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God as a necessary, maximally great, endless being vs. the challenge to an actual infinity

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In a recent thread, the Kalam Cosmological argument family was challenged on the issue: can an actual infinity exist? If not (presumably due to Hilbert’s Hotel-like absurdities), then God could not be an infinite being as such is impossible of being.

A thread of discussion developed, and I thought a summary intervention may be helpful. On further thought, perhaps it should be headlined:

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KF, 12: >> I think several themes are worth highlighting.

It can be discussed that non-being, true nothingness cannot be a causal source. Were there ever utter nothing, such would therefore forever obtain. There would be no world.But, manifestly, there is a world.

So, we must ponder the logic of being, at least in a nutshell.

Candidates to being may be such that core characteristics central to identity stand in mutual contradiction such as those of a square circle. Such are impossible of being. And, we see principles of distinct identity necessarily embedded from the outset, especially that truths must be all so together so X and Y where Y = ~ X is not a possible state of affairs. If something could exist in a possible world were it actualised as a state of affairs, it is a possible being.

Of these, some Z can be in at least one possible world Wi, but not in another “neighbouring” one, Wj — contingent beings. The difference Wi – Wj will contain some unmet on-off enabling circumstance for Z . . . a necessary causal condition or factor for Z, say C. If Z is a fire, it requires heat, fuel, oxidiser and an uninterfered-with combustion chain reaction (cf. how Halon extinguishers work).

By contrast, we can see a being N that has no dependence on any such C, which will be in any and all possible worlds. That is, N is a necessary being and will be part of the common framework for any world W to exist. For example, distinct identity (A vs ~A) entails that two-ness and so also the endless set of naturals, must exist. [Beyond which lie the transfinites and the surreals as illustrated.] And, without necessary causal factors C, such has no beginning or end. Given that a world exists, at least one being N must be necessary. (Theists, classically hold that things like numbers are eternally contemplated by God, for instance.)

Any given case Ni is eternal, causeless, framework for any possible world, enabling and structuring it in some way. Notice, eternality not infinity, has been asserted, on the strength that for some W to be, some N must be as key to its framework. We readily see this for two-ness etc.

Such is strange to our ears, maybe, but that is a fault of our education not the logic.

Now too, our world is one of finite stage causal succession as we can see from succession of generations. But it is dubious for such to have existed to the infinitely — endlessly — remote past, as to succeed from some stage s_k to s_k+1, s_k+2 etc is equivalent to a counting succession 0,1,2 . . . which succeeds without limit but in an instance will be such that some later s_p to s_p+1, s_p+2 etc can again be matched 1:1 with 0,1,2 . . . thus showing that a transfinite span, credibly, cannot be traversed in finite-stage successive, cumulative steps. Thus if we are at a now, no S_k is transfinitely remote, even beyond say a big bang at 13.8 BYA. Our world W_a is credibly not some Ni, and has a beginning. It has a cause, a capable, sufficient one.

Where, we exist therein as responsibly and rationally free, morally governed creatures. This constrains the N_a that is at the world-root. For, post Hume et al, only at that level can the IS-OUGHT gap be soundly bridged. And we all know that after centuries of debate, only one serious candidate stands — just put up a viable alternative if you think you can. Good luck with that: ______ (Predictably, a fail.)

This is: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature.

But, what about, God is infinite?

I suggest, this first means that God is not externally limited or weakened so that he can be defeated or utterly frustrated in his purposes. Which, is among other things a way of saying that God is not evil, that being the privation, frustration or perversion of good capabilities out of their proper end.

God is also eternal and indestructible, as he has no dependence on external, on/off enabling causal factors. Thus, his being is without beginning or end, endless. This, being a characteristic of necessary being, which is required once a world is.

So, I think we need to reflect on what sense is meant when it is suggested that an actual infinity is impossible of being, and what are its strengths and limitations. For sure, an endless past of finite stage causal succession seems impossible and a physical, materially based infinite quantity is also dubious. But, the transfinite set of natural numbers and beyond the surreals great and small all seem necessary — framework to any world. Which in turn suggests mind capable of such a contemplation.

And more.>>

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Food for thought. END

Comments
KF, The answer to my question would be some subset of {1, 2, 3, 4, 5}, the set of symbols I used to enumerate my steps. If you don't know which steps are problematic, then that's perfectly fine, just say so. Or, if you think some steps are definitely ok while others are dubious, you could specify which.daveS
December 23, 2017
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Ds, that's also how many times you passed over your answer, which pivots as you know on there being no neighbouring finite v that increments directly to w. As stated several times, w is a successor to the naturals, where endlessness captured by the ellipsis is pivotal and is a structural part of the set. It is therefore recognised that endless countability is a new type of quantity that is the order type of the naturals, N. This is what then feeds the point I have repeatedly highlighted now and before, that any particular finite k, however large will have successors k+1, k+2 etc which means you could put K on in correspondence with 0,1,2 . . . thus you cannot exhaust the endlessness in counting by finite successive stages. Which is where the problem with an infinite token passing comes in. For, only cases that have had the token or just got it count. So, if there were an infinite chain, the transfinite would have to be traversed stepwise to reach n-1, n, the now terminus. And, this also requires transfinitely remote members to have had and passed the token. But as such a case P does not have a strong enough means to reach n, there cannot have been a transfinite p. All of this has been repeatedly explained but studiously glided over, by your count four times. Your move may be rhetorically clever but in the end it shows that you do not have a means of doing more than suggesting that at any given stage the transfinite token pass has already happened. That is little more than begging the question at stake. KFkairosfocus
December 23, 2017
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Ok. I've asked the same question four times---I guess I'll move on now.daveS
December 23, 2017
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DS, yes 124 is before 128. In short the problem was anticipated. When you put it up notwithstanding, I pointed to the solution again. KFkairosfocus
December 22, 2017
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KF, #124 was written before my #128! I'm asking what the problem with that argument is. I've even numbered the steps for your convenience in #152. Which of the 5 listed steps is/are incorrect??daveS
December 22, 2017
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Ds, try 146, and before that 124. KFkairosfocus
December 22, 2017
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KF, Could you remind me please, which step is wrong?daveS
December 22, 2017
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DS, done several times. KFkairosfocus
December 22, 2017
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infinitely distant from
This is a confusion. Distance is finite. The question is, daveS, why do you insist on clinging to confusions like this? Andrewasauber
December 22, 2017
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Origenes, Actually infinity - N = infinity is just fine.daveS
December 22, 2017
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KF @148
KF: … your point is sensible but the phrasing may need reworking as subtraction becomes problematic when transfinite sets are involved.
Point taken. I was aware of the fact that (2 x infinity) – infinity = ? is problematic. However, I did not know that infinity – N = infinity when N is a finite number, is also problematic.
KF: Perhaps, it would be helpful to say, a countable finite number n will be a bounded — thus finite — subset to a set that can be matched 1:1 with the counting naturals or some isomorphism thereof.
Indeed, that is all I need to make my argument: N is a subset of infinity or, put differently: For any N goes: infinity > N (infinity is larger than N) It follows that: infinity – N > 0 This is all I need to show that there must be positions in the past that N does not cover.Origenes
December 22, 2017
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KF, But can you point out precisely where my argument in #128 goes wrong? If you are correct about no neighbors in the queue existing, one infinitely remote, and one finitely remote, then there must be a flaw in my argument. I'll repeat it here with a few edits for clarity:
Assume we have an infinite queue with John at its head. Further assume that some members of the queue are at infinite distance from John. In diagrammatic form: ... *__*__*__*__*__*__ John where the asterisks represent members of the queue. Note that the iPad will be traveling left to right. 1) Premise: Any nonempty collection of members of this queue must contain a particular member which is farthest to the right (referring to the above diagram). 2) By assumption, the collection of members of the queue at infinite distance from John is nonempty, therefore there is a particular member, Ishaan, who is farthest to the right among all members infinitely distant from John. ... Ishaan ... * __*__*__ John 3) Clearly Ishaan is not John, so Ishaan has a neighbor immediately in front of him, say Li Qiang. ... Ishaan __ Li Qiang ... * __*__*__ John 4) Because Li Qiang is farther to the right than Ishaan, he is only finitely distant from John. 5) Therefore Ishaan and Li Qiang are neigbors, one of whom is infinitely distant from John, while the other is finitely distant from John.
daveS
December 22, 2017
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DS, the token cannot traverse a transfinite span and will never arrive. This is tied to there being the stipulation that for an actual chain, every member must have either passed the token on or have just now received it. So, if any member p+ is always at finite remove, no member is at transfinite remove. In this context, were there some p at transfinite remove, passing the token onward gives p, p+1, P+2 , etc which sequence can never cumulate at any particular value -- required to pass form one to the next -- to having traversed a transfinite span beyond p. It will never arrive. KFkairosfocus
December 22, 2017
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Origenes, I guess I still don't see how your argument works. Here's what I understand you can say about N: N of course depends on time, and counts down through the nonnegative integers as time elapses and the iPad approaches the end of the line. At some point, N will be 17, and one "transfer" later, N will be 16. At any point, N plus the number of positions "behind" the iPad must sum up to infinity (aleph null, precisely). But since the number of positions behind the iPad is always aleph null, then that means aleph null + N = aleph null. Subtracting N from both sides (which is not problematic) results in aleph null = aleph null - N. This agrees with one of your equations, but I don't know if there are derived the same way. When N = 0, that is when the iPad has finally arrived at the end of the queue, then we have aleph null = aleph null - 0 = aleph null, as expected. I'm not seeing any problem yet.daveS
December 22, 2017
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TGP, pure actuality with no onward potential of course is a perspective on being infinite, i.e. such a thing has exceeded limits. Having onward potential implies boundedness. Applied to number-type sets, the set of counting naturals will exceed any proposed limit, but any finite number, k, will be bounded as we can do k, +1 -> k+1, etc. We also need to recognise a potential infinity as a way of saying that something if pursued would become unbounded, usually to detriment. For instance, a chain of warrant: A as B, as C . . . where the ellipsis implies no limit. This then leads to the challenge, that finite and bounded creatures such as us cannot exhaust such. therefore chains of warrant must be bounded, and bounded without begging the question. Which, is a huge issue. KFkairosfocus
December 22, 2017
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Origines, your point is sensible but the phrasing may need reworking as subtraction becomes problematic when transfinite sets are involved. Perhaps, it would be helpful to say, a countable finite number n will be a bounded -- thus finite -- subset to a set that can be matched 1:1 with the counting naturals or some isomorphism thereof. If n has a fractional part, it will be bound in the same way and the next highest counting number will be bound likewise. That is, you can count on as though you had started at 0,1,2 etc. This implies that no finite specific value can be "next door" to an actual transfinite value. The endlessness is a key structural part of the naturals, and that needs to be reckoned with. KFkairosfocus
December 22, 2017
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Infinity : the total distance between the (infinite) past and the now. N : the variable that represents the distance between the iPad and the now, as it occurred in the past. For each N goes that N is a finite number, per DaveS’ claim (see #143). If the iPad would have visited the entire past (if each member of the infinite chain held the iPad at some point in the past), then we would expect: infinity – N = zero. IOWs the distance between the iPad and the now would at some point have been so large that it spanned infinity. N would ‘cover’ the total distance between the (infinite) past and the now, hence: infinity – N = zero. However, since N is always a finite number and infinity is always larger than any finite number, this cannot be the case: For any N goes: infinity – N = infinity.Origenes
December 22, 2017
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DS, on track record you are doing a for sake of argument. I have long since pointed out here and elsewhere, that endlessness onward is an integral part of the definition of the natural counting numbers. As a result the sense in which w is the order type of the naturals is NOT the same as implying there is some particular finite counting number v such that v, +1 --> w. Instead, w is recognition of a new type of quantity due specifically to the endlessness implied by the ellipsis in the like of: N = {0,1,2 . . . } That onward endlessness is the reason why only a finitely remote p* can succeed stepwise to attain n: { F: . . . p*, P*+1, P*+2 . . . -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 . . . n-1, n} The alternative, with p transfinitely remote from 0: { . . . p, p+1, P+2 . . . -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 . . . n-1, n} is infeasible of actual stepwise completion as the endless span intervenes as was already pointed out. Where, to be a member, every value must have once held the Token T that shifts right in +1 steps, or has just received it. So, if the series has no finitely remote first stage F, then T would have had to have originally been transfinitely remote. Or else "infinite" becomes meaningless. For if EVERY value to the endless left is finitely remote, then there is no transfinitely remote member to the left, there is no transfinite past. Yes, I am aware of claims that every member of N is finite but N is transfinite. With all due respect to the Mathematical thinkers who have so spoken, this is a contradiction in terms, regardless of who says it. What is more correct, is clearly this: that the set N can be indicated as an endless succession, and every particular value we can state or symbolise as say k, will be finite and will be endlessly exceeded by applying +1 increments: k, k+1, k+2 etc. Thus, the endlessness property beyond any given finite is a part of the structure of the naturals. And that is crucial to the consideration here. KFkairosfocus
December 21, 2017
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DaveS @144 Infinity = all the positions between the infinite past and the now. N = the number representing any position that the iPad 'visited' in the past. (note that N is a finite number, because it represents the distance between the iPad and the now, which is, per your own claim, always finite.) For any (finite) position N goes that infinity is larger, which can be expressed as: infinity - N = infinity If your claim would be true, the iPad traveled through the entire past, then we would expect: infinity - N = zero. IOWs N would encapsulate the entire past. But that is obviously not the case.Origenes
December 21, 2017
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Origenes, I don't follow where the "infinity - N" comes from. What does it represent?daveS
December 21, 2017
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DaveS: The iPad’s journey (moving forward in time) has an endpoint, and it’s always a finite distance from that endpoint.
You are saying that the distance between the iPad at any position N in the past and the now is finite. And I take it that you say this because in order for the iPad to reach the now, this distance needs to be finite. There is a problem: If the distance from the iPad to the now is always finite, then we run into a problem with an infinite past. Given that infinity exceeds any finite number, it follows that there is always a part of the past where the iPad has not been. Because the distance between the iPad and the now is always a finite number N, and because there is always an infinity (in the direction of the past) before each N, it cannot be the case that the iPad has been at all positions. For any N goes: infinity - N = infinity In order for your claim to be true the outcome should be ‘zero.’ Therefore, on any position N, the iPad does not cover the infinite past.Origenes
December 21, 2017
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KF,
The scenario of neighbours one finitely remote the next infinitely, does not obtain.
Can you point out specifically the flaw in my argument in #128 which shows it does obtain?daveS
December 21, 2017
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DS 128, I noted that membership in the chain comes from having had or just received the token. If that chain is from the transfinite, there will thus be a transfinitely remote member P, that handed to P+1 etc until 0, 1, 2 . . . n-1, finally n. But the traverse from P to 0 cannot be done in finitely many steps, and there is no particular natural number whose +1 successor is w. That is the order type of the naturals as a whole is w, we cannot count them out. That, I already noted on. The scenario of neighbours one finitely remote the next infinitely, does not obtain. You do not traverse to the transfinite in successive +1 increments. You look at the set as a whole, recognise its endless character then understand this is itself a new type of quantity, and define order type of that set as w. KF PS: If at EVERY stage, the token was finitely removed from n, now, it was NEVER transfinitely removed. PS: Infinite is beyond the finite, endless, or of order type at least that of the natural successive counting numbers. For any counting number k, regardless of how large, we can always use +1 to go to k+1, k+2 etc, which is readily put in 1:1 correspondence with 0,1, 2 etc that is we see endlessness in action, we can always go on stepwise as though we had just begun, we cannot exhaust counting numbers by a "long enough" count. We zoom back out, notice the pattern of endless succession and see the implied new type of quantity, transfiniteness or a countable infinite in this case.kairosfocus
December 21, 2017
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vividbleau, KF and I had used definition 4 on this page in the past. Origenes seems to be using the same one.daveS
December 21, 2017
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daveS re 137 I did not know the definition of “infinite” was up for grabs? What definition are you KF and Origenes using? Vividvividbleau
December 21, 2017
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different definitions of “infinite”
There's no scientific definition of "infinite". It's a fantasy with a label on it. Andrewasauber
December 21, 2017
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tgpeeler, In that case, you and I are using different definitions of "infinite". I believe Origenes, KF, and I are all using the same definition, however.daveS
December 21, 2017
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Geeeeez. It's not this hard daveS. If we take infinite, which I do, to mean pure actuality with no potential, then ANY talk of sequences or regresses is absurd on the face of it. Consider this, an "infinite" regress would have no potential to have more individuals (seconds or causes) but clearly, if we are talking about actual seconds or causes then we can always add one more. Ergo, it is not "infinite." The illustration I used was to posit an infinite regress, point out the implication of such a thing is absurd, and demonstrate that, in fact, there is no such thing as an infinite regress in reality (this universe).tgpeeler
December 21, 2017
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DaveS @134 If X didn't travel back in time, we are not allowed to study its history? Is that a new rule?Origenes
December 21, 2017
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Origenes,
The IPad’s journey backwards in time has no endpoint
It didn't travel back in time. You need to show that not all members of the chain could have held the iPad as it moved forward in time.daveS
December 21, 2017
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