian in the child.” Today, we recognize that this policy of assimilation was wrong, has caused great harm, and has no place in our country. Prime Minister Stephen Harper, official apology, June 11, 2008
See also: Anglican Church of Canada: Truth and Reconciliationrhampton7
April 16, 2016
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News: "Indiana Effigy at 84: There was no forced conversion in Canada, so far as I know, if Robert means that people were forced at gunpoint or something." What would you call it then? Children removed from the family against the parents' will. Forced to be taught by priests and nuns against their wills. Punished if they speak their native language or talk about their family beliefs. Thousands of children died in their "care". I would call that forced conversion. Or child abuse.Indiana Effigy
April 16, 2016
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Indiana Effigy at 84: There was no forced conversion in Canada, so far as I know, if Robert means that people were forced at gunpoint or something. The problem was that native religions, as practised at the time of the European migrations, ceased to be tenable. The incoming culture was well-organized and mostly Christian, so adaptation to modern life meant adaptation to Christianity. Many native communities are somewhat syncretistic about it to this day. The race grievance industry holds that Europeans destroyed native culture. But the trouble is, steel age cultures always have that effect on stone age cultures. Languages spoken by hundreds of millions have that effect on languages spoken by a few thousand. Slavery, massacres, and such largely didn't happen here but everything that must necessarily happen did. The biggest problem for native people is that it is hard for them to get free of the conditions imposed on them by those who want them to keep their traditional culture. If I was expected to live the way people did in seventh century Ireland, I'd be in as big a fix as they are. Just one person's view (but I went to school with native kids and my birth province is approaching half native. ).- d.News
April 16, 2016
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Hi VJT, I noted that none of your links (unless I missed it) mentioned the largest forced conversion that occurred in Canada well into the 1960s. For several decades native children were removed from their parents and raised in residential schools. This was done with the willing and active participation of the church. Thousands and thousands of children were forced to learn Christianity and punished if they spoke their native language. The result was several generations of natives who did not fit in with their ancestral culture and were not accepted in the Canadian culture.Indiana Effigy
April 16, 2016
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Hi Indiana Effigy, The Bible does not support forced conversions. Mark 6:10-11: And He [Jesus] said to them [his apostles], "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." 1 Tim 5:22: "Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin." And here's what the 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia says: "Credere voluntatis est, to believe depends upon the free will, says St. Thomas (II-II:10:8), and the minister of baptism, before administering the sacrament, is obliged to ask the question, 'Wilt thou be baptized'? And only after having received the answer, 'I will', may he proceed with the sacred rite." The history of the Catholic Church regarding forced conversions is far from perfect, however, as this article shows. On the history of Canadian natives and how some of them came to embrace Christianity, see here and here and here.vjtorley
April 16, 2016
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Ellazimm: "Robert Byers’ attention is elsewhere." Did he see an image of JC in his grilled cheese sandwich again?Indiana Effigy
April 11, 2016
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Robert Byers' attention is elsewhere. Too bad, it would be interesting to see how he responded to our queries.ellazimm
April 11, 2016
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I am interested in Robert's opinion on the following questions. 1) were natives in Canada forcibly converted to Christianity in huge numbers? 2) does the bible condone or encourage forced conversion? 3) does Robert condone or encourage forced conversion?Indiana Effigy
April 10, 2016
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Robert #81
People who fish in the sea never claim the sea as theit territory. its meaningless when one moves over the land only for some resource.
Nations do have territorial waters though which are theirs to control. Have you looked at the structures at Mesa Verde? They were built the way they were to protect against attack. From other native American tribes. As for the rest . . . You can arbitrary declare that some other group of people don't share your method of land distribution and then say it's fair to push them out. By introducing European-style land ownership our ancestors took away the native americans hunting and fishing grounds. The food was taken out of their mouths. How is that moral? By your logic all hunter-gatherer tribes can be displaced and the sources of their livelihood taken away. In England most villages had common land that was available for all the locals to use for their animals. That was eventually changed but it took legislation, not just someone coming in and claiming the right to occupy it. Private land ownership is a fairly recent innovation by historical standards. You should take some time to study it. On another thread you didn't seem to really understand the development of math and science . . . perhaps lots of historical reading is in order.ellazimm
April 9, 2016
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Robert, let me see if I understand your position. Because Indians did not have the same concept of land ownership as Europeans did, it was OK to displace them from land they had lived on for 10,000 years. Given that logic, it would be completely legal for a country that only allows for state ownership of land to take land in another country as long as it is privately owned. You do realize that there was a large population of natives when the Europeans first arrived. They had their own civilization, they farmed, they fished. They had their own wars. The way that the natives were (and are) treated in Canada was deplorable. Forced from their lands and forcibly converted to Christianity.Indiana Effigy
April 9, 2016
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ellazimm I said it minor cases in minor areas there was a actual claim for land. Yet even there it meant very little. in fact they built wherever they wanted. Indians never fought for land but sometimes hunting areas but only for hunting. not real estate. Anybody in the world had the right to settle and occupy N America. it was free land. Still in nature as John locke would say. People who fish in the sea never claim the sea as theit territory. its meaningless when one moves over the land only for some resource. So yes we had every right to occupy and take possession of the land. Then contracts later.Robert Byers
April 9, 2016
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IE, Pardon but I need to be direct on the rhetorical effect of how you spoke, given that my context is that there is a serious problem of what dares not be said on this matter. . The name for that tactic is the mixed message. Say your point then cover it with a softening contrary; the in group chuckle and how dare you object to the steel fist, it is in a velvet glove. What counts is the hard point, just like with the deliberate "freudian slip." I suggest, instead, deal with the issue: at no point have I said or suggested that people who differ with me are therefore nihilistic. Instead I took time to identify a specific longstanding worldview that haunts our civilisation which is indeed nhilistic. Demonstrably so, as was shown in outline. It is part of the ongoing falling apart of our civilisation that has to be recognised and rolled back. I still think our civilisation is worth fighting for, given the alternatives. Or have you taken a moment to look at the mini steel-covered dungeon cells in the hot desert ground used to imprison Yazidi women captured and turned into sex slaves by ISIS? http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/12/15/photos-dungeons-islamic-state-uses-yazidi-sex-slaves/ That is what we are dealing with. KF PS: Notice, you have yet to engage the substantial issue adequately. I suggest you would be well advised to shift tone.kairosfocus
April 9, 2016
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IE: "Again,falsely declaring those who disagree with you to be nihilist radicals is not encouraging open and honest discussion."... I hope that you take this correction in the positive manner that I intend it. KF: Your attempt to trivialise the substantial matter, personalise and attack the man instead of addressing the issue come straight out of Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals." Obviously you are incapable of having a civil discussion with someone who disagrees with you without resorting to personal attacks. Life is far too short to continue to attempt to have a discussion with someone with a pathology such as yours. From now on I will simply scroll past any of your comments, and not respond to any comments you make towards me. I wish you well, but your manner of discourse is infantile and needs significant improvement. IE.Indiana Effigy
April 9, 2016
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IE, Pardon but the issue is major media, punditry and statesmen, not some random anonymous internet objector. Major strategic framework documents for a 100 year civilisation-/ settlement- jihad global subjugation strategy were recovered by policing agencies; one was actually part of a major terrorism funding trial. They are material to understanding geostrategic issues for our time. In a sane world, they would be anchor points for public discussion of the IslamIST threat and strategy. Instead, they are seldom if ever mentioned or referred to in such deliberations or public discussions. Red warning flag on our civilisation's suicidal mentality. Your attempt to trivialise the substantial matter, personalise and attack the man instead of addressing the issue come straight out of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. Talk about a Red-Green, Black Flag Army alliance of ruin. (Do you know what the Black Flag Army Hadith says, and how it relates to what is going on on the ground? The linked Gharqad tree Hadith? What a hadith is, and how these relate to the way IslamISTS and other Muslims understand and apply the Quran? The 318th anniversary less one day that Sept 11 2001 marked? Why there is a constellation in the skies named after a Polish king, or actually his shield? What historically anchored message that sent to the IslamISTS and how that ties in with the two Hadiths? If you cannot instantly recognise these things, you lack key background, and reflect what has NOT been properly discussed in major media for 15 years.) Did you even take five minutes to Google the titles of the documents, and then a couple of hours to read, ponder and reflect? Not likely, given your rhetorical reaction. A little more than points scoring rhetoric and let's deride those ID-iots is on the table, I am afraid. As for a material slice of the current refugees, it seems you did not notice that this includes the cells involved in the recent attacks in Paris and Brussels. I suggest you also go look up the history of the Germanic tribal settlements in the Roman Empire and its consequences. The history of the Americas in the past 500 years also has a few pointers, as even descendants of Amerindians who identify with our civilisation point out. The real question is, do we have a civilisation worth defending? If so, appropriate measures are indicated, and it would be sensible to look to historic solutions that worked for dealing with conflicts involving ruthless, genocidal expansionists and those fleeing their depredations. Ignoring the fact that a couple of squadrons of A10's properly applied early would have seen off ISIS and certainly would have blocked the Iraq invasion by same -- compare the unmolested convoys of technicos invading Iraq with the devastation of Hussein's convoys in 1991 -- a stabilising intervention and backed rollback would have done wonders. Refugees should be accommodated close to point of origin and resettled as soon as possible. Contrast the Jews of the ME with the Palestinian Arabs kept in refugee camps to create a running sore to see the point. Contrast any number of other refugee resettlements in Europe and Asia in the aftermath of WW2. As for nihilist radicals, FYI, it is a long settled matter that evolutionary materialism is inherently amoral and radically relativist leading to destabilisation of law, morality, a sense of comity in communities and lends itself to power hungry factions and chaos then breakdown and tyranny. Above at 11, I clipped Plato on this c 360 BC. (Something you studiously ignored.) Indeed, it goes further, evolutionary materialism radically undermines the basis for understanding that we are responsibly free and rational, is in fact self-falsifying by way of self referential incoherence on the reasoning, knowing mind and so also opens the door to nihilistic manipulation and marches of absurd folly rooted in the utterly ill-advised perception that might and manipulation make right, truth and wisdom etc. Examples, sadly, are increasingly legion all around us. That is the context in which our civilisation is becoming de-moralised, fatally undermining the goodwill, honour, sense of our civilisation being worth facing long odds to defend and heart-deep history anchored commitment that are needed for long term survival. I suspect that decadence already explains a good slice of the demographic collapse that is already in progress. No wonder the vultures are visibly circling and more are coming from afar. Time to wake up before it is fatally too late. KFkairosfocus
April 9, 2016
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mohammadnursyamsu #75
The USA is more focused on happiness, while Europe, and most of the rest of the world, is more focused on doing their “best”.
Is that why the murder rate and the rate of incarceration are so much higher in America?
The emotional development of Europeans is generally very infantile, like most Americans wouldn’t believe.
Take a look at this chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate You can rearrange it by the different columns. If you pick Homicides, descending you'll find the USA much higher than any European country. If you pick Suicides, descending you'll find the USA higher than any other country. Take a look at this chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate You can also arrange this one by column. Try (murder) Rate, descending. The USA pops in at 115, higher than all European countries except Lithuania and Russia. Arrange by Count, descending. The USA pops in between Russia and China for the number of people murdered Russia's murder rate is much higher, it's not a nice place. But China's rate is small, it's only because the population is so big that the number of murders is close to the USA. I live in the UK. For the listed year there were less than 700 murders in the UK, for the USA there were over 12,000. Notice too (on the smaller chart) that the murder rates in the Americas and Africa are more than double that of the world as a whole. And Europe, Asia and Oceania are all about 3 murders per 100,000 population. It's the Western Hemisphere and Africa that pull up the world average. I lived in America for the first 39 years of my life, I'll never be moving back. The fact that Donald Trump is taken seriously by anyone is not even funny, it's scary.ellazimm
April 8, 2016
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Robert #74 You do realise that the Native Americans used to fight amongst themselves a lot for territory? And that some tribes (like the Anasazi a while ago and the Pueblo more recently) built permanent structures which can still be seen. Mesa Verde in Colorado is one of the most famous sites. And you do know that some tribes did fight against the incursions by white people? It seems your attitude is: our style of life was 'better' so we get to push them out. Nice.ellazimm
April 8, 2016
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The USA is more focused on happiness, while Europe, and most of the rest of the world, is more focused on doing their "best". The emotional development of Europeans is generally very infantile, like most Americans wouldn't believe.mohammadnursyamsu
April 8, 2016
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IE There were never native americans. They were very independent Indian tribes(called nations by europeans). they did not own n America. in fact they owned nothing as they had no contracts between each other about land ownership. It was free land for everyone. Possibly a valley was claimed but in reality land meant nothing to such tiny populations. no more then people claim the sea for ourselves. They moved about. they owned nothing or little. They had no right to keep out any people group on earth. Europeans were just more people groups coming from the east. The brit or fRench colonists never immigrated to other mens homes. it was free land. In fact in cases where europeans bought land it was an absurdity to iNdians. It wasn't theirs to sell. N america was 99% empty wilderness. so Brits etc never immigrated but only settled a wilderness no different then if no one was here at all. S o my ancestors were never immigrants to N america as it never existed to immigrate to. All my links immigrated to A british possession or a canadian possession. A real civilization and real moral claim to land.Robert Byers
April 8, 2016
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KF: "The silencing and/or marginalisation of truth on these matters is a sadly telling sign." Whenever someone disagrees with you, or has a differing viewpoint, they are dismissed as silencing and/or marginalizing the truth. Do you never admit that the truth may lie somewhere between the two views? Or maybe that both views are wrong? This approach does not encourage open and honest discussion. "I have no doubt on what happened in Paris and Brussels etc that a material slice of the current refugees are illegal combattants involved in a ruthless war." What is a material slice? 0.01%? 1%? 5%? There is no doubt that a very small percentage of refugees are not here as legitimate refugees. As has been the case with all waves of immigration and refugees since the beginning of time. Should we ban all immigration and refugees because of it? Of course not. For the most part, immigration and the acceptance of refugees is a net benefit to the country accepting them. It certainly introduces challenges, but that is no reason to refuse them entry. "Especially when at the same time various nihilist radicals are pushing agendas that undermine the committed goodwill that is the foundation of long term national survival." Again,falsely declaring those who disagree with you to be nihilist radicals is not encouraging open and honest discussion. You often have very good ideas and arguments, but your way of presenting them in a civil fashion could use serious improvement. I hope that you take this correction in the positive manner that I intend it. I hope that you have a peaceful weekend.Indiana Effigy
April 8, 2016
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EZ, I am not defending RB, who has his own serious problems that led to his banning . . . he came back in the context of an amnesty. Obviously, many contributed to where we are today -- and I still face the local stuff so I will only v selectively comment. Pivotally, there is a group of 800 lb gorillas tearing up the room. That is my focus, it is why an intended brief comment above is longer than I thought initially it would be. Later. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2016
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KF #70 I was concerned that Robert was exhibiting a rather blatant double standard. I'll be interested to see what he says. Aren't you concerned that he doesn't think anyone outside of the 'Anglo-American' group contributed anything to civilisation or science?ellazimm
April 8, 2016
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EZ, it is not so simple, though much wrong was done in the past and we now have to reckon with both settled populations and a new history and geostrategic balance. Many Canadians and Americans etc will be descendants of Amerindians, French and English, escaped slaves etc plus later immigrants. There was no existing Canada or US or Mexico etc at original settlement and there is a dense matrix of legitimate settlement, payment, reasonable relationships, crime, murder, war, invasion, theft by force and fraud, dispossession and more. Some compensation is reasonable but there is a past beyond undoing which is also connected to global stability and responsible order. At the same time history of invasions by immigration and settlement gives sober warning on what can happen with hostile and bellicose aliens and enclaves. Especially in a world where the fall of Rome from within and without is a material example as is the first wave of Islam-IST expansionism by Jihad and the resulting 1400 year World War Zero. There is no doubt that there is a Muslim Brotherhood The Project 100 year global conquest plan of 1982, and likely an Iranian version that has not been captured. Under such, the explanatory memorandum captured in Virginia shows a settlement-jihad, civilisation jihad process and strategy that is of patently hostile intent. In the case of settled immigrants and citizens implicated in that campaign, such involvement constitutes commitment to grand-scale treason or enabling of such. I have no doubt on what happened in Paris and Brussels etc that a material slice of the current refugees are illegal combattants involved in a ruthless war. One that in a world of potential biological and nuclear terrorism should not be underestimated. Satchel, demolition nukes are real, and suitcase nukes are very plausible given simply the reality of nuclear artillery shells. That has to be balanced with needs of legitimate refugees and what would be best for such . . . including the red flag warning sign of severe under-representation of Christians targetted for genocide in the current waves and the problems with other minorities. All this is multiplied by the attitude of many to the majority of the Jewish population of Israel, who descend from 800,000 refugees displaced from the Middle East due to Islamist and Arab nationalist hostility such that the Palestinian Arab (etc) refugee problem is half of a story. The silencing and/or marginalisation of truth on these matters is a sadly telling sign. Until we face the overall truth together, no sound solution is possible and we are sowing the wind to reap a whirlwind. Especially when at the same time various nihilist radicals are pushing agendas that undermine the committed goodwill that is the foundation of long term national survival. The West's ongoing demographic collapse (which is beginning to affect the Caribbean too) is a terrible portent and reflection of civilisational failure. How all of this can be faced, properly understood and soundly addressed I do not know. But, this I know: the cumulative threat is global and existential, with particularly horrific implications for Africa, a by and large poorly governed and ill-defended continent full of militarily relevant resources that evil eyes are watching with geostrategic power lust in mind. I am not optimistic regarding the coming decades. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2016
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Robert #68
The native has the moral right to decide who comes in and gets our stuff.
Foreigners never have a moral claim to another peoples home and wealth. they only have a moral claim and right to demand to be preserved in their natural rights of life and liberty etc.
Does that mean if the native Americans who were living in Canada before the Europeans came over decide you should leave that you would go? When were your ancestors foreigners in North America?ellazimm
April 7, 2016
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IE I don't demonize anyone and you just don't like my conclusions and demonize me. No I don't think anyone should be sent back to Hitler to be killed. that would be evil. It doesn't mean one must allow them immigration however. The native has the moral right to decide who comes in and gets our stuff. Thats why we fought hitler. We enforced boundaries and the moral claims behind boundaries. Foreigners never have a moral claim to another peoples home and wealth. they only have a moral claim and right to demand to be preserved in their natural rights of life and liberty etc. i don't oppose immigration but only a few and not intrisive. it could accumulate but only if its not intrusive. its not that way today in north america. Read my posts again carefully if you say you live in integrity and intelligence. I don;t curse you because I presume you mean well. I'm a Christian and a Canadian and me. You won't intimidate me in my heart. I want to persuade you. Did I ?Robert Byers
April 7, 2016
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Effigy is still here whining....post is not about it so why did you start talking about homosexual "marriage" ? Are you insecure about it? Does it bother you that people don't accept such nonsense? Kairos " he who would rob me of means of daily bread would rob me of my life; he who would steal my conscience would rob and damn — proper sense — my soul." That's a beautiful quote! Left wing extremists usurped and use legislative power to enforce the new morality based on shallow emotions and what the loudest whining activist want at the moment. They can make us conform but nobody believes in it including them. That's why people like Effigy above spontaneously start babbling about it when nobody is asking. It's show of insecurity. It seems to bother them more than us so they want to prop their weak arguments. "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." --Arnold J. Toynbee (historian)Eugen
April 7, 2016
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KF: "IE, I will simply say that those who do not see the harm provided by the corruption of marriage and of law to aid and abet in that process [I have already linked Girgis et al for those willing to ponder], will have to feel the harm for it to register. There has to be harm for someone to register it. Harming someones delicate sensibilities is not justification for preventing a segment of society from participating in something that the rest of us can. Putting limitations on a persons ability to discriminate against someone is not harmful. "There is more than enough evidence elsewhere, and this is not a main subject of this blog or even of this thread. KF" Yet you have failed to provide any tangible evidence. But I do agree that this is off topic. I will not comment on it further in this thread.Indiana Effigy
April 7, 2016
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IE, I will simply say that those who do not see the harm provided by the corruption of marriage and of law to aid and abet in that process [I have already linked Girgis et al for those willing to ponder], will have to feel the harm for it to register. There is more than enough evidence elsewhere, and this is not a main subject of this blog or even of this thread. KFkairosfocus
April 7, 2016
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KF, your insistence on holding to your opposition to SSM in spite of the complete lack of evidence of any harm to society or individuals within it is duly noted.Indiana Effigy
April 7, 2016
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IE, this is the fire that is being played with when ordinary people of decent conscience acting on longstanding, tried and true principle find themselves repeatedly slandered and subjected to persecution and even criminalisation under false colour of law in a topsy turvy nihilistic world that imposes Plato's cave light is darkness and darkness light shadow shows:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Let me keep going:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .
But then, it seems we will -- yet again -- refuse to learn from anything short of running headlong off a cliff, in mass. Just remember, for a nation to be viable enough of the decent have to be willing to stand in the face of long odds and if necessary die for it. Our civilisation is fast using up its legacy of that sort of goodwill. Ask the ghosts of those who saw Rome fall apart, and their descendants for hundreds of years, whether the price of decadence was worth it. Or, just Read Boethius' The Consolation of Philosophy: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14328/14328-h/14328-h.htm KF PS: Ask yourself what it means that no one will buy or sell, save he who takes the Mark . . .kairosfocus
April 7, 2016
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